Feminism is causing a natural divide between men and women because there is a lot of negativity around men and thier rights so now its starting to feel this is another attack on men weather or not it is that's how it's been taken.
Tools like bumble give woman more tools to Express their interest in a man. It may very well be the case that women may have to work for a decent man rather then him handing himself to us on a plate. Coz let's be honest how much do we really appreciate him? Maybe we do and that's fine I'm happy for you. But its not always the case times have changed. Women can ask a man's hand in marriage. Women can make the first move in any way we want, its just a matter of confidence. But if men keep dishing themselves out on a plate 💤 we won't have to do anything. currently we don't. A decent man needs to know his worth and there nothing wrong with him testing a woman to see if she is aware of his worth. It's a life time investment one needs to be sure. One is more likely to appreciate and hold onto a decent guy they had to work for who can control himself. Rather then a guy who is chatting you up coz you don't know who else he is chatting up and what diseases he is carrying. There is no reason for a guy to trust that we are perfect and vise versa. All women are not wired the same just like not all men are wired the same. But ye the majority are wired the same. But then in life you make the decision where you want to go. If you stay in your comfort zone and go for the majority the result won't be any different so then there can't be an expectation of change.
At last someone gets it.
Henry Cavill complained that metoo was making it harder to chase women in a traditional way, and was forced to apologise by angry feminists. In my books, there's nothing wrong with what he said because it's completely true. I'm not saying I don't believe in equality to an extent, or that I don't think women should ask men out, but some of those slightly sexist dating practices can actually be very beneficial to both sides. A lot women relish being asked out by many, this being the feminine side.
But on the other hand, rape is an absolute terrible thing and women often feel extremely disgusted by themselves and so struggle to talk about it, and it's a good thing to encourage them to speak. I understand them I really do. This is the effect it's had and we cannot really do much about it. I can imagine it makes men feel like shit because as a whole this viewed as their doing. Which is obviously bullshit. Only a tiny bunch of super shitty losers need to force someone to have sex with them. I was actually sexually harassed myself in broad daylight, but I would not want to post it on social media.
Henry Cahill caved to feminists and apologised for telling the truth. Henry Cahill was a coward. I've list respect for him now.
All I see happening is more and more people relying on dating apps and social media, becoming socially retarded.
Men who aren't morons don't need to really worry about the #meToo stuff. I'm not white-knighting, and I think that some of it is stupid, I'm just being real.
Accusations over tiny little things being blown out of proportion do happen, but they mainly happen to guys who generally act in a creepy way towards women around them. Very often it's also mainly in the workplace. The easiest way to avoid that is to not shit where you eat.
Elsewhere it doesn't really happen unless you're extremely aggressive/pushy, or you do something fucked up. Asking out a woman isn't gonna get you #meToo'd. Making a move on a woman on a date or in a bar won't get you #meToo'd either.
Why do you say real when you mean 'a pessimist'?
Sorry, I was referring to becoming socially retarded,
Some people aren't (surprises me endlessly) - on a more serious note, it really does seem to correlate to their IQ/smarts - if they can follow me they can interact with me (which the largest majority can't - especially if they came up with an agenda I'm meant to follow - I do my natural thing which is honest, gentlemanly - and just automatically zig-zags)
*effects* and *guys* lol
the smiley was an 8 followed by a )
I don't think it's a yes or no, but will have more people recording their sex, or buying surveillance systems from me. I noticed in the past year before I stopped operating that there were a lot of requests to install systems inside of homes rather than outside.
I ask few questions, but in a lot of cases couldn't comply because of privacy laws, you have to own the place, or have a letter from your landlord allowing you to do so. Ditto if you're married, permission from your spouse in writing.
Lots of requests for covert equipment, now I have a box of about 20 or so pen and mini-dome cameras for that along with battery powered micro-sim body cams, and RF frequency transmitting cams to DVR or NVR.
Times are a-changing
You mean like in the 1980s? Because sanctity of correspondence means she must be cheating - it's not a letter from her dad?
Opinion
67Opinion
Nah. Most women have such an abundance of interested men that the ones scared of the me too movement due to their own shady behavior just filter themselves out which is a good thing.
Facts
So you're fine because you know there will always be men desparate enough to put up with anything you do to them just for validation and self worth. Wow, paragon of virtue people.
This is ENTIRELY false at best.
Why would there be complaints about no good men left if women had an abundance of men interested in them?
Google Erotomania, that female psychological condition
Translation:I'm a good woman, so i know good men won't have ANY reason to be afraid of me.
I swear the ego on this one could power a blimp for years.
Oh, I see - yes, no woman needs any attention she doesn't want. I agree with that entirely (the same applies to men, but women do seem better at not insisting (except on the emotional level where you can easily get into trouble if a 'she' didn't get what she wanted or assumed she deserved from you (usually for no other reason than because she says so)))
If a man approaches in a polite and respectful way, he shouldn’t have anything to worry about. It’s true that there are toxic girls out there who freak out and yell rape if a man just says hello, but it shouldn’t be consistent enough to give him a reason to give up on approaching. If it does then I’d say he should evaluate the type of girls he’s attracted to.
That's still kind of a big risk isn't it? You'll never know what kind of person you get until you actually talk to them.
You've been hurt bad, little boy, haven't you? I have some news for you... WOMEN who have their shit together don't give a shit about men who are desperate for validation, or who have low self esteem. You seem to be stupid enough to think that desirable, competent women want to have ANYTHING to do with desperate men! Guess what ……….. THEY DON'T !!!
So go cry in your beer somewhere else. Your indignation with women is bullshit.
It isn't about the toxic girls - those you can spot (and I am easily not attracted to). It is about her toxic friends, who will knit-pick against her wishes and find a something that is wrong with you - when you can see a woman is clearly interested in talking to you like a regular human being.
The wiser girls go to the bathroom in a hope you'll follow - but to go through that 'stalking' stage is somewhat demeaning at best.
@loveslongnails Oi, why are you being so demeaning towards ANYONE?
@loveslongnails Imagine anyone going 'oh, you've been hurt so bad little GIRL' - and gloating about it. What kind of person would you think they are?
Have little boys hurt YOU to use it as a derogatory term?
How could little boys hurt such a strong independent woman?
@soleil2666 You don't make any sense at all. This anonymous poster is a weak little dumbass who doesn't know how to handle a real woman, end of story. Someone like MzAsh would spit him out while he whined about who knows what. And you too.
@loveslongnails Yeah, maybe - but it isn't a reason to abuse him
@soleil2666 Sorry girlfriend, but it's not abuse when you tell a guy to "man the fuck up".
@loveslongnails Hey, I'm not into guys, don't date them, nor do I long nails as a description of myself - no projecting yourself at me - move on
@soleil2666 Again, you don't make any sense at all. Who said anything about being into guys, and wtf do I care about how you view my screen name?
The white night is strong with this one
@loveslongnails Dude you're honestly proving my point. You are so desperate for self worth and approval that you're willing be what is basically a yes man just to get someone to say they love you. But if you're perfectly happy being someone elses little slave boy, i won't stop you.
@selfdestruction Well, if you think a bit about what 'man up' translates to...
@ asker - just be a bit more gentle wording your questions - I understood you to be well intentioned towards the weaker sex but you came across as mean, I think
@soleil2666 That's just it i don't consider women to be "Weaker" I do not underestimate women and do my best to treat them with the same wariness i would with any man. That's why its so baffling that i'm apparently being chastised for NOT underestimating women.
@soleil2666 Also i've never been good at sugar coating my words.
@ asker You can't treat a woman like a man - the way she feels you to her creates the world - a man is always removed from his feelings enough to think - a woman simply relies on that emotional impression to a degree you won't find in a man. It's very instinctive and a woman can do it adorably well and be certain of what the feeling says (a man rarely goes with just his feelings, or easily fails over to logic if his feelings are not clear - a woman just does not - you get treated the way you sound, not the way the content of your words would ask for)
@MzAsh The Internet was founded by a bunch of male geeks, essentially, so it kept their personality (that happens with many things, that they inherit the emotional constitution of their founder (s))
So the message to 'man up' is to them. I've worked with those guys at the time it was starting - the only females they were surrounded by were equally geeky, but not cute geeky, kind of butch-geeky, so they couldn't ask them about anything related to how a woman views things - they didn't have any girly girls even at the reception, let alone in the lab or office.
That's where this whole confusion comes from - in the real world you can find people who are sexually and emotionally very functional - on the Internet, like the founders, they all seem to suffer the lack of understanding the basics (think bearded fat softies who loved to show off their popular science tricks and that's as far as any charming a woman went for any of them - it was only the sales folk who knew a bit more (but were connived) - and there was of course the GM/the CEO who was an actual human male (so the 'dominant male' we all seem to be reading about. Come to think of it, maybe they are referring to me 😉)
YUP! If they think they're going to be in trouble for what they r about to say to me then whatever they're saying would have been disgusting. Good people with good intentions never have to worry about that.
@yourfavperson Or maybe they're just worried that you're easily offended
@yourfavperson That part if very funny when generalised that way - in your given environment, there will be people opposed to pretty much anything and everything.
You can outsource the judgement call on what is being said to the rest of the room - but then anyone interested in you won't be interested in the room's judgement call.
You do set yourself up for failure that way - but it does appear easier (as in, you don't have to think or be an individual - you simply go Borg with the group-think and see where that takes you).
Any person having a relationship with the whole room will then have it with the room, with your approvers/license-issuing authority, not with you.
In that sense, you are declaring you are ENTIRELY dependent on others for the most intimate decisions. And if others have traumas they are projecting out (which the room almost always does) - your chance is only in finding a perfect room (much harder than finding your own voice/having your own ability to make a judgement call - confidence is built by doing what you feel should be done, not what the room does)
@yourfavperson That is only a way to shield yourself, and to remain unavailable - unless your potential suitor gets vetted as permissible by your moral authority,
Now, giving the room the moral authority does absolve you from responsibility, but it also absolves you from any ability to have an inter-personal relationship. For that, you have to follow the interest YOU feel towards another person (with women in the room - a man will get blocked if any of your approver-girlfriends want him more or would be jealous of you).
Though I suppose you can always stick with whomever they allow you to have - considering you expect them to do the work of choosing on your behalf, so that you won't feel guilty if it was a mistake - they will slight you by denying you the best choices (the best choices always involve a degree of risk - men are wired to seek a woman that can handle a similar degree of risk just as much as women are - otherwise you end up with a deadbeat woman that needs YOU to make EVERY SINGLE DECISION for her - and that state is unsustainable/you end up with a liability, not with an asset)
Because everyone is hiding SOMETHING - that approach would only work in the garden of eden.
so it's unreasonable to see that the state I live in is a no fault state and that it's perfectly acceptable to get married, have kids, sleep around on your husband, divorce him for half of everything he's worth and ruin the kids' college funds, lie to your kids about who this other man is and his kids' relationship is to YOUR kids? Yeah, metoo is great
Any good intentions I might have seen in this question have been hijacked or proven wrong multiple times by now.
In all I see, there are higher numbers of bad guys than bad girls around. From the last three weeks of being here fairly often, I can only note that women have remained overwhelmingly sane and reasonable, whereas the situation for men is the inverse - most are jaded, angry and looking to just blame some strange 'women' concept for it.
When exactly did men turn into such spineless insecure thugs - it's aaaaal female fault, regardless of the fact they keep being repeatedly (and reliably) genuinely reasonable human beings.
You guys really need to sort out whatever is preventing you from dating like gentleman - coercing women into anything or calling them names isn't going to get you anywhere - they do have a higher moral obligation than men (the decision of what to do with a baby) - and you can't expect them to be doing your work as well or being your mommy. Grow up.
I'm over and out as far as that discussion is concerned.
@soleil2666 ... You've obviously never been betrayed before.
metoo aims to continue this trend. anyone with regrets about their actions, anyone who got drunk and did something stupid, anything falls under metoo and is justified by the movement. no evidence required, no fault of your own. we are all now victims, none superseded by anyone more so than those under the blanket of metoo
Soleil you really hit the nail on the head here. I don’t give much advice to men anymore (I used to) but men’s egos are far too invested to take relationship advice from someone like myself who represents a type who has rejected these guys before. All I can do now is mentor women to stop giving positive attention to men who don’t deserve, men who see themselves as victims and who see women as the enemy. Women should stay far away from them, and instead go for the guys who are gentlemanly and respectful.
@ asker If you look at why you were betrayed, YOU (or your elders/family) would have played a part - at the very least in leaving wrong impressions, if you were doing everything right.
You have to own up to that to get over it - make sure you both DO the right thing and that you DISPLAY you are doing it (so you're best off simply doing the right things in public).
At most, avoid angry women who are out for a vengeance - they are a minority, both online and in real life. If you are doing the right thing regularly you will easily be able to tell the difference (and random people along the way will help you) - and steer away from trouble. But YOU have to OWN that responsibility, not this concept of 'women' owning it for you - that part isn't even for your mom to handle past the age of 25 (or past 18, officially)
Right because there's no way it could be fear that's causing this no no, its gotta be the fragile ego of those horrible manbabies. You do realize your complete dismissiveness is part of the problem right?
Scoffing at the idea that a man has any reason to be legitimately scared of a woman. Your mentality is pretty much the reason why so many men these days just go "What's the point? Why should i even bother putting myself out there when any concern i may have is just gonna get completely ignored and laughed at?" Being a woman doesn't entitle you to respect, and that's what a lot of women don't seem to understand.
@soleil2666 I love how you're trying to frame the fact that as a man you're expected to face everything in life alone as a positive thing.
@asker - as a man you will need to face it all alone. You've gotten my advice about it being possible - I left for the military in times of war in the Balkans at 15 and never went back home. Was smart enough and lucky enough to not get involved with anything dirty (I joined the army that was meant to only EVER protect, ABSOLUT ZERO more - and left it when it became apparent the high values they sold me on where not all that there was to it)
People did their best to help along the way, it's not like the whole mountain is on your shoulders alone every single day - but in the end the DECISION to be a MAN is just that - a DECISION - and one that you have to both make and make happen. There are no two ways about it, and women can only tell you how it is - their much gentler nature just IS geared towards raising babies and tending to those will WILL listen - not arguing with those who will reject what to them is the most obvious state of affairs.
I've always thought of the female as such - had bad experiences with women I knew weren't for me - tried to argue it all out with some higher authority - there isn't anyone out there to argue it with my friend, save the God himself - and he'll make it all your work, just with understanding from a few others, and a bit of help where they can (and where it is also in their interest to do so - not because you deserve it, but because YOU NEED TO BE A MAN they need, someone they can rely on - perhaps with their daughters, with their children's well being). No sane man or woman will risk that just so that you feel you're getting the help you need. You have to carry all of your own weight, and some of the others' - certainly your woman's and family's - if you want one.
Your own parents might be against you - that still is nobody's problem to be SOLVING but your own. It's that whole 'being a man' thing a woman expects (and entirely deserves).
If you don't die at work or in a conflict - consider yourself lucky already.
@soleil2666 did you just get lucky in life and never see any conflict and all your guy friends, parents, grandparents, etc. never have to deal with any divorce, accusal of a crime they didn't commit by a spouse, etc?
Almost every guy I talk to today has some experience dealing with a false accusal of sexual misconduct with women, only to luckily have evidence to prove otherwise in the form of eye witnesses or (luckily) cameras in the one room in the entire building recording the interaction between the two. Even I got lucky I didn't get falsely accused by some girl because she thought my friends and I were "out to get her" even though NONE of us even knew her name NOR did we even consider her existence! Truly some "metoo" worthy accusations, woulda ruined any one of our lives, no evidence, no facts, only hearsay.
But how am i suppose to tell who are the right women and who are the wrong women? I know i sound whiny as hell, but there has to be something that can alert me to these kinds of people some sign i should be on the look out for. What can help me separate the 2?
Well for men, I’ve studied human behavioral psychology. Understanding certain personality disorders. Learning how people operate and what their motivations are. Observing how they react when they don’t get their way. Recognize patterns and you can easily spot red flags and predict certain behavior.
@Blightly Lol. You didn't read what I just wrote. I lived under sanctions, next door to a very nasty war, left 6 months before a country wide bombing, lost all the connections with my friends and most of my family (we were different people afterwards, and survivors' guilt does exist - even if nobody immediate to you died).
My parents divorced in the middle of the sanctions and the country falling apart when I was 12. I don't know that it gets much harder than that for ANYONE in the west.
False accuse of sexual misconduct? Give me a break. I used to buy that bs, I really did - women can be connived. But looking at how men treated them recently, with all the immigrants in Europe simply 'demanding some' - and being forceful - honestly, I am a firm believer that even if she did set him up, she did it with a clear conscience, he was being a player, she showed him she plays a little better.
There can be no accusation of sexual misconduct if there was no sexual conduct to begin with - and I'd be really surprised if an honest gentleman got set up for that. She'd have you robbed if she wanted something from you - the sexual misconduct is there as a warning to behave. And since men are now just whining and not protecting - what else do you expect a woman fed up with it to do - give you a blowjob so you can feel like a better player?
Give me a break. We're not in a kindergarten.
So... what things like... immediately going for the most expensive item on the menu or something?
@soleil2666 Ok so just never have sex ever, got it.
Asker, it’s not wise to judge a woman by her order like that. If you’re taking her out to eat, let her have the filet mignon. However if she’s order several drinks and making friends with others at the bar and ordering drinks for them on your tab, then I’d say mention that’s on her bill, not yours.
@MzAsh Fair point i suppose.
@soleil2666 dude I wrote that reply before you finished posting yours. ergo i didn't see it until refreshing the page.
I'm not questioning the "immigrants" in Europe, as my opinion is they're surely all barbarians who don't belong in civilized society. However, for whatever reason no one seems to want to stop their sexual misconduct and Merkel seems all too happy to let it continue in her country. I'm all too happy to point out how barbaric they are, and truly they are horrible toward women (and the rest of society). But that's something different and not on the point we're talking about.
"There can be no accusation of sexual misconduct if there was no sexual conduct to begin with - and I'd be really surprised if an honest gentleman got set up for that." That's a very naive statement because thats EXACTLY what happened to many friends of mine. That's the whole point of the "false" accusations which I'm talking to you about. Exactly what metoo has enabled.
I understand you're from a different country, but I can't wrap my head around your guess that I'd want a reward for doing good? That's not the argument here, it's a matter of the fear of sticking your neck out there only to have it cut off by the executioner; involve yourself with a girl only to end up in jail / losing your assets / losing your job / etc. because she feels like you deserve it.
All over the world: most likely not.
I don't think only feminist's make the first move. I see a lot of girls talking to guys nowadays. Nowadays in modern dating, if you see an opportunity, you go for it. You don't wait and sit around wishing that he will notice you one day. What if he never notices you? are you just gonna let that handsome dude go? how would I live with myself knowing that I let such an opportunity go? Its better to try because I have nothing to lose.
But just because girls talk to guys that they are interested in, it doesn't mean that guys won't do the same. I don't know what makes you think that guys can't do the same either. Its dumb to not talk to those you're interested in.
it still normally doesn't happen, in which girls make the first move or ask a guy out first
@IHateBeingaMan Men still do it more but its not uncommon that girls do it. I live in nyc and girls fucking talk to guys all the time. Often they are the also the ones initiating flirting. Its quite honestly underestimated in our media how often girls do it.
Oh, come on! Y'all ladies gotta stop it with that canard. Flirting is not the same thing as making the first move. A "move" is an explicit signal of interest, like asking somebody out. Flirtation always allows for plausible deniability so you can save face if it doesn't go well. Of course, men can flirt to, but for any progress to be made, somebody at some point must make a "move" and sacrifice that plausible deniability, in addition to risking any and all prior progress. We all know that this burden almost always falls on the man--and at every single phase!
Yeah, but there is quite a difference in 'talking' versus 'asking out'
@soleil2666 Nobody asks people out when they first see you. That’s not how people get their bfs. Girls will usually try to talk to you to get to know you or do some sort of small talk before getting your number. Girls approach guys too. It happens way more than you think. I’ve done it along with many of my female friends.
@DonCachondo you’d be surprised how many of me Ans my female friends talk and get to know the cute guys. I have met my boyfriend along with all my exes by getting to know guys and letting them know that I like them. My female friends all have done the same too at some point in their lives. It happens way More than you think. I started approaching guys myself because the guys who tried to get with men weren’t physically attractive enough. And you know what? It’s so worth it. Because the guys who I have went out with were all quite handsome men. I don’t regret it at all. Go after what you want , or you will lose out on life
@nella965 I know what you are talking about - and that part is good. The bit that isn't is this onus on men to initiate a conversation - without the social setting being in place. Women are far slicker in engineering the social setting - men can only go direct (unless you do the 'hanging out with your buddies' part where you can casually chat and casually detach if it's not working out, no harm done).
I'm a solo warrior, and that just gets awkward unless you command the entire room/space (which, true enough, I have experienced women do too - but that was the previous generation to me - they were really very open and no-bs when it came to liking you - there was nothing tentative about it (so women who were 25-30 when I was 20))
In all I have seen lately, the moment you drop your attention for any reason in front of the room she feels rejected, yet you can't be too open about it because a number of people don't want to be participating in your dating ritual (be it because they are jealous or another reason).
It's easy when you already know each other to protect her from it - but you can't just throw that ring over someone you are just meeting.
Because she is weaker, you must first get her approval - and since you are essentially asking in front of others, it makes everyone awkward/she needs to be able to give you a straight-from-the-heart-response in front of others - a yes or a no - rather then succumb to peer pressure (i. e. jealous girlfriends or coworkers, means she simply has to give you a no and then hate herself for it so you don't want to ask at all).
If you have any smart suggestions on THAT - I owe you already!
NYC is different because all UN staff (and all the embassies/missions staff) have diplomatic immunity so those women take greater risks and in turn their peers do because it has become a social norm. We're talking small town where everyone knows each other but you are a newcomer.
@soleil2666 I don’t think it’s the fact that NYC has more diplomatic women. I think it has more likely to do that small towns or farmer states out in the mid west are still very old fashioned. From what I’ve heard, there are women in America that still live the 1950s lives of housewives , being tied down with kids by the age of 22, marrying guys 15 years older than men due to their lack of education and job skills. In these towns , it’s expected that women would never approach men, but if you go to modern cities , you would find the complete opposite. Women would be more educated , self supporting, and approaching men they like. In modern society , men and women are equals so don’t be surprised of a woman does try to get to know a man
Losing face in a small town is a town-wide event. Losing face in NYC, you'd have to be on all TV channels for a week for anyone to know about.
It's not US specific.
After dating quite a bit and flirting a ton - I cannot in any way tell you any of it is better than having that one person you care about's affection and love.
@soleil2666 actually people in large cities have way more options when dating. In small Towns where population is sparse, you don’t really have many options to pick who you date. In farmer states, marriage is more about survival and family making while dating in large cities such as Los Angeles or NYC is more about enjoyment and love.
Yeah, I know that - but choice doesn't equal quality. In rural areas they know a few important things - gentleman is a rare find (and basically non-existent in cities) - and education is a sidetrack to private life and children (as in, priorities first - if you want one after you have a child you can get it - but it is much better to not go to school than not have a family. I could not remotely dispute that)
Sounds like you're an assertive woman, then. Good for you! The world could use some more of those.
@soleil2666 I think you're going about it all the wrong way. Try getting to know her and doing a bit of small talk before you ask for the number. You see it in movies where the guy just ask for the number and they start dating. Real life relationships rarely ever begin that way. The guys who tried getting with me rarely asked for my number to begin with. Talk to her and see if there is attraction of personality first. Its best if you get to see this woman over and over again rather than some stranger you're never gonna meet again. And I would never ask someone out in front of other people. Try to get her to a private area
do you know of any relationships that started because either the girl opened her mouth in front of a guy first or asked him out first?
@IHateBeingaMan Girls will very certainly communicate their interest to you - eye contact tells you a whole lot more than the words. They also engineer being around a guy they like 10x more then men do - but you have to show a bit of respect for that effort and talk, whether she starts it or you do.
What good is a man who can't pick up on at least a cue on when he has been shown interest - and then do something with it?
I really wish more women would stop beating around the Bush and just say what they want
@ asker Mate what they want (and what they need) is for YOU to be sensing what the need - not for them to be translating themselves to you so your life could be easier.
(You can call this 'manslating' if you need a label, lol)
In a push-come-to-shove-situation which we are all programmed to account for, she can't afford to waste her breath on womansplaining to you - you just have to KNOW it yourself, or at the very least know how to PICK up on the cues she gives you (or any other human or living being gives you)
I believe I have done enough for man-kind now 😉
@soleil2666 The most common way to find a relationship is by being friends with the woman first. This way, she can get to know your personality and judge you less by your appearance. The hardest and most unsuccessful way to go about it is to ask for the number. It really doesn't work most of the time unless you're hot.
@nella965 Are you saying I'm not hot, lol 😆?
I agree on the 'being friends first' part - not so much because of physical appearance, but because of the 'state of the mind' and 'how do you react to things I react to' being a valid question (shared values)
That being said, there is the 'you'll get a number right away if you are perceived as hot' bit - does that ever turn into a relationship, as opposed to being a fling?
(There's only one bit I can 'complain' about in not being a 10/10 in hotness department - never wore the dental braces I should have, but it is in the cards for January 2020. And you'd think being a 9 would do for anyone with any sense - or is the wiring such that you get that special treatment only as a 10 (in which case it becomes far too easy to get it on with anyone you want to - surely that much of 'invest a bit earlier than the rest' is obvious, is it? I seem to know people who consider that to be a basic logic - stay away from a 10 unless you are friends first because those people can get a non-personality-matching someone whenever they choose).
Let me close that first bracket properly as well (without my code editing tool being used 🤣)
)
@soleil2666 I'm not saying that you're not hot. But from experience, beauty is VERY fleeting. Nobody looks the same forever. I have known so many former hot people who aren't hot anymore and , they're not even that old.
I pointed it out because the media loves brainwashing folks with lies that aren't true. Neither are bars amazing places to find love nor can you get your next girlfriend by handing out business cards on the side of the block. Believe it or not, bars are one of the worst places to find love. And most people do not meet their next gfs by asking for numbers from a million women on the street. Most people find their partners from a friend of a friend or a at a club meeting, or work, church, sports teams , fan clubs , volunteering etc. Nothing the media ever says is realistic or true. It simply doesn't match up with reality.
So what if you got a strangers number? This is actually the least effective way to date because you have no idea what their personality is like. When you select who to date without getting to know them, there is a very high chance that you wont' see them again. I have done online dating where I have met so many guys that I ended up never seeing again. The reason because there was nothing about their personality that sparked my interest for me to ask them out. The only reason why I saw them was because I liked the way they looked.
@nella965 There is this one other bit which needs clearing up - the Girls ('?) Chase theory that a friendship prevents you from being a provider, with the provider part being required for marriage.
If you stick to lover and provider only, with no friendship, you are essentially preparing for an easy 'unplug' - so the divorce. Because a lover you can always find, and being a provider is something you can always offer and (somehow) expect to find a suitable candidate for (even though it fundamentally translates to prostitution/client-escort style relationship)
A friendship lost is a personal loss you don't have to explain to anyone - so I consider it the only possible foundation - but then people confuse a friendship with a lack of sexual attraction (if you are friends it means the sexual attraction is not there - and if it is there, somehow you stop being friends (which means you transition to lover/provider - the lover/business escort relationship).
Without my asking for any care (I don't mind ruthlessness if the self interest IS correct/accurate) - does a woman prefer a lover/provider on a basis of not wanting to ever provide care?
And if so, where does she expect to obtain the 'care' once her looks are superseded by a younger lover/provided for?
@nella965
(It's all very ruthless - unnecessarily if you ask me - but we are talking abstract, not any particular person). Does she, in theory, prefer the visually/financially best mate she can get at the moment - with a risk to her expiry (unless she has a child with the said lover/provider - in which case for the sake of that child, again, they simply have to be on good terms as well)
Going unnecessarily deep - for the said child's sake - if it is lover/provider - is a SHE prepared to be continuously evaluated as the best choice for him - because without the commitment she will remain respected - she is setting herself up for being replaced, just as ruthlessly.
I will go as far as to say the only commitment that won't change the moment a better 'deal' is available is that of a friendship.
At the top of the business world, you look to turn partnerships into t least part friendships as well - you don't necessarily tolerate corruption that leads to bankruptcy - but we can somehow all tell what fiber a person is made of and that has not been known to fail, not without a rebound you would expect for the emotional constitutions you'd have witnessed (one of my former bosses is a billionaire and a lord in the UK - he read me as a peer at sight. That was at my age of 21, in 1999)
Are women devoid of this logic/insight into what is and what isn't - and so shielded by the whole 'I'll either go for incredibly hot or not expect I get treated well at all but gamble it the best way I can')
@soleil2666 I think that there is a huge difference between what occurs in reality compared to your idealistic wishes. Most men are not married to women that are amazing women. In fact, it is not uncommon for married mothers to even abuse htier children. I grew up with a narcisistic mother who was jealous of me and frequently abused me back then. My father loved and adored her very much. One of my ex bfs also experienced a very similar thing with her step mother.
Men all like to say that they want a woman who would be a great nurturerer and mother. Guess what? This is not what most of them end up marrying. They end up marrying women that are narcisistic, jealous, petty, gossipy, needy. And their husbands adore them.
Personally from my experience, not all women are only looking husband with a lot of money. This is only true if she cannot PROVIDE for herself sufficiently so she has to look for a man to help her with it. Educated , self supporting women can afford to pick the guy she wants without putting too much emphasis on his income. I'm pretty educated and I have a pretty high earning potential in the future. I'm not that worried about how rich a man is when it comes to selecting a husband. But it also doesn't mean that I will marry a man who works at McDoanlds.
And here's the thing about looks, it is much more fleeting than you think. Looks will last only a small portion of your lifetime then all you're left with is the person you married. For some folks, their looks only lasted 5 years. If you marry someone just for their looks, keep in mind that it will disappear faster than you think. And all you're left with is someone you're not very physically attracted to for the rest of your 30-40 years alive.
@soleil2666 yes but women normally won't open walk up to a guy and open their mouth first
@soleil2666 Sounds like a bunch of horseshit mind-reading. No thanks! I want an adult who can communicate, not a little kid.
Nah that route just leads you more often than not into some friendzone scenario nonsense. The truth is there's no foolproof method or anything close to it.
@DonCachondo You don't have to read it if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you to read it. But men like to say all the things that they wanna marry but they end up marrying the complete opposite. I see it all the time.
And plus, asking for a woman's number is gonna get you rejected unless you are look good yourself. If you don't look good, its not gonna work. Only ugly chicks would give you their number.
have you ever dated a guy in which you asked him out first? or know of any girls that have dated guys as a result of the girl doing the asking?
@IHateBeingaMan I got both my last two ex bfs by talking to them and getting to know them over the course of a few months before we went out on our first date. We had to wait until the college semester was over to date due to his faculty position. The other, I met at work. I was about to quit my job anyways. And it was great to get to know them first so I know if there will be attraction. In the past, I was interested in guys that I had no mental attraction to.
Always know if you are mentally attracted to them before going out with them. Otherwise it would be a waste. Physical attraction doesn't equate with mental attraction
@DonCachondo You don't have to read the body language - you can certainly ask for an interpreter - just don't complain afterwards about coming across as a complete retard (no offence meant to retards)
@soleil2666 Body language is ambiguous by design and intention. You can read it all you want but it doesn't offer nearly the certainty of actual spoken language. That's not to say people can't lie, but even then it's still much more effective.
@IHateBeingaMan Flirting is the best way to build interest or maintain interest. So the asking out would be easier in the end. Personally I think its stupid to take so much guts to ask people out then find out that you just couldn't form any real interest.
And the gym is a place to store iron, yes?
80% of communication is non-verbal - you ask her to verbalise it, she can only follow through with what was already said
@DonCachondo YOU are seeking COMMITMENT without wanting to lead there. Deal with your mom.
I think its very funny how men who never talk to women nor have any female friends at all try to get dates. Its extremely difficult to get a date if you never interact with women. This is why your only resort is to ask strangers out. And of course, its unlikely that she will say yes unless you are physically attractive yourself. You're really just limiting yourself. Women need to know who you are.
God damn it I knew you ladies overthinking it will confirm what I've already known. Asking is basically a way to put one on the spot and say 'cut it out'.
Nah your point is valid for extroverted circles, but if you're an introverted guy, chances are any female friends you have will also be relatively introverted. They don't really help you network all that much lol
@soleil2666 No, ladies do like being approached. Everyone likes compliments right? Doesn't mean they would say yes to just any guy though. I get hit on my guys I'm completely not attracted to but I say thank you at the end.
But if she's hot looking, she will get annoyed because that's all she hears all the time. If you ask an unattractive woman for her number, I guarantee that she will give it to you.
But what I'm saying is, if you never talk to women and women don't know who you are, there's really minimal chance that you will get a date. The ones who think that the only way to get a lady is to ask a stranger out, that's a sign you don't have much of a social life.
so you initiated conversation with them first?
@IHateBeingaMan Yes, I talked to them casually for a couple of times then I showed them that I was interested in them through non verbal signs. Its rather awkward to just say outright "I like you" out of nowhere mid conversation. Guys are also much much more likely to LIKE you if you give them a glimpse of your personality first. When guys have no clue who the fuck you are, you just walk up to them and ask them out. Its NOT going to work unless you are very attractive.
After you get to know them for a while, you can start flirting with them in order to build and maintain attraction- which will make the "asking out" so much more natural. Its much more likely they will say yes too because you have been building that attraction through flirting.
But here are a few precautions:
I wouldn't recommend that you continue talking to them for months and never show that you like her until the last minute. But by the end of those months, you can already know if there is any real potential. Some women may causally flirt but they might not necessarily be interested in you.
@IHateBeingaMan What I actually recommend is that you need to surround yourself with women who you are familiar with. Go after the ones you are acquainted with rather than approach strangers. They know who you are and what you're like so they're have more to judge you on rather than simply your appearance. In psychology, if people know you, they will tend to be nicer and more open towards you. If they don't know you, they're likely to be much more closed off.
ya, if only more girls asked a guy out first
@IHateBeingaMan Men is naturally are the ones that chase women. It boils down to biology. Even sperm chases the egg. But its just that men don't have the guts to approach women nowadays. Women don't' have the guts to approach men either, which is why they don't do it
@IHateBeingaMan Standing back and waiting for shitty dudes you don't find attractive to approach you is the worst thing you can do for your dating life. Go after the dudes you want, its so worth it. Every guy I've ever taken seriously as a date were very handsome.
@nella965 I don't know whether there is any truth in that - it sounds like stereotypes, and I think it is rather individual. I don't see why I'd be asking an unattractive woman out when I get interest from the attractive ones, and there generally is a way for that to work out/it's rarely a problem.
I've only ever had problems with her insecurity to think I'd remain interested, since I come across as quite a catch. And those were the cases when I doubted it myself - had I found that woman earlier I would have been with her already 😊
@soleil2666 I , myself, have been also a huge catch to guys for years. But there was a period in life where I was always too shy to talk to them when I was younger (even when they were interested). But if I did not have the confidence to show up to men, then I would have been single the entire time.
There is a difference between what you are and who you "feel" you are.
@nella965 I've re-read a lot of this and it's too heavy a conversation to have for no particular outcome.
I am going through my inner thinking aloud, and was largely interested in that female (male too, but men do it less) overthinking and implications assigned to trivial actions - the way you do the most trivial things will often be interpreted as something super-important by a woman - by an insecure woman, I should add - but then she goes off on a tangent and you can't change that, regardless of the fact it isn't you - very few women I have ever met were any good at judging my (or any other male's) character - I know myself, I can read guys very easily - and I keep seeing this misread all the time.
Regarding my confidence - I don't have anything to prove, and you are mistaken in assuming it isn't there (but then again, I have no reason to be proving any of it - you can believe whatever evaluation-by-implication you have - that IS the part women get wrong ALL the time)
If anything, things are waaaay simpler - you only get to know whom you are dealing with once you've had sex - and if a woman is not prepared to go there relatively early into your knowing each other, with attraction present, she has issues with her own sexuality. It doesn't exclude or preclude a friendship - but if the attraction is there, nothing stops you, and if it isn't it's unlikely to be born later. For some reason sex itself seems to be confined to hookups whereas for relationship many women want to be friends first for a longer time - I find that dichotomy to be working against people who apply it - nothing stops you from going to love making with someone you instinctively like just as the feelings develop. You can engineer the difficulty to make a friend first, there isn't a problem there - it just isn't necessary either - it has been far far far overthought.
@nella965
Baby boomers had this going much better back in the 70s and the 80s - the ones I know would just go with whatever was in the air, sex and friendship included, and see where it leads them. If it is meant to be it does, if it falls apart they still glorified sex. The millennials are known to fear sex, if anything - because supposedly it ruins relationships - yet the basic reason why you have a relationship with the opposite sex is for SEX (not necessarily fucking but love making, though for confident both, both have equal appeal - and both should be taking place as both are HEALTHY)
Whatever is blocking you, looks wise, I can't comment on - I have always looked good, 7-8 on a bad day, regularly in the 8-9 range, and having a clear 10 vibe after any wins at work (for some reason women find that level of confidence very appealing). If anything, women have something of an issue in that department of age, but not universally - you can be an enviously youthful 50 or even 60 year old (my auntie was nothing less than downright hot at 58 still, about 7-8 years ago)
I'll finish my part with 'it's not that hard' - getting a number or organically getting together with someone - a woman that is interested makes herself available. The one that isn't has her reasons and there is nothing to worry about there (different personality, she's after something different, who knows...)
@soleil2666 I'm sorry but I didn't read everything you wrote and a lot of it is unrelated to our topic.
It sounds more like to me that you have self confidence issues but you're just trying to save dignity but not admitting to it. In one of your prior comments, you sounded like you're deathly afraid of rejection. If you're hot as fuck you would be approaching women, left and right. We wouldn't need to be having this conversation right now.
And for the looks part, you really don't need to look like a 9 out of 10 to get someone attractive. And be careful about boasting about your looks because there are many happily married men and women around your age who do not look like 8/10s. If you were so "attractive", you would've been married at your age.
@nella965
There are many cultural things that come into the play there - I'm not already married with children largely because I was born in the Balkans - we had the country fall apart in the 90s, and a few waves of wars - so it's not that simple.
I've spent the last 20 years getting my career going and getting 2 western citizenships - it simply took a very long time,
I'm also not a believer in randomly approaching - you can do that if you are surrounded by more or less equal people on a regular basis - I've moved countries multiple times, each culture has its own ways you go about things - and there was/is a question how well whom you end up with understands your background - mine is, by the circumstance, rather peculiar - so there's not much point in randomly approaching women who couldn't relate to it.
You're talking to me through the glasses of living in the US, with its dating culture - maybe it makes sense to do that over there right now I'm busy deciding which COUNTRY to live in - so it makes little sense to get involved with someone who wouldn't be there - yet to talk living together you typically get to know each other over months at least.
If you were actively living in multiple countries you'd notice that organically getting to know each other becomes much much harder - the facetime that is very easy when living in the same time is just not there when you are a country (or a few) away.
Agree it's entirely off topic - but I don't like the stereotypes that miss the substance entirely (though you do have your own right to be as deluded about anything as you wish)
@nella965 - lastly, some of what I have said I said as an advocate of the point of view, not necessarily as someone who has that issue - a lot of it turned out to have nothing to do with me (the motivation was to 'talk' about this general lack of trust in a relationship with another person (that seems to exist more on the Internet than anywhere I have witnessed in real life).
I just figured it'd be worth having that debate to see where things really are (and where they are is a rather individual thing/I am not finding much that is generic and common to 'all people')
@nella965 lol - thanks for your best wishes. Have a Happy New Year - I am pretty certain I'll get there (and would rather not go guessing what bad experiences you would have gone through to be that full of venom. Good luck with THAT
@nella965 You're being ill intentioned because I called you out on your lack of understanding of the world past your doorstep - I am certain from your avatar and being approached by lacklustre men you are not god looking either - in additional to having never found NYC in any way appealing (which you will be basing your entire identity on - that weird idea that somehow the fact you are in a large polluted town makes any of your opinions valuable.
@soleil2666 You're nothing more than an pretentious insdcure arrogant loser who hates to acknowledge the truth about himself- which is why I'm not being nice to you. You're not attractive or have the ability to attract women. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining on here about how hard it is to approach a woman. Attracting someone has much much more to do with your personality, charisma than looks.
And don't call my physical appearance out because that has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. Some guys think I'm attractive while others don't. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But if I were so unattractive, I wouldn't be dating handsome men.
@nella965 you are becoming incoherent - I never gave (you) any advice anyhow. On everything else - I can only say 'eat my shorts' 🤣. I'm not one bit sorry - you are mean and ill intentioned of your own accord, and that WILL boomerang.
@soleil2666 Dude, if you're gonna pretend to be cool while its obvious that you aren't. Don't expect me to be nice to you. Physical appearance is not what makes a someone want to marry you, its personality. Being good looking while having a dull personality is like a pie that looks nice but tastes like shit.
While I think that would be a positive development, no, I doubt it.
Unfortunately I suspect it will create even more of a “nice guy bad boy” dichotomy where boys who try to carefully follow the “rules” as given will have less dating success while guys who don’t care about me too or what’s supposed to be right will date more. Women will respond to this by noting that most guys they date/hookup with are jerks.
It’s the reason I’m very troubled by dating suggestions around creating safety for women that don’t actually WORK. For women and men to be happy and safe, we need to be teaching decent young men - the sort many women would like to be dating - actual dating approaches that are both decent to women -and- attractive to women. Otherwise guys will abandon that and either give up or tip into using the most pua of pua advice.
It has and will continue dividing men and women apart. But no worries, female sex robots are on their way to save us. And we already have all kinds of assistants like Google and Siri and Alexa, etc.
The misandric metoo crap has done a lot of damage. People are having less sex, fewer marriages, relationships, etc. It created a big mess. I don't talk to women unless they are like 60+ years old. The elderly are normal women. Never gonna lose my virginity. Oh well. Having freedom and a roof over my head is more important than having kids and sex.
Isn't the #MeToo movement supposed to support women who are or have been harassed (sexually or not) by men?
If so, what does that have to do with women making first moves and men becoming more withdrawn?
Like a commenter here said, the only men who will be ESPECIALLY affected are those who don't respect privacy, boundaries, and/or harass women.
Why do men think this works against them? If anything, girls are looking more and more for men that are kind and caring. All the abusive self-absorbed assholes can't get their way anymore. Women are too self empowered now to deal with the bullshit lol. This paves the way for good/respectful guys to become more noticable 😉
I don't think it does - if anything, women became immediately nicer once the chief culprit/the guy doing it to their idols in Hollywood got exposed and tried.
The bit I don't understand is where this guy says it works against him to begin with? His tone isn't particularly soft (the use of 'force' - but it could as well have been 'liberate to take initiative (if any assault is more likely to get punished)' - which I believe we all believe to be a good thing)
@soleil2666 Let's have a mock scenario. Say you have a man and a woman get into a fight, the woman gets incredibly upset to the point that she actually grabs a knife and attacks him, it causes a commotion, the police get involved and all they have to go by is each of them saying the other attacked them first.
Tell me who do you think the police will be more likely to believe at least initially?
Sometimes it just can't be helped. The point im trying to make is that women 9 times out of 10 will always be given the benefit of the doubt no matter the circumstance especially when compared to a mans word.. And that is more powerful then a lot of people seem to want to admit.
Let me put it this way - I'd rather she beat me up (though that'd be hard to imagine) than cheat on me to boost her ego. And had I done something remotely wrong, I'd rather let her take it out on me physically than emotionally,
Sure, there are abusive women, but it's mostly emotional (and illegal in Ireland, god bless the Irish for calling an end to that hidden misery for the world)
Let's get real about it - a woman is so much weaker, and so much sweeter - I'll be the first to forgive any attempts at physical violence.
(that is 'physical violence of hers against me - it is obviously predicated on something beautiful existing between us and on HER getting angry with a reason - but not going to the length of sending a bullies team after me - that'd be guys against a guy and criminal)
@soleil2666 Uh... have you ever seen a high school cat fight? Like ever? Women can be venomous little snakes, and can know exactly what to say to someone to absolutely break them. You don't need to be physically stronger then someone to put them into submission. Also i'm pretty sure the whole physical strength argument goes out the window when she has a knife or some other weapon on her.
Like how is it that im the incel for respecting the real fact that a woman can be a threat? How am i getting berated for NOT underestimating women?
You would be amazed, shocked and dismayed all at the same time if you knew what a man will put up with for some pussy.
The worst this has gotten for me was an ex who threw an ashtray in my direction (she was a very entitled kid, once she felt at home it was the time to use force). That was wrong, but she threw it sideways on purpose anyhow.
The second time was a woman on the street who seemed in distress - I approached to check if she was alright and she gave me this screaming anger as response, calling me a male pig/chauvinist - this was after they promoted 'female safety' in Sydney, so I wrote to them to tell them they just issued a permit for the angry ones to abuse men (and the whole campaign quickly went quiet, I think they got that something like that (female safety vs personal safety) could be misused by a woman to do some damage simply because she is angry (and quite possibly scared).
In 99% of the situations though, it is men that are a physical threat (or (mis) perceived to be one based on previous bad experiences)) - if you look at how many guys do like to throw their muscles and aggression around, and how much physically smaller women are, it's pretty clear)
Female physical abuse would be towards children a lot more than towards any adult (in that department, I believe we would be surprised by how much of it actually happens).
Oh, and obviously - poisoning older males once they get fed up with them (but no one wants to think it, research it or deal with it any other way - and it may be for the best)
@soleil2666 People put too much value on physical strength if you ask me. You don't have to be some big muscular hulk to be a threat, you can do sneaky shit like deception and lies and overall underhanded stuff like the poison you brought up.
@vivmatt Indeed, for the screaming lash-out on the street, I just stepped back so it was clear and visible she was having a go at me for being this 'bad creature that the male gender is'.
No knives were ever pulled (when I was concerned, I removed them from the house myself). And I trust my 6th security sense entirely (it has to be the spiders down under)
@ asker - yeah, but sneaky sh/t is emotional abuse not physical. In that department, women are 10-100 times worse then men. That being said, if you don't resonate with the frequency she was hurt on, she won't hurt you (the 'you have to be one to know one' thing).
Clear, cure and heal your own mind and wounds and fear women not - she can be an absolutely gorgeous creature when treated well, respected and loved.
@soleil2666 So what It's mostly some sort of "I won't hurt you if you're not a certain kind of person?"
I don't know that would still imply that she would be some victim of circumstance. And i feel it would be rather naive to think a woman wouldn't hurt a man, just because she could.
Nobody will hurt you unless they perceive you as an enemy. Now when and why they would is a whole other story - if you have a mucho vibe, many women will be triggered to think of someone who was like that and did something to them (as will many men).
When they are happy and safe they won't care, but given a perceived threat in the air, and perceived righteousness, you will become a target for something that she hasn't taken out on the original culprit (the way trauma is spread around).
Much as people hate 'the nice guy' - he doesn't carry any of that threatening stuff so is not attacked for it.
(and the threatening stuff got promoted by all those stories about the alpha male and how you do have to be pushy in the last mile for her to give her approval)
(that approval is in turn a matter of her making sure it was your choice so you can't blame her later - but things get complicated there because some just fish it out on purpose, others genuinely get scared and consent out of fear - and that fear based consent is unbearable for any decnent human to think of; if I could send a message to sisters out there it is to not expect pushiness but to either welcome into their arms or walk away - else it will remain impossible to tell whether she wanted to because she was interested/aroused or because she was frightened)
Right after you get done with the cock carousel you ride. These empowered women are growing up alone and miserable
@MzAsh You don't honestly believe that every man who removes themselves from the dating market is worthless do you? don't you think thats a little conceited?
@MzAsh I don't know a lot of the one's you're talking about so this may not mean much from me, but i don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a woman who doesn't feel like she's owed something simply due to her being born a female.
Nothing wrong with wanting a traditionally feminine woman. That’s not unrealistic. It’s just not what you are or want.
@MzAsh Wait too much like men as in "Not meek and submissive" or..."Butch"? Cause i have no problems with tomboys, it can go a WEEE bit overboard.
@MzAsh I think you are perpetuating this myth about 'all those men' - guys don't get to process their emotion nearly as much as women - it's a thing there is generally very few people you can share with (male brains are largely inferior in connecting emotional dynamics - especially when they translate the overwhelmingly voiced advice to 'man up' into being a sort of a latino thug that mistreats women (think Girls' Chase but done without that inner gentle side).
In that sense, I suspect many of those would be back to their good selves if there was a bit of friendly female advice in their lives - but all they can find via our friend Google is more denigration that just alienates them further.
Call me 'green' if you like, I do think we all have some social responsibility towards the world we live in to help where we can (or at the very least not make other people's lives any more difficult if we cannot).
@MzAsh That's kind of the problem. You seem mostly focused on the men who view women as objects thing is i'm afraid of the reverse happening and we get to the point where women view men as accessories or pets using the men you're talking about as justification for this sort of payback.
Its the double standard that worries me, You can treat me like trash but i have to treat you like a princess or i'm disrespectful of women?
@selfdestruction Yeah, but you want traditionally feminine, we need to accept the traditional male IS the white knight. None of this in-between boy-busy-manning-up-stuff. You stick up for her and then claim you are a traditional gentleman.
@soleil2666 Too high maintenance for me.
@MzAsh That bit I don't know or understand - to me traditional is the white knight (you know the guy in shining armour). Not slave-owning. If anything, look at who the Monarch of Britain is, or who the most famour Russian monarch was - both are women, so the bit about females traditionally being abused doesn't cut it at all (except for Africans who were slaves, but that is not female specific).
The ancient Greek Aphrodite, Hera, Athena - all women. As is Venus, the centrepiece of Roman mythology. Think of Lord Byron - it isn't exactly as if men haven't been loving or adoring women throughout the history - or that they are not wired that way.
The boys-playing-macho to prove they are dominant, manning up over bossing a woman around - that's the bad side of the latino culture, nothing more than that (you know the bit when mamma's boy freaks out and starts acting aggressive/threatening because that was his role model in a ghetto somewhere? That's all that there is to it.
@soleil2666 I never got the appeal of trying to act macho, can backfire on you real easily.
@ asker It's not because it backfires, it is because it isn't me and it's - well, plain and simple stupid.
Latino women understand that is just a boy's insecurity and know how to treat him kindly behind that wall - for the rest it's a nightmare.
It is quite likely the whole 'how do I get a woman' thing on the Internet started by lonely latino boys who couldn't ask their fathers (religious strictness) - they would have learned it on the street, but the Internet was easier than having to wash someone's car to get that info.
@soleil2666 That's why I've probably grown more fond of latinas in particular they seem to be very understanding and incredibly upfront.
@MzAsh Remember it goes both ways, being a woman doesn't give someone the right to be an emotional wreck.
@MzAsh I don't think anyone is to be reprimanded, emotionally beaten up (again) - just because they are ALREADY a wreck. That is far too harsh, and creates an atmosphere of general unforgiveness and then animosity. You could at the very least let a wounded animal lick its wounds, otherwise you are projecting your own hurt at others and attacking them for being vulnerable.
And without vulnerability there isn't a genuine relationship of any kind - nobody can stand being on the defense 24x7x365 - that drives people insane. Or into becoming violent to eliminate the threat.
So that attitude gets nobody anywhere - if I am hurting, help me or leave me alone. I might self-control into not kicking back if you do - but I don't like being a victim and most men will not take it (which is how you get decent guys who have been hurt by one angry woman wanting to walk away from all - for that whole problem to be solved, we have to do our part of nursing, there's nobody else to outsource it to).
Don't be that jaded, drop the vendetta you're carrying, cry it out. THAT is a natural way to heal.
I think you’re looking too derp into what I’m saying or perhaps I’m not saying it clearly. Many men who identify as mgtow or incels have toxic thinking, behaviors, and relationships that extend far beyond what they can logically blame women for. They won’t admit that but many of them were raised poorly. This creates a cycle where they too will hurt, abuse, and manipulate others around them whether it be romantic relationships, families, coworkers, friends, etc. That’s not their fault that they were raised poorly and treated badly by others and they shouldn’t be blamed for that but regardless it’s still their responsibility to heal from so they don’t spread that toxicity around. As no one should feel obligated to be around anyone who spreads toxic thinking and behavior. It’s not anyone else’s job to help them heal. That’s what “fixer” people try to do anyway and I used to be one of them. I used to pride myself in being the ONE supportive, sympathetic, understanding person in their lives when no one else would be, and it only got me into trouble. In fact, it’s something I apparently still have to work on. I still put with to far too much bullshit from certain people including family members and people online who come to me for advice. Sometimes distance is the only way.
@MzAsh Lol, you're doing that same fast-typing thing as I am.
Very well said and delineated!
I would say that whatever remains of your self-anger at being (too) caring should possibly be self-forgiven - we all care too much at some point (but caring too little is just being a reactionary to having been hurt previously by your own expectation of return-care you get owed). Have it, don't spend it on 'people' in plural - use it when needed for that one relationship you do need it for (but don't chose that relationship based on fixing anyone or proving the care first - you are right in saying it is those men's responsibility to heal - certainly to the point they ability allows (and I have little doubt it does allow them to get a whole lot further or all the way to being healthy).
I don't think I know any of the incel/mgtow people in person - such a thing doesn't seem to exist in Europe (but then Europe in general is more on the caring and 'it's ok to hurt but ok to heal as well' side). That being said - in regards to Europe- it's a mentality/society/policy level question, not a personal one.
and I do entirely agree this has gone far too deep (I knew it the moment I typed the first paragraph it wasn't going to be easy being between a guy who sounds too assertive and any women who have been affected by such a thing adversely - but then it is important to know his over-assertiveness is coming from an insecurity (of not knowing how to treat a woman as a woman, not as a princess, and getting angry at that (self-imposed) 'requirement').
Phew, tiring 😰
*Their* ability
Nope. It's gonna do the opposite as long as the guys we want are asking us out. And usually those are the same guys who have no problem getting women, so we actually end up being the ones who benefit. Then we won't have the ones we don't want asking us, and the ones we do want are still asking us.
It's a win-win for us women :)
Ah yes much easier to find who the easy to manipulate bitch boys are. Gotcha. Maybe you'll find someone who is ok with paying all your bills while you sleep around with other men. Sigh it's so easy being a woman these days isn't it?
It probably is, I don't know because I've never been a guy. Ask a trans lol but as for replying to what you said, you're generalizing too much. I'm going to medical school so in just a few years I won't need a man to pay for anything for me. Also, I live on my own right now and no man pays my bills. And I'm definitely not one to sleep around.
So I'm guessing you're one of the bottom guys who wants to give up on getting women because you've been unsuccessful? "If at first you don't succeed, try and try again." The question is: do you find giving up worth not having a woman? Because if they don't want you now... what makes you think they'll want you when you chicken out?
No im not a bottom or a top, i'm just genuinely sitting down and asking myself... whats the point? Why should i even bother when all thats gonna happen is that i'm gonna get used and tossed away like trash?
Whether you find it worth trying for or not, that's your decision to make. How enthusiastic are you about having a female partner? But my point is... if you throw it in and don't try, then obviously you can't succeed. Really the only difference between continuing and giving up is that when you give up you make your chance zero, whereas you at least have a chance if you try. Doesn't mean you'll always succeed, but at least you have a chance if you try.
I do want a female partner but thats just it, i want a PARTNER someone i know i can lean on when things get rough and I hers, but it's honestly gotten to the point where i doubt i could marry anyone unconditionally, unless i was convinced they would be willing to take a bullet for me.
You're right, unconditional love isn't even common now, but doesn't mean it's non-existent. And usually when people fall in love unconditionally (I mean in real life, not in books and movies.) it's when they least expected it and were probably convinced that it didn't exist, because it's what brought them up. Not trying to sound crazy here, but there's always a little bit of hope in everything. There are always exceptions to every rule. The WORST thing you can do is try to change who you are as a person. A lot of people try that, but you can only fake it for so long. Changing bad habits into good ones is a good start, though. Other than that, I really don't know what to say.
I suppose that's fair but honestly keeping people at arms length emotionally has kept me alive this long, why stop now?
The main losers of #metoo have been a small percentage of men who serially harrass women. It has made no difference for the lonely men who do not have the social connections or skills to get a girlfriend. They were lonely before and are lonely now.
I suspect though that women are now more likely to ask out a man than ever before. But if anything, that has had more to do with the long-term erosion of gender roles and Bumble.
oh yeah man Bumble is SUCH a gamechanger XD
I never approach women guys need to quit approaching women period. Guys need to start viewing themselves as the prize and quit putting women on pedestals. Women have the bitchy entitled attitudes nowadays and it’s cause men have been so thirsty and desperate enough of that shit men need to quit chasing
You never approach cause you know you’re gonna get rejected, you’re clearly annoying and unattractive. Most feminists haters are.
@Aphrodite801 Well this is what happens when men start getting standards, deal with it
^”Start getting” are you saying most of you don’t have standards? Very pathetic is that not? Even the men with standards have low standards. Like I said ugly anon, men will always approach much more than women, I will always get approached more than you, deal with it.
@Aphrodite801 I love how you sound proud of the fact that men are so desperate for pussy they will deal with anything as long as they get laid. Frankly you sound like you view men as little more then pets..
@Aphrodite801 wow lmfao
The MeToo movement has nothing to do with “making the first move”
Its to bring awareness to assult and harassment
Right and because of how broad the definition of what it means to be "Assaulted or Harassed" has gotten lots of men have become much more withdrawn when it comes to interactions with women, to the point where many choose to just avoid women entirely for the sake of their own livelyhood.
Do us bother a favor and actually answer my question, and not bore me practiced responses.
I feel like thats a bit of a stretch. I have many male friends and metoo hasn’t done anything negative to their love life. The closest thing I can think of is the fact that they won’t ask anyone that they work with to date, but then again that should go without saying considering you shouldn’t date coworkers.
I disagree, i feel there should be an unspoken rule where you get one shot at a coworker... JUST one. And if they refuse you don't bother them again.
Oh im not talking about the ones who will, i'm talking about the ones who feel they shouldn't have to.
I suppose it is better to be safe then sorry.
Huh? I thought the responsibility to get into relationship was pretty much entirely on the man and woman can just sit back and wait for her pick of the litter.
Well you dont have to be rude
How about you just ignore me if my words hurt you that much.
Also in sorry you're so insensitive to others feelings that you can't understand the concerns of anyone but your own.
Right because i actually value myself enough to not just settle for any woman who will give me the time of day.
Do us all a favor and check your female privilege. Now piss off.
The original intent of the MeToo movement was to motivate women who have experienced sexual assault of harassment to come forward and speak out against it, which is a good thing. But of course, like all things related to feminism today, it was taken way too far and used as a tool to hurt and shame men and give women who hate men a means to ruing their lives. It has even been used as a political tool. And yes, of course it has made most men more reluctant to approach women, spend time alone with women, hire women, promote women... all thing that harm women in general.
MeToo became just another manifestation of the divisiveness and toxicity of modern feminism. Will it motivate more women to approach men? I don't think so. Most women are just not wired that way.
I don't think it will change anything. People... Like evolution, take several hundred years to actually make any progress.
I don't believe that enough men will stop trying with women for it to have any meaningful impact. There are approximately 7.7 billion people on this beautiful rock, and unless each heterosexual and gyneromantic bisexual males just say "Fuck women, we're done." don't expect anything to change.
Theoretically, yes. Practically it will only be done by older women after hitting the wall and starting to become desperate.
In return there will be a lot more hypergamy for younger women with chad not wanting to commit to them - leaving out more men as well as creating less relationships.
I don't think so. If anything women will just do what they do best and just complain about it.
Like all the good guys are gone or how come no one likes me.
Or maybe they will switch genders and play for another team if you know what I mean.
Isn't the me too movement about some assholes in Hollywood raping and assaulting women? I can't see why men would trip unless they plan on doing the same kind of bullshit or the asker of this question is implying the me too victims are lying and now women everywhere are going to do the same? Regardless of any of that I'm not into raping or harassing women so the to things have nothing to do with each other
No. The purpose of #metoo is not to change dating norms but to bring awareness to sexual harassment and violence against women. Men should be included in this also.
No one's brushing it off. There's no comparison and reason for it. #MeToo isn't about sexual liberation like Feminism but women fighting back against the fear of not being listened too, harassed, ignored, and raped.
How does that have anything to do with asking men first? What the movement does--and rightly so---is have men question their approaches to women... you know, the ones who like to smack women on the ass without our consent or rape us? If you don't do this, you don't have an issue.
Men that think like you are are simply insecure, have anxiety, or something else. There are definitely some women willing to abuse it and there are women who need to have seem deep honest self-reflection if they feel uncomfortable by a kind a compliment, but this movement has helped MANY women who felt that they could not voice what has happened to them.
For anyone to question it is disgusting.
So, You even admit it can be abused and you still insist no matter how easily something can be exploited if its seen as a positive it should not be questioned? What are men suppose to just take the plunge and hope she's not a sociopath or overly sensitive?
1) Everything can be manipulated. Christianity is manipulated and has been used to cement sexism and racism. Social welfare programs are abused for people who want to take government funds when they don't need it. But you do not cut off a program or movement because there will be people who exploit it. That doesn't help the situation: it worsens it because the majority of people benefit from it.
2) The basis of your argument is selfishness. You've clearly expressed that. Men aren't suffering from this unless if they are sexually harassing or raping women. If it's making you question how you approach women, good., because you likely weren't doing it right to begin with.
There are plenty of sensible men who know how to approach a woman and don't have an issue with the movement. Why? Because they aren't insecure or insensitive. They know that they smile, introduce themselves, let the woman know she's attractive, and ask her out for coffee. 9/10 women will not be creeped out about this behavior. That one woman likely has some traumatic experience or is insecure herself which would make her irrational.
Stop making men the victims when the true victims are the wo/men being assaulted and raped.
Right because remember Women are always innocent victims, and can NEVER do anything wrong.
I think the selfish one here is you, because you are way too ready to dismiss any concerns men may have about the long term effects. Fun fact i'm not scared of approaching woman wrong, im scared of getting stuck with someone like you who is holier then thou, acts as if she knows better then everyone else and will never take any agency and admit when she's wrong.
Honestly, your entire argument can be summed up in 2 words. "Man Up" And that makes you more sexist then any man.
Make no mistake, you're a woman living in a first world country. You have it easier then any man ever will.
You clearly didn't read or comprehend the last sentence. That's fine. Men are falling behind on education and that's something that seriously need to be fixed.
There isn't any long term effects of wo/men voicing the fact that they've been raped or sexually molested aside from people who think that it's okay to do it to think twice.
Don't worry about getting a woman, because I doubt one would want you. You're being selfish and not understanding how rape/sexually assault trumps "insecure men have fear to approach women". If you don't do anything aside from what I've said, you will be fine. Again, you are not the victim. Men and women rape/sexual assault victims are and that's the point.
Translation:My problems are more important then yours so shut up manbaby. Also you're not college educated so you're stupid.
It's amazing you genuinely think its worth it if someone gets falsely accused if it means more people can speak out about being assaulted. Fine, i'll remember that if and when you get falsely accused of assault by a man and I'll just be there like "Well we're suppose to believe all victims right?"
Yes but not only down to the metoo movement... guys have got to a point where trying to get with a woman has become a near impossibility thank to the male models etc. online and in popular media (there is probably an inverse for the female gender with Victoria's Secret models and the like)
If you feel threatened by #metoo you probably already had a problem with respecting other people's privacy
That's has never and will never happen
yeah uh huh, sure.
scaremongering isn't sexy. But if you prefer to never approach a woman again, please feel free to do so. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that we prefer mentally stable guys and not those who can't control their irrational feelings.
Hehe funny you should mention that, i think most men can say the same about women. Listen honey like it or not as a woman you can get away with far more then a man can ever hope to do and that means if you wanted to come up with some sob story about how a man harrassed you just to spite him, you have a realistic chance of getting away with it.
So don't go acting like a woman wouldn't oh I don't know, make up a story about a man she worked with, came up and sexually abused her and that man "Conveniently" was applying for the same promotion in the company she wanted.
Dude you can't just make up stories. That's not how real life works. Sadly, because if it was I would be driving a ferrari by now. If you're not successful in life, don't blame it on women. That's pathetic.
Why are you talking like you actually tried it before? And its not because i'm not successful, quite the opposite, i fear that my success can just be taken away at any time.
Honestly i'm rather disturbed that you seem to genuinely think that a man has no reason to fear a woman.
No. In general they do not. You seem like the type of guy who feels entitled to always get more than the girls around him and when they get the same amount as you you throw a hissy fit about how somehow they took some of your shit away. You wanna know how high the percentile of wrong rape charges is? 6%. That's the exact same amount as about every other crime. I'm not saying that wrong accusations are not hideous and greatly impacting people's lives in a negative way. I'm just saying that you're wussing about nothing. It's not hard to not harass someone and women are not evil masterminds. You need therapy.
Right i forgot women can never do anything wrong right, you're probably the same kind of person who would hit a man and tell him to man up if he starts crying. Fuck you.
Great. You went from women aren't evil geniuses to women can do no wrong. Are you illiterate?
And no, I don't hit anyone. Just as I don't harass anyone. Might be a difficult to grasp concept for you, but it ain't that hard to not inconvenience other people.
Liz, aziz ansari was accused of rape and sexual assault because the girl didn't enjoy the date, and the only reason it got attention is because he is famous. A normal guy could be accused and if his boss finds it he would be fired and no one would know. There is this thing called due process which isn't being done before these men are being fired. You can find videos on line where the guy makes a joke or even says high and the girls screams sexual harassment.
For example, a guy made a joke about being fat by saying his name is hu mongous, and the girl was sreaming at the top of her lungs about how he sexually harassed her.
You say it isn't common, but neither is rape, yet girls still don't like to walk down the street alone at night.
That really depends on what someone considers an inconvinence, you could get someone who is very tolerate of a lot of things, and at the same time also get someone where someone talking to them would be an inconvenience. The point is i don't know what a persons threshold is for such things.
You can get a calm collected person who is very open and tolerate or you can get someone who gets upset because you dared to question them, i dont know what i'm getting so the easiest option would be to just avoid them entirely and not deal with the risk and headache.
@nathanp97 thanks for actually replying with something I can reply to. That's already a great start.
Let's start with your last point. First off, it's ridiculous to equate the problem of rape with the one of false rape accusations. If only 6% of rape accusations are false, that already means that there's much more raping going on than false accusations. And rape is known to be an underreported crime. The being afraid to walk alone at night part I'm always a little iffy about though because in most rape cases the victim and accuser know each other. Anyways, that's beside the point.
Aziz ansari: I agree he was wrongly accused. He was a dick in that situation, he shouldn't have pressured his date, but the allegations were not warranted. As I know his career didn't suffer.
Hugh mungus: same thing. That joke wasn't funny, the girls reaction was absolutely ludicrous. As far as I know he didn't really have any long term consequences either. I think he even got a lot of money through a fundraser. And I'm cool with that, this isn't me complaining.
Anyways, now think of all the famous rape cases. And all the cases we know nothing about. I don't have any female friend who hasn't been harassed at some point and two women I know were raped. And I don't think I'm an outlier. For the sake of argument, I'm going to add that I also know men who have been harassed and had a hard time dealing with it.
My point is: harassment and rape - in general - are a much bigger problem than false accusations and derailing that problem with whataboutisms is not helping anyone.
The stat is 2-8% of rapes reported to police are false; however, 50% or rapes reported to police aren't proven true or false. Thus, I could just as easily say 48-42% of rapes are proven false. And this metoo movement thing doesn't report to police, they just post it online, so it stands to reason that there could be more false reports than those the police get.
False rape can ruin careers, and the comedian had his reputation tarnished as lots of people actually agreed that it was sexual assault and wrong of him. Also he never pressured her. He asked and she agreed. She could have easily left.
Not walking alone at night isn't besides the point. It is unlikely to happen, so by your logic it you shouldn't take precautions/avoid it.
He still got harassed by the women and got unwantedly thrown into the spot light. He was giving an interview about something actually important, yet it was completely ignored as a result.
It isn't about whataboutism. What I am talking about is this thing called due process. False statements do happen, and so we shouldn't assume guilt until it is proven. It should be reported to police and not social media, because if you are wrong the guy could have his career and public reputation ruined.
And if you want to play that game where we only care about the biggest issues and ignore all the other ones, than we can due that, but I'll warn you know that it won't be rape and sexual assault that are talked about.
The 50% figure comes from the fact that it is incredibly difficult to prove a rape case as it often times comes down to just be word against word. If you want to argue a point here, you have to stick to official statistics.
I'm not going to talk about aziz ansari and Hugh mungus anymore. Like I said, both didn't deserve what they got, but both also didn't really suffer from it in the long term. They're not martyrs.
Walking alone at night can be dangerous and I think it's smart to take precautions. It's just not the most probable thing when it comes to rape cases and that's why I think we shouldn't primarily focus on it. That doesn't mean, that I'll not make sure I'm safe outside.
And I also didn't say that false accusations isn't an issue that should be discussed. Like any injustices it is very near to my heart to right those who were wronged. Both my mother and my brother are currently victims of false assault charges. I know how it feels. My problem is when there's a conversation about harassment or rape and someone chimes in and yells BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE FALSE ACCUSATIONS? That's what's annoying to me.
Exactly, why the full stat should be stated. It tends to be misinterpreted way to often. My way of saying it was no less accurate than yours.
So you are saying guys should take precautions when thinking about apportioning women? Sounds like you agree with me, because my point on walking at night was that it is unlikely anything will happen, yet people still take precautions. Just like how you said false accusations are on common.
Also you do realize the initial question wasn't talking about harassment and rape, so if anything in this scenario you are the one chiming in with WHAT ABOUT ALL THE TRUE ACCUSATIONS? You are basically doing the reverse of what you say you hate😂. I do agree with you about how it can be annoying
If by taking precautions you mean not harassing anyone, we are on the same page.
And I wasn't talking about true accusations until either you or op turned the dialogue in that direction. I said that it's not that hard to avoid false accusations. It really isn't.
(also you don't seem to really know how to read statistics but k)
By precautions I mean not asking the girl out. Really? We already showed you to cases of it, and they didn't do anything wrong. I could probably find you more if I took the time to look.
I don't think you understand stats, because stating the 2-8% are false implies all other are true, which isn't correct. If you want to be accurate you need to mention that 50% separately. Since you seem not to care about it, I can just as easily say 48-42% are proven false.
Sure it's not hard to avoid false accusations, just never talk to women again.
Nope. It only implies that those are proven false. We can't say shit about the 50% without any resolution.
And by your logic I would have to never interact with any man again as to not get harassed. I should generally not interact with people ever again so I can't be victim to any crime ever.
Uh... you don't have to? Its much easier for you to avoid interacting with men since like some of the people here say some men are thirsty enough that they will just take whatever they can. So you're never short on options.
That's not a realistic option though. That's what this is about for me. Op can chose to never talk to women again, I don't think they'll miss him but he's acting like it's the only option men have left. And that's ridiculous
@Liz_thorne, seriously where are all these idiots popping out of the earth from?
I mean you could also get used to being gay... just saying.
Not asking out women or being alone with them is a good way to avoid it. Mike pence does that and he still gets women calling him sexist because they say it harms their career.
The other way to solve it is have very stiff penalties for fause accusations that involve jail time and huge finds. Even if the accusation is made on social media. For social media it would be harrassment and everyone person who liked or agreed with it is another count of harassment put on the initial accuser. Problem solved.
@R_Cakes91 the only good thing is that they'll stay in their basements out of fear of the big bad femoid hivemind
Women gets raped or harassed= a bad experience. Men gets falsely accused= either prison time, lost job, etc... or if proven false he still can loose his job and have a hard time getting hired because people may still think he did it.
Basically a false accusations can ruin a life, while a rape only last a short while and you csn move on, assuming that individual csn get over it. And yes I am down playing rape, because that's what it seems like you're doing with false accusations.
@nathanp97 No one except you is downplaying rape. And that is honestly disgusting. Rape destroys lives, it is far more than a 'bad experience'. People lose their jobs because they can't deal with the trauma, they get chronic depression, they're unable to form meaningful interpersonal connection. If you honestly think that maybe losing a job is worse than that you need to pull your head out of your butt.
Trauma is literally called trauma because you can't control your reactions to it. Do you know what ptsd is?
So what is worse to you getting raped or being treated as a social pariah that everyone wants dead?
You guys are acting like each week we're all getting together to lynch a man that was falsely accused of rape. I wish that my fears were as irrational as yours. I wish my life was as easy and protected that I had to make up major concerns so I don't have to care about the issues of other people.
You obviously don't use twitter.
Rape 100% I’ve experienced it and I can tell you from experience that it destroyed my life. @nathanp97 you don’t know what you are talking about. I still suffer from ptsd and no, you cannot control how you react to it.
@Asker no I don't. And you should maybe get off it. You're definitely out of sync with the real world and it's issues.
You lucky innocent soul... i envy you.
People aren't threatened by metoo because they are abusive, they are getting threatened by the girls wanting to fit in and slander a perfectly decent guy for something simple as a flirt or her changing her mind afterwards. Society is not treating these men fairly and assumes the worst, and metoo amplified that phenomenon by giving it a microphone hashtag everyone wanted to belong to.
I'm going to try so hard right now to cool all your jets.
Liz.. irrational or not, you know that an issue with the danger of dealing with the opposite gender is the fear of it happening. Even if it was unlikely that you would be harassed the societal reality of that fear is still there and we would be insensitive to dismiss that.
And here we have a man who is afraid of rape accusation.. it doesn't matter how unlikely it is. His fear is valid and we should not dismiss it.
Both of you have made nearly no effort to see eye to eye ! I'm very disappointed in both of you : <
Both feminists and men rights activists believe that the problem is circular. The toxicity is something created by both been and women. Each side needs to change. Whether it's women who need to stop dragging other women down in combative squabbles or men need to learn consent. Some women need to learn that their exes would make better fathers, and some men need to learn that they can be desired instead of being predatory.
Liz you're right that men who have a problem with #metoo probably have trouble with respect.. but that is not a helpful statement. It's like saying violent crimes are probably committed by black people or women are more likely to cheat.
These things are statistically true, but do not help us bridge the gap.. and in this context, only means to drive us apart. Please apologize to each other and have a civilized talk on the internet : <
You do realize men are more likely to suffer from violent crime, right. So men suffer from stuff like that and more men go to war and get the real PTSD. I didn't say it is easy to get over it, but you have more control over it than a guy does when falsely accused. Most guys are good people, yet they can still be falsely accused, and they get there lives ruined over it. In Spain for example they can actually end up in prison over accusations before it is even proven.
@nathanp97 have you ever experienced PTSD?
There is no 'real' ptsd. It is either diagnosed or not. You don't get to say who 'really' suffers from it and who doesn't. The entitlement of you guys is unbelievable.
@ dude sorry my keyboard won't let me spell your username, I hope you still read this: this isn't about building bridges. Both of these mouthbreathers don't care about actually addressing any issues. What they care about is smashing their keyboards and making women responsible for all of their issues. This post wasn't about a man who is afraid this post was meant as a HA! YOU WOMEN MADE MEN NOT WANT TO APPROACH YOU ANYMORE! NO I WANT YOU TO FEEL BAAAAD!. op never wanted to express his fears, op wanted other people to feel guilty. Between misreading statistics, overexaggerating the effects of false accusations and undermining those of rape as 'a bad experience' (I still can't believe that one) these guys have done nothing to further the conversation. You can't expect me to 'see eye to eye' any more than I already did.
Yes make it all about you because you're always the victim, and could never do anything wrong.
You're pathetic. And after that little spiteful dose of venom you just spewed your opinion no longer matters to me.
And i only hope when you get old and grey and you are about to close your eyes for the last time, that you are penniless, frail, bitter and alone. You worthless femcel.
1. What? Where did I make this about me?
2. As if my opinion ever mattered to you lol
3. you can't accuse me of spitting venom when you're apparently to illiterate to read your own posts. However I don't care because you seem like a very bitter and unhappy person and I am not. So as much as you might wish those things on me and be a petty brat, I can assure you it won't happen. I only hope for you two that you get out of the deeply toxic and unhappy place that is the manosphere. The normal world is waiting for you to return.
@Asker you’ve been sitting around like a gross vulture, jumping on the backs of any misogynistic thing anyone says. You’re not that smart and you’d have gotten kicked in the dick if you said any of the crap you said here which leads me to believe that you haven’t left your basement in quite a while. If you’re mad at women, then for crying out loud go learn how to talk to one, but don’t fester behind your URL spewing that the world ain’t fair. That is the definition of pathetic.
Liz, I am reporting stats correctly because I stated the whole thing. You selected the part that fits your agenda. All I did was call you out on it and show how I could do the same thing. The issue of false accusations was what the whole option was about, and that is a real issue. We aren't making women responsible for our issue, although I find it ironic coming from a women/feminists. Blame everything on the patriarchy and men. Is that not the feminists agenda?
Lots of women don't even like being approached these days, and you said you wouldn't want guys like us to approach you anyways, so you are giving mixed signals here. I didn't over exaggerate and I gave actual solutions to solve it. One of which was making people who make false accusations more accountable for their actions with stiff fines and jail time. You should really go back and read my comments. I said I was going to down play it because you are doing the same with false accusations of rape and assault. You can't seem to see things from my perspective, because you've never had to deal with the fear fo having your career and life ruined over an accusation.
I agree with you that rape and sexual assault is bad and wrong, but there is this thing called due process, that is being ignored. You can't go posting online or talking to your boss about a guy doing things to you he never did. It can destroy a guys life, and there is little to no repercussions for doing so, which is why if proven false they should the same punishment as what they were falsely accusing the guy of. If you say he raped you and he didn't, well then the time he would have gotten is the time you surve. It would help guys out😂. The problem with rape and assault is that you can't even ask if it really happened without people attacking you; Kinda like you did. All you are alowed to do is believe the women, even when it is online and the chances of her lying are much higher.
R-cakes, nothing I said was misogynistic. You should really Google these terms first. So you are saying women would kick a guy in the dick? Sounds like women are the violent ones not the guys. Pathetic, is how women are to cowardly to ask a guy out that they have to call him weak and pathetic because he is afraid of being accused of rape or sexual assault, while the women's only fear is of rejection. Women just need to grow a pair or stop making false accusations. If a guy rapes a girl 10 other guys will jump in and stop it (assuming they witness it), while of a girl knows of a false accusations she will likely fo nothing.
@nathanp97, I’m not talking about you. I was talking to him on another post.
If you think dating is the same thing as sexual assault then maybe you should wait for a woman to make the first move.
How/where did he imply the dating and sexual assault to be the same thing?
@soleil2666 I’m sorry, maybe you’ve been living under a rock. #metoo is a movement against sexual harassment and sexual assault When the asker suggests men are becoming withdrawn from dating due to this movement, he is creating the link. I’m not implying anything further than what the asker inferred.
@sarahsummer - Indeed - if you read it the way it is written, that is what it says.
I just don't know a single man that would actually be asking a question like that - so I assumed it's a language problem not an intentions problem.
I could be wrong.
@soleil2666 I've never been good with finding the right words
@ asker - that is my assumption. I don't trust that a man (by my definition) would hurt a woman. But then I can appreciate that if you are posting anonymously and asking if anything will _force_ women to do anything you come across as a bully, effectively.
Like MzAsh has said here - they don't owe you their understanding - pretty much everyone you'll find on a forum about male-female relations will have gone through some bad experience and you can't afford to be the guy triggering any bad memories - let alone standing up for that.
What you after after is women making the first move to make your life easier - all I can tell you about is the best advice I've been given by older (gentle) men - be a gentleman, treat a lady well (that doesn't mean treat her like a princess in the sense she can abuse you - but you'll have to get to a place where you can be vulnerable, sexual and trust her all at the same time to be able to open up and still be gentle and a man about it.
A typo there - it should read 'What you [b]are[/b] after'
You'll have to learn how to have some heart. How to wear your best version and your vulnerability on your sleeve, not your attitude or anger, and to be open. An angry woman that you are afraid of, that you then have to treat like a princess, if not the woman you can have a humanly possible (and true to its substance) relationship with - that is guilt speaking.
Get rid of the attitude, be a gentleman, and then go see how you do with that - there's a wonderful feeling of being accepted by a woman you are attracted to, which is what you are after - just don't expect her to deal with your anger or aggression - you have to go figure that out yourself.
Lmao no. You should know. When a woman is given all the facts and they prove that women wrong they will still do or say anything to try and twist it onto you.
So when faced with #metoo is any girl going to admit they caused this? Is any girl going to go guess i’ll have to ask a guy out from now on. No chance.
No. Considering that the instances that happen with douchrbag women treating a simple hello as a sexual harassment is very low. Most women don't care about simple flirtation or interest. It's when men don't take no as an answer, that an issue arises.
The #MeToo movement was too extreme to work long term. It was necessary, but one girls realize flirting is not sexual assault it will be okay for either gender to ask the other one out. #MeToo needed to be extreme, because slower attempts failed, but if it was enacted long term a guy couldn't even talk to a girl without her permission
I don't think any force in the universe can make women get up off their lazy asses and solve their own problems, they'll just wallow in their own misery and cry and wish for Prince Charming to come crawling through their window.
@kim45456 Just the "femi" part, as far as I know. 
@kim45456 Do you also stand up for men against feminazis when they attack a whole gender? Or do you only attack men for acting like feminazis, like a big fat hypocrite?
@kim45456 I bet it doesn't, lol. I bet you've never defended men in your life, isn't that so? Just be honest. I was honest with you about being a Nazi.
No, poundmetoo's impact will be felt more in the work place than anywhere else. Men looking to get laid will always be more than happy to extend the first branch. Men in the work place with something to lose will be avoiding coworkers who are women whenever possible. Some broad you met at the bar has nothing on you. A coworker can get you fired.
The #MeToo "movement" has nothing to do with dating! It's to bring awareness to sexual assault/harassment/violence that happens and nothing is done about it or it's covered up. I AM A sexual assault SURVIVOR and when I went to the police nothing was done! I AM A PART OF THE #MeToo "movement"; It has not changed dating AT ALL for me.
So you still don't mind guys approaching you?
It WAS initially to bring awareness. But has been taken over to spread hate against men by turning any move from them into harassment or sexual assault. To the point you have many people considering you shouldn't even make a move on a woman if she didn't clearly and openly allowed you to do so.
Some were joking about having to sign a agreement contract before trying anything, but we're not far from it, and some even seriously suggested the idea.
@dontknow12 I don't care about guys approaching me; I'm more aware of situations and surroundings that I could be placed in.
Yeah well I'm not backing down cause I'm not one to hit on a metoo type of girl anyways, but I definitely don't think many girls are gonna understand that emancipation also comes with new responsibilities besides all the fun...
No. It made men withdraw, but that doesn't necessitate that women will advance.
It seems obvious now with the benefit of hindsight, but the more likely response is that they will simply complain. It's sort of a 'path of least resistance' thing.
I think we see a lot of women interpret the whole thing as evidence of flaws in men and then conclude that the are in the right, that they don't need to act and feel validated in doing so. They cast blame at men feeling wholly justified in making demands on men, even moreso than before MeToo.
I could see a small uptick in the number of women who initiate, but overall I think men will generally be the initiators. MeToo doesn’t totally overpower human instinct.
Well, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. Because then women would only talk to guys that they actually want to talk to. No more unwanted advances.
Well trigger me timbers! Lots of female opinions on this one.
You wish some post-wall roast or cool wine aunt came down to offer a young naive incel a drink.
Boy, that ain't gonna happen, holes gonna be holes. They already make the first move for higher quality dick and get flooded by emasculated orbiters, no matter feminism or #metoo in the way.
More and more men will not become withdrawn from dating. This is mostly gay men saying this to try to encourage straight guys to give gay a try.
I don't think any guy that I would be interested in would be affected. Because they would be respectful and ask
I doubt they would, as it seems that Metoo are DEMONIZING ALL MEN!!
Guilty, even if proven innocent and respectful!
Already observably happened, look at all the MGTOW guys who gave up trying while specifically citing issues like this making it to toxic for them.
Never give up g. I know being in a social funk can be a real battle. But stay busy. Work on yourself and open up to people when you can. And remember, everybody on this planet suffers. Everybody deals with their own insecurities.
I really dont get what you mean, Metoo has literally nothing to do with that.
no... not for rational guys that always knew how to be respectful anyway
No. Simple truth is is that the only men affected by it are the ones it applies to.
That's where you're wrong. It affects mostly men who aren't bad. Because it scared them away, they're afraid that any attempt to make a move on a woman could be turned against them to accuse them of harassment. Assholes don't give a shit about that, good men on the other hand don't want to risk it.
@Guanfei if they get scared by it, again, it's because they themselves are not wholly good.
A good man knows they're a good man, and that there's good women. They also know if they are indeed a good man, that they'll never be able to even be accused of any such conduct.
So thanks for the input, but no thanks.
I thought #MeToo was a movement that deterred women from dealing with men at all in case of sexual harassment 😅😅😅
Thirsty dudes are never in short supply. As a man, either you make something work or you end up alone. If you don't prove your loyalty and worth to the system as a tool, people will throw you into the human trash heap without even batting an eye.
It all depends on whether or not the individual has an "Alpha" personality. These individuals will initiate the first move irregardless of contemporary social norms.
No, and that's quite funny. They scared all men away with that bullshit, and now more and more women complain that men never make a move and no one try to seduce them.
I'm my country men don't have to worry about entities such as #MeToo. Last year a 16year old boy talked to the wrong girl and was shot to death for it!
No, most women still think it's the guy's job to approach.
possibly, that'd be nice, but hard to say if that may or may not happen. me thinks us guys need to nut up and approach even with the #metoo movement against us.
Lol. There's a difference between rape which is forceful sex and voluntary wish
It's hard to say but it will end up doing damage to all of us.
Never ask a guy out. Thats what i was told and learned the hard way.
I will say that recently I have been getting hit on more. Not sure if that is #f-me-too or whatever.
No. Women still expect you to make the first move and for you to pick up the check. Feminism evaporates when the bill comes.
This should answer the question
This answers nothing lol so many men have done this all their lives
@DonCachondo it says everything. Deal with it.
The amount of men asking me hasn't decreased, however u r missing out on who u want because ur letting other men talk in ur place. Lol ur mindset sucks
Metoo aims to make women the perpetual victim and put dating in a stalemate. Just another part of the insane left that runs our society now
I think the people who are all about metoo movement that are single will probably be single for a long time or have difficulties engaging in relationships.
Is this still a thing? I haven't heard anything about the #Metoo movement in a while now
Don't about that but it can increase the cost of a Hooker/prosritute.. 🤭
Nothing can force women to do things she doesn't want to do.
They just date other girls instead when that happens, lmao
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