I don't know if you guys have heard but there's an election going on in Canada. One of the issues discussed in yesterday's debate was the niqab. The Conservative government wants to ban face coverings during the taking of the citizenship oath, while the Bloc Quebecois wants to also ban all public service employees from wearing it. The left wing parties however argued that it violates religious freedom.
For those of you that don't know the difference here is a picture.
Personally I agree with the French ban and would like to see that in Canada. I have nothing against Islam, just the face coverings since I believe it promotes segregation and anti-social behaviour. From my understanding of Islam, the niqab and burka are not mandatory they are a choice so banning it would not be going against Islam but against the individual's right to choose her clothing. I believe that promoting social unity is more important much like wearing clothing with inappropriate messages is not allowed in schools.
Ban during citizenship ceremonies but allow everywhere else
Ban during citizenship ceremonies and for people working in the public sector
Ban wearing it in public
Don't ban it since it infringes upon their rights
Other
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I have nothing against the hijab I merely used this picture so people could tell the difference between the 3.
Honestly I am very non-religious and I think many religious practices are really dumb and I wish Islam did not shame women for even just having bodies. But it's still Canada and people need their religious freedoms, I can't ban Mormons from accosting me on my way to school just because I think it's annoying and dumb. I can't get any help when anti-choice people scream at me outside my highschool and now university, and follow me down the sidewalk yelling in my face until I cry. Because technically it's "freedom of speech" and screaming and verbal abuse is still considered "peaceful protest". Nobody likes religious fanatics, nobody wants to put up with it but in order to be fair we have to give them the same freedoms we have. And honestly Muslims never scream at me and wave signs in my face on my way to school, and Muslims never stick their foot in my doorway to keep shoving their religion down my throat like missionaries do. There are WAY more annoying things religious fanatics do, than simply what someone chooses to wear. If we put up with having the book of mormon shoved at us and having "HELL AND DAMNATION TO THOSE WHO ATTEND THIS CARNIVAL, GLUTTONYYYY!!" screamed at us from angry christians when we are just trying to have a fun day at the fair, we can sure us hell deal with people wearing burkas!
It's the same as the Catholic faith they believe that their is something evil about the female body because it leads men astray. Most religions do this they blame women for men's lack of self control.
The ban on the niqab is for the wearing of it during citizenship ceremonies, not just for everyday life.
I support the banning of essentially covering your entire face for legal reasons like getting your citizenship. If I'm asked to remove a bobby-pin that's holding my bangs back for passport photos, why teh fuck should someone else be allowed to cover their face to get their citizenship, when I've been born here and a Canadian citizen from birth? It's not even for religious reasons because Islam in no way forces women to wear a niqab. The wearing of it is by choice so... yeah, we should be able to see an individual's full face at the very least.
I think it is honestly a disgusting thing for a government to do. It's a clear overstep and an infringement on their rights as individuals. I do not care for your argument for social unity because there are literally a million ways to do this without infringing on someones right to practice as they please.
things that promote social unity: community gardens, community art projects (like murals), community fundraisers, festivals, fairs, after-school activities, volunteering opportunities, community service, community cleaning, etc
I'm Muslim and here's my point of view: I think that Hijab is fine in any situation, The burka is only worn In Afghanistan so I don't care about it. The Nikab: I would understand if it's banned in Europe, it's not part of Europe's culture and it's not even an Islamic requirement (only hijab is) so what's point of wearing it.
I have nothing against the hijab. I merely posted the image since people tend to confuse the 3. I have seen a woman in a burka and most recently several women in niqabs.
Burka is a traditional Afghani thing I think. I honestly never ever seen any woman in a Burka in my whole life, and I lived in Saudi Arabia for a while... The nikab is prevalent in Saudi Arabia (and other countries in a lesser extent), it's an Arabian tradition that predates Islam actually. I talked to a Nikabi Algerian woman once because I was curious to know her opinion, she told me that by wearing the nikab, she tries to detach herself from the earthy temptations and tries to create a stronger bond with God by detaching herself from earthy distractions (her parents were against it and she wasn't married) and for her it was an act of devotion... Some women might have a social pressure to wear in some poor uneducated villages as-well. So it depends on the girl I guess.
@GLADIATOR55 You're the drunk one, you just said that it's the prophet who wore the niqab😂 And yes, niqab predates Islam, as for the Quran it's clearly stated that the hands, feets and face aren't to be covered. It 's not forbidden but it's not a religious duty AT ALL
So that's the burka lol I don't know that Shia only wears those As for niqab it's more like an Arabian tradition than a relgious thing actually u find it at Saudi Arabia a lot As for hijab it's a relgious order focus with me now : in Islam women SHOULD wear hijab by their own discussion but no one can force any woman to wear hijab as here for Egypt is a prove of that when u walk in the streets u find the woman who wear hijab and talking to her friend who wear shorts we IN EGYPT don't order women to wear hijab or niqab we have a freedom in this but I don't know about other countries ik dubai they wear what they want like us and that what Islam says u should wear it but u r not forced to wear it as for women of course , and as for niqqab it's banned in places like in praying women can't pray while they r wearing niqab it's forbidden to pray with it it's haram women should wear hijab when they pray and as for hajj it's also the same so like I said niqab is more like a tradition more than a relgious thing 😊
I think it is just ridiculous that people get special rights merely because they've been indoctrinated to traditionally do something that doesn't necessarily hold any real value. The laws and "religious freedom" already allow far too much, as you can see, you can just wear a niqab as a way to express your religion then rob a bank or kill anyone and no one will know who you are; or let's not forget that the only reason why male genital mutilation is still allowed is because the Judaists and the Islamists are fighting to make sure that they can legally chop parts off from their own sons to "express their religion".
I think the laws should apply to everyone, regardless of their religion. And if the laws prohibit something, then the religions should adapt. They're just belief systems, after all. We should work towards a civilized society and improvement, not just be bogged down by the past.
Exactly what I'm talking about. Apparently cutting off parts of a male child's genitals and then a random dude sucking blood from the bleeding penis is seen as "totally okay" because it's "part of religious expression".
We should look at these behaviors objectively. Then ban them for being human rights violations.
you know what? Fuck that! Why should religion matter here? It's pubic space! Does it mean i get to carry around a bomb for "religious reasons" too? How about a broadsword? or what about going naked?
what the difference between a niqab and a balaclava? how would YOU see someone weaing a balaclava in public? Why do you see the niqab differenty?
and in case any liberals on here need a frigin legal reason to crack down on the niquab and burka, i'll give you one (speaking for norway at least). We got a law against public masking (wearing clothes covering your face) here in norway. And balaclavas are covered by it. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that a niquab and burka (especialy the burka) carries EXACTLY the same effect. Thus you can stop it there. It's breaking already existing laws! And why should religion exempt you for them?
If it does exempt you for them, can i speed for religious reasons? shoplift? Go nude? See the absurdity here?
@jcquesvol doesn't change the fact it is still per norwegian rules at least considered public masking, and thus illegal. it's not about how it's practice, but what's written in the law. Because by that logic, speeding should be allowed because everyone does it anyway.
Publlic masking is ilegal, niqab and burka falls under that definition. Hence you have legal grounds to outlaw them.
Tell you what, i know a lot of people has a fucking problem with balaclavas. Take it on, and enter 7/11 late at night. Look around the store. see how the workers react. Or better yet, do it with cops around.
I hate sanctioning religion outside of government, but i honestly believe the niqab and burka do stem from negative ideals that i really don't think religion should support.
See i just don't know. Isn't it someone's right to not eat bacon or drink coffee or dress ridiculously conservative? Isn't it someone's right to be an uptight radical feminazi, mra, kkk, or 5% Nation?
Basically i have the same stance here as with the US CoC's and gay marriage certificates. It's cool if you wanna wear silly clothes and talk about your special magic book at the Neverending comic-con that is your life. But when you do your job you convey an aesthetic your institution decides on. If you don't agree with the practices then pursue a different career.
I agree with it as well. You can't enter a bank or school or whatever naked, why would the opposite to be ok? Covering your eyes when interacting with people in our culture is considered rude and it should go without saying that immigrants should respect that. Apparently it doesn't though, it needs a law
@Omar5881 well I don't agree with either but I think a hijab should be legal and a niqab or burka not. At least not in certain circumstances, like churches, educational institutions, courthouses, churches...
I agree on hijab of course but I agree with u on the niqab and burka thing I just know burka now 😂 hijab is BANNED IN SAUDI ARABIA during Hajj so it's not an offensive thing to banned it for security reasons or if it's not accepted by certain society
the only dress requirement in islam is that women dress "modestly" so there is no point in looking like the grim reaper. in western societies we show our faces and they should respect that.
Lol if i were to rob some Bank, i would wear a niqab or burqa to avoid being recognized.
With this reasoning, i voted 3. only allow the hinab to be worn in public. We're not loving in fucking Desserts anymore. No one needs to wear that shit. Would it be OK if i created a Religion that says its members have to wear a ski mask?
I would say not to ban it. Who really cares about it? I mean, the only time I can think of it being reasonable to ask a woman to take it off is in airport security and things where you absolutely need to see someone's face to verify who they are, but there's no point banning it if it's not 100% necessary. If we won't ban a nun's habit, then we shouldn't ban a woman's hijab, niqab or burka.
Canadian here: Honestly I think it would be pretty hard to stop people from wearing something they want to wear. Especially a Hijab as it doesn't cover her face. Niqab and burka are a little trickier as we are normally a little more open to other cultures here in Canada, but I honestly don't see them as being an issue. Long as they aren't forcing the native women to wear it (which I have never see happen) there shouldn't be an issue.
I don't think there's any reason to ban hijabs, but I don't think niqabs or burkas should be worn in situations where people need to recognize you as an individual such as on driver's licenses etc...
I'm not sure how I feel about civil servants wearing them.
So what happened to freedom of religion and expression? I guess you don't have those in France. So a girl could wear a bikini which covers barely anything really, but couldn't wear a religious symbol of their faith and devotion? Just because you don't like their religion doesn't mean you should have the right to ban them from practicing it in their own way. But come on Canada don't let me down!
There's also security concerns as it covers the face. The hijab is one thing, but the Niqab and Burka should be banned. They originated as tools of oppression and subordination to being with. At least with the Hijab, the face is still exposed and the identity of that person can be determined.
and motorcycle helemets got this little visor, y'know. Dunno about the US, but over here they're transparent. SEE THROUGH! so they're not concealing the face.
Many of those helmets did not use transparent visor, didn't you notice that? And with those who had, you would be perfectly able to see the face of the person.
regarding the bike helmets, i was speaking based on norwegian laws, as well as quick research regarding the rules in the states.
But the point is; there is a rulee about public concealing. yes, there are exceptions, but in those cases it serves a sepcific and direct purpose. The bike helmet is for biking. and i'm pretty damn sure if you entered a bank with it, any cops present would ask you to remove it. Same goes bot slalom helmets with goggles; it's accepted in specific settings.
But burka and niqab is a catch all. It's aways or never. And as i see it, alowing it can not be marginally justified. especially not when the more commonly used hijab covers the same use (even accrding to islam itself). Hence why i'd say banning it is very much justifiable.
1. it's pubic masking 2. you have other religious symbols (the hijab) serving the exact same use, without public masking.
@dartmaul15 A government which bans a religious symbol loses its neutrality and partipates in a religious war. If it 's about banning a religous symbol, thrn all should be banned
@jacquesvol yes, all religious symbols breakingwith public masking should be banned. Period.
Ii just feel that any and all religions should be operating within the boundaries of the state law. And as long as there's laws prohibiting public masking, then ALL forms of clothing doing that should be banned (obviously there willbe exceptions in context, like motorbike helmets when driving, etc). Simple as that.
@dartmaul15 It's not the masking that's a problem. It's the visibility of Islam in public which hurts extremists. They consider we're at war against Islam. Read what @evenlift wrote yesterday here: "For the duration of the war against political Islam, Islamic dress should be banned. But, it really is far from being the most pressing measure."
I see no reason to ban Muslim peoples religious clothing or whatever they stand for i think this thing with Terrorist has given the Muslim religion a bad name but I'm no way going to judge them.. I've met too many Muslim women who have treated me like their white Christian King and i just love them for being so nice to me and they are for sure my Queen in many ways.
Banning the clothing may decrease the risk of a terrorist threat, since their profiles would be visible. Now, not all Muslims are terrorists- but there is a good number of them who are and will where the said articles. Besides, how can these women be civil workers if there is a cultural blockade separating a genuine native to Canada and an Arab/ Middle Eastern foreigner.
1st Amendment: Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It is a direct violation. It's a practice of a religion.
How many women actually wear the niqab or burqa in Canada? France and Belgium both tried to ban them. They did a study and found that less than 30 women were niqabis. If the number is under a thousand, there's no use to the ban.
@jacquesvol yes, but different story. The niquab and burka covers the face. Hence public masking. You dare tell me using a fucking utensil does that too! Because it doesn't.
This isn't about the clothes being religious, it's abotu the fact they cover your entire frigin face! And as said earlier, is considered public masking. ANd in case you need to b educated, it was banned in france in 2010. So tell me, why should the niquab and burka be considered "not covering your face"? Hmm?
And don't drag breivik into this. That's pretty much just pulling a reducio ad absurdum, and will make any norwegian on here think you're stupid. Just FIY
@jacquesvol now you're just being a dick Raybans or sungasses in general covers your eyes, not your whole frigin face! So your point is kinda moot. And sure, i'd love to ban makeup. Bu y'know, they're not hiding main facial lines. And there's a difference between a little makeup, and havingthick layers of it.
So please be a little serious, and stop this use of reducio ad absurdum!
Yes, asker. I agree. For some within Islam, modesty means showing your face only to your husband. Do I agree with this personally? No. Am I going to tell someone they shouldn't do it? No. I understand the issues with security and I think that some alternative should be found. What this alternative might be, I have no idea.
@jacqesvol really? really? you really play with reducio ad absurdum. well, guess it just proves several things. mostly that you're willing to go off topic in attempts to discredit people you disagree with, and pull the /sexist/racist/oppressor card to do so.
Fuck this, i'm out of here. you're clearly not interrested in a serious debate
Hmmm.. It's a tricky subject so I don't have that much of a solid opinion.
I'm all for religious freedom but I don't like the idea of people getting more rights because of their religion. Maybe the niqab and burqa should be banned at banks, since no one else is allowed to cover their faces there... I'll just see what everyone else says.
They should be allowed to wear whatever they want, but when it comes to citizenship ceremonies and getting official documents and etc should have to show their face to an official. Which is, I believe, how it is now...
I have been considering moving ro Canada recently. Thinking about British Columbia/Vancouver area. Any advice/tips you have? I am prepared to work hard, have zero criminal record, and like the outdoors/skiing, cooler climates (though not freezing).
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