If Pro Choice People Are Feeling Unheard Right Now, Here’s 10 Changes To The Argument To Be Understood In A Time When Abortion Is Under Attack

[JessicaEarl]

We all want to be understood

1. Stop calling it a women’s issue. Everyone with two eyes and a brain knows that there’s plenty of women that don’t support it. It just makes you seem out of touch. Just like some men support it and some don’t, some women do and some don’t. The mislabel doesn’t help and makes it seem like you don’t even bother looking at any real data.

2. Accept the past of planned parenthood and its mistakes. The racist beginnings and issues with refusing to show ultrasounds makes things look like they aren’t transparent…which they aren’t. This needs to be owned and moved away from. Surely we can’t cancel Chris Harrison for a picture of someone else that someone else took years ago, and still be fine with planned parenthood. There needs to be an acknowledgment. Any prolifer knows this and it shows hypocrisy on the pro choice end if it’s just ignored.

3. The argument needs to move away from “you just want to control women’s bodies”. Casting bad intentions on someone and putting words in their mouth is a horrible and immature social skill and a great way to end marriages. Come on people, we’re better that. How can we be seeing someone say “this is a living person and I don’t want them to die” and label them as evil, even if we don’t agree with the premise. We need to all call down. We need to acknowledge that the prolife stance often comes from a place of very good intentions and stop intentionally blinding ourselves to that. If conservatives feel heard, they’ll be more willing to listen.

4. We need to stop cutting men out of the conversation. Many doctors are men, and they have a say even though they can’t have babies. Men are completely involved. Half of the fetuses are male. Taking peoples voices away is un American. Or at least against what America should be.

5. We need to accept that we’re grateful that we were never aborted. We need to accept that it’s bad to be aborted. This whole display of “look how much this doesn’t bother me” just looks like “look how little compassion I have”. Shout your abortion is gross and everyone knows it. You’re losing your own argument here. You’re showing your own lack of morals. You make us look stupid. We are not stupid.

6. We need to address and push back against the extremes of the pro choice argument. There are actual democrats stating that if a baby survives an abortion, we should kill them. These people should be in jail and they stain the whole movement with their darkness.

7. anyone who claims to be pro choice needs to look up how early a fetus can feel pain, and then watch an abortion. There needs to be real understanding before a stance is taken. Undergoing any operation requires that the patient be completely informed before they undergo surgery, and this should be the same. The fact that someone is trying to hide something from us girls should set off some alarms. We need to completely understand what it is we’re fighting for before we start fighting. We need to be in control of what we are doing.

8. We need to stop using the argument of “so many women will die if abortion is illegal because they’ll go get illegal ones!” Unfortunately (or fortunately), conservatives are smarter than that. They can see that people saying that don’t care about those women because if they did, they’d be telling people not to have illegal abortions. No one is saying that. No one. It smells like democrats want the women to die to show that they were right. We need to tell women to stay far away from illegal abortions. We need to care about our citizens more than that.

9. We need to stop bringing up rape and incest as if the pro choice person hasn’t ever thought of that. Some of them are against it in those cases, but many are not. Most see those as exceptions and we look stupid when we say that. We are not stupid. We shouldn’t look like it. The issue being discussed is in the majority of women who were irresponsible. We need to teach people how to avoid abortions in the first place. This is real. Sex comes with consequences. Consequences do not equal punishments, they equal outcomes. There are ways to prevent. While the sexual Revolution has brought many good things, pretending that pregnancy is a virus that we catch randomly makes us look stupid. We are not stupid. If we’re so concerned about giving these people autonomy, we need to teach them how to keep it. Abortion is about taking autonomy back after losing it. We need to teach how not to lose it at all. Contraception people. Come on.

10. We need to stop telling people “how dare you say adopt! I don’t see you adopting anyone!” That’s because this person is under control of their family planning. It’s the person getting an abortion that was irresponsible (expect for rape, danger to mother and incest) not the pro life person. It’s not on the pro life person to clean up the pro choice mess.

This topic sends people into rage so quickly, and if we want to gain any ground on either side, we need to start by listening. Leave the immature arguments behind. Our leaders are bad leaders in America. They’re bad. We shouldn’t learn how to debate and discuss from them. We know what maturity looks like and we need to display it. I really hope we can bring down the rhetoric to a productive level and bring America back together. I hope you want the same thing

[Anonymous]

I was raped when I was 14. I'm glad I didn't kill my baby. No matter how bad my suffering was going through that and giving birth my daughter didn't deserve death.

[Exterminatore]

That was the right decision and you have my respect and admiration for making the choice you made. Someone else’s crimes don’t mean the child should die. The child is innocent. To say: “I was raped, so it’s ok to kill the child within me” is frankly evil.

I’m sorry you had that happen to you but I commend you for your decision and you’re shining character in making that choice. Well done, and God bless.

[Unknown29]

@Exterminatore Right! Aborting the baby would have turned a bad situation into a worse one.

[Exterminatore]

@unknown

Absolutely. I’m amazed this woman had the wisdom to see that and she is to be commended. So many from either sex can’t and want to call rape a legit reason for abortion.

The fact is that baby doesn’t deserve death for this misdeeds of someone else, and it can be put up for adoption if the mother can’t handle the responsibilities. Abortion is murder.

Perhaps the only legit reason for abortion may be that the mother will die in child birth, as I don’t think you can mandate someone give their life for someone else.

[Exterminatore]

I think the question to be asked is: when is it ok to murder your unborn child, and the answer is pretty much never.

[loveslongnails]

@Exterminatore Except when it's
* a) not a child just because you say it is (do you know when soul attaches? No, so shut the fuck up if no one does and
* b) when it's going to kill the mother by the very fact of where it's implanted,
* c) because some one raped you and your THEOLOGY doesn't give a shit about that,
* d) because the embryo develops a condition where it will be born without a chance for more than a few hours or days, i. e Tay Sachs Disease
* e) because your theological viewpoint has no business telling a woman that a mass of cells the size of a kidney bean has more rights over her body than she does.

[Dargil]

A hard decision and the right one.

[liburnia]

Very brave of you. Bravo!

[Bricealan]

@Exterminatore Pretty much okay to terminate a pregnancy any time up until her water breaks. Too many people on this planet anyway.

[Bricealan]

@loveslongnails 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[Aiko_E_Lara]

That's just your choice but you still can't speak for other women however

[loveslongnails]

And aren't you glad you had the RIGHT to decide what to do? Sure you are, but you don't want to extend that right to some other woman that doesn't want the child of a rapist.

[DevikaButts95]

1. It is, mostly, a women's issue. Whether all women support it doesn't make it not a women's issue.
3. Sorta right, we shouldn't drop the argument that it's about controlling our bodies, because it very much is taking away a freedom. If you're forced to have a baby, you are in fact controlled into doing it. It doesn't need to be said in the manner you said it though where's it's very presumptive. Likewise, while there is an argument there are good intentions, in reality pro-lifers make very bad actions, whether uninformed or otherwise. You will go a lot farther if you approach the argument with better intentions, but what a pro-lifer argues for is ultimately bad, and you can't give much leeway there. 4. I mean the idea that men can't contribute to the conversation is wrong, but, you have a lot of pro-life men who have the least clue about what they're talking about.
6. Yes I guess but I've never seen that even brought up in any discussion about pro-choice/pro-life. It's really not the focal point. I also don't know of individuals with that actual opinion in the first place.
8. No that's just facts. You're only locking away safe abortion methods from a woman if you make it illegal. If a woman wants to have an abortion, doesn't matter if people tell her not to have an illegal abortion, she's going to get one. It's also a difficult situation to speak on, because a woman doesn't want or can't handle having a child, it's difficult to say whether that woman should get an illegal abortion or keep the child as both can easily be extremely inhumane. If abortions weren't legal, I would be forced to get an illegal abortion, and there's 0 swaying there. What you say for this one is completely insane, I would not say conservatives are smart if they hold this opinion, it's just lacking in logic all around. A complete non-argument.
9. No, as you pointed out, some people don't think abortion is okay even in rape scenarios. Not only that, but its one of many fair reasons to get an abortion.
10. Pro-lifers declare to be considerate of the child's life, but these types of arguments come from a place of "they really aren't and don't care" because they do not consider these issues. They don't care about the child's life at all, they just don't want to see them "killed", even though they're not yet alive. It's actually incredibly cruel, pretty downright preferring the child is daresay tortured thoughout life as opposed to aborted before they're actually born. This is why you can't just look away as pro-lifers intentions being good... doesn't matter how good your intentions are when what you do is undeniably evil.

[JessicaEarl]

Hi! I like you in our interactions generally and I’m glad to hear from you. If you look at the purpose of the “take”, it’s not to argue against abortion. It’s how a medical professional (myself) can help pro choice people to be more effective in the messaging. We have to deal with all kinds of unreasonable people, including addressing people who don’t want to vaccinate their kids. There are effective approaches.

What is not effective is calling someone’s argument “insane” (which you did) because insanity is a legal status that states someone’s mental health makes them unable to be held responsible for their criminal actions. So it is, in short, name calling.

Also labeling another opinion as evil (which you did) only shows that you make little effort to understand the person with whom you are engaging, and that person will pick up on it immediately (which I did). it just means you’re not emotionally prepared to enter discourse on a topic because you aren’t ready to see the topic from a realistic point of view outside of your own.

I also noticed you skipped certain numbers up there and would like to ask why, and invite you to respond to them. Steering an argument away from your sensitive areas shows you’re aware that there are weaknesses, and one should either be confident in defending the weaknesses or be willing to call out their own weaknesses and demand change.

As for your statement that they aren’t alive, as a medical professional, I can tell you that the scientific consensus is that fetuses alive. That’s not where the debate is. The debate is in whether they are considered people. Below I will offer quotes and studies to show this consensus.

[JessicaEarl]

"The conceptus is a living being, a new individual of the species Homo sapiens, at a very early stage of development. It is not a mere collection of human cells, but an actual living being that undergoes a process of development, a continuum of growth from conception to adulthood."

This quote comes from Gilbert's book "Developmental Biology," which is a widely used textbook in the field. Gilbert is a respected authority on the subject of developmental biology and has written extensively on the topic of fetal life and development.

[JessicaEarl]

Here are some studies that discuss the fetal development :
1. "Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" by Susan J. Lee and John C. Bockmann, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 2005. This review of scientific literature concludes that there is evidence that fetuses can experience pain by the second trimester, which supports the argument that they are alive.
2. "Fetal Brain Activity in Response to a Visual Stimulus" by Victor K. Han, Nancy J. Miller, and Paul M. Davis, published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1982. This study used electroencephalography (EEG) to demonstrate that fetuses respond to visual stimulation, indicating that they are capable of processing information and have an active nervous system.
3. "Fetal Development and Viability" by A. William Rutherford, published in the Journal of Obstetric, Gynecologic, and Neonatal Nursing in 2008. This article provides an overview of fetal development and viability, emphasizing the fact that fetuses are living beings with their own unique biology and physiology.
4. "The Human Fetus: A Distinct, Self-Organizing, and Emergent System" by Maureen L. Condic, published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences in 2017. This article argues that fetuses are distinct and autonomous entities with their own self-organizing systems, and thus are alive.

Although if you prefer something less scholarly, simply ask chat GtP if a fetus is alive and let the program do the talking for you.

[sheena30]

I like your comment

[strateguy632]

to jes, @JessicaEarl
and @DevikaButts95 content effective", in addition to your "ten commands " for effective marketing, consider the TWO concessions a, "ma danger" and b, "clump cells" using these after the stage of clump or when not in danger is simply not supported by those ideas.
if a clinic said, keep us open for life ma danger that idea only "supported" when ma danger and conceded most when not and not every unwanted pregnany that "you" wanna get paid for cough. similarly clump only can support while clump, but conceded after it has 3 layers. clump is a concession that after clump can't and not danger can't... so if u wanna make money killing fetus those "debate winners" are truly concessions to close most clinics in each state since only a few are possible, so instead of making your money killing human fetus, get a good job "first do no harm." none.

[Anonymous]

I agree with a lot of what you say, maybe disagree slightly on some things but I do think both sides need to get better at hearing each other on the concerns.

1. I agree it's not just a woman's issue it's also an issue about human life and whether we think that begins at conception or some point later in the pregnancy, or some religions think it's at birth. The reason I think it's perceived as a women's issue is that only biological women can get pregnant so the idea that women might not get to choose whether to be pregnant or not is disturbing to those in pro-choice circles.

2. Yes, Planned Parenthood has made many mistakes and so have other public health organizations. NIH purposely withheld syphilis treatment for African American men without their knowledge to do research. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6258045/ Thousands of Native American women were sterilized without their consent by IHS. https://daily.jstor.org/the-little-known-history-of-the-forced-sterilization-of-native-american-women/ Not to say that this excuses Planned Parenthood, just saying that even organizations with a horrific history can still provide reputable services now.

3. I agree I don't think it's about controlling women's bodies among most of the prolifers. Sure there may be a few people that don't care either way and like to use the whole "keep your legs closed argument" but I don't think that's the majority. I do think most prolifers have a belief that life begins at conception, as well as the right to life.

4. I agree men should be part of the conversation, especially since they are the ones to be getting women pregnant. They have just as much personal investment in whether or not to have the child. They need to be just as much part of this conversation as the women.

5. Yes, I know I am glad that I wasn't aborted. I may not like abortion but I accept that it's going to happen and I do try to have compassion for the reasons but I don't think anyone should take it lightly or feel completely heartless. Other reasons could have caused us to not be here, though they would not be intentional on the part of the pregnant woman. I am grateful though that not only was I not aborted but that my mother didn't have a miscarriage. I am also glad that my mom met my dad and that they had sex in the exact moment that they did for the sperm to fertilize the correct egg, and that the fertilized egg implanted in my mother's uterus. Again not to say that abortion isn't a horrible way to not exist because it's intentional but other random occurrences could have led to us not being born.

6. Yes total agreement there, once that baby is born it would be infanticide to kill it, even elective abortion past viability without a medical reason or lethal fetal anomaly I think should be considered infanticide.

7. Yes I agree, I think there needs to be a consensus among medical professionals, medical ethics, and scientists on the restrictions. I don't think legislators should dictate restrictions though.

8. I think everyone is talking about something different when they say this. I always think they are talking about the days when there were coat-hanger abortions and back-alley abortions. However, now that I've listened to the different arguments I understand that it's more complicated than that, let me explain. In the states that have the most strict bans, one study found a 7 percent increase in maternal mortality. https://sph.tulane.edu/news/study-finds-higher-maternal-mortality-rates-states-more-abortion-restrictions Now is that a good reason for abortion, no but it's a good reason to improve maternal health services especially of more women are going to be pregnant and yet it seems that we don't always hear those conversations taking place, sometimes but not always.

There are also situations in states where doctors are afraid to do medically indicated abortions after a woman's water breaks known as previable prematrue rupture of membranes. If there is heart beat some doctors won't do it and there are stories of women who have almost died as a result. It seems in these situations women might have died because of a lack of clarity in the law.

I don't think I could say for sure whether not having access to abortion will lead to more unsafe illegal abortions but it will likely lead to more self managed abortions. According to the world health organization unsafe abortions are one of th leading causes of maternal mortality world wide. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709326/ I realize this is world wide and mostly in developing countries. In the U. S. homicice is actually the leading cause of death https://www.bmj.com/content/379/bmj.o2499 so that fact along with the high materal mortaltiy rate in states with more strict bans means we have some work to do to no only prevent the deaths of the unborn but of also pregnant women who are carrying them.

9. So I think the reason people bring up rape is partly for the lack of rape or incest exceptions that exist in many of the abortions bans. Also there are many prolife activists that don't believe rape or incest should be an exception. LiveAction, Students of Life, they see abortion as another act of violence that doens't take away the first act of violence. They also believe that life begins at conception and the righ to life begins at conception as well. More and more of the prolife organzations are getting behind not having rape or incest exceptions. So I think what's disturbing to people is that the women who didn't have any say in creating that life would have to be pregnant and give birth regardless. Even more disturbing when it's a child who's pregnant.

That being said you are right consensual sex comes with consequences, however even couples using birth control should be discussing those consequences as even the most effective birth control methods have been known to fail.

10. I know people who have been adopted, I might even know a person who gave a child up for adoption but it was done in secret when she was very young. I mostly agree but there was an interview with a a women who talked about how adopted parents get commended for adopting but the birth mother often feels the need to keep it a secret, nobody commends her for giving a child a better home than what she can provide. I wish I could find the interview. That's not to say that adoption isn't a good thing but it does have it's challenges.

I hope my arguments added positively to the debate and didn't offend you or anyone. Sometimes disagreeing can come across as attack but it's not an attack just offering another view point. I think of myself as morally prolife but legally prochoice. I work in healthcare as well so i know that abortions bans won't stop abortions from happening, I would love to work with people of all views to figure out a realistic way to reduce the number of abortions. Whether that's through education, easier access to contraception, better services for families and children. It a discussion we will all be having for decades to come as it is now in the hands of the people and their representatives.

[anon1903]

1. But it is a woman's issue. Imagine you went out shopping with your friends and try a cute outfit. It doesn't fit properly, and every customer starts complaining. That doesn't happen... Why? Because it was your own damn issue!

3. But they do control woman's body. Period. Men can have opinions of course, but the ultimate say is of the mother. Whether she was raped, a careless teen or a slut. She's making the baby, she's going through the traumatic experience of bearing one, it's ultimate her decision. There, I added something new. You're welcome, sweetheart.

4. Men can have their set of opinions. But they can't force their decisions on women. You don't like abortion? Great, don't have casual sex. And a man is more willing to have that, so no they can't have "casual sex" and call "abortion bad". That's called having your cake and eating it too.

I respect men who are conservative and virgin having negative opinions on abortion, because in their case it makes sense.

5. I'm not grateful. I'm not thankful for this life. My parents treat me like insurance, assets, maid etc. And because you disagree with my sufferings doesn't make me feel stupid. Sorry.

6. More human beings, less resources. From that POV, even the extreme pro choice are right.

7. I don't care, honey

8. I don't know about you but many kids do this. If they don't have something, they steal. It's the human nature. If you don't get something on asking, you try other ways. Period.

9. It shouldn't be even an argument whether a raped woman should get abortion or not. Why would you have a rapist's baby?

10. Yes, because if you're so much pro birth, you should start adopting kids. It's easy to point fingers than to offer a hand.

Your take is mostly stupid.

[The_Shadow_Dweller]

Can you summarize the take for me, please? I don't want to read it as it is too long.

[anon1903]

Am antifeminist take on abortion

[JessicaEarl]

It’s actually not an op pinion on abortion at all, it’s about helping people strengthen their arguments for it. I’m going to write one for the pro life thing too. Everyone hears arguments from their own echo chambers and since they don’t interact with people that feel differently than them, they never get to see where those weaknesses are. It’s just about america finding ways to become more understanding of the opposition so we can stop hating each other so much.

You’ve commented on every point but number 2, and I’d like to invite you to do so

[anon1903]

Number 2 makes sense

[anon1903]

Your take is dumb.

[Bricealan]

Thanks for going against what seems to be the flow of conversation on this topic. I wish I could limit my reply to you only, rather than getting a lot of 'gaff' from those that want to be politically correct and say they are 'pro-life". I have no idea of where some of these responses come from, nor where the 'Asker' gets her information? When I read of a 14 year old saying she was raped, and keeping the baby was the "right choice' I have to stop reading and move on, and then others stepped in and agree with a child giving birth to a child.
Well, when I get, if I get a lot of B. S from those supposedly 'pro-life' people, I will just ignore them and "move on" Thanks for standing up.

[anon1903]

@Bricealan appreciate your support.

[loveslongnails]

" It’s actually not an op pinion on abortion at all, it’s about helping people strengthen their arguments for it." Wrong. Not at all true.

All your footnotes and links support the idea that life begins at fertilization. That's clearly a "not your choice anymore once that happens" position. You've laid out a blueprint to reject any viewpoint other than that one, based on biological evidence supported by "x" number of scientists or doctors.

[Bricealan]

@anon1903 Yes, and an uninformed one at that!

[loveslongnails]

There's one major point being overlooked and that's this:

If MEN got pregnant, abortion would be legal everywhere or damn close to everywhere!! No one would be telling MEN what to do with their bodies! You can bet on that.

[queenimpala]

Jessica, I'm definitely confused about your argument. Are you pro-women's choice or anti? Rather, pro women's medicine/health supporter or anti? There are such a myriad of medical conditions and circumstances that involve women's maternal health, that's it's really not on a black and white spectrum.

Also, #10 is kind of insensitive, no offense. You're kind of blaming the woman basically for existing/shaming by saying it's all her fault for getting an abortion or having sex. Sometimes, people are also pressured into sex. No one wants to get an abortion, babe. It's a devastating choice. My mom had to get one because the baby before me was formed outside the uterus and then died. I'd also like to add, pregnancy can happen in any situation. It can happen through many layers of birth control, marriages, IUD's, and responsible planning and medicine. You're saying it's not the man's fault at all?

Sorry, I'm just confused on your stance. Thank you for posting your opinion on this, though, I appreciate your viewpoints.

[queenimpala]

I would like to add, the women in my family have an issue with our uteruses that causes damage. That means I can never have a relationship with a man? I would never want to get an abortion, but in the case my healthcare is compromised, I would certainly be scared. Thanks again!

[D_Bone_Steak]

I'm pro-choice and I'm pretty much firmly with the right now. What you're pointing out and I'm pretty sure a lot of the responses you'll get to it is pretty much why, I, a liberal by definition... am going to vote for the right down the line. Just like the last 6 years or so now.

That Overton window shifted too far left for the types of retards that are stuck on cable news channels AKA mainstream news. The arguments are ridiculous and they look nutts. I remember who was screaming about wearing your masks and get these shots for no real fucking reason other than Saint Anthony Fouchi said so. They've gone too far authoritarian for my libertarian mind to even listen to anymore.

I just wished the crazy bullshit would become more moderate again. A bunch of fat bitches screaming in the street about their rights to abort and trans their kids just gives me a feeling of disgust. So yeah... pro-choice on one level... but I'll be the opposite of whatever that crazy shit is even if I do fundamentally agree.

Leaving the left, disgruntled leftist, or whatever... they'll be retards and just call me stupid. Watch. They do eat their own after all. Known fact.

[D_Bone_Steak]

My body my choice went down the toilet when they pushed those fucking shots.

[Exterminatore]

@d_bone

Damn right!

[Bricealan]

I never GOT 'those fucking shots"? Still, I got COVID (a very light case) and went on with "My body, my choice" Easy enough for me?

[D_Bone_Steak]

@Bricealan Several of my friends got COVID and it was nothing for them. My wife got the shots (military and basically had to because of that shot madness) and she was sicker than them just from the shots. One of my friends was making solo drum videos while he was quarantined by force... funny as fuck and didn't look sick at all.

[motownplayer2000]

I mean it’s not about gaining ground. It’s the simple fact that in a “free” society and I mean that loosely because nothing is truly free in this society whatsoever, it’s the illusion of freedom. People thing that they have the power to choose for others. They can choose for the mother whats best for her, the father, the unborn baby. People in this western society are just obsessed with control. And since they can’t control their own lives and situation they have to feel like they can control yours. I’m not about that. I don’t believe a baby of mine that I helped create should be aborted unless there are complications to baby and/or mother. However, it’s not my place to tell a young mother or couple what they should do in there situation. We talk about “don’t tread on me” the old conservative concept for a lot of things that pertain to this, however, they don’t have that mindset when it comes to others they have to bud in everyone else’s life. Here is the real and actual way to solve this issue… stay out other people’s mothaf*+kin business and worry about yourself and how to take care of your family. I don’t care what your argument is about you speaking up for the baby or whatever it is.. I don’t want babies dying either but you aren’t God, you aren’t the ethical voice of society and if no one asked you for your opinion, you keep that too yourself. This is how society should live and we would all be much better off.

[motownplayer2000]

Not to mention, y’all mad about abortion but your kids will probably not make it pass 4th grade because they will be mowed down by a mass shooter which is bound to happen more and more frequently. So which one is worse, aborting them before they actually know they are alive, or waiting until they are in school learning and playing with friends and having there lives “aborted” because of senseless killings. Our focus is in the wrong place yet again.

[JessicaEarl]

We don’t leave it up to the parents in circumstances of abuse. We don’t always get to stay out of peoples business when it’s endangering children.

Also 74 people have died ins chill shootings so far this year out of a country of 300,000,000+. So a child has a.000025% chance of that happening. On the other hand, around 4000 kids drown in their own pools every year. I know people feel smart being cynical, it it doesn’t work very well in serious conversations

[bamesjond0069]

"However, it’s not my place to tell a young mother or couple what they should do in there situation."

So it's not your place to tell me what I should do if I want to kill my neighbor? Right?

[motownplayer2000]

@JessicaEarl lol you can pull up all the stats you want too to try to prove your argument. Shit I could say about 8% of child attempt suicide and 17% of those are serious.. about 160,000 kids between 10 and 24 are admitted. Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death for kids and young adults. I think that trumps the pool argument. However, that has nothing to do with ABORTION… now does it? Which is what this post is about. Stick to the argument. Had nothing to do with kids that are living already and have cognitive thought. Your argument is unrelated.

@bamesjond0069 no, it’s not. Since I am not your neighbor I don’t really care what you do to your neighbors. However, your argument is still not valid as these are cognitive, rational thinking people who KNOW they are alive, have a good semblance of a quality of life and achieved multiple milestones in physiological ability. An unborn fetus has not had a chance to know that they are even alive. However, this isn’t a rational deep dive into the logic of born verses unborn, this is a political stunt equating it to something as unrelated as killing your neighbor. Lol there are laws established for killing your neighbor, the laws are still very murky about unborn babies. I don’t condone killing my own babies if I were to have them. However, my stance is clear and clearly a trigger for you and people like you. I don’t tell people what to do with their bodies or situations. As I think logically through the born verse unborn concept, logic dictates that that’s up to the people that are having the baby, ultimately the mother. Do not have the right to meddle in there business, that’s up to them and the doctors to make that decision.

[motownplayer2000]

@bamesjoned0069 imagine your spouse or SO were to go through the pregnancy and early on, they discover that if this continued, it would hurt the mother, the baby or all the above. By your logic that would mean that the pregnancy must continue. Because of the self-righteous indignation you feel about other people having abortions, you would need to stand on your own guns and probably lose both your loved ones in the same go… or be labelled a hypocrite. Now I know the arguments 1) I don’t care what people think. 2) “that’s different, there are exceptions to it all. 3) “no you are just a jackass.” But here is what the beauty of my argument results in… it doesn’t matter. The mother of the child doesn’t owe, me, you or @JessicaEarl or anyone else on this forsaken planet an explanation of why they are doing what they are doing. Could be for medical reasons, financial reasons, rape… it doesn’t matter. ITS NONE OF YOURS OR MY DAMN BUSINESS! So throw out all the unrelated bullshit scenarios you would like about people in your neighborhood or community it’s not the same.

Lastly, since we are on the game of unrelated scenarios, I’ll play this game too. What if I came in your house and told you you needed to get rid of all your guns, pay me a tax for being in your life, tell you how to raise your kids, what tv shows you were allowed to watch… how would that make you feel? I mean the government is doing half that stuff already. And pushing for more.. and what’s the response… “the government can’t tell me what to do… I’m a free citizen I can do whatever I want..” lol so basically you would be tell the government to mind there own business… 🤔

[Unknown29]

Nobody asked for your opinion, either.
What’s going on? Conservatives aren’t allowed to talk?

[motownplayer2000]

@Unknown29 nobody asked this OP to ask this question. You say conservatives aren’t allowed to talk. Fair question… but why do I have to accept your rant either? This OP may a post, I answered it, just like you responded to my answer. No one asked you to respond to my answer.

I feel like, liberals are over aggressive when it comes to sharing the views, and conservatives instead of standing by what they say… “we don’t push agendas, or have to make you believe what we believe…” are becoming just like that… it’s cool your stance in abortion is have the kid, pro life… cool! Keep that shit in your inner circle and people who believe like you.. same with liberals, if you believe in pro choice, LGBT and all that great.. keep that shit in your inner circle and people that believe like you. It’s not discrimination if I don’t want to hear the shit that you are saying.. but damn I will let you know how I feel if I have to hear it and see it. Don’t get mad and don’t get triggered whatever side you decide to plant your flag. Sides are taking you for a fool to push there agendas anyways. This is why I don’t want to hear either. But you know what my stance is.. so don’t get mad or stay triggered, it really doesn’t matter to me.

[bamesjond0069]

@motownplayer2000 "no, it’s not. Since I am not your neighbor I don’t really care what you do to your neighbors. However, your argument is still not valid as these are cognitive, rational thinking people who KNOW they are alive, have a good semblance of a quality of life and achieved multiple milestones in physiological ability."

Like all arguments of your type. So I can kill my neighbors retarded kid? Your alzheimer grandma? A newborn baby? Someone knocked unconscious? Someone born with serious physical disabilities? The list goes on. Being cognitive, knowing you're alive, having a quality of life... they are all terrible measures.

"there are laws established for killing your neighbor, the laws are still very murky about unborn babies..."

And so? Did you know there weren't always laws? No law HAS TO BE. Everything is up for discussion. I mean there are laws against abortion now so boop now established so therefore why even argue about it. Right? It's illegal in many states and anyone wanting pro choice is just poking the bear.

"... they discover that if this continued, it would hurt the mother, the baby or all the above. By your logic that would mean that the pregnancy must continue."

This situation does not exist. The real situation is the mother has a medical issue and correcting her issue could kill the baby. Currently, abortionists say have an abortion and then do the surgery. So directly kill the baby. What I would have them do is just do the corrective surgery and if the baby dies it dies but its not the same as preemptively killing the baby.

[Unknown29]

@motownplayer2000 So you believe a woman has the right to kill an innocent baby for, in the vast majority of cases, her convenience? This isn’t a women’s rights problem; NOBODY should be allowed to take a person’s life, and that includes a fetus. A fetus can sleep, kick, and recognize its mothers voice, as well as other things. EVERY pro-choice person WASN’T ABORTED!

[motownplayer2000]

Lol that’s your argument? “Everything (law) is up for discussion…” lol you said that they had a quality of life. Let me ask you a question… what quality of life does an unborn baby know? What have they accomplished? Here is a better question, what makes you the moral high standard for what everyone does in there life. Let me ask you a very real question… what if the people decided that hey you want to have all babies be born, yeah that’s call. But we will call you pro-lifers… you guys will be put in a pot… you have no choice since you want these babies born, if the parents decide they do want to give those children up or they have disability, it is YOUR responsibility from now on to take care of them. They will start assigning these babies too all the self-righteous moral “high ground” having folks like yourself. You want to be the voice and say that people must have the children, then it is you that gets to provide for those kids and you don’t have a say in the situation. Would you willingly accept that? Since killing a baby is wrong, then abandoning a baby (doomed to die) would equally be wrong.. you are forcing people to do what you believe, and so you have to deal with that responsibility…

I bet your answer would be it wouldn’t be fair, it’s the people that are having the child’s responsibility to take care of it… and if you rationally would say that and agree that that’s the case, then you have a moral obligation to take care of the children that parents don’t want, or have disabilities because you pushed your idea that people must follow your ideology. I hope you are smart enough to see the concepts behind these scenarios. Because just like you wouldn’t be ok haven’t unwanted responsibility thrust on you because you decided you want to tell people what they should do, the later is true. Which is why my stance is the ONLY correct answer in this situation, or we should start enforcing the scenarios brought forth earlier.

[motownplayer2000]

I hope you participate in fostering kids that don’t have homes. Visit the local orphanages. And do things for kids that don’t in situations that don’t have parents or have parents that don’t want them or can’t afford them. Because when it comes to the self-righteous pro-lifers, the buck stops when the child is born. Y’all don’t care what happens to the child after it’s here. Couldn’t care less if they died in a elementary school or middle school shooting. Once your goals are accomplished as far as your agenda, you feel empowered. And that’s the reason I don’t take pro-lifers seriously. I sincerely hope you @bamesjond0069 are different. But history in these situations has prove otherwise time and time again.

@Unknown29 I’m not fight for abortion.. this is where you both continue to he confused. I have stated countless times that in my situation, I would never choose abortion even if it was an accident or didn’t have my situation right. However, I’m not the moral authority on everyone’s life to say what they do in there life. It’s easy to say NOBODY should take a life. However, with that logic, a brain damaged vegetable of a person should never be taken off of life support because that would be killing them even tho they will never have a quality of life, or a serial rapist and killer should never get the death penalty for the gruesome murders of little 6-9 year old boys and girls. Or heck in that case, cops can’t neutralize a threat to the rest of society because hey no one should take a life.. and I know your answer would be those are exceptions.. but your post was clear NOBODY should take a person’s life. There was no qualifiers to your statement. And we all know that that’s not true. Again, I’m not coming into your house telling you how to eat, how to raise your kids what you should do for work, etc.. that’s none of my business. And I sure as hell don’t want that moral obligation for that. That should be up to the parents of the child and the doctors.

[motownplayer2000]

If they want to proceed with the operation, sure that’s on them and there conscious. But I’m not the moral compass for everyone in society. I don’t really care what the stance is for the two of you. It’s a sad day when we force people to follow our agenda and they turn our backs when your agenda is more important than the children you force them to have.

[bamesjond0069]

Wtf are you talking about? How is killing kids making them most important? 🤔 are you on drugs because that's the only way this makes sense

[Unknown29]

YOU’RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! You can’t be pro-life without being pro adoption. I definitely think the parents should take care of it if they possibly can. And saying I don’t care what happens to them once they’re born, what an insult.
I should’ve took mark twains advice and not argued with you in the first place.

[bamesjond0069]

@Unknown29 I mean isn't that obvious? Never heard anyone saying they were pro life and anti adoption. Lol 😅 but I have heard of people who can't see the forest for the trees and only care about unrealistic hypothetical or that 1 in a million whack job and everyone breaths... no not everyone one man didn't and held his breath till he died. Like wtf nonsense is that.

[motownplayer2000]

@bamesjond0069 nope. Just making more sense then you can handle, buddy. It’s fine. Sometimes concepts that are so simple to understand are too complicated for people that have personal agendas.

@Unknown29 have you taken in kids that are not wanted? Have you fostered countless amounts of kids? Have you tried to volunteered to take care of children that were in orphanages. As we can’t corroborate your stories if you say yes. I’ll let you think on that. Just because you say you care about those kids. Doesn’t mean you actually do anything about it. Be insulted all you want, quote whomever you want all you want. A person that has been true to what I mentioned wouldn’t get offended, but would graciously point out they have and will continue to do so.. your response shows you don’t. I hope this is a lesson to all of you who put agenda over people. ✌️

[motownplayer2000]

@bamesjond0069 what? Now that was a jumbled mess of words you put there that last comment. Clarify that. It actually made no sense.

[bamesjond0069]

@motownplayer2000 Well here's a gem for you...

"So which one is worse, aborting them before they actually know they are alive, or waiting until they are in school learning and playing with friends and having there lives “aborted” because of senseless killings."

This makes no sense because almost nobody dies this way. Even if they did? So what? I'd prefer to die later than sooner. So your line of reasoning makes no sense to me. Clearly you prefer to die later than sooner or else you would have killed yourself and here you are. So it's really just empty nonsense coming from someone who doesn't believe their own argument.

[motownplayer2000]

Lol. This logic is perfectly clear. You in this day and age kids have a higher chance of dying from a mass school shooting than then they do anything else. It is officially the highest cause of child death in America today. As opposed to abortion, which has not be at the top of any list as far as these deaths because that’s not how humans work. More than half the time a mother would rather keep there child. Unless it’s instances of rape or problems with pregnancy. Yet, here again, we have to waste time trying to educate you all on the fact that freedom of choice is more important than your agenda in this one instance than figuring out what we can do to help get rid of children dying from gun violence.

I’m actually agreeing with you partly as in I personally wouldn’t have any woman carrying my child to abort it… however, I take the higher road where I’m not taking the moral responsibility to tell someone what they need to do. So if you didn’t understand that simple concept.. I don’t know how to help you, buddy, I truly don’t. You will figure it out eventually tho.

[supercutebutt]

@JessicaEarl Over 15,000 people have died of gun violence in America so far this year. Around 2,200 children have been injured or killed by guns so far in 2023. By the end of 2023, we are on pace for 1,500 child DEATHS by guns. Maybe your # of 74 was in the first day of 2023?
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

And you added a zero to child drowning deaths per year in America. It is under 400 child drowning deaths/year.
www.usatoday.com/.../

[Unknown29]

@supercutebutt what about drug deaths? I mean that’s sad and all but nearly double Americans are dying by drugs and the woke politicians you support are doing NOTHING to stop it. Biden decriminalized marijauna, and opens the border to cartels (and terroist, spies etc).

[supercutebutt]

@Unknown29 It sounds like you want big government to protect you. Nanny State Unknown29 should be your new nickname. Marijuana is basically a states issue. And are you implying people are dying from pot? LOL! And nobody has "opened the borders to cartels." You are a misinformation parrot. Maybe that should be your nickname, too?

[Unknown29]

@supercutebutt lol it sounds like you want government to protect YOU (about your view on gun). Do you think decriminalizing marijauana is going in the right direction to curb drug deaths. Abou an open border, EVERYBODY (including you) who knows anything about anything knows there are record illegals coming into America and your politicians are ENCOURAGING it. You know that.
God bless America And Trump 2024🇺🇸🇺🇸

[supercutebutt]

@Unknown29 I predict a mentally ill MAGA freak will try and shoot Mike Pence but because MAGAs are inept, he will miss and hit you instead. And I will laugh. And then I will give your eulogy. And then EVERYONE will laugh. :)

[Unknown29]

@supercutebutt No I like pence more than Trump lol.

[supercutebutt]

@Unknown29 Me, too.

[Unknown29]

@supercutebutt from my experience, a very small amount of maga supporters want to hang Mike pence. The media just blew jan6 up just so they could blame trump and maga.

[snowboarder720]

You never really touched the topic that pro-life isn’t really pro-life when it comes to other people who are homeless, immigrants, orphans, mothers of their un-aborted baby in poverty, mothers facing fatal consequences of having their baby, etc.
I mean really, all pro-life wants is to only focus on who or what they want to pro-life for. Honestly they could careless for the mother but “oh no, not the baby!” is really just them cherry picking who deserves more rights than the other. It’s really inhumane of them to pick a fetus, who hasn’t entered this world, should have more rights than EVERYONE else. Even the two who are responsible for creating the baby! That’s just nuts to me.
It should be the creators right to choose because they had the choice to bring it into the world to begin with. There’s NO REASON for anybody to step in and take away their right to choose about what should happen to something that they’ve created. You’re stealing their right to choose what happens to what they’ve created. Their choice doesn’t harm you and nobody else besides them and what they’ve created.


Meanwhile the far right want to limit who should vote to vote, who should carry gun, support white supremacy, support a former U. S. President who is has been indicted of several crimes and more to come, and donating to aid convicted murders (Derek Chauvin).

[SusanColleen]

You don’t know what you’re talking about. The pro-life community cares for life at every age. It’s the churches who created the schools, the orphanages, the hospitals, it’s Christian’s who adopt the most children, feed the hungry and clothe the naked. It’s the left who see every new life as a burden on resources, Christian’s and other pro-life see the beauty, the genius, the fingerprints of God on each new life created. No I don’t support illegal immigrants crossing our border as the Biden administration is currently encouraging, but that is an unrelated issue

[snowboarder720]

You mean the church who’s also responsible for sexually assaulting children? Hmm how many serial killers were Christian? Too many to count.
Church has no existence in laws. You’re fine to practice what you want because it’s your right to choose. The same reason why others should have a right to choose too. Have a nice day!

[SusanColleen]

You are blinded by your own anti-Christian hatred and can’t see the truth. The Catholic Church molestation issue is a closeted homosexual male problem doing what homosexuals do, not a church problem (I’m not Catholic by the way). You’re right to a degree, it’s compounded by Catholics not allowing priests to marry, a perfect hideout for a gay man to have respect as a priest and yet fulfill his evil desires have access to young boys,

No mass shooters I can ever remember were committed by Christians, the vast majority of mass shootings are committed by 1. The mentally ill in most cases. 2. muslims such as pulse nightclub and San Bernardino. 3. Activist Transsexuals such as in Nashville and Colorado. 4. Illegal aliens such as in Texas last week and many others.

The United States constitution was largely based on scripture, there is precedent for the Christian faith in American law, that’s why our freedoms have the entire world wanting to move here. There is no “right to choose” when it comes to owning another person as a slave, and there is no “right to choose” regardless murdering your own unborn children.

[SusanColleen]

Nonsense, the attack is against unborn children. Planned Parenthood was initially called teen “negro project” by founder Margaret Sanger, with the stated intent of limiting or eliminating the black population with birth control, abortion, and sterilization targeted to black neighborhoods. To this day Planned Parenthood enters are largely in black neighborhoods. The black population in America is 13%, it would of been 35% now had the abortion industry not killed so many black babies. Every statement PP publishes is a lie, 98% of what they do is perform abortions, they only do “medical care” in terms of checking the pulse, BP, and a Pap smear of a woman as they kill her child. I understand how difficult an unplanned pregnancy is, I became a mom before I was really ready at a very inconvenient time, but when I look in my daughters eyes I nearly cry knowing that in other families with different values she could of been legally killed with taxpayer money up to the moment of her birth. Abortion including the abortion “pill” is not an easy out to make an inconvenient child disappear, rather is is a deliberate murder that all those involved have to live with the rest of their lives when they look in the mirror, they snuffed out a human life.

[Paradisepup36390]

It is irrefutable that any woman whom has had an abortion procedure done on their developing child in the womb, making the choice for them to live or die, will regret taking them out of this world.

Rape, Incest, and Death of the Mother are serious issues, but nobody should have the choice to determine another person's life. The baby is a person whom is alive with rights that the mother needs to speak up for, if not someone else if the mother is intent on ending the child's life, as they are alive and growing from conception. It is foolish and evil to assume they aren't alive when they most certainly are.

Children should not be treated as an inconvenience.

All pregnant women should be given proper Healthcare options to take care of their baby, and couples need to actively plan carefully when they are going to bring children into this world, and avoid casual sex at all costs. In other words, all parties involved in an unborn child's life, mother included, willing or unwilling, need to be accountable, Compassionate, and committed to being there for the child.

Fmr. President of the USA, Ronald Regan Said it Best:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."

[Brittanyroseee]

Ok so if your wifes life was at risk, you would instead save the fetus? Wtf?

[Paradisepup36390]

In this day and age, with modern technology and advanced medicine, even in lesser developed places like India or South Africa, the child and the mother are both saved by by the medical professionals and doctors whom perform the delivery operations. As a result, the problem you speak of is nullified as a non-issue. Women don't die of birth in a hospital full of people who actively take care of them and ensure their health and recovery before and after the birth, unless they are severely ill or weak to begin with, and no such person would or should risk pregnancy while they're dangerously prone to illness and disease. Only healthy women seek pregnancy for a reason.

C-Section Pregnancies tend to work just as well as traditional deliveries that are facilitated with some form of medical technology extension to the delivery allowing for the child to be brought out of the womb safely, and with the mother unhurt. If you hadn't noticed, Pregnant Women are treated like royalty at the hospital. Mothers Don't die of pregnancy anymore, in the 1st world, in 99.9999999999% of cases. And exceptions are not the rule, but are outliers, but they're obviously tragedies that need to be studied and added to the innovations of medical care so that even these.0000000001% of the death of the mother cases are prevented from happening in the first place, and thankfully, they tend to do just that.

[Paradisepup36390]

*Fmr. PresidsntRonald Reagan
Autocorrect

[Paradisepup36390]

**Fmr. President Ronald Reagan
2nd and final autocorrect

[Brittanyroseee]

I still disagree with you lol

[Brittanyroseee]

Even rape? You would expect the victim to carry that burden? I would hell not😂i would see it as a parasite, a burden, a curse. Nothing i would love or see as a blessing. I would feel infected and disgusted as if i was carrying a disease or tapeworm. A product of rape, would hold no value to me. Rape is traumatic enough and women have died from childbirth by the way

[Valkyria]

@Brittanyroseee Why do you people always use the very, very small percentage risk to control the very vast majority of abortions being done when the mother and child are both perfectly healthy? It's moving the goalpost and it's so manipulative. It's like saying that nobody should drive a car because some people are stupid and crash it. When will you even remotely think about the baby that, guess what, dies 100% of the time?

[Brittanyroseee]

He still said he is against abortion even in cases of rape. So thats why i said all what i said lol

[Brittanyroseee]

Not everyone who gets an abortion, sleeps around. What if its a married couple that doesn’t want kids? And they use protection or birth control and that fails?

[Brittanyroseee]

Honestly I don’t care about the “baby”

[Brittanyroseee]

I care more about already alive children in foster care that wished they had a family over an aborted fetus lol

[Brittanyroseee]

Banning abortion completely, bans it even in cases of rape. Why would anyone want that curse on them?

[strateguy632]

the content "Casting bad intentions on someone and putting words in their mouth is a horrible" was good advice. i hope they will, instead of lying "you won't make an exception if ma will die" like the common cardboard signs, that loses your support people are SMARTER than you think and They get turned off when you act like can sway them with such methods

on that note your TITLE is precisely that flaw. in social media both sides are writing, snd news companies both sides, so saying unheard is wrongly playing victim. also probly facebook censors Conservative as usual. not "victim" that "choice unheard" we hear those arguments that you listed as foolish.

also under attack" is pretending victim but people are not that stupid, they know court made it a state decision. the more you treat audience as stupid you turn off the audience... including your title... which disclaimer served my bias... from fetus angle it victim and loses MUCH MORE than only "unheard" fetus unheard AND dead victim.

[Investigator]

If we boil down the pro-life and pro-choice arguments down to their most pure elements, we have two opposing sides:
1) Motherhood is a blessing and babies are a gift, regardless of what situations bring the fetus into existence. Killing the fetus in the womb is a crime against humanity. This is a position primarily held by religiously-affiliated and conservatively-minded people.
2) Motherhood is a curse and pregnancy is a burden that women either begrudgingly or willingly accept to go along with--unless the woman decides to take her "power" back and abort the baby; the reason doesn't matter. Men do not have to risk getting pregnant, which makes the sexes inherently unequal. This is a positon held primarily by liberally-minded and irreligiously-affilated people.

Ultimately, although only the woman can decide what to do with her body--since it is her body, not our body--her decisions are borne by the greater society. Fewer people produce fewer people.

[Anonymous]

" We need to accept that we’re grateful that we were never aborted. We need to accept that it’s bad to be aborted. " Bullshit. At the time abortions take place, there's no soul associated with the fetus. If I was didn't go into that body, I'm going somewhere else. It's not bad to be aborted if you know you'd be born with a terminal condition, or a horrible disease that would kill you in no time.

"We need to stop using the argument of “so many women will die if abortion is illegal because they’ll go get illegal ones!” Unfortunately (or fortunately), conservatives are smarter than that." More bullshit. Women WILL DIE. Or they'll be fucking forced to carry a fetus to term that doctors KNOW will not survive - like what just happened in Texas.

" There are actual democrats stating that if a baby survives an abortion, we should kill them. " Like who? There are actual Republicans, like 21 South Carolina lawmakers, who are considering a bill that would impose the DEATH PENALTY on women who get abortions!

This is nothing but a soft spoken attempt to undermine a woman's right to decide what happens in her body. Fuck you, troll.

[Valkyria]

"It's not bad to be aborted if you know you'd be born with a terminal condition, or a horrible disease that would kill you in no time" uhh go ahead and tell the people who are alive that and you'll end up in prison for abuse. Try telling a kid with cancer that they're better off not being born, jeez. Alwayssss the exception to the rule, hm? Try to not move the goalpost, which is that most aborted babies were not going to be handicapped, next time.
It seems you pulled the rest of the information from some terminally online website that does not exist or exists in trace cases, all of which also have nothing to do with the very very very vast majority of abortions being done.
You're alive because you were never aborted, so just shut up and stop throwing a tantrum.

[Opinion Owner]

@Valkyria Hmm... nice deflective bullshit. What we're talking about, or at least the grown-ups are, are cases like the one I mentioned. Look it up since you're not from the USA. A woman was FORCED by law to carry to FULL TERM, a fetus that doctors KNEW would not, and COULD NOT survive due a LACK of BRAIN development. So my tantrum if you will, is because you're spewing bullshit. This poor woman was forced to endure 5 months of pregnancy knowing it would be still born or survive a few hours or days, artificially kept alive at most. If that's OK with you, you're a shithead.

What you FAIL in your ignorance to realize is that these restrictive, 6 week abortion laws being passed by the Republican states, are fascist and the equivalent to an all-out abortion ban. At 6 weeks, the embryo is the size of a kidney bean and 99% of women don't even know they're pregnant. After they do find out, in a fascist state, they have few options. One state even proposed a bill to allow the death penalty to women getting abortions.

"I'm alive because I wasn't aborted" is irrelevant, and simplistically obvious. But you have no clue if my soul would show up in a different body, DO YOU? You're simply trolling to make your case, which is "life begins at conception, and no, once that happens ladies, you have no say over anything because we'll legislate it away".

The goalpost is where it's always been. You just want to FORCE your particular unsubstantiated view on someone else's unsubstantiated view, when it comes right down to it. That, little girl, is the definition of an authoritarian state.

[Valkyria]

Lots of capitals, ad hominem, and swear words. You clearly see women as property to just pump in and expect them to kill their own child for your benefit. Good one.
Wow, one case, and it literally is made up of hot air lmfao. No pregnancy lasts 5 months. By your logic, she just aborted in a different way. And I guess you admit it's a life, then, by acknowledging it? That it also has a brain? If you think pregnancy is a torture, then I guess we can call every single parent, at least, and abortionists, child abusers. Imagine calling your own child some dehumanizing chore. Did your parents call you that? Because you really seem to be invested into this dehumanization, the only thing you're promoting here is ego and grasping at make-believe straws that make up <0.00001% of every single case. It's stupid you eat food because someone got sick from food, here's your idiot logic.

Those people are stupid if they don't take a pregnancy test within an entire 1.5 months. A woman can tell they are pregnant, it's not just some invisible thing you men believe it is. There's a psychological change, a hormonal change, morning after sickness, a maternal instinct in those who have an ounce of empathy, etc. You may not have all but you will definitely notice things. What excuse will you pull to protect your ego over a heart beating now? Again, if they want to commit infanticide, go ahead, jail has a very cozy space for baby murderers. Shall I repeat that it has a heartbeat whilst you compare it to a lifeless bit of food? What else do you want me to factually say that annoys you?

Nice strawman. Let's talk about the billions of perfectly healthy baby abortions which is what the entire point of pro-existence is about, now, I'd be glad to talk about at least one.
Shall we talk about how many mothers die from abortions, and the mental impact birth control has on women? Assuming you are an intelligent, reasonable man, you'd take me up on my offer instead of acting like a toddler.

[Valkyria]

I don't believe in souls, but I do believe in biological reality.
A child who almost got murdered can go on to live a happy and healthy life whilst the sociopathic mother is in jail. Win-win, or do you still agree that babies deserve to never live a moment in teenagehood and sociopathic mothers should roam free? Seems you're pro-life for the latter, too, weird logic man.

Project away to the end of the galaxy. I'm not forcing anybody, I'm simply giving you some science, biological facts, and a little bit of empathy that you clearly lack. You're whining and screaming. It is not force to leave a woman be. How about you let women be? Let the woman be. Let the baby be. Don't force the baby to die. Don't force the woman to abort through peer pressure. "Forcing" a woman to just exist, and grow normally, is not forcing. A human who sticks a finger in scolding hot water is an idiot, and telling them they should know better is not control. You are not toddlers, the fact you treat women like they have the responsibility of a toddler is concerning. Women know better. Nobody is dragging anyone away from having sex with hundreds of people, but they are allowed to disagree with you unless your ego is massive and refuses it. If you want to sleep with 200 people, you're going to get what you deserve, but go ahead and ruin your and everyone's life with diseases and treat others/yourself as objects, sure. You are, though, dragging people away from the development of their child. And the irony again is, nobody's allowed to disagree unless pro-life... literally in the name, are somehow the evil ones lol. Why are you all so hypocritical? If you truly want to go deep, I'll tell you how a certain bad group killed lots of people by dehumanizing and pretending that they weren't people. Or we can go a bit tamer and talk about people literally promoting the death of handicapped people as they "weren't fully human". It's uncannily alike to this lifeless "other" mindset.

[Opinion Owner]

@Valkyria Capitals are for inflection since my voice can't be heard. Your assumptions are too asinine to engage, as is your superior attitude, so a discussion with you is pointless, but I'll be brief.
The biological reality you insist on relying on is based solely on the fact there are cells forming and therefore they have certainly inalienable rights, even though they're not capable of surviving yet. You believe these rights are more important than the mother's rights because they "can't protect themselves". Simple point is I do not. That's what you call a strawman.

The dehumanization begins when a baby is born to family, or person, who does not want them. Especially in Western Civilization, if it's born to lower class whites, or is a baby of color, it will be put for adoption and enter a miserable foster system. After that, who knows? You see this as a better alternative to abortion. I don't.

Also, why do you even think a 6 week period is acceptable, or do you? Sounds like you support no abortions under any conditions at all.

Oddly, if you don't even believe in souls, who ARE you protecting? Or is this just your righteous stance on the sanctity of the human condition. You wish to compare Nazi's killing the handicapped, or gays, with a woman's heartfelt decision to terminate a pregnancy. Yet, you claim women are smarter, women know better. You claim women are smarter, yet you ridiculously suggest that they have abortions due to peer pressure?

Either they're smarter, or not. So fine, then give them the RIGHT to decide, along with doctors, what is in the best interest for themselves and a potential child, instead of giving them NO right at all. And if they're spiritual or religious, it's between them and their God, not a bunch of legislators and their beliefs.

This was as brief as I could be.

[Twalli]

Women who want abortions will get them whether or not they're illegal. That's a fact, it can't be argued against. If you want something enough you'll find a way to make it happen. However, unlike some things, illegal and unsafe abortions can kill or irreparably damage a woman. Also, last time I checked there's a reason we don't have children vote. drink, fight in wars, they're not considered adults, they don't have the same rights. So why should we assume that there are only two stages of rights in humans, children, and adults, why not three? Most pro-life people seem to ignore two very important things. At the time a fetus is aborted it looks the same as a pig and elephant fetus. In fact, I could show you three pictures of a fetus of a pig, elephant, and human and you couldn't tell them apart without knowing the measurements. So essentially you're giving something that could be a pig or elephant's fetus the same rights as a person, but not pigs or elephants. The second thing is that in some cases it's better to not have a child come into this world. If they're born into poverty, join a gang, or become a pimp can you honestly say that we really needed that gang member or pimp to be born, because if he wasn't the world would have been so much worse off?
I'm more extreme than pro-choice people as I actually support abortion. If you really want to raise a child, adopt. In fact, there are a lot of people who could be adopted that would love a family that is as loving as you think yours will be. I would even go as far as to say that you're prohibited from having children unless you pass the same qualifications it requires for you to adopt. If you aren't fit to adopt, you aren't fit to give birth either. The legal process for adoption would need to be changed, reformed criminals could adopt legally, so reformed criminals can still have children with their spouses.

[Brokenheartedx]

So many kids beaten up and murdered by both their fathers and mother's, during lockdown little Arthur and star, both beaten to death by the very people who were supposed to protect them. They'd have been better off aborted than the pain and neglect caused by their parents. Instead 4 years old and knowing a cruel world in a place that should of been safe, you wanna talk about pro choice, pro choice is allowing people not fit to have kids legally allowing them to abort them before the senses of the embryo kick in. Because if it was a choice between a group of cells and and actual living being then the bunch of cells has to go

[Valkyria]

Thank you for a very amazing mytake that brought to light the most common problems and the things that always get hidden. But sadly, I doubt the vast majority of pro-choicers can use their brain even if they wanted to. We wouldn't have such a sociopathic lack of concern for the well-being of life by dehumanizing it if so... as if how they're treating beings says enough already. Some even admit they know they are killing "it". They're the same type of people who don't care about life if it's out of sight, out of mind. And yeah, the irony of themselves not being aborted and they think they have the right to go against the evidence of their own life.

[molonski2]

What can I say? 10 absolutely wonderful points , and its certainly not just a " womens issue " , that statement makes me so angry.

I always give the example of my friend , I was 25 , she was 23 , she broke up with this guy that I knew well , she already had a 2 year , and was pregnant , demanding an abortion that was possible at that time , she was booked in prior and had two weeks to be " booked in " ( you talked about secrecy in ultrasounds , so true ) , she found out after the procedure that she had twins aborted , she tried to brush it off , act tough , not care , but as the years went on she never recovered , and took her own life in her early 50s.

Just understand , you will never recover , and its not just the decision of the body carrying the unborn live child , you are destroying a part of yourself.

[Friendlybro79]

We need to have choices. If your pro life then you know what to do when you become pregnant. For others it is controlling them if they are not able have control over their own bodies and decisions. It is as simple as that. Telling others how to feel and how you have to look at it is controlling in of itself. This decision isn't for others to decide for you. Some circumstances above are the reason why choices are important. Choice means you decide. So pro choice supports you to keep it if you want. You're not convincing anyone this isn't about control.

[JessicaEarl]

I’m not convincing anyone about abortion itself. I’m offering a better way to offer messaging for pro choice people, who need it since they are losing political power in many states

[Friendlybro79]

I appreciate the idea. That said I don't agree with how you want to go about it then.

[JessicaEarl]

Eliminating bad arguments is the only way to do it. The arguments listen only hold up in echo chambers. Once challenged, they crumble

[Valkyria]

For the same reason that nobody is "controlling" a drug addict or a criminal by preventing the abuse to happen. They consented to the act, they even consented to the chance of responsibility, and so they deal with the responsibility. It's actually really difficult for even trying couples, these people you speak of sleep around like rabbits and have no morals or care for other people. A couple who uses their brain, checks their cycle, uses condoms (which clearly nobody uses anymore), and doesn't fuck every 2 minutes is almost never going to get pregnant. They should learn as such, and if they would abuse their child, then I'd like an alive child and a child abuser in jail, this shouldn't be controversial unless you somehow agree with child abuse. If abortionists, if it was illegal, would commit infanticide or neglect or abuse their own child, jail is where they belong, not scot-free to commit the act millions of times again. Women who abort usually abort in the double digits over their life, clearly they're using it AS a form of birth control. Wait, "control" is literally in that word. Oh. Turns out the women are controlling themselves, mate.

[Friendlybro79]

@Valkyria This is simple. You can absolutely feel this way. Honestly I do understand your points. That said you can hold yourself to these standards. Be pro life no matter what for yourself. Others have justifiable reasons whether you agree with them or not.

[Anonymous]

How about just staying out of other people’s lives and minding our own business? The pro-life agenda is nothing more than forcing morality on those who don’t share that morality. It’s a form of tyranny. I don’t know if I could ever get an abortion myself or not but it’s not my place to judge others who make that choice, especially when their choice has no effect on me (or you). Personal freedom should be valued more highly by society. I don’t care if it’s an abortion, marrying who you choose, smoking weed, owning a gun, burning a flag, gambling….. if it’s not harming those around you, leave it alone. Let people live their lives.

[RiseofArtemis]

If we want total fairness and Equality then Abortion shouldn't exist and be illegal. Men don't have reproductive rights at all so neither should have Women a choice if they want to have a child or not.

In fact you do have a choice if you want to have a child or not, both do. Its called abstinence or using contraceptives and being responsible with what you do. Its your fault if you allow some guy to rawdog you even if you don't want a child.

Abortion is just another thing to get away from responsability and acountability for men and women.

I'll only accpet abortion when someone can tell me at what point the baby is dead or alive.

Spoiler if its dead it can't even grow in the Womb

[John_Doesnt]

Wrong on multiple accounts, but you're probably just looking for people to agree with you and talk about Jeebus.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[b]

Praise Jebus for showing me the light!

[Brittanyroseee]

Its all about control😂

[Exterminatore]

@john

You can hate Jesus all you like but try not to pull verses out of context and use them.

Paul who wrote this is calling for orderliness in worship. The Corinthians had questions about how to conduct worship. Women wanted to be the teachers and leaders in church and Paul is simply saying that is not their place. It’s not their place to argue scripture and if they don’t know the meaning of something they can ask at home instead of disrupting the service. Paul isn’t simply talking about simply speaking but more an argumentative nature.

You failed to copy and paste why this is from other sections of scripture as Paul does go on to explain his reasoning.

The key word is submission. Women are not to be the leaders in the house or church as this is not the ordained roll God created them for. God created Eve to be Adam’s helper or assistant, not to be the shot caller.

You find this tyrannical I know.

Just look at our society now as we have women trying to take on the roll of men and failing. Perhaps they should stick to what God created them to do.

It’s not within their nature.

“To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall deliver children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The word translated as desire there does not accurately represent the Hebrew term. It means the woman, the wife will seek to Usurp the man in the house and want to be the head. Women have taken this nature of theirs, the desire to rule over men into every place in society. It is the result of original sin.

Women are emotional and relational reasoners. Those aren’t qualities which lend themselves to being a good leader.

[John_Doesnt]

@Exterminatore I don't hate Jesus because he does not exist. I am praising Jebus, he helped Homer get off that Island somehow. Also, you final remarks are sexist as hell, proving my point.

[Exterminatore]

@john

Well, I am unashamedly a sexist by the modern definition of the word.

If you seriously think women are equal to men I suggest you take another look at them. We are in no ways similar let alone equal.

If you don’t hate Jesus why do you insist on calling him Jebus?

[John_Doesnt]

@Exterminatore I never said Jesus, you did. I only said Jebus.