Okay, so this looks like a simple poll, but I already know the answer. I'm curious about one aspect of how the numbers will break down, but mostly what I'm looking for is an exploration of 'why.' Anybody have anything insightful to say on the matter? Please try to offer more than just a complaint. I genuinely would like to explore this, but I honestly have not much to add yet. Are the expectations at all realistic? Is it in any way related to biology/necessity? Ultimately, is the answer to happier relationships, lower expectations, and/or more acceptance? Or do more people need to rise up and make more effort, in order to be successful with other people?Sly & The Family Stone - 'I Want to Take You Higher'
Males
Females
Both have equally high expectations
Select gender and age to cast your vote:
Please select your age
Which gender has higher expectations in relationships?
Women have been "choosier maters" throughout human evolution compared to men, by a factor of around 2:1. (meaning, for each successfully reproducing female, only 1 out of 2 males get to reproduce AT ALL). Hence we have twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors. So going purely by evolutionary yardstick, women's expectations beat men's by 2:1.
But that's at the macro level of sexual selection. What about expectations within an existing (heterosexual) relationship, the micro level expectations that, in combination, form what we might call an unwritten "relationship contract"? At this level, I still would say women have higher expectations overall, but by a smaller margin than is observed in sexual mate selection. I think this is kind of balanced out by the fact that women may generally be a little less likely to actually verbalise when their expectations aren't met. A man will tell you exactly what the problem is, whether he's justified or just being a pig bastard. But men are generally more contented, whereas women may focus more on "what's missing" rather than "what's there already".
Maybe.
Or maybe not.
I'm kind of forming this theory as i write it, need to contemplate on it further.
Amanda's MHO pick. Thank you, Tom. Just the kind of combination of info I was looking for.
Is that 2:1 stat about which male successfully impregnates a female (while there could be several she mated with), or is it that half the number of males are ultimately chosen?
That's interesting you say "A man will tell you exactly what the problem is..." I know women often don't say explicitly what they're thinking (both because they don't want to, and/or they don't yet clearly know, until they've had more time to think), but wasn't necessarily aware men are vocalizing. That's good though.
"But men are generally more contented, whereas women may focus more on "what's missing" rather than "what's there already". Totally agree with you.
"Is that 2:1 stat about which male successfully impregnates a female (while there could be several she mated with), or is it that half the number of males are ultimately chosen?"
Oh that's a good point. I guess that stat is derived from the end result (ie: we can retroactively observe that we have two female ancestors for every male ancestor, tgus we can conclude men have only half the reproductive success that women have.). I'm not sure which process brought about that result. It could be a result of male competition for limited females in sexual selection (ie: out of two male pursuers, woman chooses one, and the other one never produces offspring as result) , or it could be a result of "genetic competition" ir "sperm wars" in which the female receives sperm from the same two men, but only one of them impregnates her egg to produce a child, thereby rendering the other male an evolutionary dead-end, even though he was successful in procuring a short-term sexual mate. From what i can tell, evolutionary science is still kind of torn between these two overlapping theories of "women as choosey maters" versus "women as sperm-grabbing sluts". But we do know for a fact that evolution prunes away roughly two males for every female. The explanation for this could be due to either of the above theories, maybe even both, or it could be a different explanation entirely. Hell, for all we know, maybe less men pass on their genes because every second male ti come along was so reckless and stupid that he got himself eaten by wild boars before getting a chance to impregnate a female.
It's clear that women have higher expectations, at least in western cultures. Women have always needed higher expectations than men, mostly for biological reasons. Modern technology and culture has change much of that, to the point that both men and women can get away with widely different expectations.
In past ages men and women needed to pursue specific and universal skills in order to attract a mate. Now with specialization and diverse cultures being what they are, men and women with very different life skills can still find someone interested in joining their lives to them.
It creates a lot of uncertainty, but it also means that people who couldn't have found love in the past can now. Women still generally ask for more than men, though the mistake that both make is they assume that all men or women want the same thing. They don't. Both should consider the kind of man or woman that they are trying to attract, and be what that person wants, which is hopefully what they already wanted to be on their own.
Yeah but Torari dude that's an online dating site, yeah? So they've only got looks to go by. It doesn't poll women who don't use that dating method. Granted any chick with a phone is slung SOOOO much dick it's almost inevitable she gets really picky and judgmental, because of all the choice. But if you found a woman unpoisoned by social media and electronic influence, maybe a sporty girl or someone deep in a hobby, I bet she expects less of a guy's appearance.
@Torari Of course women are objectively more attractive because they put more effort into their physical appearance, precisely because men care more about physical appearance than women do.
I did a poll & most men said they put less than 5 minutes of effort into looking good for their online dating profile picture. And they expect to look as good as women, who spend 30+ minutes doing hair and makeup? Please.
@lolcraft Yes it does. If I take a picture of myself after I just rolled out of bed, I can't expect it to be as attractive as if I spent 30 minutes preening myself. Likewise, men can't expect to look as good, with a few minutes worth of effort, as women look after 30 minutes of preening themselves.
You can't just apply x task min or otherwise towards such a subjective standard as an individual's beauty. Makeup, no makeup, in the morning, at night. All variables towards one general attraction. The breakdown of which has been replicated since the sixties.
Spoken like a dude. Have you never waited for a girl to get ready to go somewhere?
You're right, WE can't apply task by minutes rote understanding of our beauty, and granted it's definitely, DEFINITELY not a fixed set amount of time for girls, but they absolutely define their confidence in their looks by time spent preparing. Like birds preening their feathers, women only feel their most confident and attractive when a set amount of time has passed (ever-changing and entirely controlled, measured and set by themselves and their instincts).
Beauty and more importantly confidence of beauty are the aspects you're failing to take into consideration. Self-esteem is vital in regards to beauty for a female.
Whereas yeah we don't do much or sometimes anything to amplify our looks. Some younger dudes take hours to gel and wax and gay up their hair. Some dudes shave their chests. Typically we do virtually nothing beyond showering and getting fully dressed.
Hahahahahaha 😂. Well... I mean a lot of us shave our heads just for that ease and convenience.
You have to understand, our hope to attract a mate is somewhat based on luck and faith and if it is hope it's probably blind, puppy-like hope. Because you can say no so easily, for so many reasons, it's just playing like russian roulette with our confidence. And that would be my understanding of the mating ritual.
Ladies: Makeup, nice (new) clothes, shoes, hairstyle, lipstick etc. Your hope to attract is a physical investment to improve your chances.
Gents: Confidence. Pure and simple, just be the most confident guy.
So then when you go out and it doesn't happen, maybe no guy approaches you, my experience would say your girls all rally around you, possibly give you a "makeover" but definitely offer moral support and next time, new clothes, makeup, shoes, all these things boost your confidence, alongside a supportive structure of friends.
Whereas...
We can't get confidence or self-esteem in a shop, and almost NEVER from friends. The best way for a guy to gain confidence is, somewhat cruelly, to be successful in being accepted by a woman. So, we have to manifest confidence, and then to approach, we basically spend that confidence, and every rejection can knock it back, a harsh rejection being enough to finish it off completely. And if a guy strikes out, his buddies just make fun, because that's our way lol. And if a guy is somewhat close to making a connection with a girl, do you think other guys support that? Fuck no, they try to steal her asap! 😂😅
So yeah why would we bother to brush our hair? It's not even 1% of what the game is about
I think women do. I think they tend to have expectations of men being high quality in terms of his looks, his character, his interest in her, and his finances.
This is from OkCupid. com. And we can see how women rate men. Whereas men have much more natural standards, and the attractiveness of women follows a normal bell curve, the attractiveness of men is radically skewed. So much so that the vast majority of men are rated as less attractive.
I think the cause of this can be traced to several different things. One of them is the prevalence of Disney movies. The girl always gets saved by the dashing prince, and he drops everything to revolve his life around her. The girls start to dream of this for themselves and they can even start to expect this to an extent. Women are also told that they can have whatever they want and be whatever they want. Which is true, but you have to work for it. You have to sacrifice your time and your energy. Sometimes you even have to sacrifice your softness and your nurturing nature (assuming you start out with one). And that can really be difficult for a woman.
What makes this especially difficult for them is the biological and psychological fact of hypergamy. Men date across the socioeconomic status and down, whereas women date across the socioeconomic status and up. So if a woman is successful, the chances of her being interested in another man decreases because her standards increase commensurate with her own rising status. And the more successful she is the more difficult it is to find a man for her.
And if a woman has princess syndrome, then we often see her have high standards for her man while simultaneously having no standards for herself. She doesn't take care of herself, she doesn't try to improve herself, she doesn't increase her skills or her character. And that sense of entitlement is a major turnoff for men. A man wants to have a clear understanding of what he brings to the table and he wants the woman to do the same. But if she expects all her dreams to be fulfilled and not to give anything in return, she will wind up bitter and dissatisfied.
Compounding the issue is the fact that men are really struggling. Women outperform us in schools, in many careers, and even in wages with some age groups. This can make an imbalance between the sexes that is hard to bridge.
I know this is heavily focused in one direction. At least in terms of the information and presenting. It's not to say that men don't have their own versions of these poor expectations. So let that be noted.
As to what should be done about it, if the standard you have for a partner are about values, I don't think they should be lowered. If they are about financial status, physique, or his ability to fulfill your dreams, I think you don't have to necessarily lower those but you have to be reasonable with them. And by that I mean, if you're marrying when you are young, expect to marry a man who does not have much money or reputation. He's just starting out in life and it takes time to build up to that level. On the flip side, if you want to wait until your peers are much more socially successful, you have to also become the kind of woman that that type man would be attracted to. As long as you don't compromise your own worth and values.
So it's a trade off. Marry young and increase your chances of children but you also start out at a lower financial and social status. Marry later and the financial status increases but your chances of marrying decrease because of the smaller pool as well as your chances of having a family.
Hmmm. Well thank you, Grond, for your contribution. There's a lot here. I don't agree with it all. And it is very one-sided, as you admitted. I have quite a few more mytakes in me, but they're getting to be more and more complex topics, so I've got a long way to go before I actually publish. Some of the concepts, you are bringing up here. I can see you have it organized as a certain narrative. I think you did it as best and objectively as you could. And I'm pretty sure, based on all our past interactions, that you know I agree with you on the base premise. But as we get into the weeds here, we diverge some. I don't want to tackle any points here specifically. I'll come back to this later, and maybe incorporate some of it elsewhere. Again, thanks for contributing.
Thank you for seeing I'm trying to give it a fair shake. I'm sure some of my own biases got in there, And if anything jumps out at you feel free to critique me. I would love to know which things you disagree on. But we don't have to tackle it here or now. I would also say, that I think this is true in Western culture in the current day and age. Some of the other cultures around the world have the inverse. And this wasn't always true in our societies either.
A few years ago, I would have said women unilaterally. But I don't know. Overall, it's probably women; but, men have a very specialized form of expectations. Try to stay physically appealing; be supportive; and don't cheat physically. Is how I see it. It's true I think that women have a wider range of expectations, but I think they're also more adaptable and can take or leave more things, too.
That said, I've known a lot of women who put up with way too much. Like, they will cook, clean, work, raise the kids, and just do everything for a no-good, piece of shit man who helps with nothing.
I feel like it makes sense that women would have higher standards and expectations. After all, sex is a big risk for women. They could legit die. So naturally, they usually want to make sure the man they're having sex with is reliable and can take care of her if she gets preggers and needs some support during those 9 months. That's just ingrained, I think.
However, in practice, and in my experience, the women I have been with have always given me way too much leeway. It seems to me that when a woman is invested in a relationship, she will put up with fucking Hell to stay with him. For way too long. Naturally this differs between women, but generally speaking, that's what I've found.
If a man proves his value to a woman, she will just take that and run with it and will put up with TONS of bullshit to stay with him, just because he once proved his qualities, then they establish that relationship history, and the woman cannot resist staying even when it's bad for her.
At the same time, I watched my father growing up supporting my mother in all things and doing everything for her, and her not showing an ounce of appreciation most of the time. He cooked, cleaned, worked 60 hour weeks, and she was ungrateful every step of the way. Entitled.
And of course, women have been proven to have higher standards and expectations in a general, non-personalized sense when it comes to depersonalized mate-selection; but, when they find a man who has proven he's at least "sufficient", the power behind the time and history of the relationship can overpower all deficits, to where she will then lower those expectations, profoundly, to a degree less than the man had for her originally.
It's a difficult thing to measure, I think. And while there may be gender difference in the general sense, person-to-person it will differ substantially. And I think it also differs based on whether we're talking about a man and woman with history, or a random man and a random woman, as I feel men and women are different in this regard. Men are more accepting to start, but then women are more accepting after the history has been established. That's how I think about it, anyway.
Well, you are really in the thick of it right now aren't you. I did see your first question, and I was impressed with that too (in part for the honesty and balanced accounting), but I see now this is all real time, not in the past, and you're really going through something. I have been very busy and away for a couple of days and didn't have time to respond to it, yet the situation marches on. I'll try and respond over there...
Yeah, you could say that. It's better today, because I know she's coming home. In 3.5 hours. The situation has changed a bit since then, though, but basically real time, yes. Thing is, we argued last night. Her claim was she couldn't cut her trip short, because she didn't get enough sleep for a 12 hour drive. Yet, she told me she got good sleep on Wednesday. And Thursday. And this morning she only got 6, but is still coming back. Meaning her sister prolly kicked her out, or she had planned to leave today regardless of sleep, meaning either way she was decieving me. At least, I can't see any other possibility. If she wanted to stay, I wish she woulda just told me that. I'd have been fine with it. Not "I can't wait to be home," *procedes to wait to come home*.
In any case, we argued a bit. Which I guess doesn't make her homecoming as good as it should have been, but that's my fault. She did also say last night all she wants is to cuddle for 12 hours when she gets back. But, who knows where her head will go on a 12 hour road trip.
She's pulled away the last two days. Very deflecting of any probes intimate or sexual. We'll see how it goes when she gets back.
But yes. I've been in some thorns, this past week, that's for sure. I possibly had a mild case of COVID, on top, haha. When it rains, it pours.
It's definitely us girls, we are brought up with fairytales, Prince charming and unrealistic love expectations, way higher than they should be.
It's very rare that you will find someone who can be that for you, expectations kill a lot of relationships, but also I think that in the beginning of a relationship guys make all this effort to win us over and then when they have us, they stop. So our expectations were being met to some level and then not anymore. Accepting that can be hard sometimes and it can feel like they're not that into us anymore, when in actual fact a lot of the time they've just become comfortable with you.
Expectations are the downfall of humans in general, we expect too much and our pride and ego gets dinked when they're not met which causes a ripple affect. Acceptance and understanding that can make a huge difference, you cannot be let down by someone if you do not expect too much, having basic expectations such as being treated fairly and well are fine but beyond that, you're asking to be let down.
I'd personally rather expect nothing but being treated fairly and well, and be surprised by everything else rather than expect it and be let down.
I say both equally have higher expectations, but that men overall have lower expectations that are unrealistic and women have overall higher expectations that are also unrealistic. And no, it is not related to biology or necessity. It is related to the unrealistic expectations of society that is highly sex-driven. In truth, success has to do with what one truly wants out of their life. Godly desires or immoral ones. Those who desire Godly desires needs to raise the bar higher if they are low and be more realistic with that bar. Those who don't do whatever they wish, but they should not expect those who do desire Godly things to want what they want. Too many people are too desperate and should have kept themselves at a clean slate and not be doing what others are doing. People are asking for more when they aren't what they're meeting for themselves. And it leads to hypocrisy.
I'm trying to be as fair when I say this... but females. Females tend to want their partner to be protective of them, to provide more than themselves (even when some females say they agree with equality, they generally are happy or more accepting of having a man provide or pay for them), to be tougher than them emotionally and stronger physically and obviously have a decent personality/chemistry with them. All men generally want from women is to be attractive enough to date and have a decent personality/chemistry with them.
I'm not saying everyone is like this. I'm saying that this is GENERALLY the case.
Because it really differs between one person and another, some males/females would have high expectations, and some males/females would have low expectations...
Based on my experience, females tend to have high expectations about some unrealistic stuff like tall/big dick etc... while also males tend to have high expectations about body shape (not talking about weight, but shape)... on another hand, males want security, intimacy, companionship, love, which is the same as females, but females would want a lot more amount of those, and its due to their complexity of emotions/mind...
But then again, it really differs between one another. I think its more related to the person him/herself, rather than genders.
I think females have higher expectations. Men want sex, companionship, and faithfulness. Women want all of that, plus they want feelings, conversations, gifts, honey-do lists, etc.
Relationships take work. Two people have to get to know each other intimately enough to know how they act when they are not on their best behavior. Are they a slob? Do they snore? Does the way they eat drive you nuts? Are they bossy? Do they have a temper? Are you okay with their hobbies or entertainment preferences? What about their friends? Are you compatible sexually? If people learn those things and can accept them, and if they are looking to settle down, then a long term relationship or marriage is possible. But, as I said, ongoing work is necessary to keep the relationship strong, healthy and exciting. Communication is the key. Equal respect, regard, truly caring about each other's happiness, and willingness to compromise and make sacrifices are necessary. But it's a two way street. I think both men and women have equal expectations when it comes to a committed relationship. But maybe I'm just speaking from my own perspective.
Girls are raised to believe they’re a princess, if boys write a story that’s about a knight conquering a dragon in order to save the princess they’re brought into to be talked to and then they advise the parents he should be on mood enhancing drugs because his story in 4th was labeled as dangerous. Maybe women inherited this mindset because Eve had a double portion of the fruit?
Oh, you get points for writing, Sir. I don't know if I entirely agree with your characterization, if we're being serious, but it's certainly intriguing me enough for a follow.
When men get into a relationship they want companionship and sex but women expect their men to solve all of their problems in life. Women may have become financially independent but they're still looking for the knight in shining armor and that's why they want a partner who has very few flaws; Because how can a man who's just as flawed as them fix everything that's wrong with their lives.
I can see some kernels of something akin to truth in what you're saying. But you're mistaken that "women expect men to solve all of their problems in life."
Men offering unsolicited, almost-constant advice to women, is one of the undying issues between the sexes. I've explored this topic here before and I don't want to get into it at length now again. But it's much more complicated than you seem to understand it. It's a major innate gender difference, a preference in how the sexes each handle and process life, and sometimes even a matter of respect.
And my advice to you (and I know you're not asking, but we both landed here, giving our opinions on this topic) is stop defaulting to giving advice. And if [she] is talking on and on, too much for you to handle, cut her off [nicely] and say you can't absorb any more. That is fair, and within your right. But do not think that you can slap a quick band-aid on her 'problem' and lickity split, one and done. That's missing the point entirely.
Maybe I didn't express my thought well. I actually don't try to solve people's problems. What I meant was that lots of women expect men to give them a new life. New social life, new activities and hobbies, new people, etc, while men only want a woman and none of those other stuff. I know lots of women who don't like who they are as people and don't like the live they're living and they wait for a man to come along and change who they are and change their lives completely which I think is ridiculous. That's what I meant when I said women want all their problems solved after they find a man, but of course there are always exceptions.
I don't know.. They will probably wind up single tho because their expectations are to high and they turned everybody down because of it. Me personally I don't think I'm really all that hard to please. Just someone you are attracted to and has the right kind of personality you are looking for. After that what more else could you want right?
Men tend to have high expectations when it comes to a woman’s appearance and sex.
Women tend to have high expectations when it comes to social economic status and wealth, among other things. However these qualities aren’t exclusive to either gender.
Both have equally high expectations but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for both to at least try to meet their expectations.. as long as they aren’t too ridiculous.
If they’re in a relationship, they should always keep communication open, don’t cheat, don’t lie, be courteous, and keep gestures reciprocated.
If they’re in a committed relationship and they’re living with each other, they should at least help carry their own weight in some way by paying their way.. whether it be through paying for rent, utilities, or groceries.
As an adult, you will have to pay your own way in life, regardless.
No, you can’t skate through life being a sugar baby. That’s not how it works, sorry!
You can spoil each other but it isn’t your job to babysit them.
I think I have lower expectations. But that's simply because of a jaded view of women in general. I know how they are. So I just have to be realistic up to a certain point. ... But, at the same time, I still have high standards. I'm not going to relax my standards to allow someone into my life who will cause me nothing but pain and misery for the rest of my days (since I don't believe in divorce.)
I got this from a book written by a woman and she completely nailed it, I'm glad she even admitted that women are more difficult and more complicated, harder to attract and seduce than men are:
Women’s “Survival Needs”: being protected, being provided, Reproduction = Survival.
So our sexual selection process—and thus our attraction process—is dictated by our survival goals, whether you believe in evolution or God’s design for us.
And as you can see, women have more “survival goals” or needs than men do. Men were designed to essentially be able to produce and provide on their own, and can protect themselves.
Whereaswomen were designed to need the man for those things. This is why women are a bit more complicated and harder to attract, seduce than men are."
Women but soon with the rise in divorce and with the feminist court bias men will have ever increasing standards for women to meet. If a woman wanys a nuclear family they will have to conform to higher standards and loyalty as its going to be increasingly difficult to convince men to marry if at all.
I feel like it should obviously be females. Guys care about looks to get things started and the an enjoyable personality as the major component to the relationship. Girls care about that stuff but also financial situation, ambition, confidence, status, security, etc, just a bunch of stuff.
I think both changing their sense of attraction to meet halfway, but I don’t think we’re going to magically change anyone’s nature.
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