I Don't Think Christianity (or religion in general) and Politics Should Mix, Here's Why:

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Hi, I'm 15 years old, so I have relatively no experience in life, as such, the following opinions can be subject to change, so if you read my entire myTake and disagree, feel free to debate with me, I'd love to talk some more.

I'd like to start off by saying that I believe we are entitled to all our own opinions, and that if you are religious, please don't take offense to this. If you live in America, you're almost sure to know the pledge of allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag and the united states of America, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

And you're almost sure to know the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In summery, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly among other things. Lately, I've been seeing more and more people on both sides (but particularly with the conservatives), who will use religion as a motivator for laws (an example of this is the use of the bible as reason why the heartbeat act in Texas is good).

For those of you who don't know what the heartbeat act is, it is an act/law passed in Texas that bans abortions after first signs of a heartbeat (this can be as early as two weeks into a pregnancy, long before most people know they are pregnant). The controversy with the heartbeat act spans through multiple issues, including the removal of bodily autonomy and the fact there are not exceptions for special cases.

I don't have a problem with you voting on something in a manner that aligns with your beliefs and morals, but when it comes to law-making, freedom of religion becomes important. If you were to use a bible verse as your evidence in trying to pass a bill, (and for the sake of this analogy the bill passes) that bill would be unconstitutional. Specifically because not everyone follows your religion and you are trying to create a law the enforces your religious opinion, which would force others to follow a law that follows a religion that is not theirs. Definitely not freedom of religion to me.

In summary, the act of creating bills with evidence that uses religion is unconstitutional and wrong, but you could try to pass something using morals as your base reason why. I am not against religion, I'm against religion that forced onto me.

[SenseiSeptred]

Religion is not a whole lot different than politics throughout the history of human civilization, and is interwoven at times to protect their citizens. I agree with the separation of church and state, but it is close to impossible to do.

[Some_Goof]

I agree. I personally think religion is something that's just yours and it shouldn't effect other people at all.

[BillyBalls]

Laws against murder and stealing are on the books? Don't they have religious overtones?

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

@BillyBalls I think laws like those have a moral purpose too, I think that, yes, you could say that certain religions would frown upon murder, but there is more moral issues with Murder than anything else

[224466881010]

There are religions out there where murder is ok and encouraged or even a righteous act.

Religions are sure to touch on many aspects of life because that's what religions purport themselves to be: instruction manuals for life.

The point however, is that you must separate these motifs. The point is that government should be basing it's legislation on something else.

That "something else" can be logic, moral philosophy, psychology, economics, etc... Just not religion. The first principles can't be religion.

[TangBang69]

The more religious they are , the higher they see themselves sitting on the horse in somehow thinking they are higher above sin and sinners to have but one perspective from which to view them, yep, looking down upon them.

The "Land of the free" has the largest population of incarcerated people in the world. What is facked about it is what says the Church to be just as , if not more Savage than the state. Silence is consent and only posers and fakes do not speak in witness and recognition of what is wrong committed or in progress.
The bulk of law today when examined is no more than corporate protection measures that compile a safety net for corporations. Considerably noticeable is how crimes like theft, burglary, battery, domestic abuse carry much lighter bail amount and consequence.

If neither State nor Church recognize the injustice of imprisonment and victimless crime being used in the same equation that equals over half that incarcerated population, then it is imperative that the people recognize the dangers of the road on which we are traveling. Sooner the better with only one option of hope to commandeer the vessel and change it's course, the longer it waits , more unachievable it becomes..

You know, back in America's childhood, we slaughtered not just some native Americans, but entire nations and no matter if you were Mexican, black or a European white settler, those who failed to swear allegiance to the US government were shot dead.

Another thing the people should recognize is how sick it is to take children absent of comprehension or understanding of the magnitude of their actions as they are instructed to stand and swear their allegiance to any damn thing.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Yes, the unfortunate ironies in America's history and in the current era undoubtedly make this country a worse place to live.

[PositiveNote]

Religion and politics is one and the same. Religion drives politics and politics drives... pretty much nothing! ?

Not really... It's been said that politics make the world go 'round, but does it? Or, does it make the world come to a screeching halt and tilt off its axis !!!

Every state has it's own authority to make it's laws! I believe in the state's autonomy, and if Texas makes a mistake, it will be taken to the Supreme Court. Sometimes we have to endure what people believe until it's what they say, "all said and done."

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

I see what you mean, because the constitution was shaped in a way that gave states a lot of power. But federally, within the bill of rights (something that has been adopted by every state), the first bill protects religious freedom, which means if your religion doesn't look down upon abortion, the Texas law is impeding upon your religion. This is only because this is a specific law that the federal government has control of (see bill of rights #1 and #10), therefore, it should have been seen as unconstitutional from the start and blocked. That's my opinion at least.

[PositiveNote]

Right! Here's the thing, however... what religion short of the pagan religions, allow abortion? I'm not saying that if they meet in "a church," they are a part of Christianity which goes by two bibles: the Old Testament (Hebraic) and the New. There is nothing in either that allows abortion. Hinduism doesn't allow the killing of animals, let alone, unborn children. So, "if your religion doesn't look down on abortion," is a false assumption, really. It's all about the individual's rights, and that's what in the US we are all about.

[jgibsonian1986]

There is a distinction between the American Judeo-Christian culture of our country and making laws based on religious heresay.
Religion shouldn't be part of government or politics because religion should be a m interpersonal thing for everyone.

But I wholeheartedly as a layman philosopher and apologetecist think that God as the authority over man should be included in government and politics. We already in founding our country based our ethics and values in biblical ones, its part of being American and what makes this like true: One nation, under God, indivisible. When our morality isn't internally derived there isn't room for human error in setting our ethics.

When we appeal to the authority above authorities as a country and people, we are indivisible.

[BillyBalls]

What does religion have to do with abortion.

They are many laws on the books that can be traced back to religious teachings.

[jennifer_bloom]

I would also say there is no bible verse that bans an abortion for a woman unable to care for her child or provide her kid with the necessities of life. My aunt said my mom should never have given birth to me because she treats me with such much hatred and neglect.

[TonyMetal___86]

The baby doesn't come to this life only from a mother, where'a the father to do his responsibility towards his wife and baby, providing for them with the necessities of life...

Abortion is a sin, don't make sex without marriage and if you do, take all precautions because a human's life is priceless and abortion means killing this life which is growing in a woman's womb...

[bamesjond0069]

You actually have it backwards. All issues are ultimately religious primarily and political secondarily. Just waking up in the morning either God or buddah or the sun or something put you here or nothing/mother earth/the universe put you here. And this shapes your morals and purpose which shapes your political ideas. Its nonsensical to think you could have a political stance absent of religion. And atheism is a religion as well BELIEF in no god or a worship of ones own self shapes your views just as much as belief in God.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

In that sense, yes, I would concede that religion plays a role in politics, but when it comes to the creation of laws, I think you need to confirm the your belief that something is immoral is shared across religions so not to force all other religious types to concede to your beliefs. I'm not sure if this will make any sense, but I hope it does.

[bamesjond0069]

What you say makes sense in the context of say a law that states everyone must own a Bible for example. But it makes no sense in the context of say abortion because my morals say what i think. Whether my morals coincide with a religion is irrelevant. If one cannot use their morals to guide their politics and law then what can one use?

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Yes, and your morals will differ from mine, but I think my problem with passing laws that have religious context is that for a country like America, where religious freedom is a large part of who we are, where's the religious freedom in creating a law that goes directly against so many other religions? I understand that there are a lot of laws that will anger one community or another, but it frustrates me when people in the same religion can't even agree.
As such, as many people before me have said, "if you don't like it, nobody's stopping you from not doing it", and I understand where that sentence could also be subjective and slightly problematic (e. g., when it comes to people on either extreme using it to suggest the opposing party "leave"), but I don't know a better way to word it.

[bamesjond0069]

So that logic would essentially make everything legal provided one is not forced into it... human sacrifice? "if you don't like it, nobody's stopping you from not doing it"

Obviously what you suggest, a pure libertarian society, is not quite right because people aren't going to just stand there as a family kills their 13 year old daughter for the sun god... whether she consents or not. So why do you expect people to just be ok with a mom killing her child for her own benefit and no consent of the child? This isn't a religious thing at all its just general morals.

[BookNerd666]

I agree, the government should not make laws based on the views of religion. The separation of church and state is essential that elected officials, given that they are a diverse nation that is full of different ideologies and religions, should not enforce one predominant religion upon the entire nation, no matter how much they believe it. Voters can of course make decisions based on religion though, religion is a basis of morality and nothing can be done to change that.

[Dela_99]

I am religious and i believe my religion should stay away from politics too because politicians end up abusing religions and using them as a tool! Its definitely personal and the state should stay away from that cause they harm religious minorities too.

[Moimaris]

How can there be a law without God. Humans can’t determine where the line crosses between good and bad, only God can. Humanism is a selfish act of human wanting to do whatever they want without having a law judging them and you can see it already with abortion. Humanism destroys babies life, there nothing human about that. We need God to tell us what is right and wrong otherwise we are lost

[Moimaris]

Also. There has to be a condemnation but if God can’t be the condemner by the laws I’d the Bible, people have to make a law to condemn. And I think humans can’t decide what is good or wrong because we don’t have a good moral compass expect when you accept God

[TonyMetal___86]

Wise words and sadly that's what's happening in our world today, if we just hear about the worldwide news and what's going on in our world, we remember what the bible have mentioned that just a few people will enter the kingdom of heaven and the future holds a lot of bad things, even the ones who had faith will lose it...

Look at our world today and you can see it everywhere...

Lust, hatred, revenge, greed, corruption, death, crimes... etc they are increasing in scary numbers!

We must always remember that no matter how much the darkness will grow and spread, in the end the light and goodness will conquer it!

[purplepoppy]

When people say there should be a separation between religion and politics what they really mean is other people's religions. They're happy for politicians to openly promote their Christian values but the second one promotes a muslim or Jewish one all shit hits the fan.

[Exterminatore]

Christian and Jewish values are the same.

[BillyBalls]

Are you okay that in Muslim countries, laws are based on the Quaran?

[purplepoppy]

Yes because that's what the majority of people in those countries want.

[BillyBalls]

So gays can be stoned?

Infidels can be killed?

We have words such as "Islamophobia" and "anti-semitism" . Why doesn't a word like "Christophobia" exist? It is a large problem in the U. S. A and other countries.

[purplepoppy]

I don't agree with stoning gays but it is their country not mine. And let's be honest many western Christians would line up to stone gays If they had the chance.

[BillyBalls]

Seriously?

[Djaay]

Politics is a man-made structure of control. Religion is a man- made structure the emulates and hides behind the Bible to further control people. GOD has NOTHING to do with politics or religion.

[BillyBalls]

Let's take the 10 commandments.

"Thou shall not kill!"

We have laws against murder. Are those law unconstitutional?

"Thou shall not steal!"

We have laws against stealing. Are those laws unconstitutional?

Abortion. So religious people are antiabortion. So are atheists.

If an atheist writes a law that bans abortion will it be constitutional?

Your logic is flawed.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

The two are not related.

Laws are decided by votes. (Or at least they should be)

The ten commandments weren't.

If people vote to ban stealing and that also happens to be part of your religion, that's awesome.

But if people vote to legalize gay marriage and your religion says that is wrong, that shouldn't effect anyone but you.

The Constitution doesn't say anything about abortion one way or the other. But, I think it does leave most of those sort of issues up to the states. It's not super explicit on that. Obviously slavery should be illegal everywhere, but a lot of people think abortion should be legal.

I think Texas should be allowed to ban it, but California should be allowed to spend tax money on it if they want to. People should vote. The votes should be counted, and whatever wins in each state should be the law in that state.

That's pretty much how the Constitution sets things up, but it's not super explicit as to what is a state issue and what is a federal one. Add the people who see having an abortion or banning abortion as a religious freedom and it gets complicated.

What the Constitution does say is that everyone is free to practice whatever religion the want, but they still have to follow the law. laws should be decided by votes, not by religious beliefs. You can vote for your religious beliefs, but nobody else has to and the most votes wins. And most things should be decided state to state.

Sadly, most of that doesn't happen at all anymore. The Federal government makes laws bases on how much big companies pay them to pass laws. The whole system is broken and the Constitution means almost nothing.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

Three counties have passed laws in the last year that make violating someone else's constitutional rights a crime even if it's done by the government.

I live in VA. They didn't let me speak or present evidence at my own trial which is explicitly against the Constitution but... There is literally nothing you can do if the government violates your conditional rights except sue them and go back to the same corrupt court to ask them to convict themselves.

Unless you like in one of three counties that have got so fed up with that crap they passed local laws saying it's illegal to violate the Constitution or the bill of rights and they will punish that as a criminal offense.

That should be the law everywhere, but if it was, the government would have to respect peoples rights and they don't want to do that.

[BillyBalls]

@Lost_in_the_Woods In whose morality should slavery not exist?

On whose morality should murder and stealing be outlawed?

The voters?

Okay.

The same logic applies to all laws.

Isn't murder considered immoral by all religions?

So aren't such laws influenced by religion?

As I stated. Many atheists believe abortion should be banned... not based on any religious believes.

Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution "Enumerates" the power of the federal government.

The 9th and especially the 10th Amendment state that what ever is not part of the enumeration clause of Article 1 Section are reserved to the individual and to the States.

So by definition of the Constitution it is up to each State to allow or ban such things as abortion or even define "marriage".

There is no Constitutional right to abortion listed in the U. S. Constitution.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

Sure. I agree.

Laws can be influenced by the voters beliefs. That is how it's supposed to work.

But your religion doesn't actually have an influence on what laws are made. Your vote does.

You're allowed to tell your church to vote for something, but you can't say your vote should count extra because of your religion.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

@billyballs, I should have clarified, I think that moral laws (e. g., murder, stealing, etc.) should be about morality, not religion, because most of those ideas are cross-religion idealogies.

[RealMarek]

All law is an expression of morality and will always be influenced by the beliefs of those in power. This does not make law an establishment of religion or, for that matter, of philosophy. “Establishment of religion” referred to directly funding a church (thus establishing a religion) with government money, not passing laws that might influence behavior in ways that some religions advocate.

[Deserter]

Religions uphold values and morals, politics is no different in this regard. That's why the whole brainwashing thing is pretty nefarious if you think about it. Children need to be taught something, they need rules and structure. When they're old enough they can decide for themselves. When people claim religions brainwash what they really mean is they don't agree with what the religion teaches. They want to brainwash children with their own teachings instead.

[BillyBalls]

Well said!!!

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

In this sense, would you agree then that all religions should be taught to some extent? Because, if, as you said, religion shapes/upholds values and morals, then the differences from religion to religion would allow for the children to come to their own conclusion about what morals are correct. Maybe this is me just rambling, but I'm really curious now...

[Deserter]

No, that's stupid. I said your values. A child needs guidance, not "Well maybe this is the answer, or maybe this one." It's very unhelpful.

[BrosephBrostar]

Have you considered what happens when there's a non-theistic/secular religion thrown into the mix?

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Not really, I've just started getting into these theological discussions, so I'm a bit ignorant to certain aspects of this debate. Could you please enlighten me to your opinion?

[BrosephBrostar]

Traditionally, when you think of a religion, there's always some kind of supernatural component to it, right? Gods, spirits, deities, etc, and that leads to common rallying cries like “Get God out of schools” or something like that that becomes emblematic of separation of church and state. Stuff like that is easy to point to. If someone is teaching “God did it” in public schools using public tax dollars, then it’s appropriate to tell them to cut it out because not everyone subject to those taxes, the entire population, doesn’t subscribe to those beliefs.

But things tend to get a bit fuzzier when religious components get harder to identify, such as in the case of secular religions. I’m not going to get specific, in part to avoid bias, and in part to encourage some critical thinking on identifying what that might look like, but I’m sure after thinking about it, you’ll start to recognize what I’m talking about. The telltale sign is typically a devotion to any kind of higher cause. Again, for Abrahamic religions, that’s really easy to identify, it would be God/Yahweh/Allah, but for the nontheistic religions it might be trickier to identify, but I do believe that everyone on some level subscribes themselves to some higher power. It’s part of the human condition.

And then, when you really get down to brass tacks, all religion really is is a souped up version of the human proclivity to form social groups, modified to apply to large swaths of a population instead of those in your immediate surroundings.

Anyway, those are my very condensed thoughts on the matter. I hope that was some food for thought.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

That's really interesting, thank you for taking the time to respond in full to my question, and I think I see what you mean, so, because everyone has something that they "subscribe themselves" to, as you put it, so that is kind of what affects their lives? I guess I never really thought about that, but after thinking about it, I would argue that due to it commonality between secular religions and what I assume is probably a set of similar morals is so close/agreeable that you don't even need to use religion as an excuse, thus avoiding talk about religion all together.

[BrosephBrostar]

No problem, there are topics that have always interested me. You're pretty close to the mark. Religions and morals have always gone hand in hand, for better or for worse, because that's exactly what religions are meant to do, bind people to a common meaning and purpose.

There's a book I find myself constantly pimping on this site, but I'm going to recommend another one as well. "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Religion and Politics" by Jonathan Haidt and "The Wrong Way Home" by Arthur Diekman. I'd recommend reading Wrong Way Home first, as Righteous Mind is more recent, has more interesting data and is generally better written, so reading Wrong Way Home second kinda left me unimpressed as an encore. Wrong Way Home covers cult mentality and how cults essentially warp the natural inclinations of humans to form social orders, and Righteous Mind does exactly what the subtitle implies. Among many other things, those two books helped formed the core of my thought process around this.

Now, you did say you were 15 and they both, Righteous Mind in particular, cover some... explicit details, but maturity does not necessarily correlate with age, and if you're expressing interest in these topics, I think you'll be able to handle it.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Thank you! I'll look into your suggestions, and I'll keep in mind that these books have some explicit content, as I said before, thanks for all these ideas, I hope you have a good day.

[Pumpkinspice009]

I believe they should, in western world it’s all about money not to say it’s the otherwise in other parts but, materialism is just at its peak in here, people are turning heads on god, because they don’t even have time to think about god, people can do whatever they want even if that’s not moral, I wish they bring back the religion into the society more than how it’s now.

[myabe123]

Buddhism is a great religious doctorine and should be used in western civilizations, completely agreed thanks pumkinspice009.

[KrakenAttackin]

Religion and politics are forever joined no matter what you may want. The Constitution of the US and our legal system is based on core Judeo Christian values.

Without religion the highest power in the land becomes GOVERNMENT, which is run by flawed, corrupt, and dangerous people.

With God overarching government It always gives the people a standard with which to hold government accountable.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

I'm assuming that your reference to "God" is the Christian god (this is due to your mentioning of Judeo Christianity and the capitalization of the G), would I be correct in saying that? And if so, what about other religions? The first amendment says freedom of religion, albeit most people were christians during the time of the drafting of the constitution (though, notably, Thomas Jefferson didn't really care), it doesn't specify christianity, meaning that our entire system is written under the ideas that everyone should be able to practice religion freely, not under religion, as it also mentions separation of church and state not long after.
It must be noted that even christians disagree amongst each other about what the standard is, which is why the christian church is split into so many denominations, so which version would be the standard? Not to mention that only 65% of the population is christian, leaving the other 35% to be forced to use "God" as their standard, so much for religious freedom.

[myabe123]

Although guns are constitutional I don’t know why conservatives get the idea that these align with there morality... Nuttiest thing I have ever heard.

[OnTheLevel]

You can't just go through life compartmentalizing your philosophies. Sure that simplifies stuff but one's deeply held beliefs transcend politics and religion and can't be simply separated.

[Djaay]

If you follow and DM me , I will answer this question. You don't want others to have drawn out controversy that confuses this Q\A.

[Friendlybro79]

Great observation for anyone and especially at 15.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Thank you, if you have anything you disagree with or would like to debate, I'm learning a lot from the comments section. :)

[Friendlybro79]

I do not disagree with anything you said. I think you really thought this out logically. Also good for you for being open to different ideas and perspectives. I'm very thankful and hopeful for a future with bright minds like you in it.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

Yes, sometimes the speed at which some of my peers reject certain beliefs scares me, but I still have some hope, because I've met other people who love to debate and actually listen to others points. I'm not perfect, but I strive to have more empathy and understanding.

[WhiplashMonkey]

No way you’re fifteen.

[JustYourTypicalAsian]

what makes you say that?