Are many men really clueless about women?

[Shelly2002]

Sometimes it makes me think several men are really clueless. So instance what man doesn't know that giving a ring in a box to your girlfriend, seeing how excited she's getting only to then tell her it's a promise ring isn't going to offend her? Are they really clueless about men?

How would they like it if I were to decorate the room, give him his favorite meal and then pretend I'm going to be intimate with him but then stop, tease him and say ''On no you're not going to do it, it's just to get you turned on, that's it''.

Updates

1 y

What they're doing is greatly going to offend many women. It's the equivalent of getting him excited for sex but purposely then denying it when he gets turned on.

[MisterWack]

“What they're doing is greatly going to offend many women. It's the equivalent of getting him excited for sex but purposely then denying it when he gets turned on.”

“So instance what man doesn't know that giving a ring in a box to your girlfriend, seeing how excited she's getting only to then tell her it's a promise ring isn't going to offend her? Are they really clueless about men?”

So…. My response is, you can’t judge men for all being clueless on the dumb actions of one. Just as I won’t judge all women based on this ignorance. I would say men who do this are clueless and deserve to be told “bad, this makes a woman feel like you are going to propose only for you to let her down with a ‘promise’ ring…. Ladies don’t like that, please understand thank you”. There are plenty of dumb idiots out there, just as I would tell women on a first date don’t utter the phrase “I love you” because that is too much and puts pressure on the guy you just met 5 seconds ago.

[MisterWack]

*edit: For all those that didn’t get the memo, my stance is “humans are all capable of being idiots, don’t judge someone for their gender and please try to reason/educate to fix the stupidity in its tracks. Note that you wouldn’t like your specific gender being labeled as incompetent on the basis of one because that is sexist and wrong.

[Shelly2002]

It's amazing how several people lack common sense. It should be clear what obvious things would offend the genders but wow some lack basic awareness.

[MisterWack]

@Shelly2002 Did you not read my response, I agreed that it is stupid with the whole promise ring shit and it can be a teachable moment to correct the stupidity.

[Shelly2002]

I did and do agree some humans just don't have common sense. Hopefully they learned from that stupidity soon. Yeah the promise rings things sound more like a 15-18 year-old kid from HS would do.

[MisterWack]

@Shelly2002 Yeah I didn’t even know what the Hell a promise ring was. Definitely Middle School / High School behavior lmao. Some humans have common sense, others don’t sadly I’m afraid.

[lightbulb27]

Yes they are… how this hsppen?

[Shelly2002]

They have no common sense about the female mind at all. To us, the promise of commitment is with an engagement ring. There is no ''promise ring, then pre engagement ring, none of that BS. It's a proposal or don't give us any ring at all.

[lightbulb27]

Exactly. The issie isnthey are scared! Women now have to learn to manage a dog that will run at first much faster than before. Sad… poor training and social degredatiom. They can't handle conflict and pain and system seems weighted against them.

[lightbulb27]

ps I know a guy that offered and bought a promise ring. I know the woman and told her how pointless it all was, at best a step... but a step to nowhere. he only did it to challenge himself.
a promise ring is an oxymoron. moron being key word...:)

[Shelly2002]

Indeed. It's a step towards nowhere. The only single step towards marriage is an engagement with a wedding date set on.

[AI Opinion]

Ah, the age-old dance of understanding and misunderstanding between men and women! It's like trying to decode a foreign language without a translator sometimes. Indeed, some men may seem like they're navigating a maze blindfolded when it comes to understanding women. The scenario you described with the promise ring? Classic case of miscommunication and unmet expectations - a real facepalm moment, if you ask me!

As a relationship coach, I've seen it all. Yes, some guys can be clueless, but this doesn’t come from a bad place. It comes from different wiring, priorities, and, let’s be honest, sometimes a lack of insight into what really makes their partners tick. Imagine the surprise when the grand gesture doesn't land as expected!

On the flip side, your hypothetical situation of setting up a romantic evening only to stop short as a tease? Oof, that would definitely send mixed signals and possibly cause frustration or hurt feelings. It's like dangling the carrot just out of reach!

Here's the deal: communication is key. Talk about your expectations, desires, and boundaries. Understanding each other’s love language can avoid these mix-ups and lead to deeper connections. So, next time, instead of planning surprise reveals or teasing scenarios, consider an open and honest chat. It’s less dramatic, sure, but way more effective in love and war! 😉

[UnicornLobotomy]

She sounds clueless about a healthy relationship. A good traditional guy with property a good job and money will often wait to have sex until marriage or engagement if he’s 30 and under these days.

Its a new thing, bringing back the old ways and it helps vet potential wives, if someone really loves him this would be tough but easy and worth it in the long run. Dating is too easy for good looking women today (kinda always has been) but now they all (even mids) chase the rich and handsome ones. If he thinks that highly of you to not just bang you on the second or third date, you must’ve said you aren’t just looking to hook uo and maybe you said you’re traditional or religious and ge believed you. So girl, you’re scoring a top guy and you’re just a horny liar if that angers you because he’s showing signs he is able to commit.

[Rosexøxø]

I’d say a promise ring by a man who is financially able, up in age, and has been with the woman for more than a year or 2- is at fault. It’s either hesitancy or manipulation on his part towards her.

I had a cousin who was dating a guy since high school up into her 30s and only around then did she get a proposal and it was an engagement ring- not even the wedding ring. The wedding came like 2-4 years later and he never seemed interested in her. He just got used to knowing her and waited possibly until she was too old to have kids. 🤷‍♀️ saddest thing I beheld in this lifetime.

Then there are guys who are either not financially secure but hard working, or underage, or religious, or cautious. It could be at the year anniversary or so, but they will offer a promise ring 💍 to show the lady he will do all he can to work for a better future that she seems deserving of and he asks that she will wait for him and not fool around or look elsewhere for life long companionship.

In this case, it’s totally fair, and probably a way to slowly build the relationship without scaring either party and also building the levels of commitment until both are ready for life long commitment and knowing the intentions of each other. If they intend to stay and believe they both get along well.

Aside, from these justifiable scenarios/cases, some women have abused the actions of legal marriage, and some men definitely have abused the symbolism and intentions of promise rings and promised proposals. One can lead a woman on, and one can crush a man’s earnings.

Those are definite negative that have happened in the past, but it’s best to understand that and weigh the scenarios. See which one you’re in- whether male or female.

Also in all cases make sure to find out what kind of person you’re with and ensure it’s someone you can be honest with, and they are honest with you because communication is KEY in all of this, but also acknowledge these and avoid any red flagged men. Pursuing those relationships that have alignment with our views, character, and life goals. 👍

Hope this helped in some way.

If he’s a good guy, you’re better off explaining how all of this made you feel and what you had assumed this was.

If he’s not a good guy then move on from him, and let him throw that nonsense and negativity at someone else.

Are men clueless? Sometimes and vice versa. No human regardless of gender is able

to mind read and use whatever that is- that telepathy or telekinesis, and such.

[godfatherfan]

Nothing says that you have to get engaged, then immediately get married. Promise rings are ridiculous. Ok, I guess if the couple is like 14 or 15, it is a cute little thing they can do. But in any realistic situation, it is just dumb.
I knew my ex-wife exactly 40 days before I went into the military. We met 1/10/89, I went into the Air Force 2/14/89, I came home and proposed Memorial day weekend. We ended up being engaged for 4 years. First it was when I finish school, then it was when I get a good job, finally it was "lets do this". Now, that wasn't necessarily bad. We got to know each other more. I was 25 and she was 22 when we finally got married in 1993.
There is nothing wrong with getting engaged, then waiting for the right time. To give a promise ring is really no different then an engagement ring, except the commitment isn't as strong. I know young people are not as committed as us older people. When you are just together, you could get in a fight and break up a lot easier then if you are engaged and have a big fight. There is more at stake.

[Rosexøxø]

@godfatherfan I see and I’ll take notes. I wasn’t recommending anything over the other. I TRIED to keep my comment as general and close to my observations as possible. I’m just saying it can be seen as a traditional thing; even a religious thing. Which in that case it’d be just as equally important as the other two. It’d even mean more rings. For non religious and non traditional people it has little to no value and thus it’s discardable. In which case an engagement ring would be best, but for the cheaters and any with malevolent intentions I think all can agree, regardless of age, they’d be as worthless as a singular grain of sand amidst the Sahara Desert.

To each their own. A case by case thing. Varies for couples and of course either of these three rings can be used for manipulation. Any item can. Especially those of value and those with legal connections/associations. But I appreciate your addition to my comment. It should help readers come to more conclusive understandings and decisions. Having a broader knowledge on this subject. 👍

[DishLady]

Selective recognition and processing of their experience and observations can lead to confusion. Bad experiences can lead to emotional scaring and therefore jaded opinions that aren't particularly helpful or productive, but they're "playing defense" after heartbreak as a default protective protocol.

Personally, I think both guys and gals need to show each other way more grace. We all get hurt. It's not a good enough reason to be jaded and shut out people who would be good for them.

[Shelly2002]

Indeed there should be communication. Honestly anyone doing that is like dangling a carrot in front of someone, then raise it higher and higher so they never reach it. That can even be cruel.

[DishLady]

Well they do have the dangling carrots, so... there's that. 😂 😂 😂

Guys who are cruel are a different category than the clueless. I was married to cruel. It's not the same at all.

[OlderAndWiser]

Are MANY men really clueless and insensitive to women's feelings? SOME men are clueless and insensitive to women's feelings, but many of us are considerate of our partner. Maybe you are finding immature men (boys) to date.

Are MANY women really clueless and insensitive to men's feelings? Do you know how it hurts to have a woman accept a first date invitation and then we later discover that she only wanted a free meal, or she used us to make her boyfriend jealous?

[Shelly2002]

yes using people for anything (whether it's a free meals, sex, etc) and being insentive to a person's feeling is cruel. It would be good if both genders were more emphathetic towards each other. I'm currently single but this happened to two women I know, my female cousin and a former work colleague. Their live-in bfs of 4+ years did just that, greatly hurting them with the promise ring.

[OlderAndWiser]

I think a promise ring is okay for 16-18 year old kids who aren't ready for marriage, but an immature thing to do when you are older. It is simply a way of postponing the commitment, and stringing a girl along.

[Vesuvius87]

Either it's a no-brainer or them wanting all the benefits of the relationship (free, unlimited sex and romance) but not the responsibility of filing out an actual marriage paperwork and commit to you publically in front of your family and close friends. If any other women have issues, just offer to pay for the wedding yourself (assuming you're also working and not poor) and sign the prenup, removing any doubts or disputes he has.

[Anonymous]

A lot of men could say the same about women not understanding men. But we really don’t cause we know we’re simple. It’s women who are complicated. All one has to do is watch videos of women as far as how they tend to operate. A lot of them don’t want toxic men as they say but gravitate toward those men. A man who’s willing to be w her, have a family w her is shut down cause he’s boring, he’s not exciting. I’ve even heard of women starting arguments just to see if their partner still cares. Or women rejecting men because he respected her boundaries. Like him not making a move when she said she wants to take things slow. Then says she was expecting him to still try to kiss her. Now she doesn’t want to see him. Women say they don’t care about what we eat so then you say let’s get pizza. No I had pizza earlier. Ok let’s get chicken. I don’t like fried chicken. Women on here talk about how they don’t like certain men, but when this man stops following her or trying to hit on her now she’s upset that he moved on. She’s mad he actually found someone. Women breakup w men but stalk them online. The list goes on. You want honesty but don’t like honesty when he’s really honest w you. Like does this dress make me look fat? Now he’s supposed to lie. I wasn’t raised like a female, so yes there’s going to be things I don’t understand. Women act as if because men “don’t have feelings,” we’re always the ones who are wrong. Men’s feelings are never really validated. So we don’t talk. What’s the point. You get a lot of women asking questions about why men do this or that especially in regards to women. The girl doesn’t like the answer so she calls him a disgusting pig or something, a misogynist or whatever. Rather than inquiring why, trying to learn more she just shames him. Society doesn’t support men the way it does for women. You expecting a man to read your mind is ridiculous. We don’t sit around watching sappy movies, so no we don’t know those things you expect us to know just cause you know it.
Besides a lot of men don’t want to get married these days. They’ve learned from other men in their life what can happen. A lot of women aren’t worth the effort these days. There’s no benefit to it. Please don’t day something as dumb as living longer or a healthier lifestyle. A man can get that from a girl he’s a the rest of his life w out being married.

[Shelly2002]

The reality is not many women would be happy being a lifetime girlfriend though. Go to a table full of young women and ask them ''Any of you ladies want to be a lifetime girlfriend and never get married, have kids out of wedlock, be happy with a boyfriend forever'' and I can guarantee very few will raise their hands.

[Opinion Owner]

The reality of it too is that it’s not just about what women want now these days. It’s 2024, we’re supposed to all be equal. So women need to respect a man’s feelings as well if he doesn’t want to get married. If he doesn’t want to get married she can continue to be w him or move on in hopes of find someone who wants what she wants.

[Shelly2002]

Would you say my cousin and this other former female work colleague got string along? Both women were honest from the start about wanting marriage as their goal and the men agreed with them. That was laid out on the table from the beginning. Yet, both men still wasted time, and after 4+ years, he gives out a promise ring and starts giving excuses. My cousin's relationship ended shortly after she refused a promise ring, feeling insulted. It's likely that co-worker's relationship ended too. Both women reacted badly to getting a promise ring after all that time together, of their goals getting purposely ignored.
If those men didn't want marriage, isn't he also partially at fault too for still staying with them, just to hope those women would lose interest in marriage? Those women were straight forward about wanting marriage but if he didn't want that too, shouldn't he also have left them?

[Shelly2002]

Obviously the woman is partially at fault too for staying with a man that doesn't want what she wants. Yet if the woman was honest from the beginning but he still strung her along, isn't that bad on his part too?

[osmanthus]

Did you mention to this man that you wanted to get married at some point in your life? If so, this is a preemptive ring to follow a possible engagement ring. If he gave this to you within 3-8 months, likely, if he is conservative, an engagement ring is likely to show up later. A late engagement ring within 8-12 months to a year and a half is still considered 'early' to be married within or at 2 years. It is very rare for a couple to choose to be married after 6 months of knowing each other but it can happen and most likely after 6 months most couples may go straight to the engagement ring. The expectations versus the reality might not have been what you expected but is it such a terrible thing? If you've lived with him for at least 3 years or over a year and he's just now giving this to you it could signal that other factors might have prevented him from offering this to you or else you might feel there are ulterior motives. Most men don't shell out monies to get a woman a promise right to begin with, so the fact that he did means something.

[osmanthus]

Usually, a promise ring signifies the man wants the woman to block out other possibilities, If she is more open with sex with other men or else has other irons on the fire or is dating around, this usually indicates a need for reservation or some degree of exclusivity. (which you can discuss with him). By accepting it, the woman generally agrees that a certain level of sexual exclusivity or not dating around may be expected of her later in the relationship—especially after an engagement ring has been offered and received as a tacit acknowledgement of exclusivity poised for marriage.

[osmanthus]

Hence the emphasis on the word 'promise' which applies to both that neither of them date around or other situation that they discuss to be, well, a promise.

[osmanthus]

Without one, it's technically fair game insofar as a girlfriend or boyfriend deciding they want to go their separate ways in a relationship before an engagement ring. Oftentimes, girlfriend/boyfriend don't discuss such things unless a promise ring is introduced.

[osmanthus]

That or an engagement ring. Either one works.

[osmanthus]

I posit this man might have given a promise ring because the budget might have been too tight for an engagement ring. Most times a promise ring is a lot cheaper than the standard engagement and marriage ring to make it affordable for potential spouses to lock-in a commitment to some degree.

[osmanthus]

It might take some time for him to save up for an engagement ring, so, it's no surprise if the man would give this instead.

[osmanthus]

I would say, realistically, for most people, receiving an engagement ring after, at most, 2 years and before 3 years and getting married within the 3rd or 4th year is commonplace.

[osmanthus]

An engagement usually lasts about 1 yr from the date of having received the engagement ring but in some other case it can take upwards of 2 years or, at most 3 or 4 in extenuating circumstances such as one spouse is off to war or other situations. After that, a potential spouse doesn't have to keep a promise, really,, but they might if they wish.

[osmanthus]

After that 3 or 4 year mark most potential spouses don't keep promise and or engagement rings, if they decide they don't want to marry the person, after all. Usually, these rings can be either returned to the suitor or else handed down or else resold or auctioned or whatever situation the owner decides is appropriate. Some will keep it as a keepsake indefinitely whilst others do away with both rings after a marriage to somebody else.

[osmanthus]

It's not surprising for people to pass down promise and engagement rings to younger family members to give to their potential spouses, too. Some families see buying rings as a luxury, so, to have any ring to give is a considerable uptake and one families and friends appreciate when they can't afford the expense. To each his/her own.

[osmanthus]

I usually recommend that if a man offers a woman an heirloom engagement ring, and she takes it, and later decides not to marry him or vise versa, that she return the engagement ring to him in good or excellent condition, if at all possible. If this is however not possible because of loss or theft or misplacement or other, the man unfortunately might have to acknowledge that it is unrecoverable. Some men don't want to part with their family's heirloom rings and choose instead to wait until marriage to do so, which is completely fine and acceptable. There is no rule stating that a man has to offer the woman an heirloom ring as both a promise and or an engagement ring before a marriage.

[osmanthus]

However, many men to this day and age still do offer an heirloom as an engagement ring and not a promise ring.

[osmanthus]

I recommend men tell women when they offer the ring whether it's an heirloom, or not. This way, the woman has full knowledge of what may be appropriate to do if and when they don't end up married.

[osmanthus]

Otherwise, the woman might end up selling or auctioning it or other and the man in question can become irrationally upset. Rightfully, so, especially if the man did not state this upfront and there was no way to infer unless she asked him.

[osmanthus]

I would never expect a man to give me an heirloom ring as a promise, engagement, or marriage ring, because I am much clumsy and I lose and misplace things easily. I may try my best to keep it but ultimately I have butter fingers and would tell any potential suitor this.

[osmanthus]

I can't tell a man how many times I could have by chance impacted a ring against a door-knob or other surface and almost indented it to oblivion. That's how clumsy I am. Ha-ha. Lord have mercy upon me.

[osmanthus]

It's rare for ex-spouses to keep all the rings or even the marriage or engagement ring but for widowers and women under special circumstances, they can and do.

[osmanthus]

Most warranties for repair or replacement to jewelers last at least 2 years for a promise ring and about 3 years for an engagement ring. A lifetime is for marriage rings.

[osmanthus]

Of course, this also depends on the jeweler. How long they've been around, the quality of rings they produce, etc. A household name or reputable jeweler internationally is less likely to backout of promise to uphold marriage ring lifetime than some antique store in which a person might have found their promise or engagement ring.

[osmanthus]

If the ring was auctioned and bought, for sure, there is no actual repair or replacement guarantee unless the previous owner passes it down. And that is very rare.

[osmanthus]

Generally, too, promise rings are very staid or simple in presentation; somewhere between looking like a plain band to a single set gemstone is usually what a promise ring is going to look like. An engagement ring is usually a bit more elaborate than that with a few other details like a cladaugh or laurels with smaller stones. A marriage ring, for sure, is a considerable step up from an engagement ring and can look almost borderline like a statement ring in some respects but still very much more subdued and formal compared to a statement ring which is designed to be ostentacious and eyecatching.

[osmanthus]

This is usually how people can tell what the intention of the suitor is, whether they are offering either a promise or engagement right and what a statement versus a marriage ring generally looks like so they don't mix it up with other rings.

[osmanthus]

Marriage rings can and often do have inside engravings, too. Engagement rings and promise rings generally do not. Promise ring bands are usually slim about 3-5 mm and an engagement ring somewhat thicker. A marriage ring may be slightly thicker but not overly so. Statement rings usually have a very thick or wide band around the finger and are usually worn by men who have thicker fingers.

[Shelly2002]

I'm actually single at this moment. I was mentioning this because I've heard it happening to a couple women and I really feel for them. Both my cousin and some former female work colleague had that issue. Both were honest from the start about wanting to get married within a certain timeframe and have kids in a marriage. Neither of them wanted to stay dating for endless years. The men still wasted their time after 4+ years of dating and gave them a promise ring. In both cases, there was no actual financial issues and both of those men were already ages 25+, too old to be giving out promise rings.

[osmanthus]

Unsure about whether or not 25+ years is too old for offering a promise ring. It could have helped for these women to have mentioned that if they didn't receive an engagement ring by year 3 that they leave their relationships. Unfortunately, that's the risk we all take in investing 4 years or more. These men also wasted 4 more years, so, it isn't something to see as one party having taken their shot at potential marriage. I don't want to say that these men were insincere but if things don't pan out and they don't marry then nobody is obligated to marry anybody for the sake of having invested that much time.

[osmanthus]

We can't guarantee we'll find the right person in one go whether online, at a marriage event, or outside our residences. And even if a person does get married they might divorce soon after, so, sure, you get married but what would it all mean if it only meant you're together for 1 year then a divorce happens or else maybe the person passes away or other? Would we rather 1 shot it with somebody we just met or be content with the knowledge that even if nothing ever happened a friendship could take its place instead?

[osmanthus]

What I've learned, in a somewhat similar situation, is that it does indeed feel terrible to have invested that much time into a relationship but if it isn't working it likely won't ever work. It's a hard smack to the face yet so many women think, "Well, I've spent x amount of time and money and tears and more on this relationship and don't want to see it die." Only for it to wither away into nothing... I get it... it's heartbreaking and only time will tell if it's worth a 2nd shot again.

[osmanthus]

I think these men likely were sincere in the beginning about a promise ring but didn't know whether to give an engagement ring close to year three, so, they dragged their feet and sat on the fence, because neither of them brought it up. Lesson learned, I suppose.

[osmanthus]

There isn't a manual on this, so, it's more so a play-it-by-ear situation that either flies or flops onto its face. Usually, women expect men to take the lead on this, so, they won't broach the subject of engagement unless their conversations veered onto that lane. Maybe women could change that and start negotiating with men about what they might do after 2 years or sooner.

[Anonymous]

You need to do some serious devil’s advocate questioning to improve your perspective on this.

Just FYI there are LOTS of issues I don’t expect women to (generally) understand the same way men do. For example men tend to fixate more on money/career to the point of isolating themselves after age 30. Men generally don’t care as much about their social life especially when they get older. Not always a good thing for mental health but it’s true.

So why is that? Men know society isn’t going to feel sorry for them if they don’t “man up” to expectations. These are really Freudian expectations of being able to protect and provide for the woman. If they make the cut, great. But it takes sacrifice. I also believe there is some luck involved. If they don’t “make the cut” they often turn to vices (drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc) to self medicate. Although society supposedly allows men to open about their emotions nowadays I still believe deep down most people get much more disgusted with a needy man then a needy woman.

So as a man I can understand that. But women really don’t get it. Women are used to relying on immediate support (emotional, financial, etc) from friends, family and society if they don’t “make the cut”. Men know it’s sink or swim.

[CurvyCandice]

Honey, Man aren't dumb. But today most men are not giving the wedding ring with a proposal even if they want to.

The reason is simple. Government and law Got involved in marriage and Divorce. The forced liability that Comes with Divorce, alimony, and settlement, Has become a negative feature of women today.

So, just forget about marriage. Some women used Divorce to destroy their man, and have ruined the romance for all of us. And set an example, for all men to learn from.

[Shelly2002]

They still shouldn't give any ring at all if he's not going to propose. No ring. There are so many gifts to shower a girlfriend with, many; a necklack, a chocolate box, a teddy bear with a nice card, perfume, etc. Tons of gifts that doesn't involve a ring if he's not going to propose. By giving her a ring and calling it a pre-engagement or promise ring, that right there isn't using common sense and can be seen as even cruel. If he's doing that on purpose then that's a good reason to break up.
Just because laws have gotten tough doesn't give men the rights to purpose dangle the commitment carrot and then take it away from us... just to give us false hopes.

[BetaBucks]

Honestly, divorce laws are what probably 95% of guys I've talked to about the subject worry about when it comes to marriage. The other tiny fraction is just guys being afraid of committing to someone, or just not liking women's nature.

[Shelly2002]

@BetaBucks
I believe some other woman already mentioned the solution of signing the prenup and making the wedding free for him. If that's taken out of the question, I suppose any other reasons would just be him just not wanting to commit just he's just like that.

[BetaBucks]

A prenup doesn't protect from alimony, losing children, child support, and some other risks. Plus, they get thrown out pretty regularly. Plus, many women will refuse to sign one and also refuse to do free weddings.

[BetaBucks]

Let me ask you this, would you be willing to marry without the legal, government paperwork? Like, have a ceremony but no marriage certificate?

[Shelly2002]

@BetaBucks
So what if that were taken out of the question, I sign a prenup, clearly don't want your money and pay the wedding all by myself (I'm clearly not in need to be provided)? If there were no risks and the wedding was free for him, I suppose if he still doesn't want marriage, then he would be full of BS by then?

[WhitneySnow]

@BetaBucks a prenup can protect against alimony. It can’t protect against child support or custody issues. And if you get a really good lawyer they’re hard to throw out. This applies to women who want the guy to sign a prenup too.

[Shelly2002]

@BetaBucks
That's not a marriage. I would still be a girlfriend. Why even do a ceremony if you won't do the traditional marriage?

[Shelly2002]

A commitment ceremony isn't a real wedding.

[BetaBucks]

@WhitneySnow maybe it can somewhat protect sometimes against alimony in some jurisdictions, but it's definitely not universal. Definitely doesn't work where I live. But yeah a really good lawyer helps if you can afford one once all the assets are drained.

[BetaBucks]

@Shelly2002 you proved my exact point. The interest is 100% about securing assets and forced labor for life from the guy. It's hard to imagine why a guy would avoid this lol.

And it's still a marriage without the government. It's not like marriage didn't exist before government certification.

[BetaBucks]

@Shelly2002 it's only not a real wedding, because to you, a wedding means assets and forced labor, no matter what you decide to do after the contract is signed.

[VanillaSalt]

A promissory ring is literally an engagement ring. Both are meant to show intent. The difference is a promissory ring is a stand-in while you work on getting a more expensive engagement ring.


I understand your irritation on the issue but frankly you are lucky to even get that intent. Many people go their lives without ever being that valued. I suggest you stop being upset for what you don’t get and be happy for what you got because at the end of the day it’s just a ring. The symbol don’t matter as much as the intent.


Also in regards to your comparison… Women hold the right to withdraw consent at any time.

[Shelly2002]

If it's literally an engagement ring then there wouldn't be any promissory (for the meantime) ring at all. If he wanted to save money for an actual engagement ring then he would just save money and propose, instead of giving her a pathetic ''I promise I will propose later on'' ring. Besides, an engagement ring doesn't have to be expensive so by giving her the promissory ring, he's already wasting extra money for nothing.
Yes what matters is the intent and that's why a long-term boyfriend shouldn't be giving any ring if he's not going to propose yet. Unfortunately by default, to us a ring in a box means he wants marriage. Honestly the engagement ring is the real promise of getting married, not a promissory nor promise ring.

[Shelly2002]

I wasn't speaking for myself. Nope. I was speaking for other women in those position. Neither my female cousin nor anyone else were happy when their boyfriend of 4+ years gave such ring, but it wasn't to propose. Both were upset.

[VanillaSalt]

@Shelly2002 maybe you are such a catch he wanted to get you before any other man tried? He let you know he’s serious… what more do you want? He can say yes or no at ANY time. He can wait 10 years if he wants and you can leave if he waits too long.

[Shelly2002]

Honestly I wouldn't be a fool to wait that long. A serious man doesn't need to make promises, meanwhile the woman continues being a girlfriend for god knows how much longer. If he's serious about wanting to really spent his life with her, he would go straight forward with the engagement ring and set up a wedding date. That's the real promise.

[Shelly2002]

In other words, get straight to the point, no ''well for the meantime'' waits.

[VanillaSalt]

@Shelly2002 I’m going to be nice here. Never ever ever fucking charge into a marriage if you are not sure. If a woman or man gives you a time frame leave immediately. Red fucking flag from hell chased by murderous bikers followed by the devil himself.

You don’t understand the risk men take in marriage. You think you do cause women have risk in marriage too but the risks are not the same. Furthermore women file 80% of the divorces so maybe they should slow the fuck down too.

I wouldn’t marry. I don’t trust any person let alone women that are known to be emotional to maintain the emotion of love for me for 30 40 50 years until death do us part. Until the laws around marriage change marriage isn’t even a fucking consideration.

But if I were to consider marriage ide want her to know asap that I’m really interested and Ide want a claim because good women are a very rare thing to find. And I need to empathize a GOOD woman because most would be on here bitching they didn’t get the ring they wanted like you are now.

What you are doing over this ring is incredibly rude. That’s how most men will see it. Maybe you think differently and maybe women agree with you but that don’t matter much… if he saw this he’d take back his “fake” ring and his promise and leave. It’s like getting pissed off that someone that had $1000 only gave you a free $5…

[Shelly2002]

The issue is there are fewer women that will be happy being lifetime gfs and bearing your children without complete commitment, with everything included, not just verbal confirmations. The only way to avoid that hassle would be to inform the woman you're dating from the beginning that you guys will never get married, that way it isn't a disappointment for her. Both genders think differently and nope, unfortunately while you're analyzing and interpreting things your own way, to us it's like a different language.
I actually don't care about the price of an engagement ring. It can be very cheap but the point is that that yes, I would like to have kids in a marriage one day. I'm currently single and the years go by fast. Then next thing is I'll be 30 one day and won't want to end up being 30 and still dating, still a man's girlfriend.

[VanillaSalt]

The issue is you think your way is right and our way is wrong. Marriage is a very high risk gamble. I can’t word this right for you women to understand what we risk in marriage. Why can’t you women understand that what you bring to us in marriage is the most valuable thing a man could ever get. More valuable than all the money or riches in the world. If men got rich they would buy what marriage brings. But when divorce happens all of that happiness and value and investment is taken away.

You women have no right to complain that men feel the way they do about marriage because you made marriage the way it is. I’m not going to say men have no fault… Lord knows we’re fuckups… but 80% of divorce is filed by women. So much for commitment. Furthermore according to studies most of these divorces aren’t even because they hate each other. I think it was like in 44% of divorces both sides still love each other but aren’t “in love”…

Other women didn’t value what they had and now all women suffer because of it.

YOU SAID IT RIGHT THERE! “While you’re analyzing and interpreting things in your own way, to us it’s like a different language.” who should change men to fall into line with you or you to fall into line with men? Or we stay different and accept we think differently. You are making a big deal about a ring. You understand how minuscule such an issue is to us right? Is the right kind of ring going to make him love you more? Is it going to keep him faithful? If he’s going to do his thing he’s going to do it with or without a ring. I am translating his actions to you… “I think about your feelings enough to give this to you. I still need more time but I want you to know I’m serious.” Why isn’t that good enough? To have kids to be happy…

You’ve been fed a lie. Marriage isn’t happiness… Happiness is something you find before marriage. Marriage isn’t even that valuable anymore. 56% of marriage end in divorce… 56 fucking percent.

[VanillaSalt]

Question. You want commitment from him. Are you prepared to sign a prenup or give up no-fault divorce meaning you cannot divorce unless he cheats or beats you? If not you don’t get to rush this man. Accept he’s not ready or leave.

[UnicornLobotomy]

You are correct.

[Vesuvius87]

I'm an older woman (unlike the OP) getting married right next month and if requested that, off course. Bring them on... I'll happily sign them. Anything more needed?

[VanillaSalt]

@Vesuvius87 like your name you’re probably going to blow your top when I say this… It’s probably wise of you to settle like that. At 37 even with IVF you probably can’t have kids. That in itself is good enough for me to not be interested as I want a family. But then having to deal with 17 years of men treating you badly… Nthks.

That being said no-fault divorce is a law and you can’t sign it away. Until the law changes I highly recommend men serious about getting married and having a family don’t get married. Sometimes it works out but more often than not it doesn’t.

[Vesuvius87]

My paternal grandmother gave birth to my dad between ages 36-37 and my mother was almost my age too when my brother was born. From my mother's side of the family, both my great-grandmother and grandmother stopped having periods between their mid-late 50's. My aunt (grandma's youngest child) was born when my grandma was between 40-42 years old; without IVF, no treatment at all. I don't doubt it can be harder but it's possible still. I'm still getting periods.

[Shelly2002]

The answer is an obvious yes to both questions.

[godfatherfan]

Yea, I do not understand "promise rings" at all. You are either engaged, or not. If you buy a ring, it should be an engagement ring. If you can't afford a big diamond, I am sure she understands that. What is the point of saying "here is a ring. I promise to buy you another ring at some point?"

[Shelly2002]

Precise. Promise to what? The only promise to commit is the actual engagement ring and the wedding date set on.

[luvstoned4him]

its one of two things: either he is just dipping his toes in , easing his way in to see how it feels or he is just giving you a ring so you won't pester him about marriage

[Shelly2002]

Yeah he's basically full of BS

[Shelly2002]

It leads to the same outcome, that he wants to keep her distracted from getting her hopes up for marriage, keep her dreaming and keep wasting her time.

[luvstoned4him]

@Shelly2002 exactly

[BetaBucks]

Yes, but it's because men and women have been lying to guys about the nature of females from the time they were born. That's why it's so painful for men to find out that women are just like men in so many ways. They want to stay in their delusions, or wallow in their hatred, depending on what side they're on.

[Shelly2002]

Wouldn't the simply solution be finding someone that's on your same page and wants what you want? That would surely reduce the dating pool by a lot but at least there aren't any of those bad judgments nor lack of common sense.

[Purpleronnie]

I like to think I have a fair idea , I’ve certainly spent a good portion of my time endeavoring. Your example though … not sure a promise ring / engagement ring vs promising sex is even in the same ballpark. Although I do agree that there ia a relationship between them. I’m personally not going to propose to a woman that’s going to weaponise sex to control me.

[Shelly2002]

I know it's not the same comparison but it's what would upset both genders since it involves dangling a carrot in front of you, then when you try to reach it, they raise it higher and higher.
We know men love sex a lot and purposely teasing a boyfriend with sex, weaponising is cruel. It's similar to a long-term boyfriend that already knows his girlfriend wants commitment (at some point) but he's purposely dangling the carrot by getting her excited about her engagement ring at last, only for him to say it's a propose ring or pre-engagement ring. She's obviously going to be very upset.

[Purpleronnie]

The purpose isn’t to upset with the promise ring though it’s just not what’s expected or wanted , deliberately teasing making a partner think something is on offer when it not even on the menu is cruel and vindictive. Don’t get me wrong i do understand what your driving at , working towards a life commitment a promise ring carries no weight by comparison but let’s agree to disagree on the comparison. I just can’t reconcile the similarity, . tease and denial just seems so destructive in contract. Thanks for your explanation though

[NathanDavis]

well... if it is a Sunday, Thursday or Monday, I would just watch the football game

so I still get some action...

a nice room and bed, my favorite food and some great football AND MY WOMAN DID IT FOR ME HOW FUCKING NICE !!

[DexWest]

OMG. I was just thinking about posting about this. I’m so damn clueless. It’s literally been pointed out to me that a girl is really into me, and I don’t notice. My friend told me over the weekend that multiple women (did not give a number) were looking at me as I was walking through the city center and I don’t notice it at all.

[Unit1]

Surprise, surprise! Very many men don't have the privilege to touch any girls or women well into their 20s. No wonder they are clueless about girls and women. Men like that are starving from female attention and interaction.

Probably a stupid question from me but is getting an engagement ring for women the same as as having sex?

[Shelly2002]

Both genders were greatly upset by different things. To get an understand of why giving a girlfriend any ring that's not a proposal ring will irritate her, I'll explain why:
We already know it's easy to get sex from a man and that many would happily date us and make us his girlfriend. We know many would be happy with living with a girlfriend, bearing his kids and that's it. However, the keeper is the one that actually offers us commiment, aka marriage. That's the way we score. We don't score by making a man have sex with us. We score by whatever is harder to obtain, by what really is a challenge.
Men score differently. You guys have to put some work in order for any of us to have sex with you. Not many women will just have sex because you're cute. It's beyond just liking you. So if you successfully manage to get a woman to have sex with you, that's scoring for men.
By denying a man sex (teasing him with it), I'm making it harder for him. I'm denying what will be a challenge to him. Similary, when a man denies us commitment, he's making it harder for us because he wasted our time and we have a limited time to obtain that from another man.

[Shelly2002]

So both teasing a man with sex that'll never happen and a woman with a propose/pre-engagement ring you're basically purposely dangling a carrot in front of that person. The person is trying to reach for that carrot but you keep raising it higher and higher. That's cruel

[Unit1]

I see.
I also see now why men marry, marry and marry (and get divorced). They really be marrying for getting sex. The funny part is most marriages I've known ended up completely sexless.

[katiesmuff]

Sometimes I think they are not as clueless as they would like us to think they are.

[Rosexøxø]

Yeah sometimes 👍

[strangeatcircleK]

Honestly, guys have trouble with signals.

It's a thing to be overly nice with a girl and she sees it as being romance when the feeling is friendship

It's tough when both genders see things and gestures, differently

Sometimes we can be pretty dense though 😂😂😂

It's something where, if a guy had a sister, she would say wtf is a matter with you

[Shelly2002]

How troubling is it having common sense that any ring in a box given to your long-term girlfriend is going to immediately be interpreted as a proposal ring? By default more women prefer commitment than sex. For men it's the opposite.

[strangeatcircleK]

To be fair a ring should be clearly stated what it is

But rings can be bought for girls that don't mean proposal but they should be clearly stated early on as such

[Shelly2002]

Yeah, otherwise she's going to assume it's a proposal. Once he gets us high hopes for marriage, there is no going back. If he's not going to propose, to avoid that trouble, how about if he just gives his girlfriend other gifts? It can be a necklace or earrings too. There are so many gifts to give to a woman you're not going to propose yet.

[Anonymous]

"What they're doing is greatly going to offend many women" <-- Who are "they" here? I mean I'm sure this has happened before, but it's not like it's common. Don't pretend like this is a thing.

"It's the equivalent of getting him excited for sex but purposely then denying it when he gets turned on" <-- Now THIS is a thing. It happens FAR more often the the ring scenario you mentions.

Let's keep it real here.

[Shelly2002]

This happened to my female cousin and some other woman I knew that used to be my work colleague until she moved elsewhere. Their live-in boyfriend of 4+ years presented them a ring in a box but called it a promise ring as soon as they noticed their woman was excited. Then she went from excited to very upset. It killed the whole mood.
I'm not sure if the other woman is still in the relationship but my cousin broke up shortly after a couple months of that disappointment, after realizing the guy wasn't serious about getting married one day but giving the ring to distract her from the real goal. This has been becoming a trend lately.
In the case of a woman teasing a man with intimacy but leaving him sexually frustrated, that's mean too. I think it's terrible dangling a carrot in front of the person, esp if you know very well they want it and then take it away or raise it higher.

[Opinion Owner]

My grandfather was struck by lightning while working in a tractor. My older brother was struck by lightning while golfing. What is behind this "trend"?

[Rosexøxø]

Genetics. 👍

[Opinion Owner]

@Rosexøxø What?

[OhLongJohnsoning]

I've actually had that sort of thing happen before. Not like, all decked out like you said but, yeah, she was all into it, and then all the sudden said, "no, i can't"

Yeah, please don't complain about men, until you have a talk with your own gender about NOT DOING THAT

[SugarSugarplum]

Just as clueless as we are about cars, infrastructure, and the Roman Empire.

[Nikki1989]

Many are. They are too socially awkward, and their minds have been brainwashed by what they read online, which doesn't help.

[Shelly2002]

It's sad. Common sense would be not to ever give a long-term girlfriend any ring at all. Men should already know many women still want marriage; just like many men want sex.

[BadApple69]

Yes men are clueless. But on the same hand girls also are clueless because you should expect that from us clueless men.

[exitseven]

a better question would have been "Are there any men who are not clueless about women?"

[Shelly2002]

I'm sure there are but lately, those clueless men are becoming a trend.

[exitseven]

its been a trend for a long time.

[Vegasrunner]

Like most women you're only looking at the finish line. The wedding ring joke is in direct response of years of women pulling the denying sex joke.

[Shelly2002]

Try going out on a table full of young women. Tell them ''ok ladies, who wants to be a lifetime girlfriend, never marry nor have kids, raise your hands''. I'll willing to bet very, very few will raise their hands. That's the reality. Not many women would be ok being a lifetime live-in girlfriend or raise kids out of wedlock.

[Vegasrunner]

@Shelly2002 TY for sharing, however not sure what that has to do with my original statement. Please explain?

[Shelly2002]

The point is most women seek commitment (what fewer men are giving) more than sex (what's so easily found if we open our legs). Waiting till marriage in the past perhaps worked better since it was pretty much a bargain. The guy would get sex but the woman would get commitment and not waste her fertile years.

[Vegasrunner]

@Shelly2002 I think I understand what you're trying to say. My argument is that for many years women have leveraged sex in exchange for intimacy. My claim is that the wedding ring joke is actually men showing how women would react when the shoe was on the other foot. Since men and women are different, you have to use something that women really want in order to properly apply the analogy. In this case commitment.

[Shelly2002]

No one wins in the end since refusing sex and getting even by withhelding commitment is one-sided. It's always one-sided when only one person benefits from doing that but not the other. Indeed it now seems like both gender are playing chess with each other and no one is winning.

[Vegasrunner]

@Shelly2002 You mean it's two sided. One side withholds sex - women
One side withholds commitment - men. So it is now equal. To that point your reaction stems from seeing something women want w/held from them, which is not something society is used to. Both genders are playing chess however I disagree as the winners are top 20% of men as we now not only have a plethora of options to choose from but many of the women have given up on trying to get a commitment. Perhaps guys feel more comfortable making the wedding ring jokes because w/ more options they can easily replace their women.

[LiamJHayden]

Yes. I adore women, but I still find most bewildering at times.

[DrPepper12]

Its fucking stupid. A pre to a pre to an actual action? Id be pissed too! Many men are not good at reading the room.

[Shelly2002]

An obvious rule should be don't ever give us any ring if he's not going to propose, just don't.

[DrPepper12]

💯💯💯💯💯

[Ladsin2]

For men to be successful with women they have to understand women. The same isn’t true vice-versa. That said many men aren’t successful with women. At least 1/3rd of men aren’t. The remainder have to understand women to some varying degree.

[Crazzyyworld]

I have heard of clueless men but I haven’t met them yet.

[DishLady]

Lucky gal.

[Anonymous]

Women like you remind me why I love being single. I got a headache in the second sentence and didn’t even read the rest. Jesus you are annoying.

[Blacksnake285]

I love sleeping alone, I enjoy it while I still can

[Anonymous]

Uh, hun. You women DO do that 💩! Repeatedly!😆😆😆

Are women really this clueless to that?

[Shelly2002]

Purpose dangling a carrot in front of someone (while knowing very well it's something they want) is actually cruel, regardless of which gender is doing. I don't agree with a woman weaponizing sex on purpose either.
My comparison was to point out exactly that; to point out what would irritate the genders the most. Yes to us the equivalent of a long-term boyfriend giving us false hope for marriage and giving us a ring but saying it's a promise ring is if a woman purposely tease a man with sex, making him sexually frustrated, starving.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, it's all about the intent. Just be certain that this is INTENTIONAL. And if it is you need to walk away.
Guys KNOW (I know) that a woman that likes me, that is bonded to me doesn't want to walk away. So it would make it easy to exploit that fact if that were my nature. I see post after post from women on here that says "how do you get a guy to..." and the answer is "YOU DON'T". You have to know when to pull up stakes and walk away from someone who doesn't treat you right. Too many women get a thought in thier head of how a guy should act an then get upset when he doesn't follow suit. This will always be a recipe for disaster.

[Shelly2002]

yeah we can't ever convince a guy to change, that's a fact. Both people have to be right on the same page.

[Opinion Owner]

Why a woman even want to try?
Also, Not everything is "sex" with guys. Why do you women always think that? I don't mind you using the term "affection" or even intimate". But that does not translate directly to sex. And if you think it does then now I see your problem.

[Jay-_-]

Damn people let out their life story on this post 😂

[BLP11520]

It takes a long time to have rudimentary understanding of women, so good for people that are under 30 they don’t understand women

[Anonymous]

Women literally have the exact same problem when it comes to understanding men...

[Skyros]

In some ways just as women misunderstand men. It goes both ways.

[ManInChains]

Women aren’t worth understanding.

[Vesuvius87]

We understand very clearly those are men that don't want marriage. They just want a lifetime girlfriend. It's more than crystal clear.

[Adogdog]

I like to think I know some :)

[Shelly2002]

An obvious one is never to give a long-term girlfriend any ring. You don't want her to be excited about marriage. Once you get our hopes high, there is no going back. She's going to continue hoping for that.

[Adogdog]

Thanks for the tip :)

[grega239]

I am. And I dont Even care to correct that.

[McLlovin]

Touché lol

[Shelly2002]

Not really. It's common sense. What hurts us the most doesn't hurt men the most. Both genders get hurt by different things.

[Anonymous]

They all want power and being in control

[SpeedAnswerDemon]

Tf is a woman