Is flag burning offensive and Why/Why not?

[curiousnorway]

#Flag #FlagBurning #Offensive?

Yes (Explain why, please)

No (Explain why, please)

Other (Explain what and why)

[BlueCoyote]

Absolutely no. In fact, anyone who claims different is an authoritarian idiot who clearly doesn't understand, nor cherish, democratic values.
And here's why:

A flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. By itself, it means NOTHING. It only becomes relevant when you consider the values that this piece of cloth is meant to represent.
In any democracy, freedom of opinion and expression is one of the fundamental rights and freedoms, protected by the constitution. It is usually one of the first 5 articles of a nation's constitution. CLEARLY, hating your own country's flag and burning it is precisely that - an expression of an opinion. Thus, this very act is PROTECTED under any freedom of speech article. In the US, the Supreme Court even ruled on this matter and decided that OBVIOUSLY, burning the flag is a protected freedom under the US constitution.

In other words: The very flag that's being burned PROTECTS the act of burning itself.
So anyone who claims that burning the flag should be illegal (or that it is offensive) has ZERO respect for the freedom of speech and for the constitution as a whole. It's just another way of saying: "I want to control what you are allowed to say and what not" which is deeply anti-democratic and authoritarian. THAT kind of attitude is offensive and DANGEROUS in any democracy, not burning a flag.

[BlueCoyote]

I hope I was clear enough to make even the most narrow-minded nationalist simpletons understand this matter.

[curiousnorway]

Thanks for answer! You replied very well. Many thinks it shouldn't be illegal, but that people should be allowed to find it offensive in the same way the word "idiot" is legal and seen as offensive at the same time.

[rjroy3]

Conflating an emotional reaction to an action with claiming that action should be made illegal is disingenuous. The question is whether or not you find it offensive.

You then say if someone "feels" offended by it they are now an authoritarian idiot. Then go on to justify the validity of the freedom, when that was never in question or implied lol. Obviously it's a protected right, but that was never the issue/topic and that doesn't dictate the emotional response others get from witnessing it.

It's kind of like saying someone is authoritarian if they feel deeply offended if someone were to break into your family members funeral, spit on the face of their dead corpse and shout deep insults to you and your family who are crying at the funeral. It is their protected right to say whatever they want and it's not illegal to spit on a dead man. Are you offended? You don't want to be an authoritarian idiot. Don't you understand and cherish this democratic value?

[rjroy3]

If the question was "Is flag burning offensive and if so, should it be made illegal?", then you could argue people who feel otherwise are authoritarian in some sense. But that wasn't the case here.

[BlueCoyote]

@rjroy3 Comparing the burning of a flag to breaking into a funeral is ridiculous. First of all, I wouldn't be offended either way but I would certainly be HURT (which is different) in the former case. And the reason I would be hurt is because we're talking about a real person now; one that was very close to me.
A flag is not related to me in any way. Nor is the country it represents. I know maybe 0.001% of my country's population and most of the other ones are people I wouldn't get along with anyway. So I don't see what there is to be emotional about a flag being burned.
Some dude burn the US flag... why does that even interest you. He hates America. Okay, good for him. 95% of Americans hate North Korea. What's the difference?

[rjroy3]

"@rjroy3 Comparing the burning of a flag to breaking into a funeral is ridiculous. First of all, I wouldn't be offended either way but I would certainly be HURT (which is different) "

Except it's not:

"of·fen·sive
adjective

1.
causing someone to feel deeply hurt, upset, or angry:"

If you would feel be HURT as you put it, then you would in fact be offended by book definition.

[rjroy3]

So your premise doesn't work. Feel free to work it out or be a hypocrite. It's up to you.

[DJZest]

Reducing a National Flag to a piece of cloth by describing what it is on a physical level is as stupid in magnitude as the universe is wide.

[rjroy3]

@DJZest

My guess is he didn't even look at the whole post before responding, which explains the shallow logic. According to his own reasoning he's an authoritarian idiot. Lol

[RolandCuthbert]

I feel like it is offensive. In America, you have folks that like to burn it to make political statements or to protest historical wrongs of the American government. And while I support their rights to burn the flag. I will be insulted by it.

As an "American", I know that many different cultural groups can go through periods of not feeling like America really cares about or wants them. Like now, I have many Puerto Rican friends who feel that the nation has abandoned them. I have some Arab friends who don't feel like they are apart of this nation now.

I would say that almost every non-"White" group has gone through that. Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, American Indians, African-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-, and so on. But this nation is ours. It is all of ours. "White", African-American, Asian-American, etc.

The flag's meaning transcends race, ethnicity, culture. . . it means freedom and opportunity for everyone. And no, our history is not perfect. What nation's history is? But we try with every generation to make things better. And if the flag does not mean that to you, then that only means that you should try to fight all the harder for the vision of American you support.

picturinghistory.gc.cuny.edu/.../...es-300x202.png

[Turkish_Delight]

Yes it is very offensive for me, it should be offensive for a normal person.
A flag is not just a piece of fabric. A flag represents a country's people, martyrs, national values, culture and people.
You cannot burn it as you like or whenever you want to, it is a huge disrespect.
You don't have to love any nation, but you have to respect every nation.
And why the hell those people burn Norwegian and Swedish flags even If they live over there as refugees?
They do the same here in Turkey.
I heard many news about Syrian and Iraqi people standing on Turkish flag and burning our flag, even we feed such a large number like 3.5 million of their refugees.

[Turkish_Delight]

Uuuh I typed people 2 times lol

[curiousnorway]

Some of these people are refugees/immigrants, but not everybody are it. Many of the people on these pictures are foreigners abroad who's angry on both Norway, Sweden and Denmark because cartoon drawers made caricatures of Muhammad that they found offensive.

[widdershins_]

Isn't flag burning illegal here in the U. S? I remember in elementary school we had the flag raising every morning and that minute of silence in almost any kind of weather. I remember we had this military guy come in and show us how to properly fold, unfold, and raise the flag and he was telling us that it could never touch the ground. He was so stern that I was scared he'd arrest us or something if we dropped it. Any sort of flag desecration is a serious offense in the U. S. Even if it's not illegal, you'd better pray that your actions don't go public.

[jacquesvol]

@widdershins "Currently, flag burning is not illegal in the United States. The Supreme Court of the United States in its decision from 1969 has ruled that the burning of the flag is protected by the First Amendment. However, the person who burnt the flag can be found guilty of a misdemeanor for starting a fire without a permit."

thelawdictionary.org/.../

[Curmudgeon]

The Supreme Court case that ultimately decided this, was Texas vs. Gergory Lee Johnson
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson(1989)

And the deciding opinion was written by, believe it or not, a "Right Wing" or "Conservative" Justice, Antonin Scalia, who concluded that political speech, even if it was, in the words of dissenting Justice Rhenquist, "an inarticulate grunt or roar..." was Constitutionally OK.

[widdershins_]

@Curmudgeon @jacqesvol Thank you for those details. I wasn't sure but I knew that it would draw all the wrong attention to you. It sounds like they have ways of getting flag burners anyways, though.

[jacquesvol]

The judicial system can get anyone, anytime.

[widdershins_]

@jacquesvol That's a fact.

[MsLoli]

It's a type of expression, and if someone wants to express hatred or disgust for the ideals symbolized by a nation's flag, then they should be free to do that. I wouldn't burn an American flag, myself, not because I think our country is perfect or anything, but because I'm just a pretty docile person and burning symbols isn't my idea of fun unless it's the Quran or something.

[PoliceLivesMatter]

Yes it’s immensely traitorous and offensive. I signify the burning of my country’s flag as something an enemy would do. Some people think it’s to protest injustice but the flag doesn’t represent that and the burning accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I don’t understand why someone would burn the flag of the country they’re in and continue to live and reap the benefits from, makes no sense. It’s just to be hip and trendy because most do not know the US flag stands for nor the humans that fought and currently fight for it.

[curiousnorway]

Agree.

[DJZest]

Me 2.

[madhatters4]

personally i don't take offense to it. but i can absolutely see why it could be viewed as offensive and feel that if people are offended by it's legitimate

i personally don't take offense to slights against nations mine or otherwise

[InfoBot]

The burning of a flag in itself is not offensive, it's a piece of cloth that has been mass produced by some profit making company. It's as offensive as burning a McDonalds happy meal container.

The message behind the burning of the flag is where the offense is given and, potentially, taken. The person is deliberately taking a big shit on the country of which that flag represents. That can obviously upset some people, particularly those who are fiercely patriotic or those who may have fought and seen others die in the service of that country.

However, I feel that taking offense is empowering the gesture and empowering the offender. In truth they have achieved nothing at all, they've just made some noise and there are millions of people online making noise all the time. One person's flag burning is another person's Twitter rant. It is only as important as you make it and only as powerful as the power you give it.

[liamgall95]

I think a lot of people see a flag as a symbol of their Country, and of the values that it stands for. Just like a Cross represents Christianity, a flag represents a country. Destroying or Defacing a flag is just downright respectful, for whatever reason.
In a lot of countries you can actually be arrested for destroying symbols such as flags. Such as in Thailand you will get a prison sentence if you destroy a picture of the late King. The only time you should ever be burning flags is if you are at war

[rjroy3]

Obviously it's offensive and intended to be as such. It's a "Fuck You" statement. Now I don't feel personally deeply offended. But for respect of the nation and as an American I do take offense to it. If it's a citizen doing it they are just ungrateful dickheads and if they're foreigners they really have no reason to even be here. Like why would you choose to visit a nation, then burn their flag in their land. It's disrespectful. I would never visit another country and do something like that in their land.

People can try to justify and defend it by saying they're just protesting. But we all know what it means and they do too. Anyone who burns the nations flag has that gut reaction "Is this wrong?" before they do it. Then they go through with it and backwards rationalize why they did it.

[wankiam]

just seen this and have to say you may find my own question interesting

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2712750-americans-do-you-know-the-laws-surrounding-your-flag

[curiousnorway]

Interesting!

[HeresJames1]

Fuck yeah it is. Its a symbolic slap to the face of everyone whose trued to make this country better, everyone whose fought for the values the public hold, everyone whove went through struggles and came out the other side in a better way, its a slap to MLK and JFK, its a slap to your parents, a slap to your bloodline, a slap tp the people around you, its a very bad thing. At the time, its symbolic of how we have lost our way, symbolic of how corrupted our heirchy is, a symbol of the need for change, a remembrence of how our gov LITERALLY commited genocide and slaughtered the native American people over the course of hundreds of years.

[Humbledman74006]

It is a symbol to me, as an American, of the greatness we should be. She flies huh as a reminder to us of freedom, of the blood spilled for that freedom.

When she waves through the air, there have been many moment in this man's life when I felt she waived at me.

Moments in this man's life when she draped those who gave all so she my fly, they security that remains for those.

When you burn our flag, you offended me. Our flag, when you love beneath her and your burn her, you say you want her no more. You disrespect 1.3 million who died for what she represents. You disrespect the millions who offered their lives. Sir you disrespect me.

Go ahead, burn it, do it in front of me. Just be prepared for me to exercise my oath, to which I have never been relieved, of all enemies, foreign or domestic.

[BuckWild]

Yes, I find flag burning to be very offensive. I feel blessed to live in the United States of America. a very special place with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that guarantees freedoms even when the majority disagrees. Where we have the freedom to actually burn our flag in political protest. I may be against flag burning with every fiber of my being, but the fact that you can burn the flag in political protest is what makes this country great and I would die for your right to do it.

[williamsa1997]

I find it offensive but that doesn't mean they should stop them doing it, I mean if you burned a blm, antifa or pride flag you'd probably get accused of a hate crime (uk police would probably charge you too) but an American, Dixie or any other non-leftist flag getting burnt gets praised, that is what I find frustrating, at least if it's illegal then there wouldn't be that hypocrisy.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

I wholeheartedly support people's right to burn the flag if they choose to. But when I see someone burn the flag, I have an emotional reaction of extreme sadness. I can't watch it. I certainly wouldn't ever do it.

Then again, I get a little teary-eyed when I hear the national anthem. I don't have an explanation for that one.

[NearlyNapping]

It doesn't offend me at all. It's freedom of speech. I don't see how you be for freedom of speech and against burning the flag. That's contradictory.

A lot of people will say flag burners should leave the country. I could just as easily say the people who are against freedom of speech should leave the country (but I won't). If it's a choice between freedom of speech and a piece of cloth, freedom of speech must win out.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

It's meant to be offensive, but who gives a shit? It's cloth. Make a fucking new one. I get the ideas behind it, sure, but at the end of the day, as long as it's not used to perpetuate violence or bigotry or any sort of ism geared towards actual hate to incite discrimination, I'm not upset and sure as shit not going to lose sleep over it.

[TheChatWanderer]

It's offensive it doesn't matter if it's a country flag a gang flag or a gay flag you're burning someone's colors it's not the equivalent of burning someone's home but it shows lack of respect. Like it's hurtful and to burn anything in the name of hate instead of trying to keep warm you're just wasting good fabric and fire, That should be a crime within it's self.

[YHL6965]

A flag represents a country and all its values it stands for. By burning a flag, you spit on the country, on its history, on values like freedom of speech, gender equality that many people fought and died for, on a system that provides education and safety for you and your children.

[CubsterShura]

It is an utterly disrespectful and offensive act. Flags are fabrics with small mass that carry a lot of weight. A flag is a flag for a reason.

[este1864]

It is offensive. But that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

[curiousnorway]

Agree.

[Whatthefluff]

It’s definitely offensive. The flag represents the country, and citizens should take it to heart if they care at all.

[Paris13]

Burn Away Today if you are Not some Hot... Patriot, but instead, An Idiot. xx

[ChronicThinker]

I think it offends people because we associate flags with symbolism and being a patriot. For me it would depend on why they were burning the flag.