Regardless of one's personal opinion of "Roe vs. Wade", it has to be acknowledged that a Supreme Court ruling has certain legal ramifications.
As a result of the "Roe vs. Wade" decision, a woman's pregnancy was determined to be autonomous and protected by a constitutional "right to privacy".
The Supreme Court ruled that it is solely a woman's conscious and deliberate "choice" to either bring a child into the world, or to terminate a pregnancy, without any regards for the wishes of the man involved.
Therefore, for child support laws to be consistent with the application of law that our system of jurisprudence demands, a certain relationship must exist between a birthmother and a biological father. If the birthmother has the legal means of a "contract" of marriage or an "implied contract" of a definable relationship with the biological father of her child, only then should the law be applied to require that man to provide support for that child.
If a birthmother does not have the obligatory "contract" with the biological father, then that man should not be required to support a child that the birthmother unilaterally chooses to bring into the world. The only other scenario that would justify the application of child support law is if an adult male impregnates a girl under the age of consent. In that situation, the laws of alimony may also come into effect.
For the State to require an individual, not bound by contract, to be financially responsible for a "private" matter of a second party, the very essence of freedom, liberty, and justice, that America stands for, is violated.
Is Roe vs. Wade unjust and unfair to men?
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+1 y
funny how most of the women on here are ok with having this freedom at the cost of the mans freedom to choice if he wants to support a baby or not the women chose to have lol and it is also funny how women use the logic of they are the ones who get pregnant as the reason they can force parenthood onto the man against his will yet at the same time gives themself the freedom to choice if they want to be a parent or not
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to SarahsSummer as you muted me for giving very good reasons and backed them up unlike you
you are just showing your ignorance right now as you clime both are responsibility but only give one the option to get out of that responsibility how can you not understand that is not fair nor equal so mute me all you like dose not change the fact you are sexist and want to force men into parenthood but not women funny you call me a man when you have no way to back up or justify yourself how pathetic
Why is everyone focused on child support? What about the child?
Let’s say I get a girl pregnant. Then that child is half me.
What if I want the baby but she doesn’t? That’s my baby too.
I would feel just as awful if it were aborted against my will as a woman who gets an abortion because her boyfriend doesn’t want a baby but she does.
Roe v. Wade is primarily about abortion law. I think it got it half right. I understand the woman carries to term for 9 months physically, but that’s outside everyone’s control. Men don’t have any other way to create children.
As far as child support law goes, I think men should be able to sign off their responsibilities but I can see how that should be heavily restricted or regulated. Many men would regret such a choice if it meant never being able to see their child grow. I would never do it.
I have strong paternal instincts though.
My decisions on these matters have absolutely nothing to do with the girl and everything to do with the child. Only way I care about both of them is if I actually care about her, in which case these laws wouldn’t seem to apply unless she unilaterally decides to abort.
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but it also gave women a choice in being a parent so it should also be given to men know i do not think men can make a women carry or birth a baby or stop her from but i am all for men getting to say no to child support for any child he does not want
Men shouldn't be forced to pay for an accidental pregnancy if he wants her to get an abortion. Same way most people would say the woman shouldn't be forced to have the baby. If women can opt out of Parenthood after conception, men should be able to as well.
Abortion is murder and should never be an option. An accidental pregnancy could only mean accidental sex. There is no such thing as accidental sex. If all else failed, the child should be put up for adoption and also the government should stop using adoption as their cash cow.
@ThisAndThat A fetus or a zygote is NOT a baby. Learn the difference Nobody forces you to have an abortion. At the moment of legal abortion here there's NO baby, NO child. Just a pea or bean sized blob of cells without conscience or ability to feel: zygote or fetus. That's FACT. Do you REALLY WANT the government to control YOUR womb?
@jacquesvol No, sure a human fetus isn't a baby, it's a plane, it's a frog, n, it's underdog! To think human conception doesn't qualify as a human baby when conceived by humans? I would expect a more intelligent answer from someone that's of age 72. I guess I stand to be corrected.
Child support isn't about the mother, its for the child's future and welfare. You have to be painfully uneducated not to know the potential consequences of having sex. It's easy to research the different contraceptives and which work best. It's easy to have a discussion about contraceptives in use before having sex with someone. If someone doesn't make sure they have all the information and are going in safe against the consequences I don't see how ignorance is a defence. Yes you can argue the current system is unfair to the father if he doesn't want the child, but a change would be far more unfair to the child. And ultimately the father made the choice to have sex knowing how the system works and that pregnancy could be a consequence.
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same with the mother yet she gets to get out of them consequences by way of abortion, adoption or safe haven laws yet the man is forced into it aginst his will and you can argue about best intrest of the child all you like but then you have ban abortion as that is not in the best intreast of the child so all i get from you is men get consequences women gets freedom
Nope women get consequences as well, yes a man may have to give up some money through child support. A woman can have to give up her career, dating, home, money, lifestyle, security and on and on. I said the best interest of the child not the fetus. Guys still go into it knowing the potential consequences and how the system works. Ignorance is not a defence. You can change the law to give men the right to abandon the child. The only results will be increased child poverty and guys who get a thrill out of knocking up girls
So you support the right of a woman to kill her unborn child or not but don't agree that men shouldn't be forced into parenthood? Alright well makes sense...
@Ámayas_20 I entirely support the right to abortion. The fact is if abortions had never happened the global birthrate would be 25% higher than it is now. With virtually all of those new people needing to be raised by the state and half of them still not of working age. The global impact of that would have been disastrous, study's time and time again have shown that societies without access to termination have far higher child mortality rates. To the point where it would make little difference to global population, just more children dying of disease, malnutrition and starvation. So should the men be able to force an abortion to avoid parenthood? People should take responsibility for their actions rather than walking away from it. Child support is about the child that has been born. Sure we can let the father's wash their hands of the responsibility and drop more children into poverty, maybe we should give both parents the right to walk away and let the mother drop the child on the father and walk away? If you perform the deed be prepared for the consequences. If guys think it's bias then fair enough but it's still a choice knowing that or do you think it's fine for a guy to have sex knowing a child could come of it and just walk out afterwards, hell if that's the case why should he even use a condom? Feels better without and he doesn't have to take any responsibility for his actions
@Ámayas_20 i only agree with abortion if men get to say no to child support but if there was no abortion then yes men should pay child surpport i just want it fair is all you cannot give one gender a choice by forcing another to pay for that choice as that is slavery
@Ámayas_20 the statement 'by forcing another to pay for that choice as that is slavery' implied being forced to pay for another person's choices is slavery. That is what a large part of tax is used for
While you use a lot of big words, you dont address at all the basis of your initial question roe v wade is not unfair or unjust to men. Nor do you fully understand the basis of child support. Mens bodies do not take on the risks and changes a womans body goes through during pregnancy but both men and women are responsible for creating a life. A life that will require food, shelter and love. Responsibilities of BOTH people who created the life. Child support is not a punishment or anything unjust or unfair. It is a responsibility of those who created the new life.
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but only one got to choose so the responsibility was forced on the man but not the women that is unfair as you are making him pay for something you did your body not him cuz all he did was have sex and make an zygote but it was the women who made the baby
“All he did was have sex” And that comment is where your entire premise is flawed. when people decide to have sex, they decide everything that may possibly come from having sex. You’re incredibly misguided, naive and date I say, ignorant to think child support is punishment for the man. it’s called taking responsibility for your actions. But since you’re not mature enough to even represent your true gender on this site, you can’t possibly be responsible enough to have sex.
second-Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." -- Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U. S. A.)
I have heard some of the stupidest most fallacious arguments in favor of the claim that the way reproductive rights currently works is fair when it is not
First ridiculous argument - MEN HAVE EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY Some versions of this argument include, “it takes two to tango”, “he should have kept it in his pants” and “he had his choice when he decided to have sex.” None of these things seem to apply when discussing women and their right to abort unwanted pregnancies or drop babies off at safe havens. Women have a variety of options both before and after the child is born, to opt out of motherhood. These same people who call men dead beats for not wanting to be fathers and say that any man who does not want such a responsibility should keep it in his pants will go crazy when conservative Christians argue against abortion by saying that women should keep their legs closed if they do not want to be mothers. What it comes down to is, nobody can force a woman to become a mother, that is a choice that she has. Therefore, I find it distasteful that we as a society are willing to force such an unwanted responsibility on men. The claim that men have an equal responsibility to prevent pregnancy is just illogical.
Here is a hypothetical for you. Let’s say that I am allergic to peanuts, I am NOT actually allergic to peanuts, this is just a hypothetical. If I eat some peanuts, then I will go to the hospital, get some adrenaline and maybe stay there for a few days in critical condition until I hopefully recover. This is my cross to bear. This is the risk with which I live every day. Because this affects my body, it is my responsibility to mitigate that risk. The buck stops with me. If I go to a restaurant, it is my responsibility to decide not to order something, if I have no way of knowing weather or not that thing contains peanuts or peanut oil. If I ask the waiter and he says that he cannot say definitively weather or not that cheesecake contains peanut oil, then it is my responsibility to decide that I am NOT going to order that cheesecake. I hold myself responsible for that, not the waiter. When I go to a restaurant, I would not expect that the waiter will go out of his way to tell me which desserts contain peanut oil and which ones don’t, because this is my issue, not his. The waiter is NOT obligated to ask every single customer if he or she is allergic to peanuts, based on the possibility that one of them could be be allergic to peanuts. It is my responsibility, because it is my body. While it may not be fair that I have that burden and other people do not, that is just how it worked out for me biologically. I may not have chosen this allergy, but it is not like anyone else chose it for me. Because it is my body, it is incumbent upon me to mitigate the risks involved. Not only is men being expected to have the same responsibility to prevent pregnancy as women unreasonable, it is just plain unrealistic.
The man should abide by the limit on the level of risk that the woman is willing to tolerate. However, she should really be the one to determine what level of risk she is willing to accept and ensure that all parties are doing their job in mitigating the risks. Not only is men being expected to have the same responsibility to prevent pregnancy as women unreasonable, it is just plain unrealistic. Women have more effective non-permanent options than men do. Men’s only non-permanent birth control option is a condom. The condom is entirely visible to her. She can know for a fact if he is wearing a condom or not. The most effective means of birth control for women are NOT visible to men. He has no way of knowing weather or not she is taking the pill properly or at all. The way that reproductive rights currently works, a woman can essentially trap a man with a baby. She can lie and say that she is on birth control when she is not, get pregnant against the man’s wishes and sue him for child support. The only 100% effective way to prevent pregnancy, other than a hysterectomy, is abstinence. That is an option that is available for both men and women, yet somehow it is considered reasonable that preventing pregnancy by means of abstinence is a responsibility of any man who wish not be a father while a woman who would rather not be a mother has no such responsibility. For those of you who are about to bring up the what about vasectomies argument, vasectomies are NOT always reversible: www.bustle.com/.../104038-are-vasectomies-reversible-5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-form-of-male-birth-control Also, Vasectomies also are NOT 100% effective in preventing pregnancy: www.plannedparenthood.org/.../how-effective-vasectomy A hysterectomy is completely effective in preventing pregnancy, even though it is not reversible. Bottom line, the woman has more meaningful ability than the man to ascertain what the risks are. That might sound unfair, but it is just nature.
Men DO have an equal responsibility to prevent pregnancy but ONLY THE WOMAN gets to decide what happens to her body. That includes letting a penis into it and letting a baby grow in it and go through the RISKS HER body alone will endure. Whats illogical is to think child support is punishment for the father. Child support is for the benefit of HIS child.
Don’t want the responsibility of having a baby, child support and all that go with being a father, DONT HAVE SEX. THATS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, man. But please do go on, get it off your chest. It won’t change the fact that you are an incredibly misguided man. It also won’t change that fact that I’m muting you and all your ignorance right now.
Don’t want the responsibility of having a baby, pregnancy and all that go with being a mother DONT HAVE SEX. THATS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, women and sure mute me as you have no way to justify a man paying for a women''s body or choice cuz if they did then they would have equal say but they do not so why should they have equal responsibility plus you are just showing your ignorance right now as you clime both are responsibility but only give one the option to get out of that responsibility how can you not understand that is not fair nor equal
mute me all you like dose not change the fact you are sexist and want to force men into parenthood but not women funny you call me a man when you have no way to back up or justify yourself how pathetic of you
I tend to agree with Sarah on this one. Having sex is a responsibility both partners must contend with prior to their Sexual actions. After that action, both must deal with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences may be different as everyone’s are, especially relating to biology and gender BUT they are responsibilities to deal with, none the less.
@MyExperience how so as they both have sex right but only one get to choose to keep or abortion which is the women so why dose her choice affect the man who had no choice in the matter
"Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." -- Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U. S. A.)
She had to choose whether or not to have sex So did he, but unlike him she has to choose whether or not to go through the physical risks of pregnancy or not. she also has the risk of not getting an education and or a career, That wasn’t an option or a risk for the man. Is it your contention that it’s “unfair” that men can’t get pregnant? Grow up. life is unfair for everybody in some way shape or form. It’s how we respond that makes us who we are. if I made a baby with someone I didn’t love And she still chose to Forgo college and or a great career to keep it, I would still want the honor of providing for that baby, He or she is my family, my flesh and blood and responsibility as much as it is hers.
@MyExperience yes She had to choose whether or not to have sex just like he did but you forget consent to sex is not consent to parenthood or is that only for women and fyi im female
@MyExperience and the father has to forgo college and all that stuff to but unlike her he is forced to forgo it cuz she choose it unlike him plus is the baby is just as much the mens why do they get no say in the matter but have forced payments taken from them for someone else choice
I forgot nothing. Consent to sex is a responsibility. It’s not a simple game of catch on a baseball field. It’s a responsibility and again, everyone needs to be responsible for their actions. This includes to consequences of their actions. While we all get to choose our actions, We don’t get to choose what the consequences to those actions may be.
@MyExperience you do know what you just said is the anti-abotion argument right cuz if We don’t get to choose what the consequences to those actions may be then why do women get abortion as pregancy is a consequence of sex which she knew so why does she not have to deal with the consequences of her actions but the man has too why is that are women just kids who are not able to deal with consequences?
This is why I also believe you are a man. We all get to choose what to do to our own body. When a woman chooses to have an abortion or not, she will have consequences to both those choices. If I choose to get in a bar fight, i also choose how far to take the fight. I choose to give him a bloody nose or not. I don’t get to choose if he decides to get a nose job or not. I also don’t get to choose whether I have to pay for that nose job or not.
@MyExperience then you are wrong as i am female a pregnant one at that
but a bar fight is not comparable at all as in a bar fight you will not be made to pay 18 years of support for a broken nose will you you would be made to pay to fix his nose (abortion) nothing more
If I paralyzed the guy, I would have to suffer far worse consequences. If you are a pregnant woman, then follow your conscience. Support the baby yourself or accept help. Your choice.
This hypothetical situation regarding the peanuts (the comparison) is faulty. You are forgetting an important factor: this is a baby; not some peanuts. That baby could have a life and you are casually talking about dismembering an innocent being because the woman “didn’t want to have a child.”
Totally unfair. Women often take advantage of this law. They purposely have children with men only for child support, then keep most of the money from child support on themselves.
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yeah i know just look at most of the women on here trying to justify it lol
In regards to this question I would say that the decision of Roe vs Wade is , in reality, about further diminishing the role of men in society. Think about it. What are some points that feminists having been pushing for years:
1. Men are not important to the family. Notice how they push single mother hood and discourage men from being a part of family life but...
2. The feminists will still drag a man kicking and screaming to family court to squeeze child support out of him. He is not good enough to be part of the kids's life but he still has to pay.
3. Men that advocate for a father's right to be a part of their child's lives are ridiculed by the feminists to no end.
4. As per the feminists , you are good enough to be the sperm donor and the ATM machine but don't go near her baby.
5. Feminism does what it can to reduce, diminish, and demonize men through out the western world. All men are bad , all men are rapists , all men are out to enslave and oppress women and other such drool. They have done a good job of creating a chasm of between men and women. The recent #metoo movement is but anther step in their long term plane to create as much division as possible between men and women.
Yet no where do you here the mainstream media nor the anyone on the left talk about the importance of father's in a child's life. They never talk about the fact that when dad is part of a child's life the child is :
-less likely to drop out of school -less likely to have a juvenile arrest record - less likely to end up in prison - less likely to have children (as children themselves) - more likely to have higher grades in school - more likely have higher literacy levels. - less likely to join a gang or engage in violent activity as minors. -more likely to have higher incomes as adults.
But feminist and their mainstream media lapdogs will have none of this because all men are bad, bad , bad!!!
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i agree with you as i think men should get choice and rights just like us women
Women, by default, get the choice because, a few billion years ago after life on this planet started, evolution gave rise to mammals and mammals have females give birth. We KNOW who the mother is because we see the baby debut from her body. We do NOT know who the father is until the baby is born and a paternity test is performed.
That's all there is to it. You don't like that it isn't fair? Tough shit. Life isn't fair. Deal with it. Do you want to complain? Contact God. Other than that, stop being immature and ridiculous.
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i never posted that question and so then he can turn down paying when the dna test comes back simple or do you want to force men into fatherhood against there will as remember by your own logic nature gave women the means to carry a baby but it was man that gave her the power to abort so abortion is not a right given by nature to women so paying child surport is not a right given to babys by nature but by mans laws so child support by your very own logic is unantual
If the DNA test comes back positive, he has a responsibility.
Look you don't have a penis so you don't understand us. We expect each male to take personal responsibility for his actions. That's what adults do. Children do not take responsibility and don't think about the ramifications of theur actions.. So, if a man is going to have sex, then he needs to be a man and not a child and think before he acts and then take personal responsibility for whatever hapoens.
If you do not understabd this, then you are still a child.
or you are still the child as you fail to see that i am trying to make it fair if the women gets a choice so should the man think about that for a sec why should the man have to pay for a choice he got no say in as yes they both had sex but only one said yes to the baby and that was the women as she chose to carry and birth the baby so only she consent to parenthood so why are you ok with giving women the freedom to choice yet strip men of their freedom to choice at the same time by forcing them to pay for the choice of another
What you fail to understand is that he DID have a choice... He had a choice to have sex.
Let me put this a different way...
Throughout the overwhelming majority of recorded human history, our societies have all been patriarchal in nature. Why? Believe it or not, it's because women - through being more selective in mate selection and reproduction than we are - have actually been a performing an unconscious species-wide eugenics program which result in us males being protectors and inquisitive and violent and cautious. We are intelligent killers designed to do whatever we can to protect females so as to let females do their job - making the next generation and raising them to adulthood (with our help). Look around you. All that you see and all that you know is all due to the human drive to be successful as a species - to learn and master our environment to eliminate threats or foresee them before they become threats.
So, what does this have to do with unfairness regarding men?
It's an "unfairness" from your perspective because you are not male.
What the rules that patriarchal society have created is an expectation in our fellow males to grow up and do their fucking job. That means to 1) treat women and children well, protect them, and help raise them or make their lives better and 2) to act like a fucking adult and take personal responsibility for your actions - if you don't want to be treated like a child, then don't act like one.
I reiterate: These rules that are "unfair to men" are created by men to make sure that we create a fully functional and adult next generation of men.
So, when a man sires a child, he needs to be aware of the ramifications of that which includes that any females he copulates with may become pregnant. That's all there is to it. And, because it is women who give birth - who care for infants and young children - women get to be in charge. This is understood within all males at an instinctive level. Our duties with kids begin later.
so did she but we give her the power to say nope and get an abortion but the moment she consents to carry on the pregnancy we force the man to pay for her choice how is that fair really when she gets all this choices and oppions before sex and after but all he gets is before let me lay it out for you
before sex-the women has the pill, female comdom, injection, tube tie and hysterectomy but the man has vasectomy and comdom after sex-the women has morning after pill, abortion, adoption and safe haven laws but the man has zero choice but to be forced into what the women picks
you see how unfair it is you cannot give freedom to one gender why striping it from the over to pay for that freedom as you more or less make slaves
The flaw in your argument is that there IS no implied contract between a man and a woman who have sex. If they are already married, they have a contract. Let's say a man and woman, both of legal age, hook up on a one night stand. She is on the pill (for real), and they use condoms just the same. Lo and behold, she gets pregnant and wants to keep it, but the man doesn't. You're suggesting that because he DOESN'T want to be a father, he should have no financial obligation. The court says "the implied risk" was known to you, therefore you are obligated. What Roe v Wade says is the father's wishes are irrelevant if she decides to terminate the pregnancy. It sounds like you're saying BOTH of those scenarios are unfair to men?
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then their should be no impiled obligation for him to pay for what comes out of her body due to her choice to push it out
then we should also ban abortion as women know the implied risk when having sex so why should only men be forced into it or have risk when having sex but when do not as they get choices like abortion adoption and safe haven laws yet all men get is pay or jail or women kills you baby
That's your argument, that there "should not be" an implied obligation. That's what you are asking in your question when Roe v Wade made the obligation a legal one dependent on the woman's choice only. Historically, there's always been an implied obligation in most all cultures and societies anyway. If you produced offspring, you were supposed to take care of them. The same should be true today. So my answer is "no, it's not unfair". If a man KNOWS he never wants to father children, he can get a vasectomy. If he does, he can wait for a mate who wants to be the mother, or he can he risk having sex and using protection.
You can make a much better case for the situation where the man WANTS the child when the woman doesn't. Then the question becomes can we force a woman to carry a child to term if she doesn't want to, or, do you define abortion as murder, etc, etc. Whole different debate.
@ThisAndThat To you it is... plain and simple. Following that logic, if fertilization (hypothetically) takes place in lets say, 12 hours, unknown to the woman, and she takes a morning after pill 18 hours later, she'd only be committing (hypothetical) manslaughter? Of course, how do we know IF fertilization took place. But if she waits 6 weeks and it's a confirmed pregnancy which she terminates, then it's murder. So, you'd like to see the morning after pill outlawed too, then?
The reasoning to allow abortion on the wishes of the mother is logical and reasonable. They have the choice over their own body and the fetus by extension, anything else would be actual injustice. Sure guys can bitch and whine about it being "unfair" but it would be just the same if THEY had to grow babies out of their own bodies.. but they do not.
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i am fine with women having full say on abortion what i am not ok with is forcing the man to pay for that choice against his will and dont use the dont have sex if you dont want a baby crap as that can be used to ban abortions as women knew the risks of sex to but we gave her an out so why not the man
Hold up, New York has a law now, if you want to call that shit law, it allows women to abort the babies AFTER the baby is born. Once the baby is out, that's no longer their body their choice as if it were (it's not), before the baby were born. That's her choice to murder the baby is what it is. What's your take on that?
Asker The reason men have to pay for child custody is not because of the mother but because its the right of the child. The guy was part of creating that life and as such once its born he has a certain amount of responsibility towards it, plain and simple.
@ThisAndThat New York law allows the woman to abort the child if a healthcare professional decides that it either endangers the mother or the child itself is nonviable. In other words they are allowed to abort on medical grounds rather than by their own choice.
@ThisAndThat Yes, because that is not what the law says. The only reason someone would call it "post birth" is if they wanted to try smear it because it includes a provision that extends the time limit for the abortion beyond the normal pregnancy duration in case there was complications that delayed it. That is all.
Let me just sum it up this way to you. The next time you see that little girl or that little boy with their parents, ask yourself could you kill them? Could you even allow that to happen? Think about the answer very carefully because allowing abortions is exactly that happening.
Oh yes, it is. Had the process not been disturbed, you know as well as I do a child has formed, that's called conception. Once conception takes place there is a child also in place. I can see there's not need trying to get through to you, we'll let you conscious do that later.
sure the guy was part of creating that life but you forget he did not choose nor consent for it to be born the women did so why can she force her choice onto the man who is unwilling to take on that choice so you are ok with slavery then as what you are saying is you are ok with turing men into slaves to pay for the womens choice
@ThisAndThat I am far less interested in what could have been compared to what actually is. Could have's and would have's are a complete waste of time and has in fact nothing to do with the actual question of life. In fact you are sort of admitting that the fetus is not actually a human at that point but if given time it COULD become one which sort of undermines yourself.
Also I am not going to feel bad about what could have been.
The only reason the woman has a choice in the first place is because of the technicality of pregnancy. Since the guy do not benefit from this he is stuck with the simple fact that as a parent, willing or not he still have responsibility over the child until it grows up.
Again the choice of having the child has already been made long before the woman can choose to abort it so that is the point where the man has a choice, simple as that.
I'm admitting that the fetus is not actually a human? Don't kid yourself. I know full well the child is a human not a machine or a space alien or anything else but human. And it takes two to make a baby not one. There should be no choice to abort period. The choices should be, mother keeps the baby and dad's signs off all rights and responsibilities, or the father keeps the baby and the mother signs off all rights and responsibilities, or they both sign off all rights and responsibilities and they baby is adopted out. Simple.
@ThisAndThat That is not how biology works and also not how any of this works. How can you be wrong on everything at the same time? Its almost like you are doing it intentionally.
@ThisAndThat Oh really? Lets make some logical deductions then about what makes us human and why life is special.
First of does life really start at conception? Really? But what about for example one egg twins? You create "one life" but you magically get two? How does that make any sense? Are one egg twins only half human? Or perhaps.. just perhaps.. our bodies are what creates us as individuals and not the other way around.
Another thing that points towards our bodies and DNA not being particularly meaningful is that we can freely change it around and still be "Us". Crispr is a wonderful example of DNA editing but beyond that we can even survive without DNA at all, at least for a while.
No, what makes us human is not our bodies themselves but something that happens in our brains. In a way this even falls outside standard biology because its more logic than physical which also means that what this logic "runs on" is irrelevant by extension. You can theoretically take a "human" and shove what makes them "human" into a computer and be left with a living but empty body that is functionally brain dead and not a "human".
But you have never thought about any of these things. You barely know what a sperm is probably.
Asker That is indeed the default position however after that you have to account for the fact that the fetus is in all aspects just an extension of her body which allows her to decide on abortion. This is a direct result of the human right to your own body.
yeah but why should that right inpact anothers right to choice their own future like the man can he not choose to not want that baby by refuseing to pay for it as it is his money and future he should have the right to control that right
There are no conflicts since the fetus is not yet a person with its own rights and the father obviously can't claim the fetus is part of HIS body. The financial abortion thing is just silly.
if the baby is not a person then what right dose it have to his money then can he not walk away why it is still a fetus and funny you should call financial abortion silly as that shows you only care about forcing a womens choice onto the man by striping him of his freedom
A fetus will not be a fetus forever, at some point it develops a human identity at which point both parents are responsible for its upbringing. Its as simple as that.
no it is not as you fail to see that only one person consents to look after that child which is the mother when she refused to get an abortion you can shot and scream all you want until you are blue in the face but untill you can justify consent to sex as consent to parenthood for men only you have no leg to stand on as you should not be able to force another person choice onto another end of story as all you seem to care about is forcing the man to pay for the womens actions and chooses which he got no say in as yes they both consent to sex but only the women consent to having a baby when she refused to have an abortion what part of that do you know understand as you strip men of their freedom to choose their own future so you can give the women power over the man and more or less turn him into a slave to the womens choice
@Soteris OK, first of all, you've implied what would it benefit a man to have a child and I didn't address that, yet. It means a lot. I'll address that now. It means a lot to a man that wants children of his own and believe me, I did and still would love to have them.
Also you say a fetus is not human according to the law because the law says so. OK in the case it's a double standard law because if a man were to push a woman and she fell down causing a miscarriage he'd be charged with murder. Did you even know that? So right there, the law recognizes that in fact the fetus is a human being. It's a double standard play games law meaning it's only murder when a man caused the death of the baby, not the woman. Are you catching on now?
Asker It is more a fact that the child is a by-product of your body. It is less important which mother carries the child or if they had sex or not like for example if someone "stole" sperm from an unknowing guy and artificially impregnated an egg and then had another surrogate woman carry the child to terms. This would create somewhat of a cluster-fuck but what is undeniable is that the child was created from the sperm of the father and the egg of the mother which in turn makes them responsible for what that resulted in.
This is simply the result of people having the right over their own bodies which allows women to abort fetuses and the childs right to an upbringing which ties both parents to it, nothing else matters.
@ThisAndThat I am not basing this on the law since its not universal or particularly useful outside of following it. I am basing this on the logic behind such laws. As for such contradictions in the code of law its mostly just down to law makers wanting to increase the punishment for something without going through the hard process of actually majorly changing the law. It is quite common in fact.
As for what makes a human "a human" and what is important to protect that is harder to quantify but not too hard to simply narrow down. After all we have an idea of what we want to protect but we also have a whole bunch of stuff that is seen as essentially worthless. By narrowing down what we do not consider important for the human identity we can come to the conclusion that for example before the first trimester nothing of importance for a human identity could possibly have been formed which means the fetus is not a separate entity from the mother at that point.
but you are punishing men for having sex by adding unfair risks to it for men yet at the same time you are taking them risks away for women how is that fair
yeah but we are adding risks for men via child surpport yet taking them away for women via granting abortion, adoption and safe haven laws you cannot give one gender freedom by enslaving the over
Considering these differences are born from fundamental human rights there is nothing to be done about them and doing something specifically for the guys is inequality.
not really as by forceing a risk on men that is not there by nature is the very reason is unfair to men as women found it unfair to be pregnant so gave them aborton which is not a nature given right yet when men want the same (not pay for unwanted children) there is an uproar why is that is it cuz women want all the power yet forceing the man to pay for that power or is it cuz women are lesser class of people so they should be gurarded against there mistacks so by making men pay for their choices
There are many things that are not there by nature. Things like human rights for example but that does not mean some things should not be enforced. The "Risk" to guys is a necessity because of the inherent human rights of the child. That is if you think a child which did not choose to be born I might add, should have the right to an upbringing and a family.
Let me also remind you that abortion is a direct extension of the woman's right to her own body. Infringing on that right infringes on her rights as a human being.
Men having zero parental rights is simply sexist and wrong. If men don't have a say then we should not be forced to pay either.
The excuses women use about it being "their body, their choice" is simply bullshit. If men were the ones who carried the baby, women would make sure men didn't have any options. We have the ability to take an embryo out of the female and raise it in an artificial womb, so if we could uninvasively take the embryo out and raise it ourselves, women would still not allow it to happen. Why? Because it is NOT about her body... it's all about control and power.
Women steal men's sperm all the time, be it by tricking him or stealing a used condom or some other method. She steals his DNA and creates a life which he has zero say in, but she can make him financially responsible for. Imagine if men could steal females eggs and used them to make a child... men would be jailed for such a horrible act.
While what you say is true, once the child is born, the child's welfare takes priority. Of course that means that the man is screwed either way, but that is just how it goes. Unless the mother can cover all expenses without ever needing assistance from the state, he's going to be paying. A mom can't get support from the state without naming the father, who will then be pursued for support costs.
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but you ever hear of the saying her body her choice her responsibility so why dose a man have the responsibility to pay for a choice she made and pay for something her private medical matter made
@OrallyFixated but women can just walk away abortion adoption and safe haven laws are they not enough for women to walk way from her role as mother but you seem content to force your choice onto the man
Having an abortion is not just walking away. It’s a situation that needs to be dealt with. Giving up a child for adoption isn’t just walking away. There is a whole period of time there when the woman is pregnant and ends in child birth. We really need to stop minimized the experience that is pregnancy and child birth. It’s not easy, and child birth is scary as hell. People need to respect that and stop treating it like it’s nothing. And like MrOracle said, once the child is here, it needs both parents. It’s not about just the mom and dad anymore. I don’t want to force anybody to be a parent. I wish that all babies were born into loving homes that wanted them. But this is not the case, unfortunately. There is no way to have equality in this situation. People need to protect themselves. Nobody else is going to do it for them.
@OrallyFixated but you cannot use the the logic of only women get pregnant so men must pay logic as that is unfair as men did not make it that way nature did so why should they pay for something out of their control and all you want is to force men into being a parent cuz you was not then you would agree with me but you do not as you fail to see that you turn men into slaves to pay for the choice of the women on what grounds that he was not the pregnant one wow how sexist and answer me this where in the law does it say children have the right to be cared for by their parants?
You sound more like a forced birther than a pro lifer. Fight for the incubation and birth of a child, but once it’s born, who says it’s entitled to anything? You do realize that when a parent removes themselves from their child’s life completely, that they are denied an entire half of their family. Brothers, sisters, grandparents etc. Is this really making it fair? You want to try level the playing field, I get that. But it won’t happen. You can’t level the playing field when only one party can carry the pregnancy and give birth. No law will ever change that.
@OrallyFixated no i am for fairness if you give women a choice men should have a choice to so if women get abortion men should be able to refuse paying for any child he did not want like i am all for abotion being a womens choice only if the man gets to say sure keep the baby but i am not paying for it so if abortion was not a thing sure make him pay but cuz it is it is unfair to force payment out of him as he should get a choice too
@OrallyFixated but it can by yep you guessed giving men the right to refuse paying child support but i will note he also loses any and all rights to the child too and cannot go back on it just like an abortion
Alright, I get it. You don’t have any consideration for the child once it’s born, and you want to give men a free pass to make all the babies they want (and some will definitely take advantage of that) without caring for them, all so you can feel better about the “fairness” of it all. Okay!
@OrallyFixated you are so hypocritical you give women a free pass to have all the sex they want with not risks as you give them not 1 not 2 but 3 ways to get out of them risks like abortion, adoption and safe haven laws but you reject giving men just one more option on what logic youur hypocritical logic as if you really are just doing for consideration of the child then women should not get abortion or adoption oh look no safe haven laws too as it would be better for the child to be born and be with its mother but yet again you put the womens rights and needs above the mans and even the childs as you still do not get it as you cannnot give freedom to one gender why at the same time denying the other gender the same freedom and so what if the man does not take into consideration the well fair of the child as he never consented to have that child unlike the mother did by refueseing to use any of the above options i set out so yet again you are ok with forcing the mothers choice onto the man against his will and you hide behind this wall of consideration for the child to hide your hypocrisy as you cannot allow men to have freedom of choice for his fruture as that would mean women would have to take accountability for their choice and actions no no no we cannot have that can we as only men consent to parent hood when they consent to sex unlike women who only consent to sex but not parenthood in your own little hypocritical logic so answer this why is it consent to sex is consent to parenthood for men only?
Periods, commas and sentence structure will go along way to make your ideas readable. I don’t have my decipher ring to help me decode this post, so I shall leave it here. Have a good day.
@OrallyFixated if it was not then why answer all the other times when i have writen the same in every post yet all of a sudden you cannot understand me convenient is it not that you cannot understand me now or is it that you have no counter
Its unfair to the million dead babies, that get their lives taken because John couldnt keep it in his pants and Sally couldnt control herself. It unfair to the babies, I could careless about what those lousy would be fathers think. STOP HAVING SEX OUT OF WEDLOCK!
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i am against abortion so if there was no option of abortion men must pay for the child but if there is abortion then why should the man pay for her choice
Men should not have to pay the women, but they should have to support the child. Its so complicated to implement it. Most guys pay child support and the woman spends it on her nails and make up. Its ridiculous.
not really women get choice so the man must get a choice to or you have a sexist unfair unjust system that force the choice of another on to an unwilling person who never asked for it against there will by taking away there freedom of choice
Yes its pure evil. Regardless of how you look at it when a baby dies its still murder. Men get blamed for having sex but it takes two to have it. Also men should have equsl rights to wanting to save these babies.
lol you are funny you think abortion is murdur so tell me why is it murdur and not forced slavery on the babys part towards its mother as the baby is forceing the mother to use her body to keep its self alive which turns her into a slave
Its not slavery its life. If you dont want responsibility keep your legs closed. Your not entilted sex. Yes you want it but you dont have to have it. Especially if your in college why fool around. So many people use a lame ass excuse because im not ready. Its not a life.
No one said you gave to keep said baby. There are many people who can't have them that want them. There are options. If your worried about your figure dont fool around. How selfish of you to think its slavery. If you dont want responsibility dont do adult things.
and the baby is not entilted to use my body against my will just cuz i had sex how would you like it if i used your body agsint your will just cuz we say talked one time not right is it yet you say that a baby can use mine against my will just cuz i had sex so yes it is slavery as the baby is using my body agasint my will for it own needs which i did not consent to
@ThisAndThat then i could just say You knew the consequences from having driving in first place time to deicde was before you got in the car not after so we will not treat you see sounds dumb does it not plus you wine and cry it is murdur but how can you murdur someone who is not a legal person yet as murdur can only be comit against a nother legal person so untill that birth certifitcate if filled out and filed the baby is not a legal person therefor it is not murdur and guess what you only file it yep you guessed it after the birth
Ideally, I would like for the 2 parties to have a say. If one of them say no, the other can keep the child but can't oblige the other party to pay for the child (for men and women who aren't in a relationship anymore). As for people in a relationship, if a party says no, then no wins. Both parties should willingly choose to keep the child in my opinion.
This would all be solved if men had birth control options besides condoms. No pills, no implants are available, and if you dont have kids, sterilization is not an option.
Basically men have to trust a piece of latex to hold out, and that she is being truthful about her birth control in case it doesn't (on top of being responsible to take it correctly)
Sounds like an obvious gender equality issue... feminists, where are you?
Until the child is born, the man has no risks. All the consequences, good or ill, fall on the mother-to-be alone. THAT is why men have no say.
Once the child is born, then can share the risk, as well as the responsibility.
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so you are ok forcing men in parent hood against there will cuz they are not the one to give birth right got it you hate men having freedom to choice but freely give it to women
this is what you said- Until the child is born, the man has no risks. All the consequences, good or ill, fall on the mother-to-be alone. THAT is why men have no say.
Once the child is born, then can share the risk, as well as the responsibility
so you give women all the say but push the responsibility of the her choice onto the man as only the women chose to have the child sure they both had sex but only she chose to carry and give birth to the child so only she should have the responsibility to care for the child she chose to have as the man had no say no choice so yes you are taking freedom away from men to give women a choice as you are giveing her the choice and power to not only choose for her but the man too which is wrong
Wow. Let me give you a hint; punctuation is your friend. I counted 12 verbs in that one ridiculously long run-on sentence. That's way past incoherent to babbling.
None of what you claim I meant follows from what I sad. The sheer number of false assumptions and logical errors astounds me. You get an "F" in reasoning. Let's break it down, shall we? "so you give women all the say but push the responsibility of the her choice onto the man" Nope. i said once the child is born, they BOTH get responsibility. That's what "share" means.
"only she chose to carry and give birth to the child so only she should have the responsibility to care for the child " So what; you think all fathers should be reduced to baby-daddys, and have no participation in the rearing of their children? that's rather narrow-minded of you. What I said was that until the child is born, she is the only one taking risks. Pregnancy does real, measurable, and sometimes permanent harm to the mother. It even KILLS some of them. So the choice to carry MUST lie solely with her. No one else gets to decide if she should take those risks. The father, on the other hand, takes NO risks. He has no skin in the game until AFTER the child is born. Before that, he's an interest spectator at best. So no, he doesn't get a choice.
Everything else you mentioned is unrelated to what I actually said. It's all flights of fancy, made up in your mind based on how you think the world works. And you're hopelessly wrong.
or you just do not want men to have freedom in to choose when they want to have a baby or not so you force them to pay for a baby the women chose to have against his will ok got it you are a raving man hating slave maker
Wow. One note song. Did I say ANYTHING about men having a choice about having a child? Did I say ANYTHING about them paying? No. You are trying to make my position what YOU think it is. This is called a "straw man argument", and it's always a lie. When you decide to stop lying, let me know. Until then, I'm done with you.
Once the child is born, then can share the risk, as well as the responsibility
your own words you said that which means one thing if he shares responsibility after the baby is born that means he must pay for it even then he said no so yes dumb ass you said he must pay no matter what so you can say all this crap about you never but you did say it in your very first post so don't get all hight mighty with me dumb ass
"which means one thing if he shares responsibility after the baby is born that means he must pay for it even then he said no" ROFLMAO! No, it doesn't. That's where you are going wrong; the assumptions you make. Since your assumptions are false, your conclusions about what I mean are false, too. Epic Fail!
This is why I say you must look at what I say, rather than at what you think I mean.
again by saying he shares responsibility after the baby is born is saying he must pay for the child after birth what part of that are you not getting
plus why should he pay for a child he never consent to cuz if consent to sex is consent to parenthood then why dose that consent only obilge the man not the women as they both consneted to sex but in your logic only the man is consenting to parenthood not the women so again you are making him pay for some one else choice
"again by saying he shares responsibility after the baby is born is saying he must pay for the child after birth what part of that are you not getting"
The part that it's not a lie, even though you keep saying it
"plus why should he pay for a child..."
That's a separate issue. He should "pay for a child" (sounds like he's buying a pet) if he wants to be a father. So quit saying it's my position, when it's actually YOURS! I'm not the one saying it; you are! "... but in your logic only the man is consenting to parenthood..." Rubbish, that's YOUR position, not mine. Stop projecting it on me.
you have said that so quit being a dumb ass and just admit what you have said do i have copy and paste every thing you have said to prove what you know u have said ok then i will
-Once the child is born, then can share the risk, as well as the responsibility
-said once the child is born, they BOTH get responsibility
So no, he doesn't get a choice
you see in all your post you give the women all the say the turn around a demand the man pay for her choice so for fucks sake stop being a lying little bitch and admit when you are wrong as all you have said is they both get responsibility once the child is born but you fail to to say that mean he must pay for that child when he did not consent to havng that child but the women force that responsibility onto the man so lets break it down then
1-both man and women cosent to sex 2-women gets pregnant 3-women chooses to keep baby therefor consenst to having baby 4-man is forced into paying for baby against his will as he did not consent to having baby (turned into slave) 5-mans says no but he is threatened to pay or jail again womens choice
you see in all the options and choics the makes them all before and after yet the man get no say not voice yet he is forced into it by the state and the women
what part of that do you not understand as the very definition slavery is being forced to do something for another under threat of punishment therefor forced child support or forceing men into a women choice is slavery
Gods, you are SO fucking dumb! You are right in items 1-3. I did indeed say that. 4 & 5 are all YOU. That's what I've been saying all along, You just insist that 4 & 5 are axiomatic; they're not.
YOU. not me, are the one forcing the man into slavery, with the idea that once the child is born, he MUST be financially responsible. For God's sake, quit blaming me for what YOU believe. I DIDN'T say it; YOU did!
again you still deflect and dodge what YOU HAVE FUCKING SAID GOD MAN ARE YOU SO DUMB YOU CANNOT SEE IT EVEN WHEN I HAVE SHOWN YOU as i am saying he should NOT pay for a child after it is born unless he WANTS too but YOU say he must have responsibility which there for means you believe he must be financially responsible for a child against his will as YOU say this
Once the child is born, then can share the risk, as well as the RESPONSIBILITY
which means you believe he should pay for it after it is born no matter if he wants to or not therefor YOU are the one turning men into slaves not me
Nope. It means it's a separate issue, under the law. You could change the laws on paternal support tomorrow, without a breath of change to Roe v. Wade. The two are unrelated.
Ah, not so fast. They both DO have a choice, but under these rules, it would require the choice to be a forethought for BOTH parties, rather than an afterthought. And the one party who presently doesn't get a choice at all, who ironically is considered by the courts to be the most important (but only after they're born), gets a fair shot.
i am ok with with child support as long as the women cannot get an abortion so it is fair to all but the moment you give women abortion why also have to give men the right to not pay support or you have an unfair unjust system that also hurts kids as you have kids unwanted by fathers or kids in danger of their fathers wanting them dead due to the support they are forced to pay
yes i agree but the women can get away with it more than men can they not as women are giving more chances plus are handed her rights as a parent without havng to jump throuth hoops like the man
Of course it is unfair that men have no rights to their own children. Anyone that thinks it is fine the way it is, is obviously a man hating feminist and a no good POS person.
I voted no, but it was certainly unjust and unfair to unborn babies! See my My Take titled: If Unborn Babies Could Talk...……….
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i agree that it is unfair to babys 100% but i wanted to know why women get a choice to men have to pay for the womens choice yet get no say in the matter
so i will make it simple man and women have sex they only consent to sex women gets pregant she choics to keep baby but man does not want baby but women keeps anyway giving her consent to parenthood by carrying on pregnany man did not consent to parent hood but cuz of women choice to carry on pregnancy he now has to pay for that child which he did not consent to so women forces parent hood onto man making him pay against his will for a child he did not consent to turning him into a cash cow and slave to the mother what part of that do you not understand
I think if woman have total control over the baby in the womb then men should have zero responsibility. Why should we pay child support when we have no say over whether said child is aborted and little say in custody disputes
Here is the way it is! The man should be a responsible person or Partner, and not get the girl pregnant in the first place! Half these guys leave this burden on the girl! They can’t keep their pecker in their pants! At least use a condom! Most of these guys disappear, then if they come back at all, and if awant to step in the
Well I lost the post there before I finished! Anyway, the get her pregnant and then leave! If they find out about the pregnancy, then they show up and want run the show! He leaves the seed, he doesn’t care after that! At that point the girl has the right to decide smartly, if she is able to take care of the baby, is she financially able to take care of it! The same goes for the father! Most of these people are not in the right place for this situation! So, you have to choose smartly for your baby! I’m sure, that these people have seen other people that have been in the same situation, how did they do? You need to decide if you’re going to have the abortion, or you going to have the baby, put it up for adoption? There are a lot of people out there that would do anything for that baby, they will give that child the good home that it deserves! But, if you give that baby up, then you have to leave those people alone! You give up your right to do anything else with that baby! Sorry I got so long winded! Good luck!
@Ituckit66 can the same not be said about the women she had sex she got pregnant so she should carry the baby and care for it but no we give her an out but force it on the man when she refuse this out so why is consent to sex consent to parenthood for men only
Essentially it means men In relationship with the mother have to pay up, while men without a relationship goes free.
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no as men still have to pay child support without being in a relationship yet men get not rights to their child without being in a relationship so answer that
then her body her choice her responsibility why should a man pay for a parasite you pushed out your body plus if preganancy is a private matter of the women why dose the man have to pay for that private matter
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