That's not the way the British government works. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...
Interesting perspective. From outside the UK I’m not even hearing a whimper or a better deal from the EU so if that’s what people in the UK think (no clue if it’s true!) that’s fascinating.
Over time, the EU proportion of the UK's overseas trade is moving steadily in one direction - down. In 2017, we had a trade deficit of £67 billion with the EU. The UK is the German motor trade's single largest customer. They're starting to shit themselves.
'Hard Brexit' in reality means WTO rules, until a better deal is negotiated. It's not the Apocalypse, and is highly unlikely to be as disruptive as all the usual suspects claim. They're often the same people who told us we were doomed if we didn't join the euro.
I am smarter now after reading this. I think it will work out just fine the UK... just as it has for what hundreds of years? A very well written take and your view comes out clear.
Yes, the UK will be leaving in May no matter what. both the UK and the EU must agree to extent the exit if so, and the EU won't agree due to the upcoming election.
I'll put this in simple terms. It's not directly analogous, but it's the best I can come up with this early in the morning.
1. Assume California votes to leave the US. No deal would mean passport controls, work permits to work in the rump US, customs barriers, disruption to supply chains. Deal would mean that the impact of these is either removed or lessened.
2. Assume the US votes to leave NAFTA. One of the conditions for doing so is that Alaska remains in a customs union with Canada, and is subject to many laws that Canada makes, without any Alaskan input into them. The people in Alaska and the rest of the US do not like this.
As I say, not directly analogous, but that is why it matters. Personally, I'm OK about leaving on WTO rules. I don't think it will be as disruptive as the naysayers claim. They've been wrong about many, many other things relating to the British relationship with the EU before.
I guess I still don't get it. If California left, folks would just have to figure out how to get by. Brexit was supposed to be about leaving the European union, why should there be any concerns about passports and work permits? If you can't work in the EU because you are British citizen, then you can't work in the EU, and vice versa.
California leaving the US is a theoretical situation, used to illustrate a point. Your comments that California would automatically become a third party country are pure conjecture.
Three former Trust Territories of the United States, Palau, the Marshall Islands and the Northern Marianas retain access to residence in the United States, and unrestricted access to the United States labour market. This is despite them not being United States citizens. Same goes for Russia and Belarus, in each other's respective countries. And others.
That's the sort of deal some people want to retain. I'm not bothered either way. That wasn't why I voted Leave.
Dude, that was your hypothetical, not mine. Perhaps this is a cultural issue. In America, if such a thing would be proposed it would probably be a situation where not as many people would be concerned about damage to the economy or the well being of families and individuals impacted negatively.
You have to understand that "we" are Americans. We don't really have the same kinds of concerns about our citizens, as say most in British society. If you note that in our debate about the government shutdown, those who are not impacted are not really concerned about those who are.
Perhaps this is the source of differences in understanding about the situation.
Sufficed to say, that Brexit is being handled in a very European. . . and British way.
I think you know the kind of brutish way it would be handled if it were an issue happening with an American state.
There probably would not be this much negotiation.
The people voted to get out and their gov won't listen, sounds very familiar only most things in the US they don't give a vote on, they just do as they please.
i don't quite understand how this "freedom" helps you economically in any way shape or form. you shot yourself in the foot, that's what happened. the brexit referendum was an intelligence check and the brits failed.
This illustrates very clearly how so many of the EU's supporters simply do not get it.
We didn't vote for Brexit to make ourselves richer, we voted for a better future. One in which democratic accountability isn't cast aside, because it's inconvenient to some faceless entity in Brussels.
it's not like the brits weren't incredible immune to the control of the eu before the brexit. you didn't even adopt the currency xD all brexit gives you will be higer import/export taxes which will suck for you. yeah i do see the benefit of having the agricultural sovereignity cause i actually disagree with that part of the eu too but i think the international peace and trading comfort as well as overall financial stability it brought to the area isn't worth sacrificing for that.
Well, the tariffs could be higher with the EU (although that's not yet certain), but they can also be lowered for the rest of the world.
Don't forget, we do less and less of our international trade with the EU, and that's been a directional trend for some time. I think 80% or more of our companies do no trade at all with the EU. So it won't be as much of a wrench as some people seem to believe.
His big fuck was leading the Remain campaign. He could easily have stayed on as PM, if he'd just stayed neutral throughout the campaign, said what he thought on the final day, and hadn't nailed his colours so firmly to the mast...
I'm really surprised that you've got such a rosy view of the EU. It's not a friend to the US. For instance, the EU charges a 10% tariff on American car imports. The US only charges a 2.5% tariff on EU produced cars. I'm surprised you think that's OK?
@JimRSmith Yeah, in terms of external trade the EU can be a big ass and put high tariffs on other nations. Yet, they do complain when Trump does the equivalent.
@Waffles731 Meh, the main areas where Russia could profit from a weakened EU is if they somehow gave lots of money to some countries.
Since the Baltics are heavily opposed to Russia, just like Poland, Ukraine and generally all nations in Europe, I doubt it matters that much.
When curbing Russia, NATO is what matters.
Only when the relations between European nations get really incredibly sour would Russia gain anything tangible. But even then, there is still the US
Hard brexit is coming, it too late for new negotiations. Westminster should have talked two years ago and found the common ground needed for entering negotiations, now it's too late.
There will be no new deal, no extension of time, so it's May's deal or no deal. And nobody likes May's deal, so it's down to hard brexit.
Perhaps getting rid of the UK will be beneficial in the end, with this kind of attitude who needs them in the EU.
'Hard Brexit' is simply World Trade Organisation rules.
It's no good you trying to blame this on Westminster - the EU never negotiated in good faith, from the start. They were more interested in making sure no other countries left, than in securing a mutually satisfactory arrangement.
I suspect that's going to come back to bite them in the arse at some point.
When negotiating you are going for your own interest, lettin gthe UK get the benefint without the paying was never on the table in anybody mind outside the UK.
The UK behaviour is like a privileged spoiled brad, you want to do it on you own, please go ahead, but don't blame the rest of us for not handing over our interest to you free of charge.
This deal is not about the future between the UK and the EU, it's about the divorce settlement. Free trade agreement is not possible outside a Norwegian deal, and the UK do not wish such a deal.
What exactly do the UK want, right now nobody can tell, Westminster is in a complete disarray, no unity and clear wish outside what can't be given.
Hard Brexit is simply the WTO rules, and this is what we will get. The UK will be like the US from an EU perspective. But no matter you don't want to be European anyway do you.
We will survive without the complete pigs breakfast the UK always made :)
The UK is part of European, by geography, languages, culture, history, and religion. You every bit as European the rest of us, only you are not proud if it, but rather ashamed.
You dream of the old imperial days, where you ruled a good part of the world, however, the days are over. Now the American and Chinese and Russians set the order of the day, you are very little to say, just like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have very little say.
You can't even control the commonwealth of nations, you are back to being just another small island nation. However, to a big and powerful cousin in the US of A.
The idea that we become "a small island nation" (do you have some kind of North Atlantic version of Samoa in mind, because it sounds like you do?) is laughable.
I'll give you a few facts.
1. We are the fifth largest economy in the world. 2. Along with the US, we are the only country able to project our military power anywhere around the globe. 3. We are a permanent member of the UN Security Council. 4. London is the world's financial capital. 5. We are a founder member of the Commonwealth.
I could go on, but there's probably no need.
On the Commonwealth, unlike the EU, that's not about 'control' as you put it. It's about shared values, not about building an empire, unlike the EU.
Any criticism of the UK is laughable in your eyes.
1. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.
Let's see for how long ;)
2. Along with the US, we are the only country able to project our military power anywhere around the globe.
What about France, Russia, and China, all nuclear powers with aircraft carriers.
3. We are a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
And this influences your economy how? You have a legacy from your imperial days we all know that.
4. London is the world's financial capital.
No, it's Europe and it's ranked no 2 globally, supersede by New York - blasted colonials :)
5. We are a founder member of the Commonwealth.
Yes a legacy from your imperial days, but the Commonwealth of nations have little economic influence in 2019. Most members are rather poor countries, that despite its huge combined population isn't as large as you might think.
You hardly share any values in Commonwealth outside some sporting events.
It's clear you consider the word Great in Great Britain to be taken literally, old imperial dreams I would say.
Yes, a fascinating thread. I learned a great deal. As an American, I could never quite grasp how those thousands of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels added value to the British economy, especially in light of what the UK contributes. Do the British really need to have their electric tea kettles approved by the EU?
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That's not the way the British government works.
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...
"See the violence inherent in the system! "
Interesting perspective. From outside the UK I’m not even hearing a whimper or a better deal from the EU so if that’s what people in the UK think (no clue if it’s true!) that’s fascinating.
From here it looks like hard brexit is coming.
Over time, the EU proportion of the UK's overseas trade is moving steadily in one direction - down. In 2017, we had a trade deficit of £67 billion with the EU. The UK is the German motor trade's single largest customer. They're starting to shit themselves.
www.ft.com/.../c06b1762-761d-11e8-b326-75a27d27ea5f
'Hard Brexit' in reality means WTO rules, until a better deal is negotiated. It's not the Apocalypse, and is highly unlikely to be as disruptive as all the usual suspects claim. They're often the same people who told us we were doomed if we didn't join the euro.
I am smarter now after reading this.
I think it will work out just fine the UK... just as it has for what hundreds of years?
A very well written take and your view comes out clear.
I don't understand this part of British politics. I take it you are a Brexit supporter.
I don't get why the deal was voted down. But whatever. Aren't you guys leaving in May no matter what?
So why does it matter?
Yes, the UK will be leaving in May no matter what. both the UK and the EU must agree to extent the exit if so, and the EU won't agree due to the upcoming election.
We're supposed to leave at the end of March. Like all deadlines it can extended.
I'll put this in simple terms. It's not directly analogous, but it's the best I can come up with this early in the morning.
1. Assume California votes to leave the US. No deal would mean passport controls, work permits to work in the rump US, customs barriers, disruption to supply chains. Deal would mean that the impact of these is either removed or lessened.
2. Assume the US votes to leave NAFTA. One of the conditions for doing so is that Alaska remains in a customs union with Canada, and is subject to many laws that Canada makes, without any Alaskan input into them. The people in Alaska and the rest of the US do not like this.
As I say, not directly analogous, but that is why it matters. Personally, I'm OK about leaving on WTO rules. I don't think it will be as disruptive as the naysayers claim. They've been wrong about many, many other things relating to the British relationship with the EU before.
I guess I still don't get it. If California left, folks would just have to figure out how to get by. Brexit was supposed to be about leaving the European union, why should there be any concerns about passports and work permits? If you can't work in the EU because you are British citizen, then you can't work in the EU, and vice versa.
California leaving the US is a theoretical situation, used to illustrate a point. Your comments that California would automatically become a third party country are pure conjecture.
Three former Trust Territories of the United States, Palau, the Marshall Islands and the Northern Marianas retain access to residence in the United States, and unrestricted access to the United States labour market. This is despite them not being United States citizens. Same goes for Russia and Belarus, in each other's respective countries. And others.
That's the sort of deal some people want to retain. I'm not bothered either way. That wasn't why I voted Leave.
Conjecture?
Dude, that was your hypothetical, not mine. Perhaps this is a cultural issue. In America, if such a thing would be proposed it would probably be a situation where not as many people would be concerned about damage to the economy or the well being of families and individuals impacted negatively.
You have to understand that "we" are Americans. We don't really have the same kinds of concerns about our citizens, as say most in British society. If you note that in our debate about the government shutdown, those who are not impacted are not really concerned about those who are.
Perhaps this is the source of differences in understanding about the situation.
Sufficed to say, that Brexit is being handled in a very European. . . and British way.
I think you know the kind of brutish way it would be handled if it were an issue happening with an American state.
There probably would not be this much negotiation.
The people voted to get out and their gov won't listen, sounds very familiar only most things in the US they don't give a vote on, they just do as they please.
They will leave, the issue is about on what terms they leave.
As long as we don't have to pay for medical care (like US prices) then I am good with whatever once the dust settles!
i don't quite understand how this "freedom" helps you economically in any way shape or form. you shot yourself in the foot, that's what happened. the brexit referendum was an intelligence check and the brits failed.
This illustrates very clearly how so many of the EU's supporters simply do not get it.
We didn't vote for Brexit to make ourselves richer, we voted for a better future. One in which democratic accountability isn't cast aside, because it's inconvenient to some faceless entity in Brussels.
tell me more about how leaving the eu enables democratic accountability. what benefits are you hoping to get from this?
economy is always like a sine wave. leaving the boat while it goes down isn't smart.
Being able to govern ourselves, without interference from the EU, for a start.
Controlling our own immigration, to suit our needs, rather than subcontracting it out to an irresponsible third party.
Being able to organise our agriculture and fisheries according to our own needs, and to set our own trading tariffs on the open market.
it's not like the brits weren't incredible immune to the control of the eu before the brexit. you didn't even adopt the currency xD all brexit gives you will be higer import/export taxes which will suck for you. yeah i do see the benefit of having the agricultural sovereignity cause i actually disagree with that part of the eu too but i think the international peace and trading comfort as well as overall financial stability it brought to the area isn't worth sacrificing for that.
there's no denying that the eu policy on milk meat and fish especially are idiotic.
Well, the tariffs could be higher with the EU (although that's not yet certain), but they can also be lowered for the rest of the world.
Don't forget, we do less and less of our international trade with the EU, and that's been a directional trend for some time. I think 80% or more of our companies do no trade at all with the EU. So it won't be as much of a wrench as some people seem to believe.
The UK will be fine, the economy grows will not be as fast as in the EU but otherwise, there won't be any difference.
Hard brexit or bust. It's too late for any other options at this point.
Honestly, I hope they fail to negotiate a deal and David Cameron gets put in a guilloutine.
Why? Because he did what he said he would, and held a democratic vote on an issue which people have been denied their say on for decades?
He just did it to get reelected and then f*cked right off like the little c*nt he is.
His big fuck was leading the Remain campaign. He could easily have stayed on as PM, if he'd just stayed neutral throughout the campaign, said what he thought on the final day, and hadn't nailed his colours so firmly to the mast...
I agree with James
I personally think that Brexit is good for no one but Russia, a weakened EU being exactly what they want
I'm really surprised that you've got such a rosy view of the EU. It's not a friend to the US. For instance, the EU charges a 10% tariff on American car imports. The US only charges a 2.5% tariff on EU produced cars. I'm surprised you think that's OK?
@JimRSmith Yeah, in terms of external trade the EU can be a big ass and put high tariffs on other nations. Yet, they do complain when Trump does the equivalent.
@Waffles731 Meh, the main areas where Russia could profit from a weakened EU is if they somehow gave lots of money to some countries.
Since the Baltics are heavily opposed to Russia, just like Poland, Ukraine and generally all nations in Europe, I doubt it matters that much.
When curbing Russia, NATO is what matters.
Only when the relations between European nations get really incredibly sour would Russia gain anything tangible. But even then, there is still the US
Putin loves Brexit and the US government shutdown!
@tartaarsaus It's Russian policy to destabilise all it's enemy's (both the US and EU), so yes EU is a target to destabilise it's NATO enemies here.
However, covert warfare is not new and this have been done by the US for decades around the world.
Where the UK is? in deep shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGbb_YSkGHohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r637kZ7Ux2o
Not half as much shit as the EU's in, pal...
Hard brexit is coming, it too late for new negotiations. Westminster should have talked two years ago and found the common ground needed for entering negotiations, now it's too late.
There will be no new deal, no extension of time, so it's May's deal or no deal. And nobody likes May's deal, so it's down to hard brexit.
Perhaps getting rid of the UK will be beneficial in the end, with this kind of attitude who needs them in the EU.
'Hard Brexit' is simply World Trade Organisation rules.
It's no good you trying to blame this on Westminster - the EU never negotiated in good faith, from the start. They were more interested in making sure no other countries left, than in securing a mutually satisfactory arrangement.
I suspect that's going to come back to bite them in the arse at some point.
When negotiating you are going for your own interest, lettin gthe UK get the benefint without the paying was never on the table in anybody mind outside the UK.
The UK behaviour is like a privileged spoiled brad, you want to do it on you own, please go ahead, but don't blame the rest of us for not handing over our interest to you free of charge.
This deal is not about the future between the UK and the EU, it's about the divorce settlement. Free trade agreement is not possible outside a Norwegian deal, and the UK do not wish such a deal.
What exactly do the UK want, right now nobody can tell, Westminster is in a complete disarray, no unity and clear wish outside what can't be given.
Hard Brexit is simply the WTO rules, and this is what we will get. The UK will be like the US from an EU perspective. But no matter you don't want to be European anyway do you.
Buy felicia :)
We're not European, in anything other than the geographic sense, and that's the point.
WTO rules is fine by us. Not so good for you, though...
We will survive without the complete pigs breakfast the UK always made :)
The UK is part of European, by geography, languages, culture, history, and religion. You every bit as European the rest of us, only you are not proud if it, but rather ashamed.
You dream of the old imperial days, where you ruled a good part of the world, however, the days are over. Now the American and Chinese and Russians set the order of the day, you are very little to say, just like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have very little say.
You can't even control the commonwealth of nations, you are back to being just another small island nation. However, to a big and powerful cousin in the US of A.
The idea that we become "a small island nation" (do you have some kind of North Atlantic version of Samoa in mind, because it sounds like you do?) is laughable.
I'll give you a few facts.
1. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.
2. Along with the US, we are the only country able to project our military power anywhere around the globe.
3. We are a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
4. London is the world's financial capital.
5. We are a founder member of the Commonwealth.
I could go on, but there's probably no need.
On the Commonwealth, unlike the EU, that's not about 'control' as you put it. It's about shared values, not about building an empire, unlike the EU.
Any criticism of the UK is laughable in your eyes.
1. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.
Let's see for how long ;)
2. Along with the US, we are the only country able to project our military power anywhere around the globe.
What about France, Russia, and China, all nuclear powers with aircraft carriers.
3. We are a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
And this influences your economy how?
You have a legacy from your imperial days we all know that.
4. London is the world's financial capital.
No, it's Europe and it's ranked no 2 globally, supersede by New York - blasted colonials :)
5. We are a founder member of the Commonwealth.
Yes a legacy from your imperial days, but the Commonwealth of nations have little economic influence in 2019. Most members are rather poor countries, that despite its huge combined population isn't as large as you might think.
You hardly share any values in Commonwealth outside some sporting events.
It's clear you consider the word Great in Great Britain to be taken literally, old imperial dreams I would say.
You started it. And it appears that you don't speak for everybody in the EU, anyway, surprise, surprise - these lot are begging us to stay...
www.dw.com/.../a-47132376
A very nice and thoughtfully written myTake.
Thanks, Alistayr :)
You're welcome.
Yes, a fascinating thread. I learned a great deal. As an American, I could never quite grasp how those thousands of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels added value to the British economy, especially in light of what the UK contributes. Do the British really need to have their electric tea kettles approved by the EU?
Some of us suspected what would happen before we joined.
Wish the whole brexit mess had never been offered. I, like the rest of my family voted remain.
If folk had known the shambolic mess we're in now?
This was informative, thank you
This was informative
we may we fucked u forgot add it to the title :)
Interesting
Nice take