The importance of Going Dutch (or Splitting the Bill)

[Malik00]

This is a very good sign of things to come.

So this was previously going to be a MyTake titled the 5 trials of dating, Which are 5 circumstances where you can judge a woman's personality based on how they deal with these circumstances you present to her.

But the more i sat and thought about it the more i realized that it all kind of boils down to one simple question.

"Is she willing to go dutch on the first date?"

Now a lot of you might not think this is a big deal but, how she reacts to this is VERY telling about her personality as a whole. Because it tells you 2 very big, very important things.

A.She's Independent

B.She's Cooperative

C.She's Not Entitled

If she has her own money and is willing to split the bill, that tells me that there is no ulterior motive she's on this date for you, not for what you can give her. Which is very reassuring. It also says that she will be more then happy to alleviate any burdens that come up in the future rather then expecting you to carry all the weight.

Now this may just be me, but frankly you should also make it a point to keep an eye on her facial expressions. Her response should be snappy like be able to do it without a second thought. If she is hesitant in doing so, or has a look on her face that screams "Does not compute" That doesn't bode well for the future, and if she starts making a fuss about it....well she can just pay it herself.

The last one is self explanatory, too often you see women who feel they are entitled to everything and the fact that she is capable of taking care of herself and knows the value of hard work, is really comforting in a world where it feels like so many expect to have everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Now here's the kicker, it doesn't matter if she ACTUALLY pays the bill all that matters is if she's willing to do so. If you see she is willing to pay without a second thought, pay the whole thing anyway as a sort of reward with any luck the rest should work itself out. (Thought Sexual compatibility may be a bit of an issue)

End of the day we live in a dating culture, where the first impression matters now more then ever. Being able to gauge how someone is is very important. Otherwise you might find yourself in a really bad situation.

And why do i care so much? Because i haven't gone full mgtow yet. Despite feeling like i have every reason to do so, i haven't given up on women.....I just know to try and separate the hits from the misses.

[StingRayxoxo]

I was talking to a guy and making plans for a date when he told me he wouldn’t take me to dinner because too many women have used him for a free meal. I told him that if he was going to take me out, eventually I’d need food and we could go Dutch. We went bowling and then to dinner and he surprised me by paying. I think knowing that I didn’t have that expectation made him feel better about doing it. I’m not sure, that’s just what I’m assuming.

[Dmanscool]

Don’t sweat it even if something is absolutely going no where people pay for entertainment... guy sounds weird. ☺️

[red324]

I thought you had a boyfriend already?

[Ellie-V]

This is why I prefer to go on a date where no money is required.
Some retards will feel emasculated if the woman insists on paying her share or the whole thing.
Also, a first date is not special enough to be throwing bills away

[Malik00]

In this current dating environment you can't really care about how manly you come off as. You have to be practical lest you get taken advantage of.

[Kkaos]

"Some retards will feel emasculated if the woman insists on paying her share or the whole thing" - You act like it's a man's problem that men created and completely ignore the fact that many women are a major pusher of this 'retarded' notion.

[Ellie-V]

@Kkaos they should ignor retarded women and call the cops

[Cornputer]

Calling a man "retarded" if not paying makes him feel bad is retarded in itself. I am all for going Dutch, but men paying has been a tradition for a long time. It's not "retarded" to wish to be a gentleman.

[Ellie-V]

@Cornputer it’s retarded to automatically think it’s a requirement just because he has a penis.
A lot of guys aren’t doing it to be a gentlemen, they are doing it because they were conditioned that way.

[malegender]

I would never not pay for the date. Sorry but that would just feel "unmanly", but I have the confidence that she is going to want to go out again and I am not throwing the money away. Additionally i ma not going to spend my time with a lady I am not really interested in. My time is a much larger investment than the cost of dinner.

[Malik00]

Those just seem like buzzwords to me "unmanly" "unfeminine" It's not so much about being a certain way and more about thinking about things practically. If you focus too much on being manly, you're gonna wake up one day and find yourself with an empty wallet, nothing to your name and a better resentment against all women because of the one bitch that made you look like a tool.

[malegender]

My wallet is quite full but thanks for your advice. Here's some back:

trying to not pay on dates is not going to get you rich but looking for a woman who has good financial, health and sexual ideas will.

[Kkaos]

You can have the 'confidence' that she'll want to see you again, but do you have the confidence that she'll want to see you again if you don't pay for her?

[malegender]

@Kkaos dont be a cuck. I hope she doesn't want to see me again if I don't pay. I'm not dating any feminists

[Kkaos]

That's nice, don't complain if you get used though man.

[malegender]

@Kkaos I won't I've gotten a ton of tail in my day. If I gave away a few dinner big deal. You have to believe that you are smarter and more cunning and you can outsmart most women. if you don't believe this you will fail.

[Malik00]

Yeah but that's assuming getting some pussy is all you care about. Look I have an assload of porn at my fingertips, hiring an escort is legal in my state, and im open minded enough to experiment with anal.

My point is i have plenty of options if all i want is to get my rocks off, that means you gotta be more then just a pretty face and good in the sack if you want me to consider you even worth my time. If that makes me less of a man, so be it.

[malegender]

All I care about is getting some pussy, if that makes me less of a man so be it :) Take care.

[Kkaos]

"all that matters is if she's willing to do so." Here's the thing about that though, plenty of women will get their card out, with no intention of actually paying. She'll be waiting for the man to tell her to put it away, if he doesn't, she'll demonize him afterwards.

[Malik00]

Then wait until like right before she does it. I'm trying to be nice about this though.

[backdoorman]

@Kkaos You are right, of course. But that's a good thing because she's just shown her true colors, and you want to know what those colors are before getting too involved with her. She's just done you a favor, really.

[Kkaos]

@backdoorman Definitely, that's true. Many women treat the payment of the bill as a 'test' for men to show their ability to provide, I can just as easily use it as a 'test' to see if a woman isn't a cheapskate.

[backdoorman]

Exactly.

[yasii]

I agree that it's wrong to go on a date and expect a free meal. I get the whole "but he invited me" concept. But the truth is, if one of our friends would ask us to meet them, we wouldn't expect them to pay either. This whole "the men needs to pay for the first date" thing was born in an era where women if they had a job, they'd still have significantly less money then their male counterpart. But we do have our own money now and I don't see why anyone would expect money from a person they don't even really know yet. If you agree to the date, you should be in it for the company, not the meal. It's similar as men who expect sex on the first date. They are not entiteled to it and it says a lot about heir character.
That being said, I'd always prefer a date where we take a walk in the park and eat a hot dog on the way over a fancy restaurant. The vibe is just much more chill and there is less pressure.

[Dmanscool]

Juss don’t crush acknowledge under pressure kid. ☺️

[Dmanscool]

Damn auto-correct. “Don’t crack under pressure.”

[lilybenet]

You can’t generalize on every women and depending on that just one act make an assumption to what extent a woman is independent and what kind of life you two might have in the future. It depends on the culture from where women is coming, how she was raised, what kind of assumptions and beliefs does she have and etc. if the woman is coming from a “macho culture” she probably will expect a guy to pay on a date not because she is weak or not independent, only because this is what is done in her culture and this is how it supposed to be for her.

[Malik00]

Sorry babe, there has only been one truly macho man to have ever existed in this world and his name was Randy savage ok?

[Stellastarling]

Oh damn. This is a good one. I usually tend to pay the bill on the first date itself ( Mostly cause I like doing the whole asking the person out and that works well for me😂) I frankly believe that the person who asked out the person pays on the first date. Well this actually depends, if we think its going well and want a second date, then yes, pay in full. However if its not, and our compatibility levels just don't match, it's easier to part on a Dutch note. Now, when the date goes well, and we would entertain a second one, the person who didn't pay previously pays now! It works pretty well. And of course, if the person doesn't have nay money then that's a completely different case. Pay, straight up, regardless of gender. ( Not on the first date, but after some time) And to me, that sounds honestly perfect.

[Tymeflies]

I always pay. Chase what matters. Chivalry and integrity. It has less to do with my date and more to do with who I am and how I was raised. No one is entitled, and if the lady feels good, I do it. If she insists on paying, I make another date out of it and she chooses after I pay for this date. Puts the ball in her court and she gets to decide on whether to follow through or not.

If I don't want to spend money eating out, we do a dinner date and I cook. Or we go to a park, we walk and talk. We eat before me meet. Visit museums. Anything.

This is assuming I am able to weed out those who are simply looking to use me and waste my time. So far so good. Even if the date didn't have romantic interest, she at least knows what kind of person I am.

[SarahVanRensburg]

People are so sensitive when it comes to this type of stuff. Personally, I don't like people buying or paying for my things and I wouldn't mind paying for things while on a date. I will say though that I prefer to get whatever I want to eat and he gets whatever he wants to eat and then we meet up and eat together just so that nor he or I have to feel like we have to pay for the other person. Then again that's just me. I'm not a fan of the whole going out to some restaurant but rather something simple.
However, if he offers to pay, I won't complain, why? Because I don't think bickering over money and who will pay for the date is a nice, doesn't show manners nor do I find it "attractive" when people bicker over who pays the bill and it will just end up in us being in a mood with each other because if he's as stubborn as I am, it will be a neverending thing of "no I'll pay." So, if he pays for the date then I'd be more than happy to take him out somewhere just to say thank you.

[dani1221]

I think going dutch is a given, at least to offer it, in this day and age. It also shows that you’re self sufficient. I get it if a dude doesn’t want me to pay, but i always at least offer every time. When it comes to a long term boyfriend, I just grab the tab sometimes without them knowing until after the dinner or drinks.

[AynonOMouse]

The way I see it is each person should definitely pay their own way on the first date so nobody feels taken advantage of. Many times there won't be more than one date before realizing you're not a match with someone.

After that I wait until she pays my way before I pay her way. I don't care if it is just a $5 meal at Taco Bell, I just want to know her personality and how she plans to treat me.
Plus it helps me determine how her attitude will be in a relationship when it comes to money and if she would contribute, or if she is the type to think the man's money is for all the bills/expenses and all of hers is only for spending money and fun. I want someone that is more of a partner, not someone that is just bought and paid for.

[backdoorman]

Here's how I see it.

It doesn't matter which person asks the other out; both should pay their share. If she doesn't offer to pay her share, she's done me a favor because I just learned about a very important facet of her personality, one that I want to know about sooner rather than later.

If she decides that she doesn't want a second date with me because I allowed her to pay her share (even though I asked her out), she has done me an even bigger favor.

It's 2018, not 1950.

[princessfromjupiter]

You act like women are the only ones who are reluctant to split the bill when, as a woman who INSISTS to pay for whatever she’s having on first dates, I have encountered it almost every single time that the guy was ready to fight me over paying the complete bill. It was like my insistence to pay for myself was almost offensive to him. This is clearly not a gendered issue.

[princessfromjupiter]

Oh and did I mention that most guys who refused to let me pay for my own stuff were ironically DUTCH

[Malik00]

I don't see why it's better to know you can contribute if you want anything remotely long term.

[princessfromjupiter]

I don’t either

[Anonymous]

I do agree with you. In the sense of some women just openly want a free meal. Which isn't fair on the guy at all

[Malik00]

Esspecially when you consider that the idea of a man making more then a woman isn't that uncommon these days anymore, and in what galaxy would it be acceptable for someone who makes 75k a year to expect someone who makes barely half as much to bear the entire bill?

I mean who thinks like that?

[Opinion Owner]

Exactly. As a female whose worked and been providing for myself since I turnt 18 I find it offensive the women who don't even offer. I get that sometimes people don't have money. But make your date reflect that. Hell my first date with my boyfriend, he was jobless, I wasn't. So we went to the beach, I paid for chips, he paid for a round of golf. Even it out. We can't expect handouts just because of gender

[Malik00]

You know this really makes me hopeful for when i finally start dating.

[Opinion Owner]

:) glad it does. The minority shouldn't ruin it for the majority

[PinkMichae]

I'm sorry but I'm not. I'm a firm believer that if a person ask you on a date they pay. I pay when I make the date. If we can't afford dinner or whatever I'm perfectly fine with dinner and a movie at home or a walk on the beach. With that said guess what? I'm not money hungry, trying to see what I can get out of him other than getting to know him, I'm considerate, independent with my own money, and when my boyfriend lost his job I had no issues carrying us through until he found another. Nor did I judge him for having to help him. So I call bs on your theory. You'll just end up missing out on a good woman. Guys are so upset that some women judge them based on their pocket book, cock size, car, etc... yet look at how you make assumptions about us. And we are just as judged by some guys. Our boobs are to big, small, saggy, we wear to much make up, we didn't go Dutch on a date the guy asked her on, etc..

[Malik00]

Honey... if someone complains that your boobs are too big, small or w/e he probably wouldn't be asking you out in the first place. The make up thing, look if if you put on so much make up i can literally butter my toast with it... that is not attractive, alright? I don't care how attractive that makes you feel if you look like a completely different person without it, that's a truckload of red flags.

I just don't wanna end up in a situation where i work my butt off courting a woman, and 10 years down the line i find that she's been sleeping around behind my back and my kids barely even know me. Is it wrong to want a partner?

[ManaX]

I always offer on first dates but was admittedly surprised once when one guy agreed. With my current partner he insisted on paying for all meals/drinks until the 4th/5th date although, we now go dutch or one of us to pays in full. Proportionally to each of our pays (he earns a lot more than me) it's relatively even now. We're definitely a partnership.

[Cornputer]

I support going dutch 100%. If I order food, I want to pay for it. It's kind when guys insist, I understand the logic behind it. But it makes me feel guilty when others pay for me.

[Dmanscool]

Shoot I would pay for ya on any day that ends in y. 🤣

[Tru-陳]

@Dmanscool Settle down, chode

[Cornputer]

@Dmanscool I'm in.

[SpaceFungus-07a]

I almost agree with you. She should definitely be willing to go Dutch, but you shouldn't put her in that position at all. It's not right to test your partner with dishonest requests just to see what their reaction is. I agree with all the traits you want from a woman, but the proposed test is dodgy.

[Anonymous]

I will always offer, and I am 100% ready and willing to pay, but this is a very one sided take. What about how a woman judges a man if they’re too tightwads to cover the first date (assuming they were the ones that invited her)? Especially if it’s something cheap like a $4 coffee. Even tho I CAN pay, that kinda behaviour doesn’t bode well for future dates either.

[Malik00]

I agree it definitely goes both ways, but i can't imagine many men actually being too cheap to pay for a $4 coffee, just because of how bad it makes them look in comparison to how it would make women look to refuse to do so. Either way if they they aren't at least willing to pay some share of the bill it's not worth the effort to stick around.

[nathanp97]

If a woman doesn't pay her own bill she is either cheap or entitled and think her time and money is more valuable than a guys. I have no time for people like this. If a girl doesn't intend on paying she should state it from the start so I don't have to waste my valuable time. I don't date prostitutes😂😂😂😊😎

[Cornputer]

I'm a woman and it's entirely understandable if a guy doesn't want to pay. You should judge him based on his vibe and personality, not by if he pays for YOUR order or not. That's terribly shallow. What if the genders were reversed?

[A-man-22]

You want equal pay , sure
You want to remove old sexist stereotypes, sure

But you still want guys to pay the first date?
That's hypocritical, it's a sexist old stereotype and you may even earn more than him.

Splitting the bill is the only way to go.

[englisc]

Eventually you'll go full MGTOW because your mindset towards women, dating, masculinity vs femininity - is the reason you're unsuccessful with them, and you don't seem to be able to understand that.

[Malik00]

Why because i'm not holding women to such low expectations that i just say "Fuck it, here's 200 bucks, get on your knees and suck my dick"?

[englisc]

Because you have such strange views about women and relationships, strange obsessions, and you seem unable to see it.

[Malik00]

Ok then what are your views on women o supreme enlightened one?

[englisc]

I already told you about many of my views previously. We're different. But with this, you do have to avoid being taken advantage of sure, and I would forget about a second date with her if she didn't at least offer to pay, but going to the extreme of insisting that all dates must be dutch or else she's a prostitute/golddigger is silly. Take them on cheap dates and pay the bill, it's no big deal. Guys who obsess over silly little things like this get nowhere.

[Malik00]

Maybe i should have been more clear on that. Being a golddigger and being entitled are 2 completely different things. But in both cases i'd rather not deal with it. Golddigger means she's only with you for what you can give her, entitled means that dealing with her is like being a glorified babysitter.
I'm just saying I'd rather be with someone who can take care of themselves. I want no ulterior motives. l

[englisc]

Yeah but you can pay for a date without being their babysitter or something like that. Entitlement is bad, that's why I'd only go on a second date with a girl who offered to pay her share and was thankful when I paid. And usually they pay on the second date. That's how you tell the entitled users from the golddiggers. But going to the extreme of saying that it has to be dutch or else it's no good just turns girls off.

[Malik00]

Then just chalk it up to me being overly cautious.

[PinkMichae]

You said exactly what I was thinking. Some guys today constantly complain why they can't get a girlfriend cuz women are too picky. They don't understand what it means to court women. I'm just saying the men in my generation that were taught to court a woman and be a gentleman had no issues getting women.

[PinkMichae]

Continued:

How can women be impressed by guys that complain how unfair everything is like little 5 yr olds. Most of today's generation know nothing about offering a lady his seat on the full bus, bringing us flowers including ones picked from the garden or things like that. When guys are that way we feel special and in return will do things to make them feel special. And if you don't want to put that effort into making a lady feel special don't be surprised when she moves on to a man who will. We want to take care of our guys in many different ways. We don't mind carrying your babies. Should we complain that we did all the work and went through all the pain giving men babies just for them to have their last name? No. That would be childish. We are happy to do it. So I don't think it's too much to ask to have guys do things like take us on a date whether it cost money or not just to make us feel we are special to them.

[Malik00]

@PinkMichae You're the ones who asked for equality. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Cause after that we are basically bending over backwards for the prestigious honor of being in your presence. And at that point you gotta ask yourself is it even worth it when you know she thinks of you as little more then a walking atm machine?

[englisc]

@PinkMichae

I think that's partly because young women today don't respond well to that kind of thing - picking flowers and making an effort to make her feel special. Plenty of guys try to make the girl feel special, are respectful, try to make an effort and girls today see it as clingy or needy, so they end up going with a guy who doesn't do those things. I know this because I used to be the "nice guy" and was always friend-zoned after they ended up with some other guy. For example I'd take them on dates, I wouldn't try to sleep with them because they wanted to take it slow and I respected that, then they'd end up sleeping with another guy and getting with him. Then I became like those guys and I no longer got friend-zoned. Girls don't appreciate things like that anymore, at least not early on in dating.

I agree that guys who complain about unfairness all the time are idiots though. They have this bitter victim mentality that puts off women.

[englisc]

@Malik00

Why can't you see that your obsession with equality is the reason you're still a virgin? It's only guys who don't get laid who think the way you do. The only way a girl ends up seeing you as an atm machine is if she's the kind of girl to take advantage of the fact that you have no backbone. The guys who end up in relationships like that are pussies, that's all. But instead you obsess over equality and come up with all of these ridiculous rules and things that are just completely unattractive and pointless. I paid for my girlfriend when we first met, she doesn't see me as an atm machine because 1. she's not the kind of girl to want to use a man for his money and 2. if she was I'd have the balls to tell her no and would never allow myself to be taken advantage of. That's all there is to it. Then, you ask "is it worth it?" You speak as if you have any choice in the matter, as if you're the one choosing to avoid women rather than the other way around.

[Malik00]

So let me get this straight... i'm a virgin... because i actually have standards? Well that just says a lot about how low your expectations are... doesn't it?

[englisc]

I have standards, they just aren't so ridiculous and completely pointless that they prevent me from getting laid.

[Malik00]

im pretty sure not having an STD should be the absolute baseline of standards.

[englisc]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. My standards were: good looking, feminine nature, looks after herself physically, not a slut, not a golddigger, honest, funny, intelligent, has similar values, caring etc. All realistic standards that make sense when it comes to a long term relationship.

[Malik00]

Funny you actually have more standards then i do. Frankly end of the day i just want someone who isn't a hypocrite or 2 faced... we see too many people act one way in certain company only to act completely different in another. in my opinion one should stay as consistent as possible.

[englisc]

Yes, I can understand that and not wanting to be taken advantage of by some entitled golddigging slut. There are ways to figure that out without for example insisting on women paying half, ways that don't turn a woman off of you. I mean paying for a date isn't a big deal - to figure out whether she's that kind of girl you just look at the way she acts when it comes to paying up. Does she argue with you to pay her half? Does she say thank you? Does she offer to pay next time? Then she's not after your money. Does she say absolutely nothing because she seems to expect it? Maybe she even complains about "cheap guys"? Then she's entitled and you don't go on a second date with her.

[Malik00]

i suppose that's fair, basically don't be so frank about it right?

[englisc]

Yes, exactly. It's unattractive to them when you are because it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder. Any indication that you have some kind of bitterness towards women will turn them off. Instead it's better to act like it's no big deal and instead learn to read them. If anything learning how to read their actions and body language is more important than taking their words at face value.

[Malik00]

i wouldn't call it bitter... just cautious.

[englisc]

I'm talking about the way they see it. You can be cautious in different ways without it being so obvious.

[MasterKey18]

I have never had to Dutch it on the first date. Second one either. But I don't have a problem if it would be my turn on a third one, should I volunteer, or go Dutch once we became a couple.
I like what you wrote though!!

[Anonymous]

When I'm on a date with a girl, my goals are: 1) ascertain her level of sexual interest in me (because I don't want her to think we're going out as "just friends"), 2) show her a good enough time that she will be more sexually attracted to me and will want to have a second date.

Her going Dutch does nothing to help me on either of my goals. If I'm looking for a signal moment, it will be going in for a kiss and seeing how she reacts to that. If she kisses me, that's good news.

[Dmanscool]

Tbh it sucks me and a female I used to be with ended. However, now I have to do blah blah blah again and basically even if a chicks ugly I always pay. Don’t take her out weirdo if you can’t be a big dawg. 😉🤣. Daddy D will letcha know.