Moral or Immoral?

[White_Widow]

Everyday we see it happening more often, people who are having debates/arguing about opinions on things and if they are moral or immoral.

'This take', is to see how we are able to think about something Immoral and decide it's morally correct and even defend that opinion as if our lives depend on it. Not willing to see any other perspective that may lead them to the fact that what they are doing may actually be immoral and change it.

Is this avoidance? Denial? Fear for failure? Public image loss? Loss of power? Mind control?

Before I'm going to take a closer look at that, I'm going to give a few examples which are in my opinion quite immoral, but are sold as morally correct. I know that many of you will probably disagree and I will try to give arguments based on facts as to why I think this to be true. I myself have one golden rule:

One should treat others the same way they themselves would want to be treated.

From this view I present to you the next topics.

The military (and most jobs in uniform)

Authority is what we have given them. Under the illusion that we need "them" to keep us safe. We think we need to entrust a certain group of people that get to have "more knowledge or intel" than us "the people". They sell "us" (those who perfectly fit their profile) a job and than we entrust them to make "good" decisions for us which are executed by "those who got hired" without questions asked and that's supposed to be the moral thing to do? When we the people ask about why certain things that are done, we never get a complete answer. So if one of them says "shoot", there's always someone to pull the trigger without ever having asked one question in doubt about how he maybe doing the wrong thing. Is this right? Is this really morally correct? Yet we all keep motivating men/women to enlist. (note, that when you get accepted, you give up your rights to refuse orders and ask questions!)

Okay so you can throw the argument "need to know bases"… so what makes "our" safety not "OUR" need to know? Why is the military pumping so much money into their resources and enhancements if there shouldn't be reason to ever use it? Just because some people have a big mouth and point their finger, doesn't mean the masses have to follow.

You can say that without the military we never would have won WWII or any other war. Without any military men willing to follow so blindly against their own morals there never would have been a WWII or any other war.

Still we have men joining the military everyday. Plenty of countries still have mandatory military service. We women are "known" for loving a man in uniform, this so called attraction is only motivating men to enlist. Most of them end up being completely mindfu*ked at the end of the day, for doing things that are immoral, and they get to come home to their wife, who wants to rip his clothes off and then afterwards complain they have an abusive husband and he never came back the same. Is this really morally correct?

Cheating

Is cheating these days something to be considered a normal thing to do? Betraying your SO and hurting them like no other? Is it seriously OK to wonder about like you're single while being in a serious relationship? I'm not talking about polygamy here (which in my opinion shouldn't be done either. But if people consent to each other on their own accord who am I to judge them), I'm talking about couples whom are in a serious monogamous relationship with each other.

We have all seen them on G@G here. Questions like, is it cheating if… ??

Life is short… so have an affair?

There's this new hype, dating websites promoting their service for finding "second love" and saying it's OK to cheat. There are tons of these websites. The most dating websites participate in this propaganda and they've built specific websites designed for cheating, I'm not saying they are different from one another, but it's utterly unacceptable that they are being promoted as IT'S OK TO CHEAT! Which is NOT ok! It is IMMORAL!

and I know we all have our own definitions on the term "cheating" and the argument on whether you can keep a secret or not. Secrets don’t belong in a relationship. Trust does. Loyalty does, most of all honesty. So why is there such confusion about cheating? If you are hiding it, then what you are doing is wrong!

People make up reasons everyday why it's ethically acceptable to cheat in certain situations. There is but one exception to the rule which should have it's own chapter and that's rape. Any other reason or rational thinking, is no excuse for betraying your SO's trust like that. It's immoral!

Yet we talk and act like it's one of the mandatory daily activities. How is this right? How can this be considered morally correct? And even worse, be acted upon as morally correct?

Feminism

When feminism was brought to our attention it was to fight for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to earn fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to receive education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.

And may it be noted that it is fantastic that they have managed to achieve all of these goals.

Only these days, things are subtly being made immoral, women being "brainwashed" into thinking they can run from their biological build. That we can "just" be as men. And therefor "men" can be as women. This is soo wrong on so many levels, I'm having troubles on where to start. Women are naturally built to give birth and nurture. Men are built to provide and protect. Why is it so wrong to uphold these biological facts? I'am not implying women can’t work, or men can't babysit, in my opinion it's just not natural. But these are not the morally incorrect values I want to present to you, what I do want to present is how far feminism is going nowadays.

Women are being influenced in ways to increase divorce rates by separation of a working team by

teaching women to accept a set of beliefs about independence, without questioning any of them.

Any men who have ever had an argument with they're wife/girlfriend knows they have been told that they (the women/girls) are always right even though that's not true. When men seek equal say so in making decisions, they are accused of being controlling. Good men have fallen under the propaganda and are now afraid to approach women in fear of sexual harassment. Women/girls are supporting abortions as a form of birth control at staggering rates. Feminism makes it in some cases incredibly hard for women who do want to make a home and family their 'career' and their first priority.

Feminism promotes a view of women that is only true for some women -- roughly 10 to 20% depending on where you are in the world. For those women, Feminism is empowering. For other women, children and most men, it is the opposite.

Feminism has come to a point where it's causing division and confusion between our sexes, how can this be anything other than immoral?

Conclusion

In my opinion, all of this is morally wrong, this behavior, this way of thinking and the fact we teach our children to behave the same. In the beginning of this Take, I asked "Is this avoidance? Denial? Fear for failure? Public image loss? Loss of power? Mind control?" Now at the end when I look at this Take, all I see is…

DIVIDE and CONQUER.

This has nothing to do with avoidance, denial, fear for failure or public image loss. It has everything to do with power and in some way a huge amount of mind control, subliminal advertising, social indoctrination or whatever name you want to call it. You can call me crazy all you want, it is what's happening right now.

Keep your eyes closed and enjoy the illusion or open your eyes and live in reality.

[madhatters4]

i think you are asking a very layered question about military.
there is little moral in the actual application of fighting forces more often than not. in syria we can say we are there to protect the innocent people from Assad, Iran, and Putin but then there is a lot of argument that we are really fighting that war simply to avoid a greater coalition of power between our opponents. certainly wwII was a moral decision to an extent but it was also certainly an economic and security decision... regarding those who enlist and our support of them. we are supporting military in the name of defense of our country and in principle those who need defending... that is a moral decision. however there is no doubt there is a large amount of immoral application of our military servicemen (e. g. our invasion of iraq after 9/11, Vietnam, etc).
... i think we the people believe in the moral aspect of military for defending of the defenseless and suffer the immoral whims of applying our military in self-serving endeavors by our political leaders

cheating may be accepted as a relatively common occurrence but there is still no denying that cheating is immoral no matter the circumstances. anyone who finds a justifiable reason to cheat is simply immoral

feminism is a tricky situation. you ascribe a single notion of feminism to all women (or i assume men) who consider themselves feminist. this is a false line of thinking. there are still tons and the majority of feminist are simply advocating equality. i am feminist. i am married to a feminist. i am friends with many men and women who are feminist and support feminism. and none are as you described modern feminist... but to the moral and immoral aspects. any advocacy for inequality or supremacy is not moral.

[Goochbreaker]

the military is inherently immoral as it is funded by taxes and we are forced to pay for them NO MATTER whether we agree with what they are doing or not.

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker that doesn't make it inherently immoral simply because it is funded by taxes that we are required to pay... nothing about that makes it immoral.

by that logic all things run by the government are immoral

[Goochbreaker]

The fact that we are required to pay them at the point of a gun (don't pay taxes you will be taken to jail, violently if necessary) means that IT IS immoral. Yes, by that logic, all things run by the government are immoral, because of how they are funded (coercively, not voluntarily).

Government is inherently immoral. Get that through your head.

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker that simply doesn't make it immoral. by your logic paying taxes is immoral. paying taxes is an intrinsic agreement you make to live here. you do have a choice. pay, go to jail or go live somewhere else.

[Goochbreaker]

there is no 'go somewhere else' you will be taken to jail and imprisoned. Paying taxes is immoral. We are funding an evil agenda. At a certain point, practicality does meet principle. Are you willing to go to jail for not paying? I am willing the day that you are. The day that I have at least 10% of the country willing to stand up for what's right. I try to make people see the truth so one day they can stand with me in defiance of evil. Until that day, I sacrifice my principles only where absolutely necessary, using craigslist for most of my purchases and avoiding tax wherever I can, and I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT DEFEND THE EVIL COERCIVE SYSTEM as you are doing now, which is a most shameful act. You are a broken human being. You literally defend your abuser. There is no where else, government has dominated the world because it has dominated the minds of mankind. We believe in it. They would not have the funds to collect all the taxes that feed them if people didn't willingly pay.

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker you can go to a place with different taxation policies is what i mean. by living in america you agree to the taxation system. there is nothing immoral about taxation. you may feel what taxes are used for is immoral but that is a subjective notion.

[Goochbreaker]

You really think it's okay that one government can own all that land, from sea to shining sea? You are under mind control. All government, anywhere in the world (and no matter where i go i will find one as humanity is under this spell) is immoral. Taxation is everywhere and it's always immoral. If you don't think it's immoral, you are under mind control. I feel I am repeating myself but you just can't seem to break the conditioning. Please don't bother responding if you aren't at least going to give my perspective a chance, cause i lived in yours for the first 20 years of my life

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker the government doesn't own all the land and that is not the point of the question or any aspect of the conversation we are having... i've heard what you said and it is absurd notions. an entity as large as government cannot be immoral. it can act immorally in ways, it can have immoral people within it but a government itself is not immoral. taxation as a whole is not immoral. aspects of it you may disagree with and consider immoral but you simply cannot say as a whole taxation is immoral.

you speak in far too concrete terms about things that are relative and thus you simply are stating opinions not facts.

[Goochbreaker]

you have got to be kidding me 'an entity as large as government cannot be immoral'

yes it can be, because it is funded through COERCIVE methods. Taxation is immoral, you have got to wrap your head around this TOTALLY NON RELATIVE, 100% OBJECTIVE FACT. Government does own all the land, every bit of it. Want proof? Even if you buy a piece of land, you pay property taxes. Guess what happens when you stop paying them? You get your shit taken away from you, that which you purchased through your hard work, poof, gone.

Taxation is theft and it is immoral. The size of an entity has nothing to do with whether or not it is moral, how the fk can you even make that argument. Taxation is immoral because it is theft, you cannot choose whether or not to pay. These imaginary lines on the map mean NOTHING!!! We are all under a great spell, cast on us from birth, it's no wonder it's so compelling. If anyone else took your money and said they'd spend it on a road you'd be fucking pissed

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker that doesn't mean they own the land it means that you agree as a term of living in this country to pay taxes. if you don't then you pay the penalty that doesn't mean they own the land.

i'm sorry i'm not going to continue this.

[Goochbreaker]

Yeah, it does mean they own the land, I'm trying to break through your incredibly thick skull so you can understand this. If you are born anywhere with in a MASSIVE RADIUS we are talking a totally unreasonable amount of land, you have to pay and live under the law of a central authority miles and miles and miles away from where you are. The world is dominated by these thugs, and the only way they continue to exist is because idiots like you believe in them and uphold that belief as if their life depended on it. The world has been dominated. I never agreed to this.

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker so when you pay sales tax does the government own the object you've purchased? taxes are a way for governments to generate revenue so they can in turn provide services. that's it. yuo do agree to the status quo by living in a place with the tax code.

you know how you can avoid lots of taxes? don't own property. rent. live in a state without federal income tax. stop bitching about a choice you make to live a certain way. or move to a country with little to no taxation (bahamas, brunei, monaco etc)

insult me if you want. your emotional rants belie a lack of practical and rational thought

[Goochbreaker]

what state doesn't have federal income tax? Tell me where in the world has no tax, really, I'm curious. The entire western world, which is where all my ancestry is from, is dominated by these thugs. You think the government collects taxes so they can provide services? Have you ever actually crunched the numbers? The services we get are A FUCKING PITTANCE of what is collected, the government collects taxes to make a profit you incredible idiot. I don't agree to a god damn thing, just because I am living in this place in the world does not mean I agree to shit and nobody has the right to own the amount of land that a government does. OH YEAH EVERYTHING WITHIN THIS MILLION MILE RADIUS IS OUR TURF PAY UP SLAVE

you are so fkn brainwashed, you think I lack logic but it is you who lacks logic. I'm too angry to explain this in detail, listen to larken rose, look up his youtube. He's good at explaining this stuff to stubborn idiots like yourself

[madhatters4]

@Goochbreaker i lack logic google countries with low to no taxes. i listed a few with no income tax.
i misspoke and meant to say move to states without state income tax to lessen your tax burden.

basically quit bitching. move to florida or arizona and don't own property then the only tax you'll pay is federal income tax. move to the bahamas and rent property then you'll literally pay nothing in taxes as they have no income tax. you live here so deal with it or move
i'm not brainwashed i just accept certain terms of living in a regime that have existed since the dawn of the nation. i don't bitch about things that are simply a necessary way of life.

[ladsin]

Having a defense force is certainly moral, although the actions taken by them may be immoral.

Cheating is immoral, but having an open relationship is amoral.

Men and women deserve equal rights under the law. Both deserve the right to bodily autonomy, so your whole point about abortion is actually treating them equally under the law.

[Goochbreaker]

having a defense force funded by taxation (which is theft) is immoral by definition because theft is immoral.

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker social contract theory would disagree.

If you go out and form your own country you certainly won't be forced to pay taxes, but if you enjoy the benefits of living in a country that provides these things then you are obligated to pay.

[Goochbreaker]

countries are imaginary lines

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker Sure... IF you're receiving the benefits you have to pay the price. That's the idea. For example if you go to an un-owned island, or out into the sea you have no obligation to pay taxes.

[Goochbreaker]

the benefits. THE BENEFITS!!! Most people don't want half the shit they are forced to pay for, in case you hadn't noticed, and there doesn't exist a government in the world in which politicians don't skim shit off the top by overcharging every single step of the way. The benefits of having a military that goes overseas and makes enemies for me? The benefits that put fluoride in my water, slowly poisoning me? The benefits of making sure what I can and cannot put in my body because they are so caring and so concerned for my health?

This is a fucking joke and you are under mind control. The so called 'benefits' you pay for could be turned on you at any second and you wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it because the centralized power taxation creates is too volatile to be controlled by the will of the people. It's out of control, and it always gets out of control.

do you really think we need a gov't to build roads? Would be cheaper to cut out the middle man

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker There are benefits to living in a society. That's why we form them. Again, if you don't want to live in a particular society then you don't have to. You're under no obligation to stay, at least where I live. In many cases you can actually just go out in the woods and squat on a piece of land and live pretty unmolested by the government.

[Goochbreaker]

rofl go out into the woods and live unmolested? If I want to buy anything I pay taxes, no? If the government finds out I'm squatting, they can demolish whatever I built on that land, no? You appear to be under the illusion that government is necessary for society. How naive. I have no problem living in a society, I have a problem living under the arbitrary rule of a VIOLENT, COERCIVE, IMMORAL GOVERNMENT!!! See the difference? I doubt you do

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker You're awfully antagonistic aren't you?

You needn't necessarily. I'm actually quite certain that there's a commune not too far from me that lives on their own and trades etc on their own. They don't have police, roads, hospitals, doctors, schools, etc.

Surely, if expansion takes our government to your doorstep then you'd have to move. It's "their" land. I know several people where I live that moved out into the wilderness for 1-5 years and never payed taxes or anything like that. Eventually they decided to reintegrate.

[Goochbreaker]

I'm antagonistic? Fucking hilarious. I'm not the one pointing a gun at you saying 'give me a percentage of your labor or go to jail' or 'pay me yearly to own this house that you already bought'. The fact is, the government claims jurisdiction over all the good land and often will simply demolish these communes as they see fit. The only way the communes survive is if they stay poor, if they start to generate any kind of wealth or trade with society too much, in comes the government to take their cut.

I'm antagonistic... THAT'S SO FUCKING RICH

[Goochbreaker]

oh and also if they find out you haven't been paying taxes, bad things happen...

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker Am I pointing a gun at you?

[Goochbreaker]

by extension you kind of are, assuming you willingly and HAPPILY fund a government that points a gun at me. You are pointing a gun at me in the same way somebody who hires a mercenary to hunt me down is pointing a gun at me. My beliefs make me an enemy of the state, I disregard the law, and therefore am subject to arbitrary punishment for nonviolent crimes. Not to mention the percentage of my labor they take... and the more I work, the more I make, the more they take. What a great incentive to be productive in life. They take more than physical things... they take a part of our soul too. Metaphorically speaking of course, we are all broken individuals under this coercive reign. Hilariously efficient mind control produces interesting specimens like yourself, who will actually defend their abuser. You are no better than a house n**. No better than kapo.

[ladsin]

@Goochbreaker quite certain you're a troll now, but no mercenary is sent after you if you leave our country. Stop pretending.

[MrMysteryMan]

Military:
I've always wondered, if we are a Christian society or in the pursuit of loving "GOD" (we won't get to religious here because that will just open up more "moral" debates actually), why we spend so much on ways to destroy and kill another? The US spends BILLIONS on better ways to kill really. Just like the "Lord of War" says, a gun and bullets were made to do one thing, kill. But it's a slippery slope, since to protect yourself and the nation, you almost have to have these weapons for "just in case" or just to keep the loose cannons at bay, since they know they will die just as fast as you will. I don't know, I wish it never escalated to this point in weaponry. It went from hunting to take-over.

Cheating:
Yeah I've done it. And I've also had it done to me. It's one of the worst feelings on both sides, doing it to someone, making their whole world turn upside down and crumble underneath them. Yeah it hurts so bad. I was utterly amazed that a business would build themselves around something so devastating to someone and try and make a profit from it. But I suppose it's no worse than justifying war. But the scars from it alter a person's view of relationships and people in general. And it hurts more than one life usually.

Feminism:
It went too far the other way, the strive for equality. It's now a strive to conquer. Which was never the intent. Also, I hate how men and women are to one another now. The bullshit men swearing off women drive and women embellishing things like #metoo for what, attention sometimes, and it happens. People are using something we should all strive for as a weapon against the other. Just another war really we don't need. You know, equality is easy really, it's the ones that have their own personal chip on their shoulders or sense of arrogance and failure to communicate that destroys the notion. It's really not that hard to have a woman as an equal, it's actually essential for survival if you ask me.

[Anonymous]

The first premise is based on the idea of "No First Offender" but that's obviously not realistic. You absolutely need to try again there as without that axiom it is just not viable.

The second premise is obvious but it is derived incorrectly. The problem is that it is a buzzword that's overwhelmingly misused. "Cheating" in context is nothing more than simple lying and breach of social contract. So when we come to this issue it is generally overstated; the same people will wave white lies with their friends in the name of "protecting them" as if there is a hierarchy to lying.

The third argument has a lot of holes in it including unsubstantiated claims such as women being born as nurturers which is factually a gender role. Arguing that misrepresentation is immoral also has nothing to do with any ideology, Feminism included, and is an overextension intended to vilify which is (ironically) misrepresentation and therefore immoral according to you.

But it must have been fun to play for a little bit. You probably will get applause for hitting popular topics and holding popular opinion on those topics versus the actual build of your moral argumentation which has more holes than Swiss cheese and they're larger than Galle on Mars.

[Goochbreaker]

ROFL buddy you think you are a lot smarter than you are. You think women being nurturers is a 'gender role'? It's literally built into the biochemistry of their brains... they are capable of nourishing simply through their breasts... don't give me this gender role bullshit. And your last paragraph really communicates just how much you jerk yourself off over your perceived intellectual superiority. About cheating... of course their is a hierarchy to lying. If I tell you the cheese is 3 years aged when it's 2 years aged, it doesn't fucking matter, if I tell you this glass of lava is actually water and convince you to believe it, THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A BIT OF A PROBLEM NOW ISN'T IT? You are vague as fuck with your first point, you need to elaborate

[Opinion Owner]

"And your last paragraph really communicates just how much you jerk yourself off over your perceived intellectual superiority."

To me this is common parlance. To you it is a "representation of intellectual superiority". In short what is normal to me seems extraordinary to you. Also, breastmilk isn't a brain function. You are not a very smart man.

[Goochbreaker]

I didn't claim breastmilk was a brain function... it's a separate point, and have you completely missed the point that the fact that females produce breastmilk proves they are BIOLOGICALLY the nurturing gender, it's not just some gender role. Lol I'm not marveling at your vocabulary, more so your attitude... I'm not sure you understand.

'but it's been fun to play for a little bit' common dude don't play dumb with me, I know a cunt when I see one. You are a classic case, choosing to interpret my words in whatever way puts you on top and makes me the dumbass. I'll have you know that an entirely different interpretation exists, one where you are 'not a very smart man'. I am in no way calling you intellectually superior, I won't let you suffer under any illusions in regards to that. I am merely taking notice of your vain attempt at trying to appear that way. Lovely adjectives, great similes, your arguments still suck.

[Opinion Owner]

You're not even capable.

[Goochbreaker]

We need more takes like this. This is top notch stuff, don't be afraid to take a stance and stick with it, the world is full of immorality and it only continues to exist because so many of us hold our heads down and say nothing. I implore you all to speak up, just like white widow is doing, and maybe someday we can enjoy a better world where one's happiness does not depend on the misery of another.

Brilliant job :)

[Whateverfloatsmyboat]

Great take. As a matter of fact, the feminism part was something I talked about with this friend of mine last night. Pretty heavy shit.

[LoveLifeHome]

Among other interviews he's given, this is absolutely essential.

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54

[BOUNTYGUY9]

STOP ALL WARS WORLD WIDE AND LIVE IN PEACE WITH EACH OTHER XX

[Anonymous]

do you honestly believe a country that elects donald trump is a moral society?

[Goochbreaker]

a country that elects ANYONE to rule over them is immoral. The ideals of democracy and the people ruling themselves through a government are utopian and idealistic. Each to rule themselves, that is the only moral solution. Donald trump is the best politician ever, and he's still an evil bastard

[Emma_240302]

Agreed

[CT_CD]

amazing myTake