How often do you obey?

[OddBeMe]

We are biologically determined to conform to tribes. Evolution skewed toward animals who conformed to packs because their chances of living long enough to pass on their genes were exponentially higher. Thus, our ancestors were conformists.

The Asch Experiment has been studied and replicated over and over, and simplistically proves this as a trait in humans. Quite literally: we humans will go so far as to deny reality in order to conform to the group we identify with.

Asch is genius in its simplicity. A group of people are gathered and quizzed. The only questions revolve around matching the width of lines. Quite obvious are the answers, in fact.

They’d ask each person for the answer. But all except one were actors. And the actors intentionally gave the wrong answer. They’d say X is a match for A. All of them would say A.

Scarily, it only took two rounds for 3/4 of all subjects (the non actor) to conform to the group of actors. I.e., the one person who was not an actor would pretty quickly deny reality in order to conform.

Despite obvious reality that X matches C, they’d go with the group and say it matches A.

This study, along with the Milgram experiment, shows how vulnerable we are to being manipulated.

Milgram showed us how susceptible we are to taking orders despite the human cost. 65% of subjects reached 450 volts of shock, hearing the victim scream and plead the whole time. Again the victim was an actor, but played so well that subjects thought they were killing them. Yet most kept following orders…

So, how do you conform? Can you spot when you deny reality to fit into your supposed group?

I’m known as being quite liberal, and have found myself towing the Democratic Party line sometimes in order to fit in. When I realize this, I stop -reassess- then conform to reality by reading the research. Studying the experts. Learning what the consensus is. Because scientific consensus by experts in the field is how we have the internet, cell phones, TV…and vaccines.

Can you say the same about your cognitive dissonance? We all have it. But we must be able to identify when it pops up and quell those evolutionary desires.

[mstbooblover]

That's why a group of humans nearly always seem hopelessly stupid ; a bunch of cowards that will attack in group against anyone thinking or wanting to act and think differently. Most humans are afraid to take their own decisions according their own real values. Now, in small groups, as is the case for a family, this group behaviour is rather helpful for the members, but it becomes a real catastrophe when packs of humans accept to follow the orders of a leader... Just remember the two world wars, islamism, terrorism, genocides, inquisition (s), witch hunts, hooliganism, etc...

And that's why I tend to avoid crowds of any kind. No offense meant to anyone, but still hoping that most people will try and get to think about their responsibility and behaviour in general.

[OddBeMe]

I think you get mho just for hooliganism :)

[Kaneki05]

That study seems odd to me though cause you could equally find someone put in that same test who would just called them out for been dumb and the clear answer C, then you could find someone equally who just wants to be different so they would say C or B just to look unique.

Both of these factors are highly seen among people too, been a smartass or someone who just wants to be different. So that test on one person don't really give an accurate result on what people would do. Then the other is a fear of dying so that's not really fair since it's quite obvious what impact that has.

Anyway I am the smartass one lol.

[OddBeMe]

True, but it’s the pressure to fit in that’s worrying. There’s lots of 70s footage on Asch experiment. And it takes several rounds of most subjects saying “no that’s not correct.” But as the study continues they quickly and horrifyingly start participating in literal fake news.

[OddBeMe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYIh4MkcfJA

[CarolineW]

I studied art at university and I am a professional artist now. The last thing I want to be is in a cosy group that "approves" of me. Sounds like hell on earth. "Rebel against everything" - that's my mantra

[exitseven]

@CarolineW Yes, Rebel against everything

[OddBeMe]

@exitseven except against cops?

[TrueConfection]

The Wave is a good one to watch too. It's amazing how fast that happened.

[Lliam]

I've always been as curious as a cat and tended to do what I wanted to do, although I also weighed consequences.

In my teens I became rebellious and realized that you can't just "trust" authority. I realized that politicians lie all the time. I realized that mainstream media's job is to manufacture consensus and manipulate the public. I learned that from personal experience and from observation. So I question everything and try to be objective. I make my own decisions and form opinions, not based on consensus, but on the facts I have on hand. I can modify or change my opinions as more information becomes available.

I remember a college professor posing a question. He set up a scenario: If you were on a straight, flat desert highway where you could see for miles in every direction and came to a stop sign, would you stop? He even gave a 100% guarantee that there was no traffic, no police, and no danger. Almost everyone in the class said they would stop. I said that, given the guarantee of safety, I would blow through that sign at 100 mph.

So I may have been an outlier in the Asch experiment. Although I have to admit that I've been fooled before. And there have been times when I was temporarily influenced by consensus. But, over the years, I have become much more wary of manipulation.

I don't mind going against the grain. "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)." ~ Mark Twain

I've broken countess rules in my life. Some of my most fun experiences happened when I broke rules. I base my decisions on observation and common sense.

I like to think that I would have refused the orders in the Milgram experiment. I have morals and ethics and am averse to taking orders. I would have been terrible in the military. I even resent the shit out of cops who shout "commands". Fuck them! I respond to reason, not intimidation.

[Avicenna]

I think it's more likely that being able to cooperate rather than to conform was evolutionary advantageous. Someone had to be dictating conformity, and it wasn't in the interest of the group- rather it would have been in the dictator's interest.

It would be hard not to let political bias seep into such an experiment, but wouldn't it be interesting to test for political conformity?

[OddBeMe]

Yeah. Which side conforms more? (Loud coughing…)

[Avicenna]

Ideologically? Leftists definitely do (due to the generally totalitarian nature of leftism). But there’s also more mental illness on the Left.

[OddBeMe]

Weird how I think the exact same…just about right wingers. I feel you guys are religiously motivated to find an idol to worship and follow their direction no matter the cost.

[Avicenna]

In my experience, you leftists are usually very prone to thinking in caricatures, like you just did.

[Avicenna]

I think it’s primarily because you don’t understand that it’s about principles, not the person.

[OddBeMe]

Funny, how many times have you called me a Marxist or whatever?

Your key phrase is “in my experience.”

[goaded]

I realise this is very late, but you might like to see Professor Stephen Reicher's take on the Milgram experiment. One thing he points out is that if the encouragement to continue reached the point of telling the subject they have no choice, they must continue, every one of them stopped. IOW you can convince people to do horrible things, but orders don't work.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/RFOI6FJQBXY

[Snakeyes7]

I thought the Milgram experiment was interesting. How many people can think for themselves and those who can't when being told to perform an action that is clearly immoral. It also shows that the law isn't always a moral compass, although I think how the Nazis operated had enough evidence of that.

[OddBeMe]

Ironically, it shows how we accept authority. And yet some people overcompensate and refuse all expert advice…ie, vaxxes.

[Snakeyes7]

Right, I am saying that some people are willing to disobey orders if they feel that the order is immoral and some fear the consequences too much to disobey no matter how immoral the order is.

[OddBeMe]

Yes. And I do like that our military allows that.

[GoPhuckYaself]

No never. I'm a loner. I do what I want. Fuck the rules. And fuck everyone else. I live in my own world motherfuckers. And guess what. It's a lot better than your world. Cos I live in a world of freedom to do what I want. Wahahhahahahahaha

[OddBeMe]

you're probably a gofer for some corporate scumbag.

[LightOfTruth]

most are pack animals but alpha’s do what they do and others follow. I don’t like most people and stick to myself. At work people follow that strength of not needing them. The way I see it is I do me and they end up following.

[OddBeMe]

Can alphas be betas too? Maybe with the wife?

[exitseven]

I remember Milgram from college years ago. It is pretty amazing I thought. I do not obey if I think it is wrong. I am usually at odds with the herd.

[Seangreen]

I rarely obey unless I absolutely have to especially if it's not something that I find to be a moral issue because I believe in objective morality

[Brendan24]

I usually go against the norm if there's something I'd rather do which in todays day n age a good amount

[OddBeMe]

It’s not about going against the “norm” it’s about not thinking about it because of your tribe, ie, Trumptards.

[Brendan24]

@OddBeMe What

[OddBeMe]

Not saying you’re a trumptard. But my point is not necessarily being anti norm, but anti groupthink.

[Staximus]

I had to repeat preschool because the teacher said I was not ready or willing to obey directions. I'm a lot worse now about that than I was then.

[OddBeMe]

Funny how they drill that into you.

[Staximus]

Yeah it didn't work haha

[Gal67]

This is basically about peer pressure, something that, as a loner, I'm immune to. I will always do what is right, that's just the way I am.

[OddBeMe]

I’d say as a fellow loner, we have more “immunity” to it, but no one is immune. It’s about being able to realize when you’re in a situation where a crowd could influence you.

[DanielBlack1904120]

never. I've been doing exactly what I want since like age 11

[msc545]

The first example has more to do with social pressure than anything else. That said, cognitive dissonance is largely unconscious and very powerful.

[OddBeMe]

Ehh, that’s how religions outlast

[msc545]

exactly. Have you read the book "When prophecy fails"

[OddBeMe]

I haven’t I’ll look that up. There is a great website that tracks how many prophesies have been wrong. No one thinks about those…

[najekim]

I'll obey when it suits me. Otherwise facts and common sense lead the way.

[anylolone]

As often as the orders are right.
That's why I didn't took a single vax this year.

[OddBeMe]

so the stats showing 40x less likely to get covid is what... fake news?

[anylolone]

Considering they don't compare like to like, yes.
Hard to be considered with covid when you aren't tested unless you have symptoms when everyone else is required testing for just getting into the hospitals for any other reason.

[OddBeMe]

Like to like…so doctors filling out death certificates are faking it? Giant conspiracy?

[anylolone]

Read what I wrote again, slowly.

And then read the policy on how to classify the presence of a contagion in a death certificate before, and how the policy is now with covid.

[OddBeMe]

The lack of Covid tests for death certificates likely mean it’s undercounted.

[anylolone]

Lack? What lack?

[OddBeMe]

lack of covid tests. haven't kept up with the news?

[anylolone]

What lack, any links?

[Deserter]

Depends how severe the consequences are if I don't. Regardless the fact that I think for myself is one of my favorite things about me

[Kyle-Jackson78]

i only obey my boyfriend,

[OddBeMe]

Bdsm thing?

[Kyle-Jackson78]

i obey him in the relationship and in the 😏

[Kyle-Jackson78]

bed room

[OddBeMe]

Why obey him? Just curious

[Kyle-Jackson78]

i dunno its just who i am its hard to explain

[OddBeMe]

Both sides in a relationship do things for the other. But it sounds scary the way you describe it.

[Kyle-Jackson78]

i do do things for him, He just takes charge more, I would beat someone that hurt him lol,

[annabananna]

I can be both depending on what it is.

[Sevenpointfive]

i don't conform