Delineating Humans And Apes

[ladsin]

So a lady on here recently asked how I dilineate humans from apes and I wrote a rather long response which I’m decently proud of and don’t want to waste. As such I’m going to share it as a myTake to see what y’all think, and for easier access in the future if I need it.

*Before I go further I should state that I’m not a biologist of any stripe. I’m just a curious guy who reads on my own, so if there are any biologists out there who note I got something wrong I apologize and please correct me*

We’re in this family because we’re all large tailless primates with enlarged craniums, prognathous (projected) jaws (although reduced in humans we still have them), we all have the same dental formula, none of us have ischial callocites (think of a baboons butt), and we’ve got opposable digits (although humans lost that in our toe-thumbs). Another shared characteristic of the other three is that all have baculum (penis bones) which humans normally do not although we sometimes get them in atavism.

The common ancestor of all hominidae is believed to have existed ~14 million years ago (mya).

After hominids we split from our orangutan friends to make hominine ~12mya.

Then we split with our Gorilla friends ~6mya and from our chimp friends in homininan ~4mya.

So enough of the cool science stuff and back to the question. “Were the first humans apes or something between apes and humans.” I already answered the first that yes they were apes just as were still apes. All creatures are taxonomically classified in the same group as their parent species because they retain traits indicative of that taxon whether or not they form a new species. So we’re still apes for the same reason that we’re still bilateral deuterostomes and vertebrate mammals. To your second question, yes, the first “humans” (genus homo) were something between our common ancestor and us. Other species of homo (humans) included rudolfensis, erectus, habilis, sapiens, and us Homo Sapien Sapiens. Not all were as complex as us and all others died off for one reason or another.

Lastly you ask, “Where do you draw the line between ape and human?” As I said we are ape, but I think what you’re actually asking here is a moral rather than scientific question about how I dilineate the difference in value between humans and other apes. To that I would firstly say tribalism plays a part. I’m human and thus humans are obviously more important to me than other apes. Secondly humans are far more complex and as a result have a greater capacity for pain and pleasure. This means that doing something bad to an innocent human is worse than doing something bad to an innocent orangutan because the harm caused is greater.

Hope that helped a bit.”

Thanks for reading, any clarifications are appreciated.

[goaded]

Here's something I wrote on the subject nine months ago...

I'm not religious, but even the Catholic Church is accepting of evolution.

There has been 150 years worth of biologists, any of whom would have become instantly famous if they found anything that really disproves evolution. Instead, scientific and technological advances have reinforced the evidence for evolution every step of the way since Wallace and Darwin proposed it.

Humans are related to dogs, birds, and whales, and insects and jellyfish, for that matter, you just have to keep going further back in time to find a common ancestor.

The common ancestors of chimps and humans lived about 7 million years ago, the common ancestors of chimps, humans and gorillas lived about 10 million years ago. You can keep going back, the common ancestors of all four-legged animals (including all mammals, lizards, dinosaurs and birds) were around 395 million years ago, vertebrates (anything with a backbone) 500+ million years ago, back to single celled creatures 2100+ million years ago.

You are descended from your great-great-great grandparents, right? They're not still around, but there's a good chance you have fourth or fifth cousins also descended from the same couple. They probably don't look as much like you as your siblings or first cousins do.

Now, try imagining your 50th cousins, descended from a couple who lived in about the year 1000 (I could be one of them!), you wouldn't recognise them as family.

Your 500th cousins would have had a common ancestor living about 9000 years BC and be spread all over the world.

Keep going back, and imagine your 5000th cousins, or your 50000th cousins. Some of them might be quite a bit hairier than us and live in trees.

The common ancestors and their peers have long ago turned to dust, or (very rarely) fossils, but their descendants, who all looked very much like their parents, now look very different from their distant ancestors and very different to each other.

[Hurdleez-Swampede]

There is much evidences that humans and apes did not come from each other but that we were wonderfully created by God.

johnhawks.net/.../humans-arent-apes-2012.html

https://creation.com/did-humans-evolve-from-apes

https://creation.com/chimp-human-similarity

answersingenesis.org/.../

You may say but 3 of these 4 are creation sources and you're right but the source doesn't matter if they provide the evidences showing we aren't the same nor came from them.

[Pink2000]

We did not come from monkeys 😐😒

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Good take. Also we know how humans evolved from apes; a process called neoteny where juvenile traits are retained into adulthood. In this case it's the shape of the skull; the cranium remains large relative to the total size in adulthood. Unfortunately this also means that our face doesn't protrude so there isn't enough room for our wisdom teeth.

Many people think evolution means member of one clade evolving into another (like cats evolving into dogs). Instead it consists of speciation events each giving rise to a new clade. Going back to cats and dogs, they don't look too much alike but a member of the fox family has many traits in common with the house cat. That's because the cat and dog families belong to a larger clade (the carnivorans) which shared a common ancestor 40 million years ago called miacis. This animal would have looked like a modern genet (which has features of both cats and foxes) which would then have evolved into the first member of the dog and cat families (who would have looked like a fox and cat respectively) who then diversified into all the members of the cat and dog families.

[Curmudgeon]

Is that second picture of the late Koko, with her handler Francine "Penny" Patterson?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Patterson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)

[Grond21]

So even though you said you're not a biologist, why did you only focus on the biological history? In order to delineate humans and apes, you need to say what makes us different now, not just that we differentiated at one point historically.
For example, our ability to reason, our ability to imagine the future, our ability to ask the question why, our ability to think about thinking, etc.

[GuidoThePizzaMaker]

I appreciate the effort you made. but evolution is to fickle a science.
Humans and apes have many similarities, however we never had a common ancestor. There is 0 empirical evidence for it.

[purplepoppy]

It's said that bedrooms are always upstairs because apes make beds in trees. there's something buried in out psyche to climb before sleeping.

[taleswapper]

"This means that doing something bad to an innocent human is worse than doing something bad to an innocent orangutan because the harm caused is greater."

I think I would have said "... my empathy is less offended." There's no objective measure of harm, and you've couched it in terms of tribalism, after all. I suspect the orangutans would find the harm done weighted the other way... ;)

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

Science has been clear that humans are primates since like, forever ago. Is this really still a question in anybody's mind?

[FroztyDaHoMan]

Anybody notice that the bible and science completely contradict each other? Now I know you will say well that disproves the bible but what if all of these things are contrary to the bible simply because the people pulling the strings simply want us to go against the bible?

[Passinggas]

But take it back even further in that we possess the lizard brain at our lowest brain functions. So is first the first picture you in your mommy's arms? You're a cute kid.

[smg99]

Wonderfully written and the logical reasoning of its psycho-social dimension is something I believe too.
Great read :)

[White-American89]

I think it's wrong to project human qualities on to wild animals, an ape will beat you to death in the wild. Let apes be apes free from human interference.

[bioscientist]

Nice diagram from Wikipedia:

[zagor]

Well, at one point I would have said one of the distinctions is that humans don't fling shit at each other, but then I saw that video of that woman at 7-11...

[MannySimms]

I suppose some people would rather feel special than form an opinion due to evidence. It's far easier to state the POOF!! theory than research an issue, plus you get to have a wonderful afterlife! I have fun asking creationists why males of so many species have nipples. They will NOT offer an opinion. They know they're better than you since they're in a certain social club that requires dues. That kind of thinking makes me sick

[Phoenix98]

I honestly do not believe we came from apes but it's all good if you want to, diversity of opinion, makes for interesting discussion.

[ShadowofRegret]

So tell me, what is this "common ancester" you speak of?

What is it exactly and what did it look like? Tell me the details.

[HereIbe]

Humans ARE apes.

We are in the Hominidae, along with chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.
Within the Hominidae, we are in the Homininae, along with chimpanzees and gorillas.

[Nadim171]

I beleive we looked more like apes but we aren't from the same spiecy. Just like lions and tigers look similar but each comes from a different speicy

[Deathraider]

Yas! Good.

[needadvice1245]

Adam and eve.