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Why are so many women on here anti-feminist? (Page 2)
Anonymous
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I think it is both - I think it is not necessary and I think it's what we teach our young that the male sex is inferior and the female sex is superior.
1st point - It is not necessary. Hate to break it to all you feminists unless you were adults around the 1960s, and give a or take a decade or so, but you really won't achieve much in the way of equality because that job was done for you,
I was born in 1973 in Southern California, USA. The generation before me broke through the ceilings for me. They did the hard work. They took the ridicule and vindictiveness of "moral" people to give me a choice between family or a career.
I never had to do any work to have my work judged on my merit and not as a woman. On my merit alone, I could succeed. On my merit alone, I could be judged. The generation before me - they gave that to me. That was a feminist!
2nd Point - Feminists today are a joke. You are too busy being offended to realize you are obsolete, at least here in the USA.
The generation before me gave you everything you ever needed and what have you done with that? You have squandered it away by trying to compete for who can be the most offend or the greater victim and all the while denigrating men to feel better about yourselves. /smh
Wow; I am truly proud. Women today are so empowered. Girl power! *rollseyes
Well. A) this website is garbage.
B) I think feminists get a bad rep cuz a lot of people associate it with "feminazi"
Ie. Aggressive bra burning screaming etc.
Which is entirely wrong, but that's the notion society provides (which in itself is a huge feminist problem), and many women are socialized to be "cool" or "one of the guys" and too often media pit women against each other or create manic pixie dream girls which just encourages the idea.
I also find that people don't understand what feminism is, and most men (cis het white) don't even notice it. Even with the best intentions many men don't realize the things that plague women too often exist (see catcalling, underrepresentation, mansplaining, etc). And then unfortunately some men are so entitled that they get angry if you point this out and proceed to go on a rant about how discriminatory and unfair it is to label them (of course unlike how women get called crazy, bitchy, slut, gold digger, feminazi, etc.) This has happened I have the receipts to prove it LOL
The thing is that when we say feminism, it means more like equalism, because at the end of the day it's about balancing the disparities between everyone, and a lot of people don't realize that this is also advantageous to men (ex. Paternity leave, custody battles, getting that stick out of their ass, etc)
https://www girlsaskguys com/social-relationships/a64387-a-feminist-can-t-truly-claim-to-be-fighting-for-equality
First of all, equality and not being racist is furthest from where feminism is at right now... the egalitarian equality stuff has been hijacked and that dictionary definition isn't reflecting that just yet. It has become about whining about ANY and EVERYTHING whether real or imagined.
As for why most women don't buy into this anti-male/anti-white culture... they simply are not sexist and racist, which is a requirement to actually be the modern feminist. They don't just eat up ideas like a lack of employment opportunities because they can identify that, women, are making choices for themselves and simply choose not to work in certain sectors... equality of opportunity therefore isn't going to equal equal outcomes, which is the biggest concept modern feminists can't wrap their heads around.
Also a total lack of engagement. The things I've just said won't be disproved for instance, just attacked. When I lend a ear and get told all about the goals of radical feminism, I get ghosted when I make the comparison to MGTOW... not before being told MGTOW's are the worst first, of course.
It's become "boys drule and girls rule" politics... childish and petty more often than not. Like flat-earthers and bible pushers of the past, they push their agendas as fact despite reality... then cry when the majority doesn't follow along. So they run back to their echo chambers on tumblr, twitter, and facebook to soak in their confirmation bias... then come back as an anonymous asker to argue their empty points.
I don't think you can live in a society that has sexist and racist social structures and just get away with saying that you're not sexist and racist. That's not gonna make the problem go away, it just shows that those people are fortunate enough not to have to directly deal with the problems yet
... and I think the ones that are the most sexist and the most racist are those that are hyper-focused on it and finger pointing as much as possible because of their fear of being the racist ones.
All of us 'other' people despite our genders and races simply. Don't. Care. Basically they are the ones stirring up $h! t all the time... nobody else.
@D_Bone_Steak Nah, I think what made them hyper-sensitive is things like 400 years of slavery with no reparations and no real effort to help out black people, and centuries of oppression against women that haven't been fully dealt with in the U. S. either. The only reason you wouldn't care about discrimination is that you're not experiencing it. lol
@Asker lol is right, you just made the POC female that read that over my shoulder laugh very hard... and lots. She also called you an idiot, but I'll try to take you more serious... try.
Firstly there's no right I have that you don't... but guess what, I can name some when that question if flipped. Secondly, what's the point of overcoming any past oppressions if it's going to be used as an excuse to oppress those you feel slighted by in the past? 2 wrongs won't make a right... or you can be a bigot and join in on oppressing the currently oppressed... the the oppressed of Christmas past. lolz.
As for the update... it's anti-white men. Figured your buddies on tumblr would've let you know that already, but I'd pose the question as how is it NOT anti-men?
Lastly, I want to double down on the pathetic oppressions being why we don't take feminism seriously... the latest I've seen is about the oppressed FTF transgenders... that's female to female transition. People can't help facepalming.
Because overcoming past oppression doesn't equal oppressing others. You need to get rid of your entitlement. If there is inequality in society, it means on groups has something that didn't belong to them to begin with. You stole it from other people. Wanna make it equal? Give it back.
Your friend can laugh. My friends and I know what we're marching for.
@Asker I think your last response is the best answer to your original question. The smugness in reciting memorized and incorrect false 'factoids' is a good part of it. More than equal rights isn't oppressing other, my entitlement (what entitlement? Same as yours and theirs.), I stole nothing from nobody... ever, and the list goes on with everything you can recite from your cult.
The pretentiousness of it all while sounding like a complete air-head valley girl and not even realizing it... Do you know what your marching for?
... Because the last march I seen was called a slut walk, and they were wearing pussy hats and putting on hijabs while reciting things for Sharia law. Your 'movement' are nothing more than useful idiots... All of it is just tactics to collectivise, get more immigrants, and divide and conquer for those democratic votes. Your 'movement' won't matter much once you're no longer useful to them. Poof... Soros and Clinton money gone.
If my movement brings in more immigrants who are in need because my country fucked up the rest of the world, then that's perfect for me.
Also, Valley Girl, far from it. I grew up in a rural area with conservative social structures. I'm the first woman in my family to make it to university, mainly because I worked my ass off in random jobs since I was 15, while I saw male friends and my brother get their way payed through uni.
The last march I've been at was raising awareness for native women who are the first to get in contact with polluted water due to breaches in pipelines, as much of the traditional cleaning, food preparation and fishing activities fall on women, children, and elderly. Maybe you just go to the wrong places.
You either understand what I'm saying or you don't... you asked a question, you got an answer... whether you liked the answer or not is not my concern. You picked best answers already... I see confirmation bias and expected that was the purpose...
But...
Having asked the question at all means you do recognize there is the existence of these so called anti-feminists. What I'd like to point out the most is nobody disagrees with the dictionary definition of a feminist... just notice we all support that. These anti-feminists by dictionary definition already are feminists, but there's something about the expanded, 3rd wave, feminist, collective, identity politics type of feminists that "triggers" so many to become what you'd call "anti-feminist." It even triggers normies lately... and your movement is shrinking for reasons... ignorance to any faulty cracks in one's ship will sink it eventually... so too with any movement.
in my opinion... they seem as cringey as possible on purpose. Those of us not indoctrinated by communist professors at a university roll our eyes at your petty issues and dreams of "real communism" despite it already never working... and laugh at the debts incurred to earn degrees in race/gender issues or arts degrees... that will earn less money than a 6 month plumber trade course over time... baristas anyone? Fast food? We see a democratic party that needs to promise free shit in order to get some votes... welfare, education, health care... free... we promise. lol sure. Yes migrate to us, we'll give you section 8 an free stuff... but you got to vote for us. You'll be in debt in no time as well... and your men will fill our prisons to make jobs for prison keepers.
But that's what I see if your movement gets its way... what do you see, other than eliminating white people? What else do you consider to be so great about your movement?
@D_Bone_Steak I understand your opinion, but I disagree. You're right, I am biased, that doesn't mean I'm unwilling to engage with other perspectives though. But when I see misconceptions, I will try to clarify. For me feminism isn't the commercialized "male tears" cups and pussy hats and white women who went to a protest once in their life and now use the label, it's the women who have been actively working under the label for years, lobbying for equal rights, standing in courts for equal rights and doing the organizational work. I think it's unfortunate that work gets covered up by companies trying to make money by adapting cheap versions of it.
I'm not talking about women who are secretly feminist but don't use the label though, when I say anti-feminist. I mean the women on this sight who outright seem to work against the ideas. I've seen a lot of posts from women that are just downright misogynist on here, which surprises me.
D_Bone_Steak In terms of employment, that's an interesting one. Did you know that in the 60's the Trilateral commission had a report on education, where they found that people were getting too educated. The general population started realizing that they could question the norms, that discrimination shouldn't be the norm. So the committee, started by Rockefeller, met up and they wrote a report on education. The conclusion was basically that job expectations for highly educated people need to be lowered in order to keep the benefits for the upper class. And within 5 years many major positions in the US government were filled by people in that commission.
So when highly educated people cannot get jobs, I think something is wrong with society. When people have to go into debt to receive an education, that's messed up. Education is free in all countries with a low Gini (inequality) coefficient. The Gini in the U. S. is ridiculously high for a developed country.
Hmmm, I have yet to see any women being downright misogynistic here. Inequality in the education does exist, and in its current state (https://nces. ed. gov/fastfacts/display. asp? id=372), I think it’s arguable that white males are being oppressed. But instead of focusing on that, I’d love to take a quick gander at these developed countries as compared to undeveloped countries. …I notice something, and it has to do with something that does happen to correlate to race, but a whole lot to do with whether you’re going to pass STEM classes or not as compared to classes where you simply have to agree with the teacher or be able to parrot memorized factoids (gender studies anyone?)…. I’m getting at IQ and other correlating behavioral differences (i. e. violent behavior; deficient in abstract thinking). Meritocracy in those societies has created differences…not the societies themselves.
…oh and also, which societies did away with slavery and subjugation of women and which societies STILL HAVE SLAVERY AND WOMEN UNDER THE REAL PATRIARCHY? Not the one that allowed you to go to school at all, that’s for sure.
But this brings me to the conflict these identity groups have with the general public. We have groups of young adults (and professors of non-STEM courses) saying, “listen, before I was born something happened, and this now gives me justification to get something without earning it.” Basically a push to do away with meritocracy…but instead, SEEKS POWER OVER MERIT (based on certain innate qualities). This is the crux between SJW’s and the wider liberal culture.
SEEKS POWER OVER MERIT. Take the most overused slur of SJW’s and their version of what it is…NAZI’s. They (SJW’s) don’t think anything different. They just disagree on the race and gender of the people that should have power. That’s it. They don’t believe it should be earned, they believe it’s something that should be gifted to them based on their innate qualities.
... and this is what a non-indoctrinated individual sees and why they oppose the identity politics that feminism got sucked into. You are biased, but understand I have you much better answers to your original question when I could of just agreed with you as well.
I'm biased by virtue of being a woman who has dealt with gendered discrimination in my work place and private life.
Thanks for pointing out that there is still slavery in the world. It's a good point and one that shows why we need gender, race and development studies, which all look at the root causes of such problems such as slavery on fisher boats of the coast of Thailand, or absurd wages for women in clothing factories in most of South Asia, or factories in China installing nets under their windows to prevent people jumping out of the windows from actually dying.
Why do you think those conditions exist? It's easy. Structural adjustment lending programs that increase debt of those countries to developed countries, consumerism in the West, the resource course, and centuries of exploitation.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with race, because all differences in gender and race in education usually fall away when you control for socioeconomic factors.
And that's the problem. In the U. S. a large percentage of all wealth is inherited. Meritocracy only works if everyone actually starts with a clean slate. Imagine playing monopoly, except you start with nothing while other people in the game already have entire streets with houses and hotels. You wouldn't be cool with playing like that.
That's what it's like for a lot of people in the U. S.. There is limited captial and it is mostly owned by older, white men. It's true that it's not as easy for young men anymore to accumulate as much wealth as old white men did, because we are now supporting other players to get in the field and helping them buy streets and houses too, so that some of the wealth actually gets distributed. But losing privilege does not make you disadvantaged. It levels the playing field.
Also FYI, I did my undergrad and Masters in STEM. That doesn't mean I didn't try to expose myself to humanities courses to broaden my scope.
So your answer to everything is to take the money from straight white men and give it to others?
My degree was in accounting... I went ahead and paid for physical training and computer science degrees since my background in military plus the prerequisites in nutrition covered the classes needed for an AS for those. Having done the college scam... it's bullshit, and I've learned more from youtube. At least more productive information.
Your reasoning skills makes that clear here... and you have a masters in I don't know... anything that happens to be STEM, like my accounting degree. You first proved your place inside you pseudo Nazi regime as a female that's dealt with discrimination. Instead of Jews... your enemy is white men... then you have no idea of why I brought the subject of race up (yeah right). Then you state a case that an economist would laugh at and that even a High School dropout can point out is faulty.
You simply don't see your own logic and how wrong it is because it won't affect you. How about I purpose that women and colored people take up too much money, we should take it and spread it amongst white people. Not due to merit, but just because they're white.
Think about that, and why your movement looks like a bunch of Nazi dorks with your mission statements. The same exact "final solution" only with the tables turned against your gender and other races is exactly what a Nazi was...
... and again I'd like to point out that the best answer to your original question is exactly what you're saying... other than sycophants, nobody agrees with you. There's reasons for that. There's reasons your kind have to turn off their comments on their youtube videos and we just let it roll... plus our likes to dislikes ratio is waaaay different. Popular consensus doesn't agree with you... and wouldn't even if they were all colored and female. Simple reasoning skills.
Just watch some youtube videos of "feminist rekt" or something of the like. The same exact arguments you're trying to make but under the light of what it is... ridiculous. Just try it... the answer to your original question becomes so clear as it is to the majority of people. It's just funny how you college indoctrinated are the only ones to not get it... or even see the humor in how... how it is.
Check out Sandman for some MGTOW perspective, or Sargon of Akkad for some political... the answers to your original question are out there and they don't even have their comments turned off like the content you'd direct me to... and I'm sure about that.
Just take the red pill once, see how it is.
I will concede this though... flip on some cable television... they all seem to agree with you.
Are they even real people though. I'm from Hollywood... met some people. They themselves don't support most of the trash they support in front of a camera. They voted for Trump in private and beg for Hillary in public. It's just is what it is.
Yes, you do seem like someone who gets most of his education from youtube videos.
It's pretty fucked up to compare women's rights protestors to Nazis when there are so many Jewish women in the movement and Jewish women who helped found the movement, just like women of color.
Also I didn't say straight white men. Those are your words. Leveling the playing field doesn't have anything to do with taking something away from someone. If you actually studied anything related to economics, it shouldn't be hard for you to understand that meritocracy is impossible in a place where large percentages of wealth are kept by minorities who inherit it.
It's really not that hard to see once you read some econ books that look beyond the basic numbers. I'd recommend Ha-Joon Chang for a start. He's an amazing forward thinking economist who is revolutionizing the development field.
I don't need a youtube channel, I attend conferences where I can educated discussions with all kinds of people.
Yeah and its messed up to call gay jewish men nazis too... but your side of things still does it and feels good in their eco chamber. Just another good answer to your original question.
Milo if you even wondered
I've never called anyone Nazi, unless they literally are Nazis. Just because some people say fucked up shit doesn't make it the voice of a movement. There's so many different subgroups in Feminism.
Also I don't pretend to know the answers to equality and economic stability. People much smarter than me have worked on that for decades and not found an appropriate solution. I just know that our system isn't working for many people and that we should not be satisfied with such a flawed system and be open to alternatives that can provide for anyone.
My bet for equality is on technology, as long as it is open access and not monopolized by some people who already own everything.
Exceptions to the rule don't change the rule of thumb, and so too is using yourself as an example of the contrary, a 'no true Scotsman' argument. What I'm saying isn't meant to be suppositions on some kind on a personal level... but it's what the noise sounds like outside of the ecochamber. The real answers to your original question.
Take the democratic party for instance. Statistically speaking they already have all the minority votes they're going to get secured. But the pushing of 'white privilege' and anti-white politics is severely severing the ties of whom the majority was that was voting their way. To any outsider it's all pretty logical... they shame the majority of their voters and call them deplorable... yeah, states swung the other way. But face to face, me saying such a concept will literally make them shake emotionally due to the sheer gall of my wrong think... yet outside the bubble, popular consensus exists. They don't agree with everyone that will agree alone.
Equality and economic stability... I'd say feminists tend to infantilize other groups and themselves too readily in search of special treatment. It kind of get's mind numbing hearing arguments over and over again stating that white people are just so much better than other people and need to be disadvantaged to give 'the other people' a chance... and imagine hearing this argument from someone you know just can't wait to tell you that YOU'RE THE RACIST ONE. It's kind of like the definition of racism in the dictionary is different for them... like judging based on race.
I just think the majority don't buy the equal outcome over equal opportunity as a fair system to go by. Look at school systems lowering standards so even the dumb people pass... it doesn't work. Life is not the special olympics where everyone's a winner. I also think the majority don't buy into this "they're so oppressed" nonsense either.
Reverse racism is just a silly concept. As long as actual racism exists and people of color are measurably disadvantaged in society, providing them with more opportunities is not racist. It's the opposite. What people, especially in the U. S. don't understand is that socioeconomic issues and racism are related. No one is saying that because you're white or a man, you can't have a tough time. But, statistically speaking, a black woman will face the same issues plus racial hurdles. Economically disadvantaged white people and people of color have the same agenda, just as intersectional feminists do. Which is to split up limited resources and give everyone access, not just the rich white men who are currently in power.
Also many liberals don't vote for the democrats because the democrats are bought, just like the republicans, and don't reflect actual liberal values on an international policy or economic basis. Sanders was the only one so far who even got close to actual liberal values.
Racism is just judgement based on race. The idea of reverse racism gives off the idea that it's a one way street, or one can't be racist while only the other can. Split up resources? How about start earning some first... it's the handout mentality that's made anyone so dependent on big daddy government at all to begin with.
Sanders would've won... Clinton stole that election. He's also a communist at heart so, we would've been going the route of socialism. Democratic socialism works, but only if we closed off our borders and kept our jobs at home without the taxation loopholes. Germany, France, and Sweden will and already are great examples of that. Here in the U. S. Trump started patching up our socialized programs (welfare) and look at them leaving for Canada... where the free handouts exist... just so long as you keep voting for who's gonna give you that free stuff.
You don't need to close your borders for that. None of the countries you mentioned do.
The idea of reverse racism is that someone can call a white person a cracker and it won't have an impact on their life, because white people have privileged in society that other people don't have. Meanwhile, if you call a person of another race, whose current standing isn't equal yet a slur, it does affect their position in society. (Slurs being the most minimal example) But I'm sure you know that, you just don't agree with it, which is fine, that's your opinion.
About earning resources. The issue is that money makes money in the current society. If you start rich, you have to be pretty stupid and incompetent to not become richer. If you start poor, your chances of becoming rich are minimal. Hence, you need to even the playing ground a bit more, either by taxing the rich, or by giving more handouts to the poor.
That was my point, none of them do, now they're suffering because of it. If you really want hard answers as to how all this stuff ties together (includes answers to your original question) check out this link and give it a liston.
https://youtu.be/ezgH8Y1URmA
If you need more sources, I've got plenty... from left to right...
If you have your mind made up on how the world is, and don't need a wider perspective, by all means... just keep wondering why the majority is done with all the ALT-leftist identity stuff... like feminism.
As for me I'm going to watch this 'The Left Uses "Racism" To Control Black Voters' video and cook some dinner.
I studied international development studies as my second major, I'm more than aware of the situation and the surrounding theories. The point is, if you close the door to people who are fleeing, while at the same time continuing to oppress them through consumerism that leads to bad labor practices, through drone strikes, through continuous, illegal wars, through inflammatory public officials, through providing enemies with weapons and tanks, and so on, it's not gonna stop. As long as there is inequality in the world, there will be people fighting you for the things you took. The only thing that will stop that is empathy and equality.
Europe has done the right thing to leave the borders open. Closing them would increase violence. Attackers aren't usually refugees, but people who lived here for decades. They are sick people, but their actions shouldn't lead us to the decision of sentencing millions in need to death.
Things that affect women disproportionately, doesn't mean that a woman's rights is being infringed, and this culture of group-culpability, is very dangerous. There are stories of women who overcome obstacles, and then there are narratives of women that use statistics and the idea that everything is the effect of men. Everything is the effect of individual decisions and the only people taking responsibility for their own decisions are feminists.
Your own discourse is bait and switch. You used the language of equality and then conflate it with equity.
I'm an intellectual and an author without a manuscript at the moment, I live in South Africa which is a country that is being economically ravaged by corrupt ideologues who use equity to steal resources and blame structural injustice for their own counter-productive tactics. Feminism cannot solve any gender gaps, they can only force industries to implement unfair processes to make artificial transformation that stunts the economy as a whole, and which breeds resentment the more that these superficial standards are applied to people in the work force, to help promote the appearances of equity. Google itself is a recent example of where this discourse leads.. Its a kind of totalitarian nihilism if you can buy into what Google is doing, just to serve 'equity' between the genders.
I haven't been blaming it on men, I've said that there are existing social power structures. It's not that men just decided to have those, they were built over decades and centuries. There are a lot of male feminists who don't see it as anti-male, but as empowerment of a historically disadvantaged group. I personally see feminism as a form of equity that can lead to equality, once we all do have the same status in society.
It won't ever happen that way.. If you read some of other opinions on similar topics, and the exchange on my own question on this topic.. There are a lot of things you brought up covered. But no group of people is entitled to equity, that is the opposite of equality, to only see people as representatives of a faction through a statistical analysis of reality: this is the furthest you get to denying equality, by dictating it onto existence by such an artificial process, you will create so much unequal treatment of individuals, it will create a counter culture that promotes corrective sexism, because your kind of prescription is at its core sexist, just because it labels itself as corrective sexism, is like trying to eat your cake before you've even thought about having it.
Cont. You can't ignore the actual underlying reasons why things aren't equal in the numbers, here's a hint, its not because of sexism in our culture, it's because in general women make different decisions to men, and trying to change society to change what people 'generally' choose to do, just to make the statistics pretty, will only create an abyss, not equality.
" like wage inequality"
It doesn't exist. It is a figment of career and personal choices and differences in ambition.
"lack of employment opportunities within many sectors"
Name one. There are sectors where there are no women: NFL players, for example. But I have never known a woman to beat a man at tryouts for it. They have the opportunity, they just aren't good enough. Keep in mind that nearly all advancements in civilization were made by men.
"objectification"
Women choose to objectify themselves. No one is holding a gun to the head of a woman if she doesn't pose for Playboy's (traditional) centerfold or put on a Hooters outfit. A lot of women like it.
"harassment at the workplace"
That is the fault of women who move from innuendos to bed, not the men who suggest it.
"childcare fall on women despite them being full-time workers"
Having children is a choice. Working full time is a choice. Don't blame men for the choices women make.
"we still don't have equal political"
Actually, there is MORE than equal political representation. More women vote than men. Women could vote to put a woman in nearly every political office in the nation without the vote of any man. They choose to vote for men instead.
"media representation"
Seems to me that most of the people I see in the media are blonde women. Dana Perino was the last one I saw on TV.
"women have been giving up opportunities in the entertainment industry for decades"
Women are not "giving up opportunities" if some other woman takes that opportunity. The casting couch has been around for 3,000 years, it is written about in ancient Greece. Like most women, actresses, singers, and models nearly all trade sex for money or fame. That is their choice. If one decides not to, then another woman will.
The enemy of radical feminists isn't men, it is women who don't subscribe to their radical feminism.
There's nuanced angles and counter points to everything you just said and they're publicly available on the internet, so I'm sure you've come across them and just chose to ignore them. Not worth my time.
Here is the bottom line, which is not nuanced:
The enemy of radical feminists isn't men, it is women who don't subscribe to their radical feminism.
I'm not talking about radical feminism, I'm talking about feminism.
Women are ALREADY equal. Don't confuse choices with inequality.
don't confuse your imagination with reality
No, I've been at this life thing about twice as long as you have. I know better.
Apparently you haven't used that time to learn a lot.
You really don't understand your own movement. The problem has come from what feminist did to their own membership. The feminist movement by it own decision tried to separate feminism from feminist. Groups like NOW had gone out of their way to make causes strictly 'us against them" issues. It was 'down with men' and the memberships went to burning bras, holding those breasts that we aren't suppose to notice" to proving that they can wear business suits. To be a full fledged member you had to have a beef with men' it seemed. Women like my wife who, raised a family, dressed attractively and did not degrade the other choices for women were not welcomed members. My wife is very forward thinking and always for equal benefits, pay and etc. BUt not for just having ovaries. She earned it. But she also continued to value things that the movement berated or labeled you less than a real women. Feminist as recently as the last general election told the world that no real woman could be a republican. Real Feminist are ordinary women who work and gain on their own merits and not because they have beaten down some man. You need to expand your knowledge of the early years and separate race from sex.
I don't think that's true though, I, among other reasons, did not vote for Clinton because I'm a feminist and Clinton got a bunch of old-school feminists up there to tell young women that voting Sanders is against out own gender and so one. In the feminist circles that I'm in, that didn't go down well at all. We're all for supporting women, no matter what their choices are. I find it weird that women vote for Trump, because he's really anti-woman, but the election didn't really offer many alternatives, now did it.
I think what's needed is not to separate issues, but to recognise that feminism, anti-racism, climate change movements, and so on are all connected.
I'm an ordinary woman who works hard and is doing well in my career, but I recognise that meritocracy isn't real, and that we all benefit from certain structures in our society. No matter how hard I work, what got me where I am was getting the right opportunities at the right time. Someone else could be here just as well.
I love this question as its really important one. I used to be supportive of feminism. Its message today misses the real problems. how it looks today. many women are realising that now. Today its only about how men are some walking monsters that deserve to be attacked and have to smile and accepts it as its a guy and sure his life is easy.
My other point is feminisim prohibit men from bullying women harrasing them but women can't be held accountable if they are the aggressor including if they hurt other women. I have seen the ordeal my girlfriend went through she had random girls bullying her on the street. if it was a guy he would be in jail. Feminism nowadays doesn't protect all women just aggressive women. indirect aggression is high among females. Many females including my girlfriend quit thier jobs because of a passive aggressive female coworker and feminism doesn't work on fixing that.
My girlfriend told me now when she look at the glass celieng she sees another woman standing in the face of her success and happiness. Not a man. You would see this kind of women attending girls power events while at the same time backstabbing and bitching about another womam over her weight
I was supporting feminisim but not anymore
I'm sorry that happened to your girlfriend! I would describe that behaviour as internalized misogyny, which can happen when women are constantly told or shown that they are less than men, that they need to be in competition with each other to please men, and so on. It's really tragic and leads to so much suffering. In a lot of countries with misogynyst cultures, it's older women who uphold the traditions, not men. I personally believe that being aware of that, uplifting women to a degree where there is not scarcity mentality, could help with that.
I also believe that there shouldn't be discrimination in the law systems. There are actually a lot of arguments in radical theory that black men are more discriminated against than women in general in the criminal justice system. And I think that's an important issue to address, but I don't think it eradicates the need to talk about other systemic issues for women in general.
The real problem with third-wave feminism is its Borg-like hive mentality: any person who rejects or at least challenges the feminist narrative is labelled a sexist--men are considered the scum of the Earth and the source of all the world's ills, and women are considered the equivalent of "Uncle Toms" when they refuse to tow the line. There is no "us", there is "people who get it" and "everyone else".
A consequence of the feminist "everything is sexist, racist and homophobic" mantra is that EVERYTHING is problematic. If you can't find an excuse to label something problematic, make something up about how it negatively affects entire members of the population (even if it actually doesn't, but facts are sexist and racist) and then use that as a battering ram to complain about it. Anyone remember the "air conditioning is sexist" (http://www. telegraph. co. uk/women/womens-life/11760417/Air-conditioning-in-your-office-is-sexist.-True-story. html)? This is level of "problematic" we're dealing with. Instead of dealing with actual oppression, like women in the Middle East needing male escorts just to go to the mall or needing where Hijabs for fear of being stoned to death (which has now somehow been turned into a feminist symbol of female empowerment... because of course it did), feminists instead choose to whine about how the Boy Scouts lacks of gender diversity or why there aren't more female game developers. You know, asking the tough questions.
They can do always pull the classic "but the dictionary definition of feminism says..." and hide behind that like a shield, as if the dictionary definition still has any bearing on feminism nowadays. Or they could simply say "why is X still a problem, it's [current year]?" Pick your poison.
the simple fact from my experience is that feminism from my interactions with
a. doesn't really cover those issues
b. has very negative conotationa around it
for my part I have known both genuine feminists, as well as what I refer to as extreme feminists (you know who you are)
genuine feminists like my sister do in fact care about these issues (as do I ) and try to advocate for them. the problem is that these issues (at least in my area) don't get a lot of exposure. so I do beleive there could be more done about it. as to the second problem again most people know of to whom I refer. feminist who are extremely vocal about anti men agendas, and who are more focused on shaming us, for very simple things or things beyond our control ( i. e. just having the audacity to been born an man , or having the unmitigated gaul to pay you a compliment on the street). these feminists unfortunately tend to be far more vocal, attract the wrong kind of attention, and generally put a more negative spin on the term. therefore making more difficult for less discerning people to want to have a conversation with women just because of a miss used or misappropriated title, that has very little to do with feminism or it's equality goals.
because of the way certain members of the feminist movement actually attack men about every little perceived slight or the way certain members try to make individual men accountable for the actions of all men even if we agree with you or have no sway over the situation to which your refering. prime example street harassment, I understand completely how taxing, stressful, or annoying being constantly hit on is. however here is the differenece between actual street harassment, and what is being labeled as street harassment
1. actually harassment ( and before you ask me yes i have seen this happen ) " hey yo bitch give me your number"
"no"
"stab"
2. what I have been persecuted for by self proclaimed feminists (again actually happened) " goods afternoon you have beautiful eyes ( holds the door open. while saying this)"
"what you think cuz I'm a woman i need you to open the door"
that kind of thing
Girls on this website are 95% uneducated, who haven't been to a proper work environment where sexual harassment from and to both genders occur, and stronger (physically) or powerful (position-wise) people, women or men, feel that they have every right to abuse any employee.
Moreover, most girls again I observed over here have basically no goals in life to be somewhere. Most are high school kids, there are very few college graduate women who go their own way and who are stronger. So these high school kids or women, who consider themselves traditional by staying at home in 2017 to serve their "family and husband" , have not been to (probably) a competitive work or school environment where jokes are made because you are women like you cannot succeed the same things, or jokes are towards minorities, physically weaker men (because physical strength is considered to be more masculine)..
It is concerning to me that these people have a say on feminism negatively when they don't even feel the need to read the difference between feminazism and feminism. But they rather read things from the media, things from feminazis, or people who abuse feminism for their own agenda. For example, useless Lena Dunham, who is a child abuser, and a defender of rape, uses feminism as a shield; and so everyone thinks it is feminism.
Ignoring uneducated women on this website, who have never experienced inequality, and ignoring feminazi women on this website who claim men never experience abuse problems (because they do) to advance their own agenda, and ignoring the men who are insecure about themselves in life and blame everything on feminism, feminism would work.
Yet, because of all these Lena Dunham style people, feminism no longer benefits women in the Western world. Yet, it is desperately needed in many developing countries.
Its the naturally hypergamic woman that are panicking while crying (where are all the good men?). MGTOW is something that scares the shit out of feminists not only because it expose the bigotry but also that feminism is built on top of pure hatred and envy of men.
Now that MGTOW is rising exponentially ( check google trends), they kind of started to panic seeing that they will hit the wall pretty soon ( normally right after 30 years) and realize that they will probably die alone with cats as men dont need them anymore ( artificial wombs and realistic sexbots are here already).
Do you know what a feminist and a dogshit have in common? The older they get the easier is to pick them up.
Smart men dont commit these days ( its suicide for a man these days) , they fuck the shit out of women and and throw her out as soon as he's done. And yes they can play mind games with woman promising them the sky to get in the pants. Not right to do so you say? Woman has been doing shitest and midgames forever with good men destroying them in the process, its naturally right that we men return the favor now that feminism has lowered the price of puss so much !
Meanwhile I am investing a lot right now into cat/dog food and accessory industry. Its a booming industry with all these cat ladies around :)
While there isn't anything inherently wrong with feminism. It came and served its purpose well in the past, but like with all good things, there will always be a group of people that will take over and capitalize on the movement. They will use dated rhetoric that once made the movement so effective to persuade well-meaning young women into believing they are still undervalued in an allegedly male-driven society. They team up with other social groups in order to maintain a state of relevancy.
If you've noticed, feminists (as well as other social groups) tend to overuse the word "historically" to draw attention solely on sins committed in the past in order to justify their cause, none of which applies to our much improved society of today. We don't know if this is either because of sheer ignorance or simply an effort to hit men back for more mundane reasons.
The reality is: It's been poisoned. If you ask me, it looks more like a group of people who simply use their victim status to feel validated, or to make a living off of the unfortunate young women and "allies" who merely want to be a part of something just.
I think that there are real issues faced by both women and men in society to a larger extent than the other. I'd like to see things improved in those areas.
I am not convinced that women are a disadvantaged class vis-à-vis men, though they DO have real disadvantages in some areas, in other areas men have very large disadvantages.
While in some areas I applaud the work of feminists, in others, I think they are counterproductive. I think they mis-diagnose root causes of some problems to fit with their (flawed) world view and may actually push for changes that make things worse. I also think some of them are active barriers to dealing with the problems men face (and many of the problems women face are the flip side of a problem for men).
In saying this I'm speaking of feminiists in the west, a lot of the core goals of first wave feminism are not fully in place in some parts of the world.
So i'm very open to discussing things with feminists and working with them on some specific projects. In others I agree with their goals, but not at all the solution. And in some cases, not with the goals.
I agree with the sentiment behind your opinion. The thing I find interesting, is how men say women are only looking out for women. Part of me thinks: isn't that obvious? Feminism focuses on affecting change in areas where women are disadvantaged. Of course there are ways men are disadvantaged, but shouldn't men raise their own platform to fight for their inequalities as well?
I'm not suggesting it be men v women, but why are women responsible for affecting all the change?
@Gypsy_x I don't believe they are. However, I'd actually suggest that many of the most active feminists are either intentionally or accidentally hostile to improving things for men. Neutrality I'd accept more. #notallfeminists etc. Anyone I've seen actually working on men's issues gets pretty much branded a misogynist/MRA/whiner/tool of the patriarchy. The mere existence of most problems men face actively undercuts some of the belief structure many feminists have.
As an example, many women want to talk about female victims of sexual harassment. And many feminists will identify 'sexism' as the cause, and that if we deal with sexism, it will go away. So what happens when we want to talk about male victims of sexual harassment (which in, for instance, the entertainment industry, there are many). Some say 'go talk about that elsewhere'. But there's never an okay time to talk about male victims. Beyond that, the male victims undercut the 'sexism is the cause' narrative.
The funny thing is, I think that male are the inhibitors of progress in those situations. For example, many feminists are against toxic masculinity, and encourage men to speak up and express themselves. But men feel pressured to "man up" and not be a "pussy". I mean, read opinions from men on here and they talk about alpha males, etc. So the feminists who want men to open up about sexual assault, depression, etc are then criticised for feminising men.
@Gypsy_x I would actually say -most- feminists are accidentally contributing to toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity has gotten -worse- not better over my lifetime. Traditional masculinity had toxic elements. Rather than clean it up I would say most feminists have attempted to eliminate masculinity altogether. Some boys reject that. Others accept it till they hit their daily years and suddenly crash and burn. Eventually they turn to the only masculinity around - which nowadays is an even more toxic-jock-frat boy-pua mixture. And the reaction from most feminists is to clamp down more on masculinity. Toxic masculinity is most easily replaced by a healthy masculinity - not by nothing.
Another issue many feminists seem to struggle with is the extent to which sexual interaction shapes male behaviour. They seem convinced it’s a socialized desire, or that men can be raised to do the right thing even if it means sexless living. That’s doomed to failure.
When I say “feminists attempted to eliminate it” above I want to be clear I’m actually talking not just about militant feminists but parents and teachers as a group. It seemed like not a bad idea!! But it’s worked very poorly imho.
I guess the problem is that everyone has a different definition of what is appropriate masculinity, if that makes sense? And projecting their own beliefs onto others is wrong. Like, if a mum lets her son wear a dress, how does that affect anyone else, or your own way of parenting? Or if that other parent adheres to strict gender rules, that their right.
I guess it comes down to people believing some behaviours are damaging.
Sorry, I'm just ranting lol.
by the way happy to discuss all of this forever in as much detail as you like, but want to make clear again i don't view myself as an anti-feminist! The question was a little bit 'what are major critiques of feminism that would make someone not call themselves a feminist' and so I answered from that angle. I think their goals, for the most part, are just. I think their -model- of what the cause of problems are is flawed, and that leads to flawed methods, and sometimes damaging ones. And I think their influence in -some- areas (academia some parts of the justice system, some parts of the education system) has some negative impacts. Net negative? Certainly not since the beginning of the first wave! at present? maaaaaaybe.
@Gypsy_x No need to apologize.
A question I don't have good answers to is: to what extent should we let kids do whatever they want, versus steer them in directions that will make their lives... lets say easier? True for careers and education, but also true for their future dating life. There are lots of people out there, and it's possible to find someone who likes... well anything. But it's also true that adopting certain traits that are widely desired by partners. Is letting them go down a path where they will then have a very hard time finding partners doing them a disservice? I'm not sure. My gut is that we used to (before my time) have a system that steered many men and women into ways of being and roles that let them match up into a structure most liked. But some hated. So we through that out, and told young people 'figure everything out on your own'. Which doesn't work great. What's probably best is flexible guidance?
You don't come across as anti feminist at all. Its important to be critical. I certainly am.
I agree that the ideal way of parenting is debatable. I suppose you have to mix the two, and steer kids in the right way, but also be flexible enough to cater to their personality.
@Gypsy_x I think so. Flexible is hard though. Not just because “it’s hard to be flexible”. But because, for instance, there are a lot of things kids don’t want in the short run that you have to push them through. Most kids don’t want to do homework and study. But you need to encourage them (though in some cases at some stage recognize school isn’t the path). And that’s something that’s frankly less messy then what kind of man or woman they are and how they learn to interact sexually/romantically with the other sex.
Yeah exactly, its when it comes to the latter that shit gets complicated lol
As a person who is studying history profesonally, I can tell you that at the beggining it all started with the desire of the women all around the world to get equal rights with men-to vote, to work and get paid, to dress whatever they want ( the first lady was the french lady George Sand, who wore pants, smoke ciggaretes outside and she was going out without a man which was pretty scandalous back then in fhe 19, th century society). Later, in the 20s of the 20 th century, women got the emancipation they deserved, they were independent as never before. We celebrate 8th of march as the day of the women because on that date many women lost their lifes because of a protest where they were fighting for their rights. Now what we have is not a feminism, is some kind of weird because its almost everywhere, in the media, in songs, Hillary Clinton said that she will be the first woman president and used it as a manipulation, sorry for all her supporters, I think Trump is not good neither, but Hillaty used the this statement in a manipulative way... Feminism is something pure, the desire of brave women to be treated and respected along with men
Because feminism suppresses women it doesn't empower women. You discuss income inequality but the stats show other wise in fact I work in a place that is a majority women and they make the same as I do or even more. You say you don't have equal political representation but Congress and Senate have women in them. You say media doesn't represent women but several of the most powerful women in this country are women. Not because of feminism but because they worked for it. Does harassment happen yes it does happen. I agree with you there but when someone says you look nice today and that is labeled as sexual harassment then we've lost our humanity. Feminism is sexist in its nature anyways. What if we had masculism and started whining and complaining that there are to many women that are taking mens jobs or that every time a man holds a door for you because it's the right thing to do. Gets scrutinized for it. I'm not saying that I don't agree with you that yea the world does treat women like crap. Yes boys treat women like crap in this country I absolutely agree with that because unfortunatly. We have at least in the US have done everything to not teach boys to be men but to do something else. As far as women being assaulted women need to learn to defend themselves. This world is crazy and no amount of regulation will stop that. Equip yourselves and learn to defend yourselves. Every woman I have ever dated or been I always make sure they know how to defend themselves because I'm not always going to be there. So that is my opinion on it.
Your confusing term Feminism is not for Both Genders equality and same rights. Most people confuse it. Egalitarians for all human rights you can check the terms. Feminism is not. An the only places that women have very little rights is muslim countries. USA, Europe, most part of asia has all rights for girls to study, work as managers, make businesses. etc So what American feminist want more? You have already much more rights then men do. This days you will see more managers , directors females then men.. and many more benefits. Thanks to feminists soon all men be looked on as perverts because it seems like this its heading this direction. I lived in community with girls from western countries who were feminists the most terrible girls i ever meet.. Spoiled , don't want to do anything , can''t even carry a hand bag with out giving it to a guy.. terrible. And this cancer spreading all over the world. Soon you will make all guys to turn to MGTOW. i LOVE WOMEN , but its just getting out of hand
In Asia girls still get routinely killed or neglected for being girls. Some people abort their babies if they're girls. There's a noticeable majority of men in India and China because of this. In India, many women still don't get health care, nor do they get sufficient food, which leads to an increase of nutritional deficiencies in women. But sure, you seem to have a good idea of what women experience around the world, let alone the U. S.!
I can tell by what you wrote that you are VERY misinformed if you are referring to the USA. Women make the same as men when they have the same job title, but the women frequently are expected to do less work for the same pay.
Young women get hired the easiest by far in the USA, even when they aren't qualified for the job. Even in education when they don't have a credential and aren't allowed to be hired, they still are. I have personally witnessed that one.
In the entertainment industry, women that haven't earned their position just used sex for financial gains to quickly bypass the work a man would have needed to do to attain the same position. In the sex portion of the industry (porn, modeling, etc.) women are actually paid much more than men.
Women also get more free money for college than men do. There are multiple scholarships and programs exclusively for women. The only group that doesn't have exclusive benefits in the USA is White straight men.
Feminism doesn't do anything to help men. When women have unfair advantages like I listed above, feminists never do anything to help men. They don't want equality at all. They just want preferential treatment.
Feminism is anti-men. A lot of your issues you stated affect men just as much as women if not more. Some are also straight up myths such as wage gap. I mean I can't find a job and from what I can tell from my peers in my field is most employers don't want men. The reasoning being because they want to appear more diverse, or in other words want more women employees. So mostly only women are getting hired now.
Childcare can fall upon a lot of women and yes it sucks but at least it's their choice. Men don't have parental rights like women. We can't choose to be a parent like women can. They can put the child up for adoption or have an abortion it the choose to, the father has no say. Men however can be forced to pay the mother money every month til the child is fully grown and they might not even be able to see that child. We men literally have no rights in this at all, women legally hold all the power. But poor women right.
I don't believe in feminism one bit. It is a horrible ideal that causes more damage then it fixes. I don't believe it is needed outside of 3rd world countries. And because you asked I have worked in a few different professional fields, all where it seemed women were favorited over men. I am also from Canada.
I personally do not feel we have unequality in the US anymore. The wage discrepancy is easily explained as women taking lower wage jobs then men do in general. For example, housekeeping pays less than being an attorney. Women, by and large, are more likely to be housekeeprs than they are to be attornies. It has nothing with being a woman, but everything with the jobs we choose.
The stuff in the entertainment industry hasn't just applied to women, there's been plenty of stories of men that have been treated that way too. And while I can't speak for every woman, I've never been harassed or objectified in the workplace. Or anyplace for that matter.
I'm all for equality, but the new feminist movement with women running around nude in ovary hats isn't about equality anymore. Its about man-shaming and making up stupid stuff that are complete non-issues.
Okay so like say the wage issue is because of the work women are choosing... Why are those jobs paying less?
@HeAintMe Whew! I was almost thinking you were trying to make a point there for a second!
@BellePepper those jobs are paying less becausr these jobs suck, or not hard as the jobs most men choose. That's literally that simple.
Because*.
@BellePepper It’s simple economics. There is a higher labor supply for these jobs than there are for jobs that men tend to pursue. Because of societal norms that should pass in time, men tend to choose higher skilled jobs because they are more willing to forgo spending time at home, whereas women are less likely. I think this will change eventually since women graduate college and grad school at a higher rate than men, but it will take time.
@nickyBBB Okay so like @Diskid used the example of housekeeping as job women tend to take. Have you ever worked as a housekeeper? Like not in your own home. But where you spend your whole day cleaning for someone else.
@idiotmanchild Why do you think that is that women "spend more time in the home" than men?
There's zero risk on your life, your brain doesn't work, that's nothing. Cleaning a house is literally nothing.
@BellePepper It has been illegal since the 60s to pay less for the same job.
The "wage gap" is an average of all women, versus an average of all men. That is not a fair ratio, because of different hours worked, job environments, etc.
When job position, years of experience, education, hours worked, etc are taken into account, the wage gap is not 77% for every dollar... it is closer to 95-105% for every dollar. With a margin of error to suggest rough equivalency.
You show me two people at the same company, doing the same job, with the same hours put in and same prerequisites for the job, who get the same quality and quantity of work done in the same period of time, and were hired the same day... you show me those two people, ok, with an measurable wage gap?
And I'll stand with you to fight that injustice. Because that is illegal.
It also is NOT a thing.
@ksoma Except we know it happens.
@BellePepper "then why are the jobs paying less?"
Because they are not as hard.
Men who make good money work longer hours than their female co-workers, more flexible hours, tend to take less vacation time, and do jobs that are harder or more dangerous.
Teachers are truly needed and valuable. And, arguably, underpaid. That said, which is a harder job?
Teaching 3rd graders, or building construction?
Which takes more work hours? Puts one in a more unstable work environment? Makes one work on their feet, outdoors, in all manner of weather? Which has a higher mortality rate? Which does more damage to the body due to repeated stresses, over a 20 year career?
A skilled plumber deserves more of a paycheck than a successful social worker. Etc.
And I've known female plumbers. Women who did construction. They got paid the same, and treated as part of a team.
And I've seen male nurses. They make what their female coworkers do.
It isn't a gendered issue.
@nickyBBB First of all tagging is available to you. Use it. Even @KSOMA knows how to tag people.
And no. It's not an easy job. It's HARD work. And there IS risk. You go into work and you're right away lifting mattresses and making beds in less than 5 minutes and vacuuming. And yeah. That's not hard at home. But when you're doing it for hours on end it gets hard fast.
And since you spend so little time in the rooms the bathroom chemicals are really caustic and dangerous. Plus there's all the bodily fluids you clean up. Do you *know* how many people like to get drunk and then pee all over a hotel room? And the housekeepers are the ones who clean up all that with latex gloves, carpet cleaner, and baking soda. That's it.
But the ladies in laundry get it too because people will just drop off their sheet and "forget" to tell you their kid peed all over them. So you stick your hand into the basket and get your hands all gross and wet.
That's not even thinking about the drugs.
@ksoma Do you have like a shorter version of this? Like yeah it's hypocritical but i'm tired :c
@BellePepper Google "shoe0nhead wage gap button" if you need a succinct TL;DR version.
@BellePepper, Oh wow, focusing on the fact that I didn't tag you in the second time. How mature for someone who doean't know how to make a point. What you described isn't a risk on your life. Yes, it is pretty hard, but in compare to work places that requier mostly an average men, it's nothing.
@BellePepper
Its called market value. Jobs in the market are better paid than jobs that are funded by taxes. It is really simple. Teachers, nurses and such which are fields that are mainly occupied by women.
This guy already explained it perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sGn6PdmIo
@BellePepper acutally I brought up housekeeping because I myself have worked housekeeping. Yes, it is hard work. That said there isn't risk. We had 30 minutes per room, not 5. If it was trashed, we could talk longer. The cleaning materials are not caustic, and we were told that if we found bodily fluids to not touch them and put a call in for head housekeeping to come down. I never had to do this in all my times of working there. I had one workplace injury, which was a slip and fall and could have happened anywhere. Ironically, housekeeping was one of the higher paying jobs I've had, mainly because of the guests that would tip. Should housekeepers be paid more, maybe as a base wage. But should they be paid as much as a construction worker, lawyer, or surgeon? No.
@Diskid I also worked in housekeeping. I'm glad that your experience was better than mine but talking with the ladies I worked with our situation was the norm.
No one is asking to be paid as much as a surgeon. *Obviously*
But you want to say "women's work" is easier than "men's work" and/or safer and it's just not true. Why are you immediately dismissing my experience and the experiences of my coworkers and telling us we didn't work hard and we didn't work in a risky environment?
@FakeName123 Bro. You KNOW I'm not going to watch your video. You've linked it before.
And I'm P sure I won our last discussion on the wage gap.
@nickyBBB You're one of many. Congratulations on being treated just like everyone else :)
So bodily fluids, dangerous chemicals, and hidden needles aren't dangerous to my person? Is that what you're telling me?
@BellePepper "I won our last discussion on the wage gap because I said so. by the way, I won't watch your video which supplies evidence."
It's like when you spouted your lines to me, and asked for a TL;DR of my response.
How hard is it to watch a 5 minute video of one of the most respected and knowledgeable economists of the 20th century, and listen to his points?
And when you, flippantly, dismiss the evidence someone provides for their point out of hand, what right do you have to declare yourself the victor?
@ksoma Becuase I told you why last time. Why do you keep making me answer the same question over and over?
I get to dismiss it because I sat through hours of classes and have a degree saying I get to dismiss things. It's p great.
@BellePepper You sat through hours of classes, and that lets you dismiss things out of hand?
But he sat through hours of class, then taught thousands of hours of classes, and actually worked jobs in his field, with great success.
But you get to dismiss him out of hand because some gender studies teacher told you "nope, he's wrong?"
@ksoma P great isn't it?
@BellePepper
"I will not watch this video of a smart, educated black man from the 70s who explains the issue of wage-gap logically."
Why would that be? Are you racist?
@FakeName123 I will not watch something from 50 years ago and pretend it's relevant
@BellePepper It sure is. It frees you from all need to independent thought. It frees you from accurately studying reality. It frees you from needing to prove your own bullshit.
Cults are pretty amazing like that.
I mean, you may have never done in depth study, or worked an administrative job where you put policies into actions and actually saw how they worked. You may have never written dozens of best selling books on the subject, or been a tenured professor at some of the most prestigious universities in the world...
But you are a member of a cult, complete with the sweet satisfaction of knowing you can utterly dismiss subversive persons, because the babblefuck you are taught that has no resemblance to the real world is your one uniting truth...
@ksoma it is p cool isn't it?
@BellePepper
So you are clearly discriminating against the black guy who repeats the same conclusion to this day. Good to know where you are at.
@BellePepper and what are the chances a housekeeper is going to come across one of these things?
You don't get my point. These things may be dangerous, but not as dangerous as things men have to face with in certain work places that are most likely to requier only men since men (males) are naturally stronger, so they do all the hard work that has higher rates of danger, meaning, they deserve higher payment, those who work in these jobs. And some of these work places have higher payment than a lawyar, because of the risk they have to face everyday.
@FakeName123 I think it's p interesting how you can call racism on people who disagree with you but not people who agree with you
@nickyBBB It happened a few times where I worked. Like it wasn't the worst place in town but it was unfortunately located.
No one is saying that guys are overpaid. I'm saying that the work women tend to work in is risky too but the risks women deal with are not recognized and are not compensated for. Like hair dressers and nail techs are exposed to horrible chemicals but they aren't compensated and usually aren't even well ventilated areas. Why is that okay for women but not men?
@BellePepper
You still haven't manage to explain your denial to watch something of a smart, educated man. You said it's because it is an old video which I replied to that he is still talking the results today. Thus all I can assume is you having a personal problem with this black man. Either because he is a man or because is black are logical conclusion. Considering I remember you being a self-described feminist I assumed you aren't sexist. Thus it must be his skin-colour.
If you have any other explanation, go head and enlighten me. Or just listen to a smart black man explaining stastical evidence.
@FakeName123 Because the benefit of my education is that I can quickly and easily decide if something is relevant to the discussion. And from the LAST TIME you made me watch I still know it's not *relevant*
Remind me to bookmark this post though so that next time you want to be racist I can remind you of it :)
Because there are shitty feminists screeching and acting like assholes in the media and it seems that women are busy running witch hunts and anti-men campaigns lately. Half of the shit they complain about is not being able to walk around with their titties flopping around. Also it seems there's more than enough representation considering there are feminist shows, spokes people, and events CONSTANTLY clogging the media. They act like victims when women are the most privileged people in the fucking west.
They also trivialize male issues and act like they don't have problems. If anyone brings it up they don't want to hear it. They also act like male and female differences just don't exist and shouldn't exist - we aren't 100% equal and never will be.
The core of it is fine but this third wave shit makes me giggle my ass off.
Also they disproved wage gap. You literally cannot run a statistic and prove that it's specifically your GENDER that results in you not receiving the same amount of money as a man. You have to factor in professional experience, education, time spent at the company, quality of work, etc. It's another one of those witch hunts that women fabricated to have something to bitch about. All of the women in my family are successful business women who make MORE than many of their male coworkers who all agree this wage gap shit is MYTH.
That's what the conservatives on reddit like to think, but it doesn't reflect reality. There are issues with the way it is calculated, but in general the arguments that women choose to work lower paying jobs, and men earn more because they work more hours, son't really hold up if you consider the fact that women still are expected to do the majority of unpaid labor in terms of domestic work and child care.
I'm not even conservative. The information is out there. Y'all love to state "facts" and say "look it up" but I'm a journalist. I've done the research and half of these claims are bullshit or explainable. It is POSSIBLE that you may find a sexist boss who won't pay you properly but it's a minority. Your pussy doesn't stop you from doing anything other than swimming in a pool without a tampon if you live in the west. Go to a third world country. Talk about women who are actually oppressed and I'll start giving a fuck about feminism. But if you live in America, Canada, or anywhere of the like, I'm gonna laugh in your face.
There is a wage gap, but not because men get paid more than women for the same job. It's because more women choose to spend more time with their children and often choose less paying jobs. Plus it's mostly men who choose to do most of the dangerous jobs that most women don't want to do. So yes, men earn more than women, but they don't get paid more for the same job. That's illegal.
You're going to factor in "unpaid" domestic work as a wage gap? Nah that shit don't fly. You get subsidised for working at home by virtue of your man working his was off to take care of you and make sure you have food, A warm bed to sleep in and a home to keep you safe, And then you complain about having to do the one thing he expects of you for him having to bust his ass off all day long? Nah.
@este1864 What if I don't want my man to work for me and I would like to advance in my own career and share domestic responsibilities? My partner already shares them with me, but many people think like you, which holds a lot of women back who aren't interested in domestic tasks. I have a career and ambitions, my vagina doesn't define whether I need someone to provide for me or not.
@HandsomeGuy500 It might be illegal, but that doesn't mean it isn't still consistently happening. Also jobs like programming are high paying and are notorious for not hiring enough women. It's not a choice for many women to work more at home, it's social pressure and necessity. Once we're at the point where it can be a choice, I think we reached equality in that aspect.
Excuse me? If a woman doesn't want to do household duties then she sure as hell doesn't need to but she shouldn't expect to get paid for it either then. If feminism is about choice then it's also about the choice to stay at home and be a housewife, doing the dishes and the laundry. There's literally nothing in society stopping you from getting a career considering businesses specifically cater to women because it's so important for them to fill a diversity quota. Society and the workplace is set out to give you as easy a time as possible for solely for the fact that you have a vagina.
So if you don't want to do the dishes and stay at home, don't. Go out and work and stop complaining about it. There's literally nothing holding you back.
@este1864 I wish it was that easy, but it isn't. If you're in a relationship, especially one with children, you can't just give up your duties as a mother. That does not mean, however that you signed up for doing all of it in addition to your job. You have a partner for a reason. Yet if the house is dirty and the children aren't fed, who do you think will be blamed? I'm not arguing that women should be paid by their husbands to perform those tasks, I'm arguing that if women want careers, men should be willing to participate equally in undesirable, unpaid tasks.
That's not a feminist issue though. Especially because that situation also exists for men, like my uncle for instance who had to give up his career to take care if his children because his wife refused to do any if the work so she could focus on her career instead. That's not a feminist issue, That's an issue of common decency and marital planning.
@este1864 I'm sorry that happened to your uncle, but it is a feminist issue, because the cost disproportionately falls unto women still. That is not to argue that it should fall completely onto men, as it did for you uncle, but an argument that it should be shared or that their should be affordable child care systems in place that reflect this new reality. Feminism isn't just about women, it's also about dynamics like this.
If it is happening ten women can use the law to take employers to court. I use to work with a woman some years ago. We both did the same job, yet for some reason she was getting paid more than me. I don't know why, but I just kept my head down and just got on with my job. I have also worked in retail and a variety of factories over the years. The women doing the same job as the men were paid exactly the same. The reason so many women are rejecting feminism is because they are sick and tired of the lies and the bullshit that feminists spew. In the West women actually have more privileged than men. Feminism is a cancer in our society and thankfully more men and women are rejecting it.
@HandsomeGuy500 I think more and more women and men are supporting it, overall in society! More men too, which I'm always really happy about. This site and some others on the internet are really against it though, which is why I asked about this specifically.
It's not that easy though, suing your employer can cost you your job and future opportunities for promotions within the company. It ruins your references, especially if you're early in your career.
Actually fewer people are supporting feminism. Over here in the UK only 7% of women identify as a feminist. And women don't get paid less than a man for doing the same job. That's illegal. I've worked with many women over the years and never known them to be paid less than a man for doing the same job. It's bullshit, just like feminism.
@HandsomeGuy500 Legality doesn't reflect reality, just look at Google and Facebook still paying women less, it was all over the news a few months ago...
Your percentage doesn't reflect a trend.
And there are some companies who pay women more. I use to work with a woman who was being paid more than me, even though we had the same job. It's illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job.
@HandsomeGuy500 Sure you did.
I did. I don't really give a rat's ass if you believe me or not.
@HandsomeGuy500 cool
@HandsomeGuy500 People who have the same job but are paid differently doesn't have to be man vs. women. Two men doing the same job and two women doing the same job can be paid differently for a variety of reasons - education, experience, asking for different raises, different monetary bonuses based on individual achievement and my favorite, seniority. Someone working at a place for seven years is bound to make more than the person who started yesterday even if they're doing the same job.
Four first grade teachers working in the same school are likely all making different wages despite doing exactly the same job - education (a teacher coming in with a bachelor's degree gets a lower pay bump than the teacher with a master's degree) and experience (longevity/years employed - twenty four year veteran teacher better make more than one who didn't even earn tenure yet). And it's extremely likely each one is a woman, since women dominate early education positions.