"Childless" vs. "Child-Free": Why They're Different

[vonasaurus]

First of all, I'm not writing this to shit all over parents or people who want kids. If you want them, that's great; if you don't, that's also great; I'm not here to judge either way.

Clear as mud? Spiffy!

Anyway, this take was prompted by a question I answered recently, in which someone referred to people without kids as "childless".

In my opinion, childless means that you wanted kids and couldn't have them for whatever reason. But, for those of us who don't want kids at all, I prefer the term "child-free".

"But cerulean and navy are both blue, Von. Aren't you just arguing semantics?"

Well, no. Despite popular belief, women who are child-free aren't selfish, unfeminine, child-hating folk (though they do exist); unlike those who are childless, we have made a conscious choice not to procreate.

Why? A few possible reasons:

1) I love kids, but I love my freedom more.

It's true: I love kids, and I like to think that I've proven it by spoiling my 6 nieces and nephews absolutely rotten over the years. But the idea of being tethered to one place, to have one tiny person so utterly dependent on me for survival, is terrifying... As much as I love having the little bean sprouts around, they wear me out and it's always nice to unwind once they've gone back to their parents.

2) Lack of maternal instinct.

Yes, kids are cute when they're well-behaved. But I heard one screaming while out at the store the other night, and my first thought was, "someone put a muzzle on that kid".

Maternal instinct exists as a social construct, not a fact of nature. Some women have the so-called "mommy gene" built in, but I most definitely do not.

3) Kids just don't fit into my life plan, now or ever.

My husband-to-be and I are quite happy with our little family of two. We don't want to add to it, and won't be pressured into doing so just because it's the socially-accepted norm.

People say, "it's the best thing that will ever happen to you".

No.

The best thing that will ever happen to me is marrying my soulmate, getting my first book published, and graduating from university with honours. In fact, having kids would be the worst thing that could happen to me, because it would mean putting all of those other goals and dreams on hold for 18 years.

4) Some people just don't like kids.

I'm not one of them, but I know a few women who hate babies for various reasons. And that's all fine and well.

Most importantly, it has nothing to do with you.

No, a bad experience didn't "make me this way"; I'm not doing anything to "prove a point", and I don't care if or not you think I'd make "such a good mother". Trust me when I say that my not having kids isn't some sort of personal insult directed at you (or, if you're a parent, your precious little sugarplums). My uterus is none of your business, thank you very much.

Psychologist Jeanne Safer's "affirmative no" ultimately helped me to see that kids weren't for me. I wanted to want them, but I eventually came to the realization that they simply don't fit into my vision for the future. And to those saying that, "oh, you'll change your mind": no, I won't, because I'm at a point where I'm no longer making a decision.

If you want a small hockey team, that's great. If you want 30 cats, that's fine too. Whether you have kids or not- whether you love them, hate them, or fall somewhere in between- do what feels right for you.

Clear as mud, I hope!

[Warmapplecrumble]

I am not sure if we as a couple ever want children for few reasons:

*We have no legacy to give them we are minimalists that enjoy our life day to day
*We don't want to buy a house and are happy moving all the time
*We always like changing our careers
*We love our free time together
*We love our sleep
*Sometimes we don't have a routine - we sleep till 6pm and eat probably one meal, a child needs good nourishment
*We already have enough stress, a child means more
*There is nothing for the world to offer our child, bullying, rapists, pedophiles - we are too scared for this to happen to them
*Everyone in this world suffers... we are bringing them into suffering
*Children being totally different personality to us, we are introverts who are quiet simple people
*Children getting into the wrong path e. g. drugs, prostitution, etc
*World is overpopulated

Now I have few reasons why I might want to have a child:
*Both our parents are alive and I would like the grandparents to spend time with them
*We have a lot of skills to teach them
*We are good at cooking, organisation, nurturing
*Would like to experience bringing a new life with my partner
*This child could be someone important in the future e. g. a politician, a king etc (I doubt it but yeah)

Our mind is confused, but my ovaries are growing old, so we have to make our mind up one day.

[vonasaurus]

you make a lot of great points in both cases; i was on the fence for a while myself, but that's when the "affirmative no" came in handy.

i wanted to want children. but, no matter how hard i tried to picture them in my future, they just didn't fit. i made peace with that knowledge and, these days, i am at a point where i'm not making a decision anymore. i'm happy, i love my life, and i feel at peace~ hopefully the same will be true for you, regardless of which you choose. :)

[Warmapplecrumble]

Thank you, I have made a decision though if I am above 30 I don't really want children, I just don't want to have a massive age gap between them and me. Especially cancer and genetic disorders increase a lot the older I get. :-/

At what point as in age you finally came to peace?

[vonasaurus]

i was on the fence for a bit, but decided at 22 not to have kids... but it was only when i got to 24-25 that i finally felt secure in that choice and accepted it.

[Warmapplecrumble]

I am still on the fence :-/ hopefully I wil make my mind up, very indecisive I am lol

[Nice_Guy_Last]

I really think that this movement might be the most important one in our generation: not everyone is meant to have kids. It takes patience, time, and unrelenting work to raise a child, and it really isn't for everyone. Previous generations saw the expectation of child rearing cause people who were not good parents, and knew it, to be socially forced into raising a child they are less than capable of doing.

[vonasaurus]

that's just it; anyone can make a baby, but it takes a different kind of person to be a parent... and i am not that person.

in my case, i'm passionate about learning and my education. that's my "baby".

[Nice_Guy_Last]

Right, and individuals in society without children play an entirely different role. Without the constant need for attention from a child, a person can devote themselves more fully to a career and give more freely of their money and time.

[vonasaurus]

right again :)

[Nice_Guy_Last]

thanks for MHO!

[bedroomdweller]

"Maternal instinct exists as a social construct, not a fact of nature. Some women have the so-called "mommy gene" built in, but I most definitely do not."

I have to stop there for a second. In regards to straight women, without taking in consideration deviations or sociopaths, etc... A female's imperative in life, biologically, is to find security in a relationship for her and her potential offpring. A female's drive in relationships is very directional. Most women would want to get married AND have children, and most do. Remember women are under a biological clock, and most women go through changes near end that reproductive cycle, ie, hitting the wall. There is a notable phenomenon of women marrying before their 30's and procreating young. Some girls even have baby fever early on...

Men also have their own reproductive drive, one of spreading their seed. The difference is that since monogamy and marriage are pushed by society most men will fall in this and end up marrying, despite their natural capability of engaging in pararell relationships, and/or sleeping around-no strings attached.

In essence, females display a more cyclic behavior towards relationships. If they no longer wish to remain in a relationship, they'll seek another male who will satisfy her needs at the time, while males "cheat" in parallels. Some married men even go to lengths to have two separate lives without getting caught until later on...

In regards to mother instinct it is not a biological contruct neither since, while a female love in a relationship is very conditional, a mother's love towards her child is rather inconditional. The kid you mentioned in the description isn't yours so you wouldn't know.

These are things that have been in discussion in both psychology and biologically and are pretty consistent and veriable for the big majority.

I just wanted to point that out. As for everything else, if you don't want kids, then that's perfectly fine, don't have them. For whatever personal reasons, conclusions, arguments, or whatever you are already decided to on not having kids is irrelevant to your argument on mother instinct. We are rational creatures, and sometimes putting things in perspective can make us walk over biology pretty easily.

What makes you think traditional ideas kept marriages together and stable for so long? It was until traditionalism was tossed out the window marriage/divorce statistics have rapidly and drastically change.

[vonasaurus]

the concept of "maternal instinct" came about during the industrial revolution, when it was decided that men would work and women would stay home raising kids. and it was only when children became a liability, rather than an asset- since having many was no longer necessary to maintain the household labour force- they became the priceless little treasures we think of them as today.

if you want an interesting read, check out "selfish, shallow, and self-absorbed: 16 writers on the decision not to have kids"- laura kipnis' essay on maternal instinct pretty much sums it up.

thanks for your input.

[Righttobeararms83]

Types of childless persons can be classified into three broad categories:
natural sterility randomly affects individuals. One can think of it as the minimum level of permanent childlessness that we can observe in any given society, and is of the order of 2 percent, in line with data from the Hutterites, a group established as the demographic standard in the 1950s.
social sterility, which one can also call poverty driven childlessness, or endogenous sterility, describes the situation of poor women whose fecundity has been affected by poor living conditions.
women can remain childless by choice. Most of these women are educated and tend to postpone marriage to invest more in their career, or have a very high opportunity cost to bear and rear a child, often in terms of foregone labour income.
The two first categories are often grouped under the label "involuntary childlessness". The latter category is often called "voluntary childlessness", also described as being "childfree", occurring when one decides not to reproduce.
Sorry there's what childless mrans to you and what it really means.

[vonasaurus]

please reread the opening sentence:

"In my opinion, childless means that you wanted kids and couldn't have them for whatever reason."

just like it says on the tin, it's a personal preference.

[Righttobeararms83]

Your opinion is mistaken. Childless means something other. Sorry but you cannot change the label on the tin or rewrite the dictionary to suit your personal preference. Sorry.

[vonasaurus]

not rewriting anything; that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, just as i am to mine.

[Righttobeararms83]

You will remain childless by choice lets leave it at that.

[lumos]

Honestly I would love to not have any children. At least that's what I think, for now. People's comments have sort of gotten to me about "oh you can still change your mind" so now I really don't know lol, maybe I will change my mind. Maybe I won't. But for now I feel like I'd be a sucky mother and that a kid would take up a lot of time and money that I don't want to spend ON a kid. My mom used to be like me. She's said that she had all the thoughts I have now, that she didn't want to give up her freedom or money etc. That she felt like she would be a bad mother. Buuuut here I am, and so is my older brother. Egh.
I dunno. Not having a kid would make life so much easier.

[vonasaurus]

well, you've got lots of time to decide; that's where the affirmative no comes in handy, because you should only commit to something (ie: kids or no kids) when you're not making a decision anymore.

that said, i don't think that life without kids is easier. yes, extra money is great, but my man and i have our responsibilities, our struggles, just like any family; it doesn't make them less significant because there are only two of us in it.

i think that, when the time comes, you'll know what feels right for you and act accordingly.

[lumos]

"but my man and i have our responsibilities, our struggles, just like any family; it doesn't make them less significant because there are only two of us in it."
Well sure, but throw in a couple of kids into the mix and I'm sure you'd think it would be harder than it is now. That was sorta the point I was trying to make, that on top of the things you've already got going on (both good and bad) you still have to raise another human being. So it sorta adds to the stress that's already there from other things.

[vonasaurus]

okay, sure. but i'm a full-time student, plus i work. where is all this free time that i'm supposed to have because i don't have kids?

i don't believe that my issues are somehow less than those of someone who has a family- at the end of the day, we all have to keep our bills paid, a roof over our heads, and food on the table.

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[lumos]

No no I know. I'm just saying that you, in this situation you're in right now, is probably a little bit easier than you, being in the situation you're in right now + having kids. I'm not saying that as a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that kids suck and that it means you have even less time on your hands, not that you have a lot now to begin with!

[vonasaurus]

ah, i see~ thanks for clarifying :)

[JudgmentDay]

Having children is not for everyone. by the way, ever heard of Anti-natalism? Basically it's a more negative philosophy that birth is immoral because the person born into this world would eventually be exposed to harm, pain, suffering, etc. and because that person never ever gave consent to their parents to bring them into this kind of a world.

[vonasaurus]

yes, i've heard of it, though i definitely wouldn't call myself an anti-natalist. still, i can understand not wanting to bring a child into this mess because the world sucks.

[JudgmentDay]

@vonasaurus the biggest problem with it is that no one had ever asked to nor demanded to come here into this world or grant permission to their parents or creators to bring them into existence into this world; this kind of a world. That alone is completely unfair, it's imposing life and existence onto someone that never asked to come here in the first place. And thus by bringing them into existence, they are guaranteed to experience pain, suffering, and inevitably die, things they are force to face in reality that they might otherwise have not wanted to face if they had been aware of beforehand. But if they realize these things they might find it all to be completely absurd, what's the point of repeating this cycle and putting someone else through all of these miseries and problems that they had never asked for in the first place? I find those that are so overly optimistic and/or happy about bringing someone into existence here into this world to be completely delusional.

[ChromAzonyx108]

@JudgmentDay I've never heard of anti-natalism before but it sounds interesting. In my opinion, if you can't adequately provide for children then you shouldn't have them and shouldn't subject them to such harm, pain, suffering, etc. I don't know how some people can afford to take care of children - I'm here just trying to provide for myself which is enough to deal with, let alone the responsibility of having to take care of someone else.

How would you judge the morality of anti-natalism? Would you judge it based on intentions (i. e. deontology) or on the outcomes (i. e. consequentialism)?

[JudgmentDay]

@ChromAzonyx108 I think it's both ways. Especially for someone that is aware of the consequences that not all life turns out to be as good as expected. If they are aware of all the possibilities of harm, pain, suffering and death in this world then they should question if it's really in the best interest of the person that is being brought into existence, and what if they don't want to face or accept this kind of world or reality?

The most important of all as I said before is the consent issue, nobody had ever asked to come into this world and it's beyond their control. Only their parents made the decision to bring them into existence here, but is it really for the best interest of the person that came into existence? That's where it's questionable. I think it really isn't anymore, but people are people there will always be people that want children regardless of what the consequences are and because not everyone thinks and feels the same about birth, life, and/or death.

[JudgmentDay]

@ChromAzonyx108

Because if everyone had unanimously agreed that all of the bad and corruption that exists in this world outweighs all or any of the good, then they would have all stop procreating by all means necessary long time ago and walk hand-in-hand into extinction. It's really how you feel, think and look at it. I do feel and believe that because humans had came into existence, and because of the way we are, and how we are, we had caused much more harm, damage, suffering and pain collectively towards each other, our planet, and all other living things that are part of our world in comparison to all of the good things that we had done for each other, every other living thing in the world and our planet. Besides, humanity IS the greatest threat to themselves as well as their own planet. But that's just my views, not trying to force everyone else to think and feel the same way I do, nor accept what I had said. If you were me, you wouldn't want someone to have to come to this

[JudgmentDay]

kind of a world and face this kind of a reality. But if you are really optimistic and optimist then I can understand why you'd risk it and take chances with it, as I said people everyone's different when it comes to what they truly want and desire, if they want to have children then they just want to have them, regardless of what consequences and bad things that come with this world, this reality.

[ChromAzonyx108]

@JudgmentDay

You mention possibilities of suffering but not probabilities. If a couple figure they have a good chance of raising their children sufficiently then maybe it's worth a shot. Even then though, you may still have a point since as you move from the short-term to the long-term things become less certain. It really is a big gamble to have children.

I wouldn't say that I'm optimistic, but I try to be realistic and see both sides.

[Miss_Behave]

Great take.
I dislike kids. Period.

As for lack of maternal instincts, I don't feel that way (and can't imagine feeling that way) towards a baby/kid/another person, BUT I do find it strange that I actually feel "motherly" towards my dog (whom I love to bits!). It's like I feel very protective over her and baby her, and even (naturally) refer to myself as "mommy" when I talk to her.

[vonasaurus]

thanks!

like you, i also feel more inclined that way when it comes to animals, and i'm definitely "mama von" to various characters i've created. but a real flesh-and-blood baby? nope.

[Miss_Behave]

Yep!
Even when my nephews and nieces were born, I avoid them like the plague and don't even go anywhere near them. I remember when we'd have family gatherings and everyone would be like all over them and carrying them and stuff, and they'd ask me if I wanted to carry them too and my answer was a straight and simple, "Nope!"

[Luci92]

Good take, I liked the arguments you put forward --they made a lot of sense.
I like the idea of kids and I'm almost positive I'll have them someday, but I can understand they're not for everyone.
Also, I just came here to tag @ginny_weasley :')

[ginny_weasley]

Thanks for the mention!

[Luci92]

@ginny_weasley wlc!

[vonasaurus]

thanks, i'm glad you enjoyed the take.

kids are definitely not for everyone; when i told my mother, she said that "it takes a lot of courage to admit to yourself that you don't want children". then again, many of my friends and relatives are good parents, and they enjoy it, so why take that away from them?

either way, i know you'll make the right decision for yourself. :)

[ginny_weasley]

I'm sure you made the right decision. Research what to say to them if they refuse you. Tell them it's illegal for doctors to impose their views on patients. You have the money for this surgery and you want it, so you should get it. Lawsuits are what most hospitals are worried about. So offer to sign whatever saying you won't sue them. Also tell them if they botch the surgery and you get pregnant, they will definitely have a lawsuit. You are definitely not too young. If you're old enough to decide you WANT children, you are old enough to decide you DONT want children.

[Luci92]

what she said ^^

[vishna]

Lol, I love little ones, and my ovaries are waiting for the day they pop off the one that makes it all the way, but I too am like "shut that brat up" in the store, haha, but mostly if the kid is being demanding "give me this! I want! I want!"

It's so weird, I don't even say childless when referring to people without kids, I just say "they don't have kids" weird.

Any who :) your reasons are logical and totally ok!

[Lynx122]

I feel the same way I've never wanted kids so far. Of course it could change and if I change and want kids then that's fine but I won't change my mind just because people say I should ^^.

[vonasaurus]

exactly; if your mind does change, it should be your choice and yours alone.

[Waffles731]

Great take
I'm also going to tag @ginny_weasley

[vonasaurus]

good call; i read a take of hers a while ago that's similar to this one.

[Unit1]

Aye aye!

I never want children. They are the biggest burden known to me.
I really desire to have a lady, who does not want children either.

[vonasaurus]

well, as you can see by the comments (and the very existence of this take lol), we do exist. good luck finding yours!

[Unit1]

Awww, if only I could find such one :(

Also I forgot to mention: I love my freedom and independence too much to give them up for children (and marriage). I am still fighting to this day to acquire them and once I have it, I would never trade them away. Never.

Either I live a free man or die a rebelling slave. That kind of motive.

[Xleah18x]

Good take! I never want kids either!!! I don't get how people choose kids over freedom and other stuff

[vonasaurus]

it all depends on the person; some people get a sense of fulfilment from being parents, and that's fine. but, for me, that same fulfilment comes from my studies~ reading, learning, talking with subject-matter experts... i'm passionate about my education, and that's the only "baby" i will ever need.

glad you enjoyed the take!

[Sunflower19]

Good take!
I want kids but I'm child-free and it's staying that way until I get married. Lol my reason is #1 and I'm not ready financially but maybe one day!

[sweetshyguy]

I don't want kids either, i love freedom and it's just too much work, 18 years of your life that you'll never get back.

[vonasaurus]

yes, freedom is wonderful~ my man and i have agreed that it will be nice to just enjoy each other.

[sweetshyguy]

Yeah, just enjoy each other, just the two of you forever.

[JudgmentDay]

@sweetshyguy Or the worst possibilities, you can lose them from any unfortunate, unexpected tragic event, either a terminal illness, accident, crime, or if they take their own life. Yes, bad things may not happen, but there are no absolute guarantees they won't. It's like rolling the dice, spinning the wheel, flipping coins, being at the wrong place and the wrong time and then bad and tragic things can and will happen. Something none of us have complete control over.

I realize shit like that happen on a daily basis so I'm like, you know what. I'm good. If no children of mines were ever born and came into existence, thus no children of mine would have ever had to suffer and know what suffering is, and neither would they ever had to die or know what death is. Save them all of the trouble and miseries they otherwise would have to deal with and face and they might not want to face it at all to begin with.

I know I'm deep and shit about this, but that's just me.

[sweetshyguy]

@JudgmentDay You are actually very intelligent :)

[JudgmentDay]

@sweetshyguy Not to mention the unexpected and potential harm, pain, suffering or even death that they can cause to others as well as their own parents, relatives or family members, etc. As I said before it all comes down to how you look at life, this world, reality, etc. I feel the bad, dark, evil, the corruption is the "real" reality and all of the good, easy, comfy, pleasurable things are just sugar-coated toppings. But that's just me.

Not trying to bring your day down or anybody else's but as I've said I'm very deep about shit like this from what I see and experience around me.

And honestly, tell me if you had known all of the bad, evil, dark, and corrupt things that come with this world beforehand, before coming into existence into this world, then would you still had wanted to come to this world even to risk it all and experience those good things you had experienced? I question myself that frequently and the answer is I rather hadn't. It's just not the kind of reality I desire

[JudgmentDay]

and neither would of my own free will would I had want to be part of this kind of a world and reality.

[sweetshyguy]

@JudgmentDay I wouldn't have wanted to live either just look at this world, all the evil, all the horror and nightmares World War 1 World War 2 nazi death camps, Japanese Unit 731 i think all that is enough to say fuck it, i'm not bringing more people into this world of hurt.

[JudgmentDay]

@sweetshyguy in case you are not aware, world war 3 is already at risk to happen eventually in the future and it's not in a very distant future because it is relevant to the financial crisis, economic crisis, geopolitical affairs, and the global financial system. The worst that can happen is like history repeating itself with another great financial disaster, an economic collapse, equal to or worse than the great depression, and from there war is more than likely unavoidable and inevitable. If you look at my other question here in regards to the Petrodollar, you may understand what's really going on that the media doesn't tell us and want us to know: www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2220489-have-you-heard-of-the-petrodollar-before-or-do-you-know-what-it-is

[JudgmentDay]

The only way it wouldn't happen is if they figure something out to resolve this matter peacefully and diplomatically, but I doubt that will happen, because the powers that be know and is aware that the value of the dollar is affected and they won't allow the petrodollar system to fail at all costs, thus world war 3 is possible.

[oddwaffle]

I want children but I don't have any.

I don't want children so I don't have any.

Clearly, one of them is more miserable than the other because they didn't get what I wanted.

[ginny_weasley]

Love this my take and agree with every point you made. I'm currently looking into the best sterilization surgery for me. I'm thinking laparoscopic sterilization is best for me.

[vonasaurus]

thanks~ my husband-to-be and i discussed some options and, as we speak, i'm on a waiting list to have my tubes tied. the list is a year long, and my doctor says that the specialist may not do it because i'm under 35. but i guess we'll see.

[ginny_weasley]

That's really terrible. Tell them it's illegal for them to refuse a medical procedure that you have the money for. Or sign a form that says you won't sue them on the off chance you change your mind.

[vonasaurus]

that's just the way it is here~ most doctors will refuse to do such a permanent surgery on a woman under 35 because she "might change her mind". then again, i'm sure that the surgeon will do it once they've heard me out.

[JudgmentDay]

@ginny_weasley If only those doctors would stop thinking you'll change your mind later, you could have it it all done and over with by now. It seems like these days they insist that you must wait out your biological clock; until your age 35 or older. But seriously? If they worry that much about you changing your mind eventually then why not just offer to freeze your eggs for free or a discount in case? Instead of always deny and persuading you to post pone the procedure. Because the "biological clock" thing doesn't really matter anymore thanks to modern medical sciences such as being able to freeze and preserve your current fresh eggs for later use. The same goes for guys, they can always save and preserve their sperm for later use prior to undergoing a vasectomy, in case they ever change their mind later.

[ginny_weasley]

@JudgmentDay I'd be willing to sign papers saying I won't sue them if I do change my mind. I'm thinking of going to a liberal state for the surgery.

[Negrodamuss]

I definitely want kids. The world needs more geniuses, and so I'm all too happy to provide

[vonasaurus]

if you want them, that's fine~ i have nothing against people who do want them, though i have made peace with the knowledge that i am not one of those people.

[LiveFreeorDieHard]

Kids would be really annoying. I'm only 20 but I already know kids are not for me. I don't hate them I'm not scared to them I just don't want them. Oh well.

[Ironic_Pepe]

What is freedom for you?

Doing what you want? Not having dependents?

[vonasaurus]

for me, freedom is not being tied down or stuck. for example:

grad school or job opportunity in another city/country?
want to take a trip with my husband/friends?
(in the past) bad relationship situation?

in all 3 cases, i can leave, no questions asked.; same reason i won't ever buy a home.

on the other hand, someone with kids would have to consider things like uprooting their kids from friends/familiar environments, arranging babysitters, etc.

[Blitzkrieger]

And poeple keep asking themselves why birth rates in western countries are declining.

[JudgmentDay]

The economic situation plays one of the biggest role. But do you really expect everyone to have children, just only because they could?

[vonasaurus]

yep, women are voting with their ovaries.

[Blitzkrieger]

@JudgmentDay the economy plays no role. The difference lies in peoples thinking. In the west they want one or two children and they want to give them the best possible care including luxuries. In india and china which are the countries with the biggest populations in the world people dont care as much as westerners about giving their children luxuries. The materialistic attitude of westerners towards their children makes birthrates decline. In the western world people believe that if you dont overload your kid with gifts and all sorts of other unneeded crap that you are a bad parent. In countries with higher birthrates people are not as materialistic and there are drastic differences in gift culture from parents towards their chirdren.

[JudgmentDay]

@Blitzkrieger it does depend where you are in the world, but I think it is less stable than before. Jobs are being more frequently off-shored or automated than before. People can unexpectedly lose their jobs and means to provide and support themselves. Unless they somehow work in a job that has a workers' union which may offer some level of protection against job loss, but even that may not be enough. I'm sure there had been more unemployment and people struggling to find a secure and stable job than ever before. But there's always people that really don't care, they might just have kids and then take advantage of the system and apply for welfare. If people struggle and are barely able to support themselves and get by; barely able to cover for all their rent, bills, transportation, meals and various other necessities then do you still expect them to have children? They might if things are stable and their situation improves, but there are no guarantees their situation would improve.

[frozenhorizon]

@JudgmentDay If by economic situation you mean people with more money are having less kids, then yes.

[vonasaurus]

economics does have a bit to do with it, i think; the job market is way too unstable and the risk of layoff/job loss is high.

tl; dr kids are now a liability, since they cost more to raise than they contribute to the household, which means that there has to be some sort of justification for having them.

[Blitzkrieger]

Well there are now people in Europe who believe we should reproduce so our ethnicities are not lost.

[JudgmentDay]

@Blitzkrieger again, it's all different views. It depends on what you value, what you feel or think is valuable and really important to you, but it does not apply to everyone universally.

Even if you believe people should reproduce, it doesn't mean they can or is willing to always reproduce or reproduce for the sake of reproducing in order to prevent ethnicities from being lost.

[Blitzkrieger]

@JudgmentDay there is a change in views that is occuring right now. We will see if our birth rates will increase.

[Giacomanzo]

More important, if you do not want kids, you would a terrible mother.

[vonasaurus]

yes, i agree; anyone can make a baby, but it takes a different sort of person to be a mother. better to not have kids than to have a child spend its entire life knowing that it wasn't wanted... what effects would that have on someone down the line?