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Did God create the devil to do his dirty work? (Page 2)
Anonymous
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I don't believe in the devil or a hell, so I'd say no :)
Do you believe in any god though?
It depends on your definition of God. I don't necessarily believe in the God in the bible, but I do believe that someone or something brought us to this world
I don’t believe in any parallel power to God, like Satan. Satan and ‘evil’ isn’t a person, it’s a type of behaviour and attitude. No person is evil, only their actions can be. I never worry about Satan or the devil.
if you are to believe the bible and therefore you wouldn't question it satan is a fallen angel. essentially a rogue he fell from heaven. so he/she was not created but CHOSE the wrong path. so in this situation if you choose to believe in the devil it means you choose to believe in the bible which means you'd say that god did not create a devil just like he didn't/doesn't force people to sin
Is the Christian God not omniscient (all knowing)? And omnipotent (all powerful)? He created an angel intentionally knowing he would fall and reek havoc - it's God's plan for the devil to be there.
he is omniscient and omnipotent but it doesn't mean he uses those abilities. I mean being all knowing doesn't necessarily mean bad things can't happen. and being omnipotent means sure he could know and do something about evil but he also gave beings free will which... again this is all if you follow the bible, supersedes his omnipotence... he doesn't create beings with an ultimate fate, that is the free will he instlls
I know it doesn't mean he needs to act on his knowledge or use his power; that was my point. The Devil exists because God wants him to be there.
no the devil exists because god let's him exist. because he has for the most part created a world and let it run based with his hands off... if you believe the bible, aside from the rare exception (noah and the flood, the pestilence, and a few other situations) he/she has let the world operate free of his/her influence. the same reason hitler, bin laden, or whomever is able to exist is the same reason satan is allowed to exist not because God wants them there but because God lets them exist
Are you saying he's just lazy not evil?
nope didn't say that.
*meaning
it seems to me that you have in mind that god condones evil (satan or any other forms). I think there is more than enough proof in the literature to say that he/she doesn't condone it but also doesn't put a stop to it. free will is a privilege that, as is written was given to humans during their creation. so evil is allowed to exist since god, according to scriptures, has more often than not intervened in the world.
but I'm not going to really argue it. I'm not a bible thumper I just know what it says. I could make the argument that based on the book there is credence to the idea that god doesn't condone evil but allows beings to do as they choose... presumably with judgment being determined once they are dead... but if you personally feel that god condones evil, by not wiping it off the earth, I think that's a fair personal belief to hold
Stopping someone from killing there neighbour isn't restricting free will. Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you want to do. Being paralysed doesn't mean you lose free will.
Anyway if God can do anything surely he can intervene without restricting free will.
Or is he somehow bound by logic in your mind? Many believers don't seem to recognise that as a constraint on God.
Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you Free will is about being free to decide what you want to do, not being able to accomplish what you want to do. Being paralysed doesn't mean you lose free will.
you seem to suggest (at least in this statement) that free will is entirely associated with physical action. it isn't. free will is the ability to think for yourself and act according to what you think and feel. the devil for all we know could be paralyzed, what I mean is paralysis doesn't stop someone from being evil if that's what they choose. free will is choice. the choice to believe and feel and act if capable. God would be intervening on free will if you had a thought and then somehow had that thought eliminated from your mind.
That's what I've been trying to say free will is. God can stop someone doing something without restricting their free will.
if god were to restrict free will then it wouldn't be free will. in America you have the freedom of choice in many matters. you are allowed to read any newspaper you want. if the government came in to say that this newspaper was not allowed then you wouldn't have free choice. true freedom, as it is defined, has no limitation or restriction aside from what the person exercising that freedom chooses to do with it. you know what I mean?
If I said you had the freedom to eat anything you want. you said you wanted steak and I said well not that. then you didn't really have freedom to eat anything. according to the bible humans have absolute free will to decide what they want. now those decisions may be based on plenty of things but ultimately the decision is, per scripture, 100% up to the individual
The devil was an angel 😇 but he did not want to praise the Lord. He wanted to be more than God. So now he is no longer an angel, but a fallen angle we call him the devil.
God lets him tempt us but the Devil doesn't make us do anything God lets us make our own decisions so if we fall in sin it's not because of God.
But he designed us so that we would, then after we break the rules he knew would he intends to inflict eternal torture on us.
No he didn't he maid eve and Adam perfect but they sinned and since then we are all sinners since we all came from them
Exactly he designed Adam and Eve in such a way that they were prone to sin, and the decided to punish the and their descendants for a flaw in his design.
Lol No God said they can have any fruit, but from the tree of good and evil, satan tempted eve but she didn't have to eat, it God lets us make our own decisions, he won't stop us and eve maid her decision she didn't have too but she did.
He designed Eve in such a way that she would yield to temptation, he knew she would before he created them, and yet he created them like that planning to punish his creation for doing what he knew it would.
I love this silly belief. The idea that man is special because we have free will and angels don't. If our free will is what makes us unique, then why is Satan to blame for rebelling against God?
Yes God knew it but he also knew he was sending his son to die for our sins but no matter what God still gives us a chance.
Because he still wants to be better than God and he will never want to repent.
I don't get how he had to send his son for our sins, he was sacrificing himself to himself so he could forgive us. If he wanted to forgive us couldn't he do it without torturing himself in human form?
A sacrafice is when you give up something to someone else. In this case, Jesus gave up his life for humanity... to who?
For humanity, to humanity.
I can sacrifice my morning toast to a starving person. It's for them and to them. It doesn't require anything else. Look I'm not going to start a religious fight it is really silly to this is just my opinion
That's not my main point really. God's the one doing the forgiving, so why does he need jesus to be sacrificed, surely he could just forgive us without jesus being crucified.
Because no one is perfect but God that's why and God, Jesus, and te Holy Spirit are one so you can't say God is the one that forgives is because Jesus is God as well.
But couldn't he just forgive us if he wanted to? Why did Jesus need to die first?
Many people do not understand why Jesus had to die on the cross. They say, "Why couldn't God just forgive us? Why did Jesus have to die?"
The reason why God could not "just forgive us" is that He is absolutely righteous. This means that He always does what is right. God has His way of doing things, and His way is always righteous. The Bible says, "He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, even they both are abomination [hateful] to the Lord" (Proverbs 17:15). I used some of this from a book but I agree so there it is why.
How does the crucifixion make it alright for God to forgive us if it wasn't alright to forgive us otherwise? Aren't these rules all God's anyway?
I'm not a believer of any religion, but my question: shouldn't Satan be the one prayed for most, since he is in need of redemption and forgiveness the most? Why the polarization of such a simplistic "good vs. evil" arrangement?
Exactly! And what happened to rooting for the under dog...
I don't think it has anything to do with "rooting for the under dog", but everything to do with practicing what you preach. Since the beginning of time, people have used stories to provide discipline, order, and structure for people. One obvious theme of this is to provide the backdrop for a supremely powerful being that you must obey in order to be "good", or else you'll suffer horrible punishments with another supremely powerful being for being "bad".
To me, modern religions haven't caught up with society itself. They try to blend thousand year old stories into a society with values that have changed by leaps and bounds since then. The usefulness of religious stories are being gradually squeezed dry due to our own civilization and understanding of the world we live in.
So to have a religion created with the original theme of obedience, an unquestionable authority, wrath and punishment... which then changes to a more merciful and admirable being... which is now trying to be further changed into a story of charity and almost unnatural goodwill...
It just doesn't make sense when you have all these conflicting themes (old, new, and newer) all trying to taught and followed in some sort of linear, consistent manner. Just makes little to no sense at all.
They say that Obedience is written in large letters in Heaven. Obedience to who though? What do you believe the message is?
Me personally? Religion is nothing higher than a man-made organization.
I think the real culprit is the tooth fairy. It's just crap that I got one dollar for each tooth when I could have sold them to Steinway for much more.
devil is a creature created by christians' minds
I think the Jews had him first...
There are theories that suggest that God and the Devil work together as a team, to keep the balance... yin and yang kind of thing.
No idea how many people believe it...
Man created the devil, because a carrot and a stick work better than just a carrot.
That depends on what you do with the carrot...
God doesn't exist, neither does Satan. They're both stories people made up so they could control other people, and to have something to excuse their own evil behavior.
I agree more or less. But I think it's a worth while thought experiment to consider why there would be a devil if God is Omnipotent. If God and the devil were to exist it would be because God wants the devil there.
... and then God gave Lucifer his real name, that name was- HUMAN!
Humans are definitely capable of evil all by themselves... that's God's design for you.
there is no "God".
Oh I'm speaking of the character God as seen in Christianity. I'm an atheist.
then interesting...
You're not religious, are you?
no im not.
I didn't think you were... just curious though.
According to the Bible, yes, that's exactly why he created Satan.
Which verse (s)?
the devil was created to excuse god's mistakes and to put the blame on him in instances like various disasters and atrocities in history where god was nowhere to be found.
He's God's scapegoat...
Humans created both. People shouldn't do evil actions because of a fear of hell. They should do it because it's right.
"People shouldn't do evil actions because of a fear of hell. They should do it because it's right." I think there's a mistake in there somewhere...
Lucifer became satan after he tried to become God and rioted against God in heaven, God won and threw him down to hell. The only reason Lucifer exists is because God want there to be free will, and when Jesus returns Lucifer will have no power anymore.
"The only reason Lucifer exists is because God want there to be free will..." So God is unable to maintain free will without Lucifer? Why not?
Surely God knew Lucifer would rebel, that was his intention was it not?
Really hard subject to answer, since the Bible doesn't say much about the time before God created us. I do however believe that God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but he has to because he is a just judge. It would be unfair if the people that mocked God and sinned without asking for forgiveness were allowed to go to heaven just as the people that followed God and did his will on earth.
"I do however believe that God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but he has to because he is a just judge." There his rules, he's not just a judge. He designed humans with weaknesses/imperfections he choose his arbitrary rules and he decided to meter out eternal torture to those who don't do precisely what he wants. Is this really a God to respect? Fear maybe, but not respect.
You have a really twisted image of God and that is sad. The first humans God made were perfect, the only reason they failed was because they misused free will. God gave humans free will because he doesn't want us to be his puppets, we have the power to decide wether we do right or wrong. Humans became imperfect when sin entered the world, that is why there are wars, cancer and hate in our world, it's our fault not Gods.
"... the only reason they failed was because they misused free will." God created them knowing they were prone to 'misuse' it, it was part of his plan for them to disobey him. It's our fault that Adam and Eve ate the fruit?
If it was you and me who were the first humans we would also have eaten the fruit. But I'll admit you are asking about really difficult things that I with my limited knowledge cannot answer. I recommend you ask a pastor or theologian about this kind of stuff since it is very complex.
God bless!
Hands clean? That implies righteous judgement is dirty. It's not :)
The devil is just an angel. Angel don't have many limits. The only one is they must obey God. They can easily "play evil" and "do harm". Who do you think the 4 horsemen are?
The only ones who need to fear or hate the devil are the ones currently in Hell.
Angels don't give a shit about "reputation", certainly not from humans.
No God is not 4 parts.
So why does God need the devil for his 'plan'? Surely God could administer Heaven, Earth and Hell all by himself, why does he need a sidekick? People like to thing God is good and the Devil is Bad, yet the devil is doing God's work, so is he there so God can be seen to be good.
"That implies righteous judgement is dirty. It's not :)"
God creates humans with imperfections and then punishes them for the flaws in his design, he intentionally created humans to disobey his arbitrary rules so that he could condemn them to eternal torture. You think that's somehow clean and it brings a smile to your face. This is what's wrong with religion...
Because it would be boring. God can do anything. Why "work"? That's a dumb human failing.
In human terms, God is like CEO with infinite VP angels ;)
Ya you're still thinking with a human brain. God can do literally anything. Humans don't even need to exist if one day he feels like it. ANYTHING. NOTHING IS BAD IF HE SAYS IT'S NOT :) Think on that.
So you think "God is good" is a tautology?
So he doesn't need Satan, he wants him.
I think "God is whatever he wants to be" is.
Correct. Satan's job could be done by any angel.
"Why "work"? That's a dumb human failing."
But surely he could just decide that things would happen and then they would, why does the devil need to be there? It's not like God would need to do any work to achieve that - if he can do anything, he can do whatever he wants without doing any work.
He probably does lol. He just does whatever is fun or makes sense at the time :)
So 'good' is completely meaningless then, if it has no meaning independent of what God wants. If God wants innocent children to be raped then that's good. - This is what you mean, right?
"Correct. Satan's job could be done by any angel." Why would he need an angel at all? Is he unable to achieve seemly by wanting it to be? Why must an angel be involved?
That is correct. See you are just a tiny mote of life in a scenario that is infinite. Yet you seem to think, with many people, that your rock solid beliefs are sound. First, understand God. Then you will understand how limited you once were.
An angel doesn't NEED to be involved. How do you even know the names Satan and Lucifer are God's names for anything or anyone? Fucking humans.
You said any angel could do it, implying that for whatever reason the presence of an angel is required.
I have no interest in speaking further with someone who thinks rape is alright if it's condoned by an invisible authority figure.
lol ok
I don't believe in God.
Neither do I.
God gave free will and I don't believe in the trinity.
Limiting someone's power doesn't mean they don't have free will. I could tie you up in a straight jacket, that wouldn't mean you no longer possess free will. Free will is the ability to want to do something, not the ability to actually do it.
Free will... freedom, but hey if that's what you want to believe bro by all means.
It's limiting you from choosing regardless.
What do you think free will is then? If someone is unable to move do the no longer possess free will?
Anyway if the devil's role is to lead people astray how does that fit in with free will?
"It's limiting you from choosing regardless." No it's not. It's limiting you from doing, not choosing.
I know what free will is and I know what limiting someone is. Regardless within the Christian belief you still get to choose and do as you want. You have that choice.
Who said it's the devil's role to lead people astray? According to the Christian belief it's the devil's own freedom and decision to lead people astray.
"It's limiting" So you admit that it's still limiting? LOL alright.
What is free will in your view?
"Regardless within the Christian belief you still get to choose and do as you want." Really? I would like to fly and breath fire, yet I can't, is my free will restricted? I can choose to do those things, but I can't do them. Can you not see the distinction?
"According to the Christian belief it's the devil's own freedom and decision to lead people astray." Sure, okay. Surely God is allowing Satan to undermine Human free will?
Of course I 'admit' it's limiting in some sense, "Limiting someone's power doesn't mean they don't have free will." this is what I wrote which we have since been referring to. "limiting" was the first word I used, there's no way in which I ever claimed it didn't limit anything in any respect. SO what's your point?
Within the Christian belief you can't breath fire and fly because you weren't created to. You were created to make your own decisions though. Do you understand that?
Within the Christian belief God allows the devil to make his own decisions just like anybody else.
That's what I've been trying to get through to you. Free will is about making decisions, not about being able to do anything. Do you get it now? Also can't you see that by giving the devil free will God is not allowing humans free will as the devil leads them astray.
"Of course I 'admit' it's limiting in some sense," Then I guess the problem is you don't understand what I meant. I meant that the devil can choose to do what he wants.
Free will:
noun
1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Is God not all knowing? When he created everything he would have known exactly how everything would unfold at every point in time. There is no decision he doesn't know the result of. Does God have free will, because surely he already knows what he is going to do?
Refer to the definition. Free will is the power to act without constraint.
"Also can't you see that by giving the devil free will God is not allowing humans free will as the devil leads them astray." So you think God shouldn't give his creations free will?
So because he knows what's going to happen he should restrict his creations? If that's your only argument and you want to believe that God should do that then fine, but don't act like that's a requirement or that there's a error here when really there isn't.
Do you think God can know everything and have free will (himself)?
God created Lucifer, but Lucifer used his own free will to defy God and become his enemy.