We have no choice but to be offensive and defensive players at the same time. I wonder what the consequences of that will be in the long term.
The downfall of society. It's already ongoing with the downfall of the family unit and it will just get worse. But that will only be possible as long as we still live in our decadent and wealthy society. When a big financial crash or something alike comes - people will go back to the more important things.This is also the reason why the entire bdsm thing is growing. This more extreme living out of dominance and submissiveness - at least in a sexual area - is a means to balance out the lack of natural masculine and feminine traits.
The BDSM part never crossed my mind, but it's an interesting viewpoint. But today, everything is about sex because it's not a taboo anymore and thanks to pop culture. It has become a part of public life in a way (again, pop culture, advertising, etc). So I wonder if BDSM tendencies didn't already exist in a time when talking about sex was taboo and people kept them to themselves.
Yes and no. Biologically its obvious that guys prefer to take control and girls prefer to be taken. But there is a healthy level of expressing it or it becoming an extreme. Extremes in general are signs for things not going well-rounded nor being balanced.Media, pop-culture, etc. just pick up on whats been there already to begin with - and thus amplify it through exposure.
You're right. Although I would still say that humanity has always struggled to find any sort of balance and when we do, it's usually a short lived "golden age".And I agree about what you said about the downfall of our societies. Even what has become our core values support the downfall.
Of course. Its always from one extreme to the other. Too conservative, too liberal. Too prude, too slutty. Too nice, too selfish. So on and so forth.The eastern religions talking about finding balance in yourself all have a point.
Can you give your definition? I want to hear different opinions and I will not shame anyone for having their own opinion.
Part of my definition includes strong, independent, self sufficient, and a leader not a follower
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What do you think about promoting stereotypically feminine things? And as a feminist, do you think the traditional concept of femininity makes women "weak"?
I think promoting stereotypically feminine things is idiotic especially because their "femininity" is usually completely arbitrary. A great example for this are the colors blue and pink. Some parents these days like to paint their baby's bedroom blue or pink, according to whether it's a boy or a girl. Pink is feminine, blue is masculine... makes total sense, right? Beeeep. Wrong. Makes no sense at all. In fact, most people don't know this but only 150 years ago, pink was considered a very "manly" color and blue was considered a color you should only use for girls. Funny how those stereotypical things suddenly change, isn't it.And no, I don't think the traditional concept of femininity makes women weak. I think the essence of what educated feminism says is that all women and all men should be the way they feel most comfortable. I support personal freedom and tolerance of others, so I think that's a good way to go.
Thanks for elaborating. Does this mean that masculinity and femininity are just "social constructs"? Should we just get rid of the concepts of masculinity and femininity altogether?
Well, if by "masculinity and femininity" you mean gender, I would say yes, it's largely a social construct. Of course we all feel differently towards our body and our fellow human beings, so there's probably also a bit of psychology in there. However, the idea that there are gender roles and one should fit into those gender roles according to whether he/she has a penis or a vagina is very much societal. It brings us back to that very first question: what makes you a woman? What makes me a man? I'm no expert on this but I assume that the Aztec society 2,000 years ago or a society in the distant future might have very different takes on this question than us. And even in the present time, there are many different concept for what is "feminine" and what isn't, depending on the culture you grew up in.I wouldn't maybe go so far as to say that we should get rid of this whole gender-idea because even if it's socially constructed, it's part of our society and our (cont.)
every-day lives (like race too). However, I do believe people should develop a more critical stance towards these things, instead of just accepting the traditional stuff that society teaches them. For example talking about politics was considered extremely unfeminine for a very long time in western civilized history. It was considered something "unladylike" that you just don't do as a "proper" and "feminine" woman. Eventually, new generations came ahead and challenged this view, asking "why exactly is it unfeminine? What is unfeminine about it?" and so, society changed its course. I think there are cases today where we could and should also adopt this questioning, challenging stance. For example we could ask "what's un-masculine about wearing skirts?" (there are cultures where men wear skirts). Or even more provocative: "what's unfeminine about being promiscuous?".I'm not saying that society is always wrong but rather that we should never just accept stuff without questioning :-).
Thanks for taking the time to explain
What's your personal opinion?
About what again? Femininity? I like a feminine woman. I have kinks for domineering women, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can take charge of your life, be independent, but still be feminine. Women are so concerned with being as strong as possible and proving that they don't "need no man" that they look at what men are doing, or what men have done to be considered strong by society and their peers, and will just forget to be themselves in the process.The problem is that *some* women are basically men these days but still expect to be treated like a woman at the same time. You need femininity for that. If you don't want to be feminine, then so be it, that's her choice, but I laugh at those same women who complain that chivalry is dead or that they can't find love.
Chivalry seems to be dead because it's incompatible with equality.
Chivalry is incompatible with equality and that's the funny part. Special, preferential treatment towards women is far from being equal to men, but I'd bet there's some people out there who'd like both if it were possible. I think what a lot of people might confuse it with is civility.
Everything gets confusing. If we try to achieve equality, what does it mean to treat women like women?
Are you a middle easterner who lives in the west?
Yup, that's correct.
When I think of feminine women, I think of Japanese women. Traditional gender roles: housewives who cook and clean and raise children, not go-getter career women. I think of gracefulness, not assertiveness. Do you value that?
hahah... asker, you *do* know how finances are handled in a TRADITIONAL Japanese household, do you not?If you don't... lemme tell ya.In a TRADITIONAL Japanese household... the husband goes to work, comes home, **literally signs the check over to his wife's name**, and then SHE has complete, 100 percent, unequivocal control over the money.Mhm.Also, if you think that a traditional Japanese husband is more "assertive" IN THE HOUSEHOLD than a traditional Japanese wife... Ahahahaha. That's the same thing the idiots who get mail-order brides think (not from Japan, but, same thing)."Tiger mothers" are called "tiger mothers" for reasons.
@redeyemindtricks I was trying to get him to define 'the femininity that men value', to agree or disagree with what I said.
I understand exactly what you were *trying* to do -- but, you were also (accidentally) perpetuating a stereotype that's as wrong as it is widespread.Traditional Asian femininity is nothing if not "assertive". It's assertive as FUCK.The diplomacy and compromises -- that's all stuff that men do with other men, in those societies. The women rule their domain with an iron fist. You better believe it.
@redeyemindtricks I did it on purpose though. I wanted to use that stereotype :P
I was mainly thinking of Western societies, and not when it comes to house roles, since I don't believe one person has to do all the work at home while the other works outside (like in the past).I was thinking of behavior, how she talks, how she walks, the type of person she is...
But the whole point of this question is to talk about these things. If not, I guess we should just give up and let everything burn to the ground.
Bring marshmallows. It's gonna happen.Seriously, as a white guy from the U. S., PC culture gives anybody who disagrees with me an automatic excuse to ignore me. Talking about it has made things worse.
Oh, boo. Come on, straight white male. I'd like to hear your opinion.
Been burned before. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.
What about traditional gender roles?
i dont really care about them. a woman can be feminine without such roles.
Then should we support feminism to further destroy such gender roles? Maybe swedish women are doing things right.
if men and women want to follow such roles then they should have the freedom to follow them. on the other side i think its not a good idea to enforce these roles or to force men and women to follow them.
Excuse me, but, last time I checked, men who deserve the title of "men" could ALSO resolve conflict non-violently.I mean... Here in America, "let's settle this like gentlemen" means "let's NOT fight". Perhaps it's different over there?•___________________________________________________________•
The problem is that society will stigmatize you for not following certain roles. If you want to be a housewife who cooks and raises children, you will be bashed for it and you will be labeled as useless and unproductive. On the other hand, thanks to feminism… We get our modern western world with women who fulfill traditionally masculine roles. That will inevitably take a toll on women's femininity.
@redeyemindtricks please write an opinion! They are always well thought out and I'm awfully curious.
@redeyemindtricks i suppose i should've said peacefully instead of using the words "physical means". i think its just very feminine how a woman can calm your aggression just by the softness of her voice, no man can do that.
yes i am aware of the fact that feminism considers it a defeat if a woman chooses to live her life by traditional gender roles and they have and stigmatize it too. nobody said it was not feminine to go against this stigma and do what you want to do with your life. i also believe that being a housewife today is actually much more practical than lets say the 50's. today with internet you can work from home and make money, thus being a housewife and having a part time job at the same time. that was not possible in the 50's.
pffftt I can't do that either ("soft voice"). ahah.I also can't baby talk -- literally CAN'T (I would actually say things like "Suck it baby!" during nursing).Like, yeah, there isn't much stereotypically "feminine" about me, beyond my clothes and my skinny-ass body.__As for the conflict thing -- A real man is someone who ENDS fights and DE-escalates violence.This was one of the traits that just *blew me away* about my husband when we first met.We were in some club or another, and this guy was trying to pick a fight for some inane reason.Long story made short... Guy took a swing at my husband -- who caught the guy's arm in mid-swing, held onto it, looked the guy in the eyes for a looonnnggg moment (think... long enough for the guy to start panicking), and said, in an eerily calm voice, "You REALLY don't want to do that."He let the guy's arm go, and... well, let's just say there was no more fighting.As
for me... ahhah there was flooding downstairs, let's just say. I just may have actually been dripping down my leg, at that show of flawless CONTROL of the situation. The boy didn't even BLINK.<3 <3When we got back to our car, I MADE that man fuck me, right there, parked on the street, with traffic zipping by. There was NO WAY I was gna wait after something that perfectly sexy.
asker -- I appreciate the kind words.I hate trying to DEFINE things like "femininity". Defining abstractions is just too hard. (How would you DEFINE sexual attractiveness? How would you DEFINE physical beauty of things that aren't people? Etc.It's worth the effort to try to define abstractions when the definition actually MATTERS -- e. g., "How do we define the parent-child relationship?" -- but, this definition has no practical import at all. It's a waste of time."Femininity" means... whatever you want it to mean. Ask 3 people, you'll get 3 answers. Ask 3 people from 3 different cultures, and you'll get 20 answers. Who even cares.In general, things work better with fewer fundamental restrictions. A society where ALL the women are stuck at home and ALL the men work... is very obviously going to be worse, in every imaginable way, than a society where both sexes have actual freedom to choose between those paths. Like duh.
@redeyemindtricks womens voices sound soft to me compared to mens voices, there are a few exceptions probably, these always exist. i've found that women were always very good at calming my troubled mind. normally i would say that a real man does not exist, but in this case i have to agree with you. there is nothing manly about a macho man who thinks its manly to always search for conflict. its far more manly to stop conflict than to enable it. the fact that you were so ecxited about your husband resolving that conflict proves that.
@redeyemindtricks Those a really god points. Thanks :)
asker -- yw. <3@anonman32 ahah dude... no, really, my voice is not "soft". And it's so low that I'm almost a tenor instead of an alto... #tallgirlproblemssrsly I sound like a 12-year-old boy in the middle of the pubertal voice change... a 12-year-old boy who smokes 5 packs of cigs a day.
@redeyemindtricks really? it can't be that bad.
I try to play up the "raspy" / "throaty" thing, when I can. But... Not mellifluous.My personality is anything but soothing, anyway, so, it all goes together.
@redeyemindtricks "My personality is anything but soothing, anyway, so, it all goes together." well thats a good thing you have going then, focus on the positive.
Always.As my friends say, I'm "that girl who pisses positivity and shits glitter everywhere". Even though I'm kind of a bitch. <3 <3 :*@Luci92 isn't that right bb
@redeyemindtricks then we must have different definitions of the word bitch. i dont think you are a bitch at all, you are quite awesome.
@redeyemindtricks I would say you're mischievous, not a bitch.
Thank you two <3 <3 :* :* So much luvvvvBack at ya @anonman32, I have hearted you on many occasions. (asker, I have no idea who you are mahah)
@redeyemindtricks hey, im just stating the truth. and i dont know how to do these hearts lol, otherwise i would do some back.
less than + 3the lips are colon + asteriskyou can also get different colored hearts off iemoji. com. (once yr browser knows that page... new tab + type "ie" + highlight them + copy + paste... the whole sequence takes me like 3 seconds)
@redeyemindtricks like this? <3<3 :* :*
@redeyemindtricks You don't! We haven't really interacted before 🙈 hahaI know you're a good person and you like to give genuine advice. Your opinions are always well written and interesting, so I enjoy reading them.
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. I wish I knew who you were (I remember *lots* of what people say and write, so... I'd remember yr profile a lot better)@anonman32 You need spaces between the emoji codes
@redeyemindtricks 👄👄💙💚💛💜 i have emojis on my cellphone but i never went into the menu, i did not know there were so many lol.
Or you could use those.
@redeyemindtricks Oh yeah, but you're the best bitch around <3 :* :*
Then, *should* femininity be undervalued?
No, it's the essence of a woman
What is a feminine girl in your opinion?
-Long hair-Makeup-Into fashion-Jewelry etc. -Polite-Loyal.
You said femininity. How is this undervalued?
* You said femininity is undervalued.
As in women aren't being feminine anymore, i dont know why though.
Many feminists are "girly".
I asked the question because I'm interested in your and everyone else's personal opinions. Like redeye said above, ask 3 people and you'll get 3 different answers.
I'll take that as "better".
Finally an opinion from a girl. Thank you!
Lol you're welcome! :)
By feminine, do you mean traditionally feminine or something else?
I mean in mannerisms. Kind, sweet, gentle, loving, well educated, calm, strong, wise etc.
So, would you prefer a society with traditionally feminine women or is there an ideal middle ground?
I don't understand what you're trying to convey.
females "suffer under" a greater mix of hormones
That's what I'm asking you.
To attract mates.
I'm interested in your opinion, whether you agree or disagree with the premise of my question.
I'm interested in your reasoning.