I strongly disagree with the word privilege but 100% agree with the word ignorance. Good find sir!
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In my case my American side of the family was poor, from rural West Virginia. My father's side had a struggling kimono business which failed and went bankrupt. My parents divorced, partly due to the business failures, when I was quite young. I had to bounce back and forth between parents until my teenage years where I started to spend my time exclusively in the U. S. with my single mother working two jobs, only to lose her car to a boyfriend who just immediately left our apartment and took it without saying a word. It was reported stolen and turned up abandoned and broken down halfway across the country.I had my share of difficulty but none of this stopped me from working hard in school and competing to become the very best at what I did. I've never gotten the impression that the people who most complain about privilege put in the same kind of effort to rise to the highest level of skill in their field. If I did, it would be a more convincing argument.
I totally get what you mean and have a lot of respect for your work attitude. I used to be very similar throughout my school career.One point where I disagree is that I believe there are also cases that can't be compensated with merit. It might be a bit of a stereotypical example but let's take the single mom who was left by her husband. Surely she can work hard and many single moms do that... but it's just not that easy. She'll still be at a significant disadvantage. Or let's take the young black man who gets treated differently by the police than white men in the US. I think one of the most hurtful things about racism is that there's little you can do against it. Some people will hate you no matter how hard you try to prove yourself equal to them.Maybe it would also be helpful to not call this whole thing "privilege". It's a bad word choice. I think it's more like... people who haven't gone through your struggles often lack an understanding for your personal situation.
@BlueCoyote Agreed and one thing that might surprise you is that even though I'm kind of a hardcore opportunist who believes more in striving for equality of opportunities more than outcome, I'm actually a determinist with an engineering mindset to human behavior. I don't believe in free will.I don't believe that people choose to be poor or choose to be criminals or choose to be uneducated in the hard, free will sense of the word. I think they have no choice given all the environmental variables at play. And from my standpoint that actually garners a lot of sympathy on my end and a desire to start influencing and changing the environment for a better outcome where more people have a good chance to succeed.Where I tend to disagree with these protests is that they tend to be very, very divisive in nature instead of unifying. A lot of civil rights movements these days tend to apply that "you're with us or against us" mindset, and I think that only tends to make things worse.
Great response, I couldn't agree more :-). I once read a very interesting analogy by Immanuel Kant who didn't believe in free will either. He invented the story of man who leaves his office at the end of his work day in order to go home. As the man is walking through the empty streets of his town in a pensive mood, he suddenly thinks: "I can do anything I want!" Then he thinks about all the "free choices" he has that he never thought about before. "I could turn around and go back to work. Or I could go to a bar and get really drunk. I could rob a bank or find a young lover or climb the church tower and jump to my death. Or I could simply walk out of the city gates, move far away and start a completely new life." Despite his excitement, the man eventually decides "But I think I'm just gonna go home and have dinner with my wife."I love this analogy because it illustrates how free will might exist as a theoretical concept but in our actual every-day life, it cannot possibly exist.
The privilege is that you can afford skis and lessons. Without that, how do you become an expert skier?
@goaded That's an assumption. Maybe I rented the skis and maybe the lessons were free. Maybe I borrowed the skis and my family member is an instructor. Or maybe I saved up for the skis and lessons while working day and night doing two or three different jobs. Effort and commitment is not the same as privilege. People who are always looking for the privilege of others are those who can't be fucked to make any effort themselves. They are always looking for reasons to fail rather than for ways to succeed.
Then you could afford to rent the skis, or you're privileged to have a family member as an instructor. If you've got to work two or three different jobs just to feed and house yourself, you don't have the opportunity to learn to ski. Privilege is getting to skip one or two or ten of the steps to get where you want to be.
@goaded Lmao, sure, if you want to define every single thing that we have in life as privilege then every single person on the planet is privileged. Anyone who has life is privileged.If specified working two jobs, I didn't say what days and I didn't say that I would still be doing those two jobs at the point at which I was now skiing, nor did I specify that I couldn't take a vacation. This privilege thing is just bullshit. You have the privilege of buying into it, which you are doing. I have the privilege of being able to say fuck your privilege.
So, you do admit you're privileged, that's a start. The fact that you can imagine having two jobs and being able to save enough money to be able to stop working for a while, let alone learn to ski, shows that to be the case.People whose only privilege is to have life are usually too busy keeping theirs to look down on the dead ones.
@goaded I see what you did there ;) Of course I am privileged, as is everyone. Everyone has some level of privilege over someone else and all of us have privilege over those who have lost their lives and over animals and insects. Privileged are we all, which is why the whole buzz around privilege is such bullshit. It is excuse making for those who can't see how blessed they are and can't just get off their ass and make what they can of their lives. Who ever said that life should be fair and balanced?Anything else to add? Getting bored now.
@goaded you get a damn job
@kickme @super147 I'm all for saying that everyone should make the best of their opportunities, but it seems self-evident to me that society as a whole will do best if the opportunities are as equal as possible.Maybe the best natural mathematician in history is in the USA working for $8 an hour to make ends meet, whereas idiot sons of billionaires are running banks into the ground and losing people's savings.
@goaded Ok, fair point well made. Peace.
but the best mathematician is not working for $8.0 an hour unless he is really dumb.I'm short so I am at a disadvantage for many facets of life (sports, mating, employment). Where's my free stuff to compensate me paid for by everyone else?
@kickme Have you met any mathematicians? Not necessarily the best negotiators.Apart from that, how would anyone know if they're a gifted mathematician, if they've never been educated past the bare legal minimum in a crappy school?
@goaded I'm an engineer, I know lots of them from work. By the way, your stereotyping them as bad negotiators. Aren't liberals against that?In life and in business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. It's not privledge, it's life, which is unfair.the most privledged people are the ones who had 2 poor parents who emphasized their education. These people will be well educated and unspoiled and will have learned a good work ethic and will be very successful because of these traits. I know from experience.
@kickme I didn't say all of them were bad negotiators, but I know I'm not great at it, and I'm sort-of mathematically minded (programmer). Point taken, though.Your idea of the most privileged people doesn't take in to account the way the system works against them in the US, with legacy admissions which give a boost to children of alumni ("legacy admissions are practiced almost exclusively at American colleges and universities and are virtually unheard of in post-secondary institutions in other countries around the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences ).
@goaded you will never run out of excuses as to why your situation is not your responsibility. Neither of my parents attended college. I was still able to earn a masters degree
@kickme My situation is just fine, thank you very much. I'm second generation university graduate (both my parents were engineers), and I've enjoyed working on software for various space projects. I worry about other people's situations, and think that society benefits when the playing field is level and people aren't excluded from succeeding just because of their circumstances. The but for the grace of God, and all that.
It's all relative. I'm privileged compared to anyone born to poor parents, or people living in most of the rest of the world. Many people are privileged compared to me. It doesn't make me any less privileged. The point is that we should recognise when we are benefiting from our privilege and take steps to help others less privileged.
@goaded thank you helping to prove my point. If you want to argue that So-and-so faces issues on account of X, and that issue threatens the equality/legitimacy/basic morality of some system than we can debate it and I'd probably agree much of the time. I'm male and there are numerous examples of things women have to deal with that I don't and I'd be happy to discuss any one of those issues. But the problem comes when we try to take those issues and place them under an artificial term like priviledge. What you just proposed is a reasonable and agreeable definition of priviledge. But many people utilize the word in a way that assigns universal blame for anyone priviledged and as justification to ignore anyone with that label. That usage is completely out of line with what you just proposed. So I'm in a position where I have to attack your reasonable definition or accept all the blame that comes with harsher usage. The use of the word is disingenuous and does nothing to remedy problems.
I thought the usual cry was "check your privilege!", which I think is OK, in that it's just asking you to mentally run through a list of privileges you have over the person talking and just listen to the people who don't have that privilege and don't dismiss what they say because it doesn't happen to you.Examples being things like being afraid to walk to your parked car, having lower chances at a higher education because your school has no facilities or is falling down, etc.You can't expect much sympathy for your complaints that your cleaning staff keep knocking the antique furniture with their vacuum cleaner from anyone who doesn't have a cleaning staff.
@goaded How you use the word privilege is pretty bland and agreeable. If that was how it was used universally I would have no complaints. But that is not how it is used universally and it seems that is our main point of disagreement. I see "check your priviledge" used more frequently to say, "you need to shut up, and since I'm not priviledged I don't need to justify my beliefs to you" rather than, "you should listen". I contend that is intentionally weaponized language. We frequently use priviledge now where we would have used advantages in the past because priviledge has a negative connotation. Which is why all people freak out if you call them priviledged. If you try and explain that their is female priviledge, people go nuts even though if priviledge is what you described they should have no problem admitting to some priviledges. It's an attempt to slander, which is why people say, "check your priviledge" instead of, "no one can relate to broken antique furniture, get a grip"
The other thing is-I'm AMAZED at the amount of people (almost always young), who think that privilege (or not), can ONLY be measured by race, smh... perhaps maybe they'd prefer to be special autistics, or with down syndrome, or homeless in Michigan for 10 years w/o running hot water or a building anyone will let you be inside when it's -20 outside (and not once in a while-TWENTY FOUR-SEVEN)... the very things they take for granted EVERY DAY. Many of those same people I see complaining daily about it-have Air Jordans on, an Iphone, wearing brand name clothes, a roof over their head, warm food to eat each day, and a hot shower daily. Yet, people think THAT'S more underprivileged than the examples I just outlined? Yeah, lolol... ok. I don't see any of the complainers volunteering to sleep on a park bench in Boston in Jan!
But if you share some of your soil with them, they're likely to share some of their crop with you.
Fairynuff. However, I'd never oblige someone to share their soil. lol
I'm a minority and I had the same issues you did. You can't apply your specific situation to everyone and generalize like that. But I didn't get my job because I was a minority because I never indicate it on my application. In fact, a lot of minorities don't because it's believed we won't even get an interview if they know.
I don't support that type of treatment either. I will say this to you. If you are qualified for a position, you should take advantage of the current politically correct/discriminatory climate. Most companies are being pressured to accept unqualified candidates just to show that they aren't racist. A qualified minority applicant would be most welcome! Someday we'll get past all of this but for now just do your best. Thats what I do
it is true in some cases but not all, the case you brought up, yes it is. But that doesn't mean that people who don't have to deal with it are privileged. They have problems of their own.
Except that ignorance IS a part of the problem, specifically if you refuse to educate yourself because you refuse to believe there is a problem. Refusing to leave your little privileged bubble makes you a part of the problem because you are doing nothing about it.
@lumos good. then you're part of a different problem. So the whole "privilegie" cancels out and we're all equal.Let's be real, we all know the question was in the context of race and gender.
@dartmaul15 and what problem would that be?
@lumos see, you're part of the problem!okay, you got played there i'll admit that. And it was to prove front's point.As for the whole gender debate, my point is simple. Women are still to some extent disadvantaged in work matters, and men are still disadvantaged in familiar and emotional matters. So to believe you achieve gender equality by enabling women to compete in the workforce on the same level as men, is not to achieve equality. You're only halfway there. And to be quite fucking honest, we can and should work on both sides of the coin on the same time, or else you get an imbalance that will enrage the other side.makes sense?
@dartmaul15 I got played because you weren't making any sense? I wanted to figure out what kind of argument you were trying to use since you came out of nowhere. You didn't really prove anything. Aaand I'm still not quite sure what the rest of your comment has to do with what I posted.
@lumos I'll explain how you got played. The whole premise was that you were defending the argument of "If you don't see the problem, you're apart of the problem!" And then one message later you say "and what problem would that be?"You get it now?
@Maik567 I'm pretty sure the premise is that you willfully stay ignorant, and refuse to see the problem. Not just being unaware of it in general. Which is why I asked "and what problem would that be?" because I was curious to see what he had to say about it. Maybe it's just because I'm used to having other users reply to me with incoherent nonsense, but I didn't get the point he was trying to make. I got it after he explained it to me the first time. Just didn't think it was a fitting argument to make considering that he came out of nowhere and gave zero context. Which is entirely different from purposefully turning a blind eye to issues you don't personally have to deal with.
@lumos No one said anything about being "willfully ignorant", at least to me it's pretty obvious that front2back was talking about when people use the sentence "If you don't see the problem, you're apart of the problem!" as a way to completely ignore or demonize people who disagree with you.Surely you have to see why you asking "and what problem would that be?" was funny after in this context.
@Maik567 I think it's implied that "If you don't see the problem, you're apart of the problem!" applies to people being willfully ignorant. I don't think "see" is used literally, as in you not *seeing* the problem, therefore not realizing it's there. It's more like saying "If you don't recognize that the problem exists despite evidence pointing to it, you're apart of the problem".I don't see it as ignoring or demonizing a person for disagreeing with you. If you see it as an attack, then maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that way.Funny? I don't know I just thought him jumping in was weird.
@lumos Why do you think that's implied? I guess it depends on your experiences but from my experiences it absolutely isn't, I've heard people throwing that sentence around and when they've been asked to explain "the problem" they haven't been able to and have just attacked me for being "ignorant" or "racist". I think the difference here is that when you hear that sentence you automatically assume that the problem actually exists, but there are people using sentences like that to try to legitimize their non-problems.
@Maik567 because I don't think it's a phrase that should be taken literally. If people use it wrongly, then obviously it's bad.But in terms of racism and sexism, hell yeah you're a part of the problem if you turn a blind eye to it. The only way to get rid of such social structures is to speak up.
@lumos Well when some people are using it literally, it's pretty hard to not take it literally. But I get what you mean, we're arguing about two different things here.
I noticed that, too:
gotta love that affirmative action
seriously kill yourself...
you already know white people down voting right now
I ain't even white
Struggles my ass
I disagree with the first part of your statement
I'm African American and I strongly disagree. Any further comments?
Tron5678Liberal101, when you lose an argument, hurl insults
kickme I am not a liberal and I was talking to the original poster and not you. I can't stand liberals aka stupidity
@Tron5678 my bad, sorry and rock on!
@HungLikeAHorsefly : It's a bullshit term used by the Left in an attempt to discredit anything a white man might have to say.
So white men don't have any inherent privilege? It's all made up?
Uh, no, that's not what it says at all.
but that sign says that..
or rather means that
for example a privileged person can be against child marriages that happen in poor countries.
so by "thinking" that child marriages are a problem, according to that statement, doesn't it make that privileged person unprivileged?
by the way that person's privilege being that they are not forced into child marriage.
That sign says that since you don't have to deal with a struggle then you don't think it's a problem because you aren't dealing with it. People know food shortage is a problem but not many do anything about it because it doesn't impact them.You're capable or recognizing a problem but since it's not a problem for you personally then you do nothing about it.
That's fucking stupid, you are what you choose to be.
@Emiko I didn't choose to be born in a lower middle class family with a skin color that gets me stares when I browse through a privately white owned store. I didn't choose to not be born a multi-billionaire, or to have a skin color that makes white people say things to me like "I don't like you guys but you're different. You're not like the rest of them." Get out of here. I'm 17, I can't "choose" to be treated any kind of way when people make assumptions about me because of my appearance ALONE. I dress well, don't sag, and even speak your "proper" English around you.
My father is a drunk and beat my, I'm half white, half Native American, my sister left when I was 8 and my brother killed himself when I was 14 and I got raped that same year. I left my house at 17, worked 3 jobs and finished high school. Now I am going to college because I made my own path. I didn't blame others for my misfortune I made my life better. And you think your the only one that gets looks for the color of your skin?
I got attacked by 2 black and a Mexican my freshman year, because they saw me as white. In my school whites were persecuted, in the summer they're ask me what I was mixed with talkin Spanish to me saying I wasn't proud of my heritage!!! I'm fucking Lakota and I'm white and I'm proud of both of those things!
I'm so tired of hearing that white people are privileged. The most persecuted person on this earth is a MAN and even more persecuted is the White man, he didn't do nothin to you! Or me. Not one of my people that are alive today can say they have been slaved and not can yours! And you know people of color are not the only to have been enslaved, the white man has too
I'm tired of the people who play victim
"I'm tired of the people who play victim.">Shares entire life's sob story to use it as leverage for her argument.Hahaha, alright!It is a fact that black people will be denied certain things because of their skin color. A FACT. Racist people don't care if you're half Native American because you look white only. That's all that matters to them.If I had your same life story as you, depending on the people in charge, I could have been denied all THREE jobs, and denied admission to your college because I'm not white.
You did the same fucking thing as well. and I don't use it as a fucking excuse. My point was that I was anything but privileged. And I hate people like you. I've worked hard to get where I am. And do you know what I had to do to get the jobs? Do you know how many nights I spent trying to find a job, no. Because people like you give up. Quitters never win, and winners never quit, and I choose to be a winner. And believe me white people are not the only color of people who have racist in it. Everyone has been discriminated at one point or another.
@El_Buhdai lmao for real. She says she hates people who play the victim. And then proceed to write a full life story of drama. Hypocrisy at its finest!
@Emiko yeah the white man has been inslaved also but by who? The white man themselves so your point being?
@omgjassy and who do you think originally enslaved black people and continues to in parts of the world today... Hint-it wasn't white, Hispanic or Asian people
@rag13 hint it was the white arabs living in Africa so? Your point being
And do you want Emiko to just lie and say she's had a perfect privileged life so it fits your bs claim? She isn't whining or making excuses she's proud of what she overcame... Pretty sad I have to explain this to you guys
@rag13 never said she's whining all I'm saying is why is she saying "hate peope who play the victim" then proceeds to say a full life drama story. Like huh? I'm lost. I thought she hated those people. Practice what you preach. Reap what you sow. Should I go on? And nobody asked her for her life story
@rag13 and what you mean with you guys? You only tagged me.
@omgjassy you need a history lesson my friend... It was blacks who enslaved and sold members of other groups. Africa has always had the highest amount of slaves and they are owned mostly by other black Africans
@rag13 lmao you need a history lesson. It was the white arabs living in Africa. From Morocco, Tunesia and so one.
You can look it up for yourself if you want I can't fix your type of ignorance😎
@rag13 you fix your ignorance lmao. And are you seriously now debating who was worse? The people who were just living their live in Africa when the white men came with guns and other weapons. Screaming at you and killing you. Lmao you're really the lowest of the lowest. Victims blaming
@rag13 @Emiko and I'm pretty sure you both are the same person. I'm reporting both of you.
@omgjassy "I didn't choose to be born in a lower middle class family [...]I didn't choose to not be born a multi-billionaire, or to have a skin color that makes white people say things[...]people make assumptions about me because of my appearance ALONE."- this is what he said to me and my "life story" was a response to that crap.Also a fun fact for you, the first person to on slaves in America was a black man and he owned white men.Let's see ancient Egyptians had slaves of all colors, other African countries have done the same to their own color and other of different race
@omgjassy not blaming any victims just correcting your false statement and bs argument. Obviously you can't handle when people disagree with you so your throwing a little hissy fit. Great maturity and thanks for the laughs😝✌🏼️
@rag13 lmao why are you still responding?
@Emiko I thought we were talking about your miserable life? Huh I'm so confused now. I thought you were the victim🤔 Now you're taking about Egyptian people
@rag13 you're trying so hard to hide what the white man did. Why? Pretty sad if you ask me. Are you the same person going an intervention from an alcoholic and scream my sister is drug addicted. Like huh your logic is 1+1= -1
@Emiko You say "People like you", but you don't know a thing about me, all I mentioned is things that all black people will experience. Also, the reason I'm not a hypocrite for calling out your sob story is the fact that I didn't criticize people who use their story right before my statement.To be honest, I couldn't care less what you overcame and how you got where you are now, because it has nothing to do with racial discrimination. NOTHING. You were attacked by some individuals and had struggles not related to your race? Doesn't compare to what I'm talking about at all, which is that there is an entire SYSTEM working against people who look like me. You are denying that racial prejudice toward black people even exists, and that it doesn't favor white people. This makes you blind. Period.
Where do you think racial prejudice and white advantage ended, huh? Do you think it ended when ALL of the "Black Wall Street's" (powerful economic hubs built by and for black people) were bombed, burned, and looted by white people? No? It's too far away from today, you say? Do you think it ended when police bombed a black Boston neighborhood in 1985 (the "MOVE" bombing)? Never heard of that? Of course you haven't. :) Do you think it ended when gangs, which were originally created to defend ourselves against white terror from the police, were turned against one-another when and guns where planted in the black community by the government (not a conspiracy, there have been interviews with former gang members who were operating around that time).
So tell me, you egotistical self-righteous hypocritical dumpling. TELL ME WHEN BLACK PEOPLE EVER HAD EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES IN THIS COUNTRY AS WHITE PEOPLE ACROSS THE BOARD. TELL ME HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO "CHOOSE TO SUCCEED" WHEN YOU ARE BEING SABOTAGED AT EVERY TURN. IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, THEN STOP TALKING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T DONE A LICK OF RESEARCH. Just a news flash: Your individual experience doesn't reflect that of all people, sweetheart. ;)
I didn't mean to get worked up. I'll just let you think that racism and prejudice is dead. I could give you every example I've ever found from today all the way back to the 1800's, but you won't care. You can't see too far past your own reality and into the reality of people who look like me. Have a nice life. :)
Again I was using my experience in life to show that I know what it is like to struggle. My mistake too, I have heard of that attack but I thought it was in 1983. I also know that it was individuals of that particular police force and even those who weren't police. I think they should be tied to the end of a truck by their toes and dragged to death for that crime.
@El_Budai I'm not saying blacks aren't discriminated against, I'm saying that all races have and will continue to face discrimination and hardships. That's why never in my life do I ever blame or wish I was born into this world in any other way than I was. Because that's something I can't changeThe only thing I or anyone else can do is change themselves and how we react to the reality surrounding us. That's why I get mad when people of all size shape and color victimize themselves.
I have never been a victim... because to me, allowing myself to think that way is unacceptable. Because allow my self to say I'm a victim of anything would only mean that I have failed myself. And I refuse.
if you are born into a upper class white family pretty much all you have to do is not fuck up and you will have a decent life. if you are born poor or even worse a poor minority every bit of success you may have in life is an uphill struggle. so if you are born upper-middle-class and white there are a lot of doors that you only have to knock on you don't have to kick them down or find another way in.
@CyphorX I was not born into an upper middle class family. There were days when I was young that my mother didn't eat, because there wasn't enough food for us three children and her... Again like I've said I am no victim and neither is my mother. I am half white half Lakota. My mother full blooded Lakota was denied several jobs, I know the look of defeat well. I am saying this not to be a hypocrite as mentioned. Wrote but to relate. To show you all that I know what it's like to struggle in this world and that I am no stranger to it.
@CyphorX I have worked so far for everything that I have, so it angers me when other people who have struggled tell me that I don't know what it's like, or that I'm privileged because I have a lighter skin. My point o was trying to convey is that excuses get you no where in life, that it's not about what you have its about what you make of what you've got.
not excusing anything. just stating that things are easier for certain people. I'm not saying you didn't work hard for anything you have but I'm going to imagine that there are people out there who work just as hard as you do if not harder who have not gotten as far do the certain disadvantages.
. and also being that you weren't born middle class you only got part of the privilege. and yes I do understand privileged because I've had it also even though I'm a minority my parents did well for themselves and they gave me advantages my race did not so I only got part of those advantages.
who *want to make excuses
I also bet the guy holding that sign is just trying to fit in
So you earn being born male, or white? What you're saying is exactly the opposite of privilege.
@goaded being male is not necessarily a privilege, at least not any more than a woman is.As a woman, I don't have to worry about being forced into slavery if my country ever goes to war. I don't have to worry about child support or child custody. I could probably take advantage of a 13 year old boy and get away with it.
@Kirah So you have the privilege to be safely vote for wars. I have that privilege, too, because I'm relatively old.I have the privilege to be seen as awesome if I look after my children alone, even if I only do what would be seen as a mediocre job if done by a woman. I'm the one who will be addressed if me and my wife walk into a car or computer sales room, she will be addressed when we're looking for a new kitchen. I will generally be listened to more carefully when I speak (except in the family, they don't listen at all). I won't be mistaken for my secretary on the phone.They don't have to be huge differences individually, but they do mount up, and people should be aware of them.
@goaded I'm sorry, but fathers don't generally get as much recognition as you're implying. When people see a father with their kid, they're inclined to say "he's just babysitting".I'm a woman, and guess what? People *do* listen to me. I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the women who say "people listen to my husband, but not to me", just aren't assertive enough. Not everything is a gendered issue.None of the things you listed are actual "privileges", in my opinion. A privilege would be being favored in child custody battles. Or a teacher being able to take advantage of students. Actual privilege, not just social norms.