What do you think of these seemingly undeniable "signs" present in all of humanity that seem to unambiguously suggest that Allah is the one true god?

[aa180]

First of all, I'm a proud Atheist who apostatized from Islam a good three years ago and have never looked back. Too many ugly truths about its dogma, law and practices, and founder were all too much to simply sweep under the rug. No good, just, and moral god could possibly have decreed such a faith.

However, to this day there remains none but these few quite startling and unusual facts, that, although never tempt me to believe again, make me wonder what on earth is going on. They seem a little too confronting and numerous to simply dismiss them as being mere coincidences.

The first of which is simply the way the name of Allah in Arabic is written on the back of our hands and on our index fingers. There are two ways of writing Allah, with the main difference being the formation of the last letter. Both of these variations occur in our hands. This is the first:

And this is the second:

Probably important to note that when Muslims pray, they raise their right index finger as shown above while making eye-contact with it and professing their faith. So while they are pretty much saying "Allah is my God", the very name of that god is staring right back at them. Kinda spooky.

Next, we consider numbers. Below is an image showcasing the two Arabic numbers written in the palms of everyone's hands.

The number on the left is 81 while the one on the right is 18. Add these two together and you get 99 - the precise number of names (and attributes) Allah has according to the Quran. Not enough? Well if we subtract instead and do 81 - 18 we end up with 63 - the precise age Muhammad passed away marking the completion of Islam being "revealed". You can't make these things up folks.

Finally, we have two natural formations - a tree and a rock - each resembling a man in a particular position of a Muslim when offering prayer, namely ruku (bowing) and sujud (prostration).

The tree is facing Mecca by the way.

So what do y'all think?

[androcentrist]

at some point in history, the Arabic language was invented, or rather codified, by specific individuals, just like every other living language. when some desert-dwelling tribesmen were looking to make up names for things, why would they not start by looking at their own bodies? every pattern you see that seems to prove the intelligence of a designer only proves the intelligence of the person who notices these details and tries to imagine a greater meaning behind them. you might as well claim that the proof of God is that churches exist. People build churches, and they build languages, and they build religions. no God is required.

[aa180]

That's a good theory, though not sure how plausible it is to suggest that Arabs modeled their language based on the shapes that occur on our bodies. The majority of their alphabet consists of letters that don't resemble a single thing.

[NineBreaker]

I'm of the opinion that we only see things in ways that are framed based on our experiences and biases. It's sort of like people seeing the face of Jesus on everything, including burnt toast. I don't see Jesus in that bread; to me it's Weird Al Yankovich. It doesn't make someone's experience invalid. It is what it is.

The human mind is equipped to notice patterns. Are all of these signs from God? Maybe. Is it possible that they aren't intended to be specific signs of the Divine whether or not there is a Devine? I have no idea.

In any case, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

[aa180]

I think everyone on here more or less agrees with you.

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

I respect you, but I cannot agree with everything you had said as the rock is just erosion taking place. And you know when they started writing Allah they probably made it off the fact of that it could be made with your hands.

[valkrenx]

Well I'm not sure about the rocks part but the Allah part was actually made that way because the word itself has no plural version. In English we can say God and God's, this doesn't apply with Allah, that's the actual reason. So TBH the hand thing is a pretty cool coincidence :)

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

Oh cool!

[aa180]

I respect you too. But doesn't erosion normally produce random formations that don't resemble a thing? Why all of a sudden you get a rock that looks exactly like a man prostrating in prayer? And what about the tree? But the Arabic language and letters pre-existed Muhammad and Islam, i. e he had no choice in inventing the letters to deliberately exploit the shape of our hands and fingers to suit them. Plus, I doubt he would have been that clever to do that.

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

Good theory.🤔

[valkrenx]

I agree, that rock deformation looks crazy identical to a human in that position. Which country was this image found in? I wonder, would carving be a possibility at all? Like someone carving the rock into that shape? We would need to see when this rock was exposed

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

I shall look into the matter I will probably be able to find where that is if so I can study it closely

[aa180]

@valkrenx I always forget the exact country but I remember thinking it was Lebanon when growing up (which is coincidentally where my parents are from). I suppose it's possible for it to have been carved, you're right. Maybe we should do a little more digging before we jump to conclusions.

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

Yes we need evidence to prove it

[Intraluminal]

@valkrenx

Except I'll bet that THE ORIGINAL lettering wouldn't have fit to whatever extent you feel it "fits" now.

[aa180]

But I know the tree is 100% real. There are videos on YouTube of Muslims praying right next to it. Sad thing is not that long ago it was cut down by hate-filled Islamaphobes. Interesting fact though: It's in Australia which is where I'm from :)

[valkrenx]

:) I like how this chat went, investigating life with strangers lol, respect to both of you I'm enjoying myself. Great topic by the way aa180

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

Wow people need to except people no matter what race or religion. If someone cut us open we all are the same

[aa180]

I also like you both. Thanks for taking interest in my post :)

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

No problem I found it very interesting.

[aa180]

I love a young inquisitive lady like that, always seeking new knowledge and learning about other people. Keep it up :)

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

Thank you I actually want to become someone that studys religion but my parents don't approve but I don't care.

[aa180]

Aw, they probably just see the effect religion can have on fundamentalists and don't want you to turn out like them. But I'd say they have nothing to worry about :)

[Emo_Hipster_Cat]

I know

[kaylaS91]

I'm not yet fully convinced.
To know for sure, we must first slaughter a goat, gang-bang a virgin (using the goat's blood as lube), and get comfortable until the 72 virgins arrive.

[aa180]

That's exactly my point as well; too many ridiculous teachings for us to give in to these bizarre occurrences in nature which is why I'm not convinced either.

[valkrenx]

You guys are so uneducated or ignorant, no where in the Quran does it mention 72 virgins, goats blood as lube, or any gangbang. I'm an aethist by the way but have studied religions for the past 2 years and seem to be heading towards Islam as I've noticed a lot of the "common knowledge" that we believe about it is so very far from the truth that it made me wonder who spreads these kind of misconceptions so much... Then I see you too and I know exactly what kind of idiots spread sht ^^

[aa180]

@valkrenx The virgin stuff is in the hadith. I'm aware there's nothing about goat's blood but I understood she was exaggerating to make a point. Other teachings of Islam are immensely bizarre (there used to be a Quranic verse permitting a woman to breastfeed a grown man so that he will see her as a mother-figure and not lust after her). Anyways, look up a guy called David Wood on Youtube, he exposes this stuff the best and is the reason I left Islam.

[kaylaS91]

@valkrenx call us uneducated, then use religious text to back up your counter argument?
LOL
media.giphy.com/media/N8FlJSZmLFj6o/giphy.gif

[valkrenx]

I get the over-exaggeration but still even the base of the information is false, remember the Hadith are opinions of normal people who were around the prophet, these statements are collected and trialed to confirm which seem to be very popular in his time and which less popular. But it doesn't mean it's accurate, actually most of the hadith is inaccurate but is there still because we can't rule things out without evidence. So best of all is to check with the Quaran and ull notice no such thing was given about 72 virgins

[TripleAce]

OMG
That gif

Sooo bad lol

[valkrenx]

Hey @kaylaS91, you gave no reference, I'm clearing your argument because I've read and studied the Quaran for 2 years (aswell as other religions) and nowhere does it say 72 virgins in there, come reference the Quaran if you can I dare you since your so educated :)

[valkrenx]

Yeah clearly you can see what she spends most of her time doing 😂 😂 references gifs but not info leeel

[aa180]

@valkrenx Hadith are not opinions. They are recorded sayings and doings of Muhammad. 'I saw Muhammad do this..", not "I think/belive Muhammad did this..". Of course, many hadith are unreliable which is why the scholars go to extreme lengths to track down the chain of narration and verify the authenticity. The hadiths that are the most trustworthy are deemed "sahih (correct)" while the rest are considered "daeef (weak)". And even just browsing the sahih ones, you will still come across many unflattering things about Muhammad. That's all I'm saying.

[kaylaS91]

@valkrenx Kindly refrain from such misogynistic behaviour.
Regarding your claims of having spent two years 'studying' religions, would you please explain how Islam in particular is studied? I mean, all I've witnessed in my own observations and read-ups on scriptures from the Quran and whatnot is a bunch of people choosing to make their own interpretations off of hugely primitive occurrences. For example, claiming that Islam is the religion of peace. As if the boatloads of trucks driving into markets and such doesn't exist: Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun.'

[valkrenx]

Ok and I agree, you said it perfectly it was the sayings of the prophet, I just wanted to add that all scholars have agreed that he was a human being who gave his opinion often and a lot were not confirmed by the angel or God so reasonable to keep it separate from the Quaran.

[aa180]

@valkrenx But bro, she's quoting form the Quran right now, not the hadith. The universal consensus amongst Muslims is that everything in the Quran came directly from God through Gabriel.

[valkrenx]

KaylaS91 please don't speak like SJWs and the debate will go fine 😂 😂, now you brought a great point about killing (I've yet to see the reference you ignored to give about the 72 virgins hehe).
So as you should know, the Quaran was written and completed over 60 years! So it's important not to ignore the context and relatable events happening during when this part of the Quran was written. It was during time of war (not peace, see now it makes sense, it was a guideline of who can be killed during combat without sin)
Also I'd like to add incase your part of a different religion, that all religions have a section that seems very very barbaric! But put the contexts right and they make more sense as any real life situation :)

[valkrenx]

@aa180 hah sry that paragraph "ok and I agree" was actually for you, I'm just a slow typer :) it wasn't a response to Kayla, I was still typing silly me 😋

[aa180]

@valkrenx Ah, okay. My bad bro

[lord_chilled]

@valkrenx you are leaning towards islam? like the religion written by the the pedofile that conquered tribes by force and committed countless war crimes as part of his power struggle?

if you want a religion of peace, consider buddhism

[TripleAce]

@lord_chilled ah even though nothing is perfect we know he'll point out some Buddhist flaws and how they are killing muslims lol

[lord_chilled]

@TripleAce yeah. But like compare that to violence by other religions. I figured that may be his response as well.

[TripleAce]

@lord_chilled he will talk about how people in the past killed for religion lol
heard it all before though

[valkrenx]

If you know that I'll bring up the monks that killed Muslims and ruined perfectly normal peaceful Muslim businesses and burning down homes... If you knew I'll bring it up then why present yourself as a hypocrite? Would of been safer to actually talk logically no? Would you by any chance call these group of aggressive monks hypocrites andjust unlucky grouped of "bad apples?" I wonder then why you don't think Isis is also a group of "hypocrites and bad apples" you really dug yourself a hole on this one but I'm glad coz there may be some logical part of you that would agree to this point. If not your really wasting your time and everyone else's ^^

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx because like he said. A few acts don't equal many acts done by muslims

But why do you think they did that to the muslims. Do you know? Who drew blood first? Do you know?

[lord_chilled]

@valkrenx not a hypocrite at all. Buddhists are still by far the most peaceful religious people on earth. Even with the recent violence you mentioned. Buddhists who committed crime canmot even be compared to other religions, especially muslims.

Muslims have been number 1 at terrorism and crime for quite a while now.
Religion of peace- what a joke

[TripleAce]

@lord_chilled lol
From 1970-2017 there has been
20000 deaths
50,000 injuries

All from over 100+ Islamic attacks

[valkrenx]

Wait wait, 2, 000,000,000 Muslims, and only 20,000 deaths that you could find out of the other 5 billion ppl? Surely if they weren't peaceful they could do more? Dumb as a fucking chicken nugget tbh...

[valkrenx]

The US killed Way more than than for an ILLIGAL war... Do a bit of research and find out why, it's really sad and puts them to shame being Christians...

[aa180]

@valkrenx Maybe his point is not that Muslims are all violent, maybe he's just saying that they've killed more people than any other religion (which I don't even know is true but that's his claim).

[aa180]

Ah, just seen your other comment. Ignore what I said.

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx id say injured is worse... no legs, maybe you can't breath anymore, maybe you need machines to live... maybe no arms...
50k injured
20k dead

The world's confidence shattered - far more destructive
if you didn't realize, these deaths are rarely to kill massive amounts of people because they simply can't, if they had a nuke, 100% they would use it... it's more to destroy the confidence of people... to spread fear and hysteria that muslims are coming...

that's far more dangerous than 20k dead and 50k injured
look at what 9/11 did with, according to you, only 3000 people dead

you'd obviously be a bad terrorist lol

[valkrenx]

Yeah I understand, because there are more people involved? He wants to compare 500mil population with 2bil lol... I'm just saying it's not enough to say Muslims are a religion of war and are not peaceful. Really hurts my brain cells lel

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx don't start justifying murder by other murders lol
that's not going work here

[valkrenx]

"Muslims are coming" LOL they've been everywhere for many many years wtf does that mean? They live and populate a large proportion of every single country around the world... Lord give me a logical point Please I'm begging coz I'm answering without thinking right now...

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx their intent is not peaceful... not at all
and that goes for many

the war related attacks you speak of are military affairs...
not some nutcase that thinks he's doing Allah's work by going in a dance club and shooting off 50 people with his machine gun...

see the difference?

if you wanna get back at the christians... I don't care, but go attack their military...

[valkrenx]

Don't justify murders with other murders? Where did I say it's ok to kill because others killed?

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx the religion has only been around for 2000 years or so.. it's a new religion, they are coming because they believe the world ends with them... they believe their god is the only one... they believe that only your brother and sisters can be muslim... they also believe if you do not believe in islam, you are an enemy... I know all this because other muslims tell me out it is... friends that just speak the truth

[valkrenx]

THAT GOES FOR MANY? LOL how many bro please tell me how many is "many", come put ur words where your mouth is, you can do it! Give me a number :D

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx yes you are defending islamic attacks because Christians killed too
so what...
just because asshole A rapes doesn't mean I can use that as a defence

[valkrenx]

Firstly it's 1400 years old, 2ndly what's wrong with believing there's 1 God not 300 of them fighting in Mount Olympus like the Greek mythology? And what do you mean only your brothers and sisters can only be Muslim?

[valkrenx]

No I was comparing, if 10 students in a class test, and 5 cheat, should I punish only 1? Where's your logic?

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx look I don't have issues with muslims for the most part... but the way the leaders run the countries is an issue, the propaganda...
most are good people but when you have leaders that are trying to push a certain agenda
--> guess what, it will get some people
--> look at syria, people don't even know what the hell they are fighting for, you have rebels, military, and people just trying to get the hell out... its not entirely their fault

mosques are the best place to get radicalized... my friends cousins and their friends all get fucked when they go to mosques... cause you meet all kinds of people there.. good ones and crazy ones

it's just too mixed up right now
maybe in the future it will be better, again, its not the people, it's how islam is presented that's the issue

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx 1400 years is very new, meaning it's closest to humanity as we see today, which also means farthest from the beginning of time, which in term implies more false...
older religions hold more truth as they are the closest to the dawn of man kind

nothing is wrong with one god, but the problem is that creates conflict as you will not accept others...
you see polystheist religions will accept islam and your god, which theirs.. you will only accept yours and reject others... that creates problems = bad = violence

5 students cheat, the context is different for each
christians might have killed before, when we didn't even have cars to drive
muslims are killing today, 2018

--Im not christian by the way... just using that

[valkrenx]

Wait wait, if my role model is Brad Pitt and yours is 3 different actors, why would that be a problem? Why are you putting words in other ppls mouths? Why are you assuming that they must kill you for different beliefs? AND FINALLY if they did believe that, we would all be getting attacked by every 3rd person we meet... Dude I know your angry about what's happening in the world, I am too, I'm also not a Muslim but as I said I can accept others believeing what they want just like they have no problem with me believing that there's a large chance God doesn't exist. Don't blame a whole family if you were bit by their dog...

[valkrenx]

Also Christians and such are also killing today 2018, you think prisons are just filled with Muslims XDD? You just hear it on the corrupt media that if a Muslim kills someone it's a "terrorist attack" (that's fine but) when a Christian kills or mass murders they call it "lone wolf attack" or not even show it on media.

[lord_chilled]

@valkrenx 20k kills?
Really?
I think you must not have counted the muslim on muslim crime, which us where the majority of deaths pile up!

Its way beyond that.

And dont compare it to christian kills. We are talking about murders in the name of religion or god.
Christians have killed other christians and non christians for non-religious reasons!
We dont go around killing in the name of god!
At oeast no one i have heard of in the past 10-20 years did. But every single person on the planet is familiar with the bigoted, extremist religious murders by islamists. Dont even try to compare. No religion, christiam, hindus, buddhists, no one, no one comes close. No one comes close to killing for "god" or religion in this day and age like islamists do.

I guess thats what happens when you follow a warmongering pedophile rapist like your prophet.

I applaud anyone who is NOT a terrosrist after following the bs leader you worship.

[TripleAce]

@lord_chilled yea 20 deaths only from direct terrorist attacks.. and 50k injuries, now remember injured can be horrific since they generally are meant to die from the attack, so like no legs for example you know. not just a bullet to the arm Ike most American wounds, or a knife in the leg kinda thing... these are probably horrific injuries... like the one in the Boston marathon type stuff

for sure if you include Muslim on Muslims it's waaaay higher,, like way
these figures are ONLY terrorist attacks, not including war, military, gang violence in homelands, etc

[TripleAce]

20k*

[lord_chilled]

@TripleAce yeah

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx well the problem with a one God ideology is that you become segregated... Muslims have to choose their life based on disgrace from their culture race and family vs being natural

I wanna marry a Muslim girl but can't and it becomes a huge issue
I know a guy that is Jewish and wants to marry a Muslim and will --> poor guy is subjected to have to convert just because her father is some nutcase that just won't allow it

like you know... it's too much

[TripleAce]

@valkrenx well to be deemed a religious crime there needs to be a religious component to it
lone wolf from law Vegas is just some nut case shooting people

a guy in a club shooting people and screaming allahu akbar while shooting people is a religious hate crime - so it's classified as terrorism... since its trying to destroy the confidence of people

[lord_chilled]

@TripleAce yeah i have seen that a lot. The only guys that didn't, were the guys who " stole" their girls. But that comes at the risk of being knifed

[Poppykate]

I do have an opinion, but I don’t want to offend. All I can say, is that many religions could do the same.

[aa180]

I believe this is a safe place to exchange views and ideas. Your opinion is welcomed, I will not take offense. Plus it's all in the way you state it. Two people can have the exact same opinion about something but one sparks anger and controversy because he/she says it obnoxiously while the other sparks thought and respectful debate because he/she knows how to communicate it appropriately. And I get the sense you are of the latter :)

[Poppykate]

I have very strong views that will offend. So I wish to remain silent.

[aa180]

I'm not even Muslim so how can you offend me? (and no one on here who has commented so far is a Muslim either)

[Poppykate]

I think it’s a very violent religion. I started reading about Islam because I have a dear friend who is Muslim. I support her, and her choice in religion. However, I myself could never join a religion or support a religion who, will in short, ‘exert their power in contending with an object of disapprobation’. E. g. (anyone who isn’t Muslim) including the use of warfare. Religion is a very personal choice, that often connects us to our ancestors. I won’t have a stranger, from an unvisited place, tell me how I may or may not prayer.

[aa180]

How is that an offensive view? Everything you said is totally respectable and I agree with you 100%. This is why I never go back to Islam regardless of any of these supposed "miracles" that I've shared above. You're doing good.

[Poppykate]

To a Muslim, it would be highly offensive!. As it speaks out against their religion.

[aa180]

Not always. I was a very devout Muslim who loved Islam with my heart and soul. I then came across a Christian who went around exposing (from the Islamic sources) all the violent and hideous aspects of Islam and I did not feel offended one bit. He opened my eyes and set me free so I'm really quite thankful I came across him.

Muslims only get offended when they think you're lying and deliberately trying to slander their religion to make everyone turn against it. But obviously that's not what you're trying to do so it's a shame when they don't understand that.

[Poppykate]

I would hate to see a world with so much violence. I think life’s lesson is so simple, ‘love three neighbour’. More tolerance, kindness and understanding by all. The world would be a happier, more peaceful place to live in. We as individuals, need to make a conscious effect to be more peaceful people. Because it’s not ‘the world’ that is violent, but the people within it.

[aa180]

I'm petty sure the majority of Muslims share you view completely. Most are really peaceful people of the type you describe they're just unaware of what their religion actually teaches. The violent ones who know the religion well are a minority.

[ladsin]

We're pattern seeking creatures. I think they're silly.

[aa180]

But patterns that are unambiguous, as bright as day and occur in EVERY individual who ever lived shouldn't mean anything? They are just "silly"? It's not like I'm looking at a an ordinary rock and saying I think it's trying to tell me to eat lemons because I see it as shaped like one. To me this is completely different.

[ladsin]

You're looking at an ordinary tree.
An ordinary hand.
And an ordinary rock.
i.pinimg.com/.../...48ef384b385bd149129ade75e6.jpg
What does this make you think of, is it indicative of anything?

[aa180]

To me nothing's obvious or catches the eye. But lol an ordinary tree? You see trees with a bowed trunk like that all the time do you? That are also facing Mecca as well do you? Which enchanted forest do you live in?

[ladsin]

That same site convinced Francis Collins, the head (former I think) of the Human Genome Project of the trinity and christianity. Does the waterfall cause you concern that perhaps christianity and the trinity are true?

[aa180]

LOL what a funny guy. Ok, I can see your point but I still think the supposed "signs" that I'm showcasing are a little more persuasive than a waterfall split into three separate streams. Plus, he only saw that one thing, I've shared multiple ones that all point to the same thing.

[ladsin]

cha-la-la.com/.../IMG_0332.jpg
cdn.instructables.com/.../...NS0H9T4LUWE.LARGE.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/14ahcub.jpg
How many do you need for them to start becoming compelling?

[aa180]

Dude, the guy in the toast can easily be Bob Marley. Just kidding, yeah I can see how in the end they don't amount to anything. Still glad I shared it just to see everyone's take on it.

[ladsin]

Yeah, I don't blame you. This pattern recognition is a great boon to us in that it allows us to pursue science and learn about the world, but it needs to be checked or else we go into parallelomania. Remember that at one point in time the belief that lightning was a weapon cast by a god was commonplace.

[aa180]

Yeah I know about that. Back then the tree had a mind, the wind had a mind, etc. Now people just dump all those powers on one supreme being and call it monotheism.

[ladsin]

Certainly. Many people are aware of this, but still find themselves yelling at their car when it won't start.

[aa180]

Yeah it's a strange phenomenon to observe. But I guess it's not quite the same in that they don't actually believe yelling at it will solve the problem, it's just how they air their frustrations. Or like when a person says "good boy" to a dog, they don't actually believe the dog is understanding their words, it's just something that people seem to do. We like to communicate to everything.

[ladsin]

You'd be surprised on the latter example. Some neuroscientists are even trying to prove that dogs have complex emotions. I think the last test I saw was flawed. The scientist hooked his dog up to an fmri and would do different things like calling it's name to see what neuronal activity would happen. He concluded that the dog loved him, or some sort of pretty utopian thing. I don't think that's conclusive because the dog could simply have an association of owner and food. It needn't be all flowery.

Also in regards to animals you might be interested to know that we used to actually have trials for animals. For example in Europe there was a case in which rats were found eating a body, and we have the transcript of their "lawyer" arguing that they could not be present in court out of fear of cats XD
We also had trials for a bull that killed a man, and even inanimate objects like an axe that injured someone.
I'm going to write a myTake about this now XD Thanks

[aa180]

You seem to have good knowledge about a lot of things which is admirable. I find that many experiments are flawed to begin with just with how easily one can introduce a certain bias into it, of which there are many.

Ahahahaha wth. So much of how we behaved in the past just seems so foolish now looking back at it. Yeah bro, go for it! Glad I was able to give you an idea :)

[valkrenx]

It seems like 95% of people here ranting and attacking the presenter are as dumb as the answers given here LOL. The dude is on your side you dumb shits! Not hard to read information instead of stopping at "Muslim" and go numb with stupidity lol...

Anywayyy, I found the post very interesting and I understand the 2nd picture forming the name Allah but the first I didn't get because the first letter on the left has no thumb or anything looping that letter so was wondering if maybe you could explain it a bit more?

by the way I find that the Quaran has way too many phenomenal scientific facts that I'm so shocked I'm really planning on converting, it seems to be a "manual of life" to a certain extent lol kinda cool

[aa180]

Thanks for actually reading everything I wrote and being so mature.

Hmm, not sure what you mean. How the last letter extends beyond the thumb, you mean?

Nah bro, it has SOME scientific facts but also gets things wrong. It says that sperm originates between the backbone and the ribs. It also says the sun sets in a pool of murky water. Even in the hadith, you read that Muhammad gave scientifically inaccurate teachings. He was asked why a child sometimes resembles his mother and other times he resembles his father. Muhammad replied that it all depends on whose discharge is released first during sex. I mean, women don't even have a discharge anyway. And if they did, no scientist will tell you the child's appearance basically depends on who cums first, it's all to do with chromosomes and what not. It's not a reliable or morally good "manual". Read surah Taubah - the last major surah to be revealed and look at how violent the commands are. Nah bro, don't convert.

[valkrenx]

Hah no problem, I mean we're supposed to at least do the reading part just like in an exam, why answer if not read right? 😃 😍

Anyway yeah I actually came to that bump in the road with Mohammed giving wrong scientific info, but after watching many debates and interviews of scholars I've found that they all agree that Mohammed was a human being! And that he didn't have all the answers, he gave his opinion often and it's noted that people even had to ask him "on this statement you gave, has it been confirmed by God or is it an opinion of yours?" and most of the time he said it was his opinion. So that's why hadeeth is just a general understanding of that time of the common people, it wasn't always confirmed.

The murky water thing, I don't recall reading anything of that sort in the Quaran, was that one of the many mistakes of the prophet?

[valkrenx]

OK so my bad I was asking about the last letter "h" in Arabic, why does the short thumb in the first picture represent that letter? Shouldn't we have a long curved thumb for this to actually make sense or am I understanding this wrong xD

[HotJealousy]

Nah, you're seeing patterns where they don't exist and giving a tree meaning it does posses. These are over 3 trillion (10^12) trees on Earth, the chances that one has mutated or been diseased and has bent over is almost 100%. As for the hands, that just proves that we fold our hands and produce folds so aid with it.

Also, the Arabic language is a human construct, it was developed by humans, I could easily make a language made only of shapes you see on our bodies, that doesn't mean that the religion that's attached to the langauge is true.

[aa180]

Totally, but the fact that it just so happens to be facing mecca (of all the 360 degrees of freedom that it had), it's pretty reasonable to at least initially think something of it.

Someone else brought that up too and I just responded with two things: 1) Arabic existed before Muhammad was even born and before Allah was the chosen name for a god. 2) The majority of Arabic letters do not resemble a single part of our bodies. So hence why I don't deem that argument fitting.

[HotJealousy]

I could say the human hand has these letters on it. W, r, u, i, o, h, l, c, v, n, m without having to use two hands. With two hands you can easily get t, y, s, d, g, k, z, x, b, p. That doesn't mean anything, it just shows that we have a language and we can see patterns where we want to. And facing mecca is questionable, I might be pointing within 90 degrees of mecca but it won't be exactly at mecca and even if it was that means nothing, mecca only has significance due to people giving it significance.

[TripleAce]

Omg. Only muslims lol. And its universal cause even the muslims around me. And we are probably countries apart, feel the same way

Yes your religion is the best. Its the truth and everything else is second at best. Yes exaclty lol
Allah is the only god. For everyone. The quran is the only truth
Everyone should be muslim or they are going to the 7th hell. Exaclty you got it

Note: islam is one of the newest religions. Therefore making it furthest away from the beginning of humans and earth. Meaning its the LEAST true
Religions that are the oldest are probably the most true

[aa180]

Did no one read my first paragraph?

[TripleAce]

Skipped it lol
Went straight to the interesting stuff haha
But read it now

[aa180]

Good.

[androcentrist]

well it's hardly the newest religion, given that both Mormonism and Scientology exist. Both may seem rather silly to us, but Christianity was silly to the Romans. give it a few more centuries, somebody will be dedicating their charitable works to L Ron Hubbard or executing those who blaspheme against Joseph Smith. everything becomes impressive if it manages to stick around long enough.

[TripleAce]

@androcentrist bro out of the 100's of religions you name 2 nonsensical religions that are newer lol
That makes islam new. Being 3rd in a line of up of so many is new bro
And scientology we don't count. Its nothing to do with god
So second in line lol

[Cammy137]

All religions believe they have signs that support their claims beyond all others. Yet all the evidence is minor things largely relying on interpretation.
The first picture for example, it doesn't even match up properly. All you're focussing on is the 5 main lines. Yet the thumb one goes above the rest and there are other markings will no representation whatsoever.
The second picture as well. I compared it to the written word "Allah" and its not remotely similar. There may be a similar number of lines but it doesn't doesn't look anything like that.

You're simply seeing what you want to see or what others want to see. Its like when people see Jesus on toast or their cats ass.

[kingofthellamas]

I think if you try hard enough you can see sign of religion everywhere. there's a fun picture of a slice of toast that supposedly looks like Jesus. If you look hard enough at shape of your hands you can see the word Wii. But no one is claiming Nintendo to be god. You can see whatever you want. As an experiment sit in your room and see how many random things look like the number 11. They'll be loads. That doesn't make 11 god.

[Tushnim]

Among other things... Language is an arbitrary and inefficient human social construct. Any semblance and resonance it bears with the human body is therefore either coincidental or intentional. Which is to say if I form another language, like esperanto maybe, and make it spell Zeus in a script that resembles the human face... it won't indicate anything other than my conscious or subconscious or accidental imitation of the signified by the means of the sign :)

[aa180]

What about the rock and the tree? They're completely natural with no human construction. Also, what you're saying makes it sound like the person is deliberately and freely choosing his written language to resemble the human anatomy. But Arabic was developed long before Islam and Muhammad, he had no choice in the way the letters were formed. So how can it be intentional? And can we really say that Allah's name appearing TWICE, in both written variations, AND have those numbers ingrained in the palm of one's hands which also carry a hidden meaning of Islam, all be just one big fat coincidence?

[Tushnim]

The rock came before the concept of any god could have originated... rocks do take a while to get weathered into such shapes. On the other hand, one can also claim that the rock is doing Shashakashan, a posture very common in yoga. Because that too looks like this.
Same with the tree, although I don't know if the tree is real. But one can also say that both the rock and the tree are kowtowing, a Chinese tradition with no link to Islam.

[aa180]

Yeah totally. But wouldn't that be what a god would do? He'd create these "signs" like the rock in this instance long before he reveals his religion to make it clear he had Islam in mind from the beginning? But I see your point that it resembles other postures as well.

The tree is definitely real. There are videos on YouTube of Muslims praying right beside it. I'd have no problem believing that too but the tree just happens to be facing Mecca. Of all the 360 degrees of freedom it had, it chose the direction Muslims face when praying. That's why it's not as ambiguous as you're making it out to be.

[Tushnim]

Also, that is how coincidences work.
The language obviously came before islam did, since Arabic evolved from the 18-15th C BC language known as proto-sinaitic, and Islam came into being during 7th Century CE. But you're forgetting how languages evolve and human cognition works. Notions are drawn from what pre-exists in the linguistic lexicon and not vice versa. The very word Islam is drawn from three different roots of Arabic etymology, meaning wholeness, safeness, submission and peace. It was consciously created - the word Islam - to mean all of this. So it is not difficult to see that how one could easily have taken a word that exists and put it to be used in the Islamic lexicon.
Besides, proto-sinaitic has branched into a lot of the present-day languages. No other language has anything to say about any other religion except for their own either.
Besides, if you pay too much attention to such superficial structures, would you also say that an upside down dog is actually god?

[Tushnim]

There you are then. God was probably telling us to be humble and kowtow. Or to be healthy through practise of yoga :). That is, if you believe the existence of one or more hods in the first place.

[Tushnim]

As for the tree, again, if dated, it could either have been formed this way before Islam did... which would mean the notion of Mecca being important was not a factor. If say instead of Mecca Islam had decided to make Medina the direction to be faced, then the tree would have just looked cryptic in a different context. Right?
And if it formed after the inception of Islam, then it was pointless of a supposed god to create it since all Muslims were already praying facing the desired direction.

[Tushnim]

As for the palm lines, there are way too many lines on our palms, tbh. 18 and 81 can only be seen if those are the only lines you're focusing on. I mean seriously, my palms don't even look like the pictures lol.
And Prophet Muhammad's age before death is not something so serious that every human being would have it inscribed on their palms since the evolution of humanity.
Also, we can probably interpret those numbers in a bunch of different contexts ;)

[Intraluminal]

You can read any number of things into random events by simply picking and choosing the ones that fit your theory.

This type of error is frequently encountered when scientists use the data from one experiment to find something else.

As humans we have tendency to see patterns and find correlations. It's part of what makes us so smart, but at the same time, this ability/impulse causes us to find correlations and patterns (especially faces) where there are none.

[aa180]

I see your point but I fail to see how everything shown above is some sort of a hallucination or exaggerated interpretation of what I can clearly see.

[Intraluminal]

I NEVER said it was a hallucination. It's simply a question of picking and choosing (called cherry-picking in America) the data that supports your argument. For instance, you never ask WHY Allah is NOT written say, on our faces or in our eyes, both of which would be as meaningful as our hands.

Also, you never ask yourself how many OTHER non-religious words could be made to "fit" the back of your hand. I don't know Arabic, but I bet a LOT of words could be made to fit the back of your hands.

This "failure to app attention to counter-examples" is what is used to prop up religion.

[aa180]

So hypothetically if God showed you signs in your hands, you will reject them on the basis of "well why didn't you choose my face as well?". Is that what you're saying? I'm confused.

Well I wouldn't say it's not possible, but Allah having a perfect fit should spark curiosity at least.

The counterexamples for me are all the hideous teachings and untrustworthy character of Muhammad. Hence why I still don't believe. Other people seem oblivious to this which I think is what you're saying.

[Intraluminal]

Another example is if you look at the palms of the hands, those lines make the LATIN number 4.

4+4=8, and 8 is the number of STRAIGHT lines in the words "religion is silly" when you write it in cursive.

Also if you look t the finger, instead of writing Allah, it writes in English the word "awl" which is a sharp pointed tool that anyone who believes in religion should stick in their eyeball.

[Intraluminal]

Basically, if you pick ONLY those things that support your belief, you will always be able to find these coincidences.

[aa180]

Haha, that's pretty clever if you thought of those yourself.

[Intraluminal]

I did. In t minutes. Imagine what coincidences I could spot in a hundred years.

[Intraluminal]

Sorry, Five minutes.

[aa180]

Good point.

[Intraluminal]

If you look for coincidences, you will find them. start looking for coincidences that REJECT or disprove religion and you will find them too.

Of course, religions have had 100s or thousands of years and. millions of followers looking for SUPPORTING coincidences, so you'll have to spend a ling time to find counter-examples, but they're there.

[Intraluminal]

As for the bowing guy, look at this "proof" that God is a chicken.

https://goo.gl/images/MXsNA9

[Intraluminal]

Or a horse

https://goo.gl/images/L5956M

[Intraluminal]

Basically these two articles will explain the whole thing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

And

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

[aa180]

Lol nah no way that last one is real. I'm sure it's either carved or photoshopped. I think it would have been much more famous and a tourist destination if it was real. And the chicken one was kinda funny but still doesn't look as much like a chicken as the tree I put up looks like a man bowing.

[Intraluminal]

Dude. I (one person) looked for 30 seconds to find those two examples.

How many followers have had their eyes open for "examples" and for how many years? Give me 100 million people and 500 years and I'll find proof that God is anything you want.

[aa180]

I agree with you man.

[lord_chilled]

Those palm amd fingers resembling the letters of god in arabic is beyond far fetched.
Its nowhere near similar enough.

And 18 and 81 are far too simplistic looking. Its basically just 3 lines.

The only pic that seems even slightly legit is the bowing man tree.

But , bowing could be interpreted as bowing to any god, or man or whatever.

[aa180]

But only Muslims bow like that when they pray as far as I know AND the tree is facing Mecca. So it should be obvious which god it's bowing to IF it's a supposed sign from him.

[lord_chilled]

no, there were many cultures and religion in the world, predating islam, or any of the abrahamic religion for that matter.
and a lot of them had bowing, and kneeling as part of prayer or respect for god.
as far as mecca is concerned, i dont see anything holy about it. its basically the burial site of the prophet, right/ what has that to do with god?

[aa180]

I'm not saying it's holy, I'm saying why would a random tree that happens to be shaped like a man bowing just happen to be facing the same direction that 1.6 billion followers of a religion face when they pray. I never said I agree with why they choose to face it, I'm just saying that they happen to face it and a tree seems to agree with them.

[lord_chilled]

its called coincidence.
there is a tree that malformed and happens to look a bit like a man bowing ( very vague) and when interpreted as a man, it seems to face a particular direction of religious worship.

islam is a relatively young religion. what if that tree was supposed to be a man bowing to some other religious site that people worshipped thousands of years earlier? or maybe during or after islam?

literally every religion will have plenty of 'evidence" that make them look right, but they are all just as vague as your examples.
hinduism, christianity, buddhism, etc all have such examples.
you can't take these things seriously

[Ram0n83]

Your points are interesting. I'm still trying to figure out how the characters are supposed to be present in the hands. I see where the lines are drawn to accentuate natural skin creases. But I don't see how those form letters or numbers.

[aa180]

Maybe you don't see it because you've never read Arabic before?

[Ram0n83]

Probably.

But doesn't the West use Arabic numbers? If so, I'm not seeing how the lines on the palms represent 1s & 8s.

[aa180]

Nah the Arabic language itself writes numbers completely different to how they are written in the west. The only exceptions are the numbers 1 and 9. Everything else is different.

[DJay_AUS]

What do I think? I think this is a case of confirmation bias.

[aa180]

Perhaps. But how do you distinguish between that and when something actually does confirm what you think? Not saying that to believe in something like God we should rely on such things, but what if they really were true?

[DJay_AUS]

We have the power of critical thinking, we distinguish by assessing what is more likely to be true. Believing alone does not make something true. Debates and books have been written through the ages posing this question and perhaps will indefinitely, so a divide will persist. We know confirmation bias exists. We know humans have a propensity to seek meaning in what we can observe. My opinion is that that is demonstrated here humans are imaginative and attempt to make sense of our surroundings and purpose in life.

[RocTheNationalSoc]

Bullshit coincidences. If a man was born with a birth mark that resembled a sentance "Jesus is God" that wouldn't automatically mean Jesus is God. You can find things like these if you try hard enough.

[Celtero]

Reminds me of the time a guy thought he saw Jesus in his toast...

[aa180]

I can appreciate the joke but I think you're being a little unfair here.

[aa180]

Unfair in your comparison that is*

[Celtero]

There is one quote from Epicurus that always brings me back to atheism.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Also, my hands do not have the 81/18, and sometimes clouds are shaped like animals, but that doesn't mean anything significant. Why would God communicate something so ambiguous?

[aa180]

Dude I once put that quote of Epicurus as my cover photo on Facebook.

Right, completely forgot about the clouds. But what I presented above is not ambiguous. Clouds are. You might see a horse, I might see a mule. But with our hands, the Arabic letters are quite clear. Or at least, more so.

[Celtero]

Maybe it's because I can't read Arabic, but it still seem far-fetched. Each finger has different looking writing on it even though they only differ in size.

[valkrenx]

Celtero I really like the quote from Epicurus, but tell me what if the situation is a test? Let's bring it down to a basic level first, let's say I have a friend called Luke and I wanted to test our friendship. I wonder how I can do it without placing an evil opportunity in front of him e. g. I drop a hundred dollar bill in front of him "accidentally" while I'm leaving his place, am I malevolent for wanting to know how good of a friend he is?

[Celtero]

@valkrenx Well, if you were omniscient like God you'd already know how he'd react. Not to mention God created Luke, so if he steals the 100$ then it's only because God made him that way.

[valkrenx]

Agreed! I mean its known that in Islam it is believed that God has written all past present and future actions, but we get punishment or forgiveness due to our intentions, so yes he knows what Luke would do but does look feel good or bad about the action? That's what counts :) the whole idea islamic idea is God made us, angels and Jhins. Angels basically robots that obey God's will at any time, so "we" wanted to be like angels or even better so God gave us a challenge since we requested, he gave us free will and wipes our knowledge of the existence of God, the test is will we CHOOSE to believe and pray to God or will we ignore. Why believeing is better than angels constantly obeying is because choosing to believe in God will always be more appreciated than forced to like angels (robot-like).

[Celtero]

@valkrenx But the test is pointless because God created you. If God created you then at some point he decided whether or no you would be able to pass such a test.

[Celtero]

He also would make the decision on whether or not you'd be guilty about failing the test.

[Anonymous]

I just know about that, except for the tree... Interesting tho

[MoriartyIsCassady]

Well in the same way that people saw signs everywhere for every kind of complotists theory, I believe we can think the same about those "signs".

[iamshan]

Yeah sure whatever you do you just don't shoot me if don't agree alright.

[aa180]

Why is no one reading my first (and second) paragraphs instead of trying to make yourselves look clever with your lame-ass jokes?

[iamshan]

Come on man you know foolish that whole idea of "signs" are, I mean I'm no M. night xD

[aa180]

That's why I enclosed them in quotation marks.

[iamshan]

I believe in instinct, not intuition.

[aa180]

Well I study Math so for me it's all about the intuition.

[jacquesvol]

I don't believe in gods

[UsernameMadness]

Are you trolling us? Just smile and nod.

[aa180]

Bruh

[jakeofalltrades]

I think your full of shit at best, crazy at worst

[aa180]

Full of shit even though everything I said is true? You see with your own eyes yet you can't comprehend? I never said we should believe in Islam because of this, I'm just saying these sorts of things are too improbable for us to think nothing of them.

[TripleAce]

They aren't improbable. We can always find things to fit what we want it to fit
Like you can do that with anything

[SuccessfulHornDog]

Not interested