Conflict Resolution in Non-Human Apes

[ladsin]

Where does violence come from? How violent are we? Are we becoming more or less violent with time? Is violence innate or something learned? How do we deter violence?

The topic of violence has enthralled humans apparently since our inception. I've recently been reading a book on the topic of violence, The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. It is a fascinating book, and made me want to shed some of my own thoughts on the topic. This is such a massive subject that I'm sure I would need to do at least a dozen takes on the subject just for us all to have a passing understanding of the subject. I may do that in time, but for today we'll just stick with one. I pondered where to start on this subject. One of the first questions that we need to address is where violence comes from. Is it something that we picked up from our ancestors, or is it unique to us? For this myTake I wanted to talk about conflict resolution among two of our closest extant cousins, chimpanzees and bonobos. We share approximately 98% of our DNA with both species, and I won't bother trying to teach evolution here. If you don't accept the science of evolution... Just read for interest of their behavior anyway.

Chimpanzees

Lethal Aggression in Pan Is Better Explained by Adaptive Strategies Than Human Impacts by Michael L. Wilson, Christophe Boesch, Barbara Fruth (many more authors! All credit to them, I just have a limited space to work with.) Is one of the most comprehensive studies on the subject of violence in the species Pan. Pan refers to both pan troglodytes and pan paniscus, or Chimpanzee and Bonobo respectively. Frequently people think that chimpanzees resort to violence as a result of human interaction, deforestation and the like, but in this study it was quite conclusively determined that human interaction has very little impact on aggression in chimp males. Actually, it appears that chimps mostly attack other chimp groups to gain land. This is highly reminiscent of violence in human hunter-gatherer groups prior to centration of government. The authors noted lethal violence in 15 of 18 chimpanzee communities. Males made up over 90% of the attacking parties, and when they attacked another chimp they outnumbered their victims 8:1. This is starkly contrasted with human violence only in that it appears we are likely to take greater risks.

Bonobos

The same study noted above also studied violence amongst our other close cousins. The Bonobos greatly differ from the Chimpanzees in that they rarely conduct violence, in fact the researchers had only noted one possible killing in a Bonobo community, and that was only suspected. Frans De Waal further explains that after 100s of hours of observation that he discovered Bonobos use sexual contact as a means of conflict resolution. If a fight is about to break out amongst two Bonobos they will just have sex instead. This happens quite frequently over fights about food, but has been noted between contests over females, over the striking of another Bonobo's child, and general annoyance. It's incredibly interesting to study Bonobo sex because they are so unique. Males and females appear to be equal in their communities, they have front facing sex, kiss profusely, have hetero and homo sex, will have sex between the young and old etc.

*Warning Bonobo Sex*

What does this mean for us?

Well, I'm not entirely sure. These two cousins have greatly differing means of conflict resolution, and yet both are incredibly closely related to us. I think that studying these two species can grant us valuable insights into our own biological predispositions. In looking at humans throughout antiquity it seems to me that our behavior is much more concordant with Chimpanzees but many societies today seem to be moving more towards a Bonobo type of societal structure. Perhaps many of our ancestors were once quite similar to the Bonobo and they just died out?

Anyway let me know how I did, if there's anything I can improve upon I'd appreciate the information.

Websites used-

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/13041029/MW%20Nature%20Accepted.pdf?sequence=1

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bonobo-sex-and-society-2006-06/

[brennanhuff]

A lot of it is culture, cultures that have a high priority of hierarchy and dominance, are more likely to have lopsided class structure, which means more poverty. Often statistics show places of high violence and rates are often in places of poverty. And also the more hierarchal the culture, the more one group is on a totem pole and others below. Whether it be class, race, sex. More likely of groups oppressed whether sex, race, ethnicity. Whatever natural tendencies humans have, the culture internalized can bring out the worst and best. One's that were more partnerhship had much less violence, low or lower rates of rape and sexual assault. And that's nice to know, I'm a man, you're a man. I'd like to believe we're not so disproportionately more violent than women. It may be in a man's biology to be more aggressive and easier to get violent, but not to the lopsidedness that it is and perhaps not as far apart as people think. There's many layers

[ladsin]

Eh, all cultures are violent. The cultures that continue to be extremely violent today simply haven't adopted practices that prevent them.
The evolutionary basis accounts for where it comes from, culture just regulates it. For example, American college students overwhelmingly say that they contemplate murder. 80% of males and 60% of females if I recall correctly.

[brennanhuff]

I think you took those words too literally by both male and female students. 80% and 60% female do not want to murder literally, the stress and maybe frustration toward their teaches made them feel emotion to say something like that, but not literally. Most cultures are fairly violent, because most cultures have a dominantion mindset. Sweden and the Netherleand countries have lower rates or had lower rates of violence compared to other parts of the country. Sweden changed over past years. You know why? Because their dumbasses, took in too many people than they can handle without properly vetting. Middle Eastern countries, of men there with fundamentalist views of women. And non surprisingly the rapes crimes and assaults went up big time and that further proves how culture is a bigger decider. There was a study that showed 80% of the sexual assaults in Sweden were from immigrants.

[ladsin]

The students polled went on to further state that they actually contemplated murder. How they would do it and when. The reasons they gave were the same as we see in prisons. My girlfriend cheated on me. My neighbor stole from me. This person wronged me etc.

The swedes were originally violent as well. They didn't just get a piece of land without fighting for it.

[Douma]

You defenetly make a good point.

[Douma]

to Ladsin - Native Indians for sure were very peaceful and still are. But Christians should stop calling them demons because that is provoking and those christains are not real christians but call themselves christians and do nothing that is in the bible at all.

[ladsin]

@Douma The natives weren't very peaceful... For example the Aztecs were giving human sacrifices en masse to their gods long before we arrived.
They were warring amongst themselves long before we arrived as well.
That doesn't justify the acts of the original settlers, just as a matter of history and subsequently the study of psychology it's wrong.

[Douma]

to Ladsin - Native Indians to have wisdom. But the world is far behind their wisdom even today. They have everything good arranged what brings peace and is what the world must learn so we can learn a lot from Indians but all I want is Christians to provoke them and call them demons. Christians should work on their own demons instead because they have a lot.

[ladsin]

@Douma are you being serious, or is this a joke? Just let me know, and I'll know how to proceed.

[Douma]

I am serious.

[ladsin]

@Douma Cool, why do you think the natives had, "wisdom." Also how aware are you of the warring between tribes?

[Douma]

Actually it is the people from Norway that over a sudden interfered in many countries even many countries in Europe. They were warring very much so and many European countries have nothing to do with it but I tell you history will repeat. Those who are most ignored will come into revolt

[ladsin]

@Douma What?

[Douma]

I am talking about the Vikings. Do not forget about them.

[Douma]

People become violent when you provoke them.

[ladsin]

Or when unprovoked lol

[rjroy3]

Obviously less violent. It wasn't too long ago where if you got into a fight getting your eye gouged out, balls shredded and fingers bitten off was the norm (kind of like other primates still do). That's why boxing was called "The Gentleman's Sport". Because a "gentleman" wouldn't be so gruesome.

We're animals. We just like to logically separate ourselves from nature, when the reality is we are apart of nature. We're less violent by our choosing, but that violence is still in us and the energy needs to be exercised.

[ladsin]

Interestingly the biggest difference between pre-civilized human violence and chimp violence is that we're more likely to die when we're the attacking party. Attacking chimps are almost never injured at all.

[rjroy3]

I don't know about that. I think it varies just like humans. If you ever watch animal documentaries sometimes it's a fight to the death or fight to backdown. Oftentimes one leaves with an injury that equates to a death sentence in the wild. Humans with similar injuries would live on, because of our adaptability.

[ladsin]

Ugh. The primatologists showed that, not me lol. This is because the Chimps would seek out a lone chimp, outnumber him 8:1, hold him down and beat him to death. I think over 90% of the attackers walked away without any injuries.

[rjroy3]

Misread your previous statement. Thought you were referring to 1v1 mutual combat.

[ladsin]

No no, when human males are aggressors we die far more frequently than chimps do. This is because chimps take fewer risks. They are assured of themselves when they start a fight, and fights between tribes of chimps are almost never seen. If two parties of chimps run into each other they'll posture, beat their chests, holler, and eventually one party will leave. When chimps do their killing they form a small raiding party and isolate one or two chimps to kill and then return to their own territory.

In humans we frequently see rather large scale conflict between groups.

[EvanR]

Interesting topic! Didn't watch the video but I'd believe that it'd be our societal and technological complexity that makes us more violent. That or since apes, chimps and humans all evolved differently, we just may be the more violent branch and they were more peaceful. Doing a research proj. on chimps, should look at the Bili Forest Apes, very interesting.

[ladsin]

Actually our rates of violence in the civilized world are less than that of chimps. In hunter gatherer societies they are relatively equitable though, except that when we are attackers we are far more likely to die.

The video is only like 2 minutes long. I'd recommend it, it's pretty funny.

[jacquesvol]

We have 'better' tools for our violence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg0wzG56XJ4

Kills better than

0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/.../...32681fd7.jpg

[ladsin]

Yet our rates of violent death have been dropping off precipitously over the millennia.

[jacquesvol]

we count the dead by hundreds of thousands, even millions. Those numbers weren't that big 2000 or 3000 years ago.

[ladsin]

Sure, but as a percentage we've been dropping off. We no longer have to worry about 100 year + wars. We aren't as worried about war between giant nations. We no longer go to our neighboring village, massacre the men and women then take the children as slaves. We no longer (mostly) think that spousal abuse and rape is moral. We are moving away from beating children as a form of character building etc.

[jacquesvol]

That's what ISIS does

[jacquesvol]

And beating children isn't over yet. :(

[ladsin]

That's why I added the caveat of "mostly." I meant to add it to each, but figured it was implied.

That said even the Mid-East is becoming more docile. Some of those countries are stil 3-500 years regressed in their politics/ ideology, but it seems more and more that violence is phasing out of our society.

[Douma]

To Ladsin - People provoke more then ever and that since they became Atheists what is the same as Satanists.

[ladsin]

@Douma What?

[jacquesvol]

@Douma you're joking.

[englisc]

I think that we're most likely more like Chimpanzees. We've always been a warlike species. If there ever were Bonobo-like people they were most probably wiped out by the more violent tribes. In humans it seems that when we live in times of plenty we see less violence and we probably do become more like the bonobos with more peaceful conflict resolution, but even then when we look at history any society that has gone that way has again been conquered by more violent people.

[Kiran04]

Violence doesn't come from anywhere. This is the world. This is the way it works. Violence is a fact of life. And no, you can't eliminate violence. In fact, a human being incapable of violence would be less evolved than one capable. The one capable of violence is more likely to survive to reproduce than the pussy who can't throw a punch. And the only way to deter violence is to be capable of a terrifying level of violence yourself. It should scare people to attack you. Contrary to popular belief, violence does solve problems. To quote Michael Ironside, it is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.

[ladsin]

Violence doesn't come from anywhere? Can a rock inflict, or be the victim of violence?

[Kiran04]

If it falls off a very high ledge and lands on someone's head, then absolutely it can. The point is you make violence out to be some sort of human construct when it ain't. Violence is the way of the world. It is how living things survive, by preying on other living things.

[ladsin]

I specifically pointed out that it wasn't a human phenomena. You realize I mentioned two non-human animals right?
Violence, as far as I can tell, is the result of living/ thinking agents. I don't think a rock can inflict violence, or have violence inflicted upon it, but a lion most certainly can inflict violence.

[Douma]

violence comes from somewhere.

[Kiran04]

@Douma Yes, it comes from reality. The world is a violent dangerous place, and it was that way before we got here. To think that we are the cause of all violence is simple arrogance. As if we were that important.

[Douma]

Only Gods anger brings me at peace and nobody elses.

[BigJake]

Humans are just chimps with larger neocortices that allow us to plot more intricately, hunt more skillfully, and employ complex weapons that can kill billions in a afternoon.

[ladsin]

Yet we are just as related to bonobos

[BigJake]

We're more closely related to chimps. Unfortunately, we inherited the chimp penchant for social violence, though thousands of years of experience has created social memory of the futility of vendetta. I wish we were more like bonobos, because they basically have sex to quell all social problems. Perhaps we aren't the smartest primates after all...

[ladsin]

I think it's like 98.8 vs 98.75 or something like that. I suppose it's technically accurate. Bonobos don't have the problems of killing their own young like we do

[Deathraider]

This just reminded me of a video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TeOMYNuVeew

[ladsin]

Haha basically

[Fauzillic_Bolt]

There is an instinctal nature for people to like things that are showing bouts of dominance and one of the top ways to show that is via violence. Some sports glorify violence like boxing.

[ladsin]

Yeah, it's a method of demonstrating your strength without having to resort to lethal violence and is higher among men with codes of honor and the like.

[Fauzillic_Bolt]

I like sports like chess, tennis, baseball over boxing, MMA and wrestling but everybody is different.

[ladsin]

Yeah. I enjoy mma, I did it for a while and have been thinking about getting back into it. I was also on the debate team in high school. So I was kind of all over the place.

[1derfulguy]

Try googling something called "generous tit-for-tat"

[Anonymous]

sin thats why

and GODS word will come to pass

knowledge shall increase but the human race would get worse

and thats what we see

[Douma]

When do you people admit you are all actually satanists and not christians.

[Opinion Owner]

all liars shall have there place in the lake of fire

Job 37:18
hast thou with him spread out the sky which is strong and as a molten looking glass

you are without excuse the Firmament declares the Glory of GOD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAcp3BFBYw4

[fredrick89]

Great take

[ladsin]

Thanks, anything I could do better?

[fredrick89]

Let me read it first, so I can formulate what you could do better because I don't really speak English, but this comes to my mind just now you could examine how ideology can cause violence

[ladsin]

Cool, thanks

[DanFlingwing]

nice take

[ladsin]

Anything I can do better?

[Nice222]

Good take