Feminism has always been a liberal movement but ever since they have started accepting conservative women, it seems to have changed. Feminism used to be about freedom, but now you see feminists supporting bans on grid girls, bikini competitions, and sexual expression in the media, and even going as far as calling the Hijab a symbol of feminism. Do you think elements of conservatism have infiltrated feminism so deeply that feminism can longer be seen as liberal?
Note: I am using the terms "conservatism" and "liberalism" in a broader sense, not how they are understood in US politics.
I agree, feminism is no longer a liberal movement
I disagree, feminism is still a liberal movement
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Do you think feminism is no longer a liberal movement?
I almost fell for the classic American plunder reading this question. It's not really about individuality anymore. 1st wave feminism was centrally about women's rights, 2nd was about social expectations since American society was conservative in the sense that it was a large group of people having a similar shared experience. Women had a lot of social expectations to stay at home, not go to college or hold jobs. So 2nd wave was about breaking free from the mold and it was very (globally) liberal. 3rd wave seems to be largely concerned about having everyone believe the same ideas in regards to women. Whether that's anti "slut shaming" or pro hijab, or bringing equity to women (equal outcome vs equal opportunity). If you notice that nearly all modern feminists look, act, and think similarly then I don't think it's much of a coincidence. It seems like a conservative movement now rather than a liberal one.
Or is feminism infiltrating conservatism? I see a lot self described conservative women who say they’re anti-feminist, yet they have a lot of the same feminist talking points. Tomi Lahren in her “men are trash” rants for example. I’m pretty liberal and even I think she was out of line in that tantrum.
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I watched that video after reading your comment, and it was quite the surprise, as I was not aware that Tomi Lahren was so rude towards men. One can have as many expectations from the opposite gender as they want, but calling men trash is unacceptable.
Feminism was about equal rights between the sexes. It was a very liberal concept at the time. There weren't conservative feminists in 60s because conservative women did not support equality. They truly believed women belonged in the home, and anything that threatened their way of life was danger to society.
Today, supporting equal rights between men and women is not a liberal concept. A woman with conservative values can most definitely be a feminist.
There's nothing wrong with a feminist being scantily clad. If that's her choice, more power to her. The freedom to choose for herself and be in control of her own life was the whole point.
You've misunderstood my question. Do you support the ban on grid girls, bikini competitions? Do you think sexual expression in the media needs to be lessened? Do you think the Hijab is a symbol of feminism?
I had to look up grid girl. I assume they were banned because they are family events, so children are in the audience. Role models for little girls, bla bla bla. From that angle, I understand the ban. But those women were not being forced to wear clothing they weren't comfortable. It was they're choice and they have that right.
Bikini competitions are still a thing? Again, those women want to compete. Feminism doesn't mean you can't flaunt your body if you want to. You're in control of your life.
Western women see the hijab as a symbol of oppression. We assume it's forced upon Muslim women, but that's not the case. Excluding fundamentalists, Muslim women choose to wear a hijab. It's a symbol of their identity and honors their faith.
Personally, I dont know how I politically identify but, I do think feminism is expanding more women are seeing that the idea of feminism is meant to be chosen, if a woman chooses to practice Islam and thus, she chooses to wear a hijab that's her choice and feminism is meant to support that choice. That's why you see a lot of women from different backgrounds support the idea of being pro-choice but don't get abortions themselves.
The philosophy behind feminism is meant to study what is the best political movement and concept to support for women and at the same time men
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I believe in being inclusive, but I still don't believe that conservative/religious women can be feminists. Before being a movement about equality between men and women, feminism is a liberal movement that is solely compatible with a liberal society. No conservative idea is compatible with feminism, which is why conservative women have opposed feminism throughout history. Conservatism is a product of religion, without religion, conservatism is nowhere to be found in throughout history, and religion is a patriarchal ideology, and a patriarchal ideology cannot work alongside feminism.
Let's take the issue of abortion as an example. Some women think abortion is murder, but still believe that women should have the right to be able to have an abortion. These women see their views as being of tolerance. However, if a woman thinks of an act as murder, but at the same time allows others to engage in that act, does that not mean that she is allowing murder?
Another example is of the Hijab. Let's suppose a woman chooses to wear a Hijab, that seems like a free choice made by a woman, which sounds quite feminist. The question is though, why does she want to wear the Hijab? What is her reason to cover her head? Is it because she thinks it's better than not covering her head? Does that not imply that she believes women who do not cover their head are somehow lesser?
If she does not believe it's good to cover her head, but still chooses to cover her head, then it begs the question, why does she choose to do something that she believes is not good?
There is no sensible reason to cover ones head. The only reason one can think of as to why a woman would cover her head is because her religion said so. If she chooses to wear a Hijab because her religion said so, then does that not mean that she is choosing to be subservient to a patriarchal ideology. If a feminist claims to be fighting the patriarchy, while simultaneously chooses to submit herself to a patriarchal ideology, does that not beg the question of how authentic of a feminist she is?
You can read about the concept of "reversing the stigma": most feminist women wearing the hijab do it because white men are constantly saying on every TV ever that doing it is a sign of submission. The word queer is born of reversing a stigma, lots of communities "steal" a stigma to transform it into a strengh and make it theirs, so dominant/normative groups can't use it against them anymore, while they feel a strong sense of unity among marginalized people. Nerds, geeks, otakus did it, all slurs at the base for exemple.
As a former radical anti-theist that only started to understand why we needed to tolerate spirituality on the left because I was being the bigoted one with those "old dudebros marxism" ideas, the only thing I can tell you is: listen to queer christians, muslim feminists, pagan feminists, liberation theologists, chritian anarchists etc... and you will understand why they're not infiltrated bigots, they're not a threat, they're not conservative etc... and they'll always be a minority, they have their own way to cope with our neoliberal dystopia and the new challenges of the quest for meaning in a would where god is dead, but some will want to redefine it, others will want to stay true to their cultural roots without the bigotry but with the spirituality, and they'll wear their hijab, cross, or practice their magic for so long as we tell them "you're not real feminists" because Marx said religion bad blablabla.
Also the "essence" of conservatism is idealism, the philosophy opposed to materialism, religion is only ONE way to be essentialist, and most modern conservatism prays Nietzsche more than God in Europe (and soon in the Us), all their "reason" made of essentialized biology used fallaciously to deny social structures is essentilaism, idealism, and they'll pretend they're rational pragmatic and us emotional snowflakes. Religion is already old chool for bigots, if like I used to be, you only see religion as form of right, you'll miss the forest behind the tree.
Dude... We live in an age where "slut shaming" is a bat thing, and onlyfans is common place. This is a result of modern feminism.. It's anything BUT conservative... When it comes to banning porn & shit, that was more of an older concept.. The dumb bitches of 2020 see sex work as some sort of bullshit "liberation" movement, and if you speak against it you have "iNTerNAliZeD mYSogeNY".
Slut-shaming is only considered bad if the woman is liberal. I've seen liberals slut-shaming Melania Trump and Kayleigh McEnany and it's considered acceptable because they're not liberal so apparently they're fair game.
@mistixs really? among the majority of cunts, you'd be considered human scum if you slut shamed hitler lmfao. bunch of virtuous specks of shit.. they really go all out with the virtue signalling.
Feminism has become totalitarian and will not suffer any dissenters.
But - Feminism Has Liberated Men by insisting that women are physically equal to men and do not need men. So men have taken that to mean that they no longer have to marry, they can take jobs that give them just enough earnings to be comfortable, by not having to support a family, to not do killing amounts of overtime working more hours than living, take on debt through mortgages, they can pursue any hobby, just being a bachelor and interacting or not with women as the mood takes them. Well done feminists you created this and you are now learning about the law of unintended consequences.
modern feminist movement has been corrupted over the years. because the original idea got most of what they wanted. yet once they got that they kept trying to get more and more. which is why current laws in western culture favor women much more often them men.
Feminism has become almost indistinguishable from Far Left Authoritarianism. Just look at how they treat female public figures who dare disagree with any of the movements currently ensnared in the Far Left Authoritarian dogma. They're excommunicated and socially shamed by the same women who claim to be "fighting for all women's rights".
You're asking as if Feminism was one specific movement, as if it was something like an organization or a club with specific rules. There's vastly different forms of Feminism. In fact, I can hardly think of any ideological term that is as diverse as Feminism when it comes to its beliefs. That being said, the vast majority of Feminists I get to meet (and I meet a lot, because it's just very common) definitely fall under the category of "liberal".
I don't call myself a feminist, but I fully support feminism. The term is misunderstood. If you're a feminist, it's assumed you hate men. It's not a competition, the exact opposite in fact.
@Yanifah to be honest I don't really know what modern feminism is. I only know it's heavily pro-abortion and I'm not really sure I can get down with that. But I definitely support equality, equal pay for equal work, and stuff like that.
Pro-abortion? I think you mean pro-choice. Important distinction. I don't think it's a choice I could make, but who am I to tell other women what to do with their bodies. As long it's not used as a method of birth control, your choice.
@Yanifah I get that. I'm just a (dysfunctional) Catholic and kinda feel strongly about that type of thing. I've wavered back and forth over the years on whether it should be legal, you know? I've just always felt it's not right on a moral level.
@Yanifah I get that. It's just sometimes I feel like if it's a human being there isn't really a right to kill them, but at the same time I totally understand how terrifying it can be to think you're pregnant and not know what to do next. It's such a delicate issue.
@Yanifah maybe. I don't attend mass anymore, and I've slept with my fair share of guys, though I still feel like I have a relationship with God. It's just a difficult topic for me. I don't vote on the issue it's just a conflicted emotional mess of a political conversation for me I'd prefer not to unravel.
I thought it was conservative women who engaged in bikini contest and all that jazz and that it was the leftist women who were against them. Barring perhaps born againers...
Just so i know what you mean when you say that you are "anti-feminist". You dont think that females should have the same rights as men or have similar treatmemt. Ex. narrowing the gender pay gap.
I believe that women should only be equal to men under the laws but we must always respect the fact that men and women are different physically and mentally, god created us like that and nature carved us like that...
A woman should get the same treatment as men well tbh, women are treated better then men in many places but i'm not against it if the woman respects a man and is devouted to him, also cherish him and love him...
About the pay gap, i personally believe that a woman should become a housewife after marriage and it was, still and should remain her basic role, but as we know that some women do not like this role or the man cannot afford it which means that the wife must work outside, in this situation the girl will get paid the same income as a man if she gives and works the same as a man!
You cannot go absent because of your menstruation cycle or because your pregnant and than asks to get the same income! Be happy that a woman who gets pregnant these days is being paid without working! What else and more do you want?
Also women do not work in all of the men domains such as hard working jobs which means that they aren't contributing equally, this also means that you cannot have rights as much as he have...
Imagine yourself working all your life and building your house from your own money and went through the impossible to achieve it so at the end someone puts in it some windows and doors and now is arguing with that half of the house is for him, funny isen't it? 😏
I dont think your arguments make much sense to me or apply to my situation. But eveyone is entitled to their own opinion. Where are you from, if you dont mind me asking?
@ririissleepy i'm not seeking to make you agree with my ideology and i don't even know what your situation is, i'm just speaking my mind and my own humble opinion...
I know why your asking to know from where i'm from, so that you can say OH I KNOW WHY YOUR LIKE THAT! 😂😂
Anyways i'm from the middle east, from a small country called Lebanon, now you can make fun as much as you want...
Just one more thing, be sure that i do not represent my country's ideology or views because in my country a lot of people oppose me with their views...
I was just asking to get a better picture of what your situation is like as our environment definitely influence our beliefs and views. I mean "oh i know why you're like that" is a way to describe it i guess... i hope you are not too offended.
I am a business major and studying at a university with 75%males forced me to deal with sexism. My partner and i are both persuing jobs on a managerial level (where I see no diffenece in performance between the genders but still a drastic paygap) and plan on having a rather equal and balanced homelife.
For me and the "world i live in" feminism is a necessity. Meaning equality between the genders.
@ririissleepy good for you... If you and your boyfriend agreed like this, so be it! You can never have a balanced life at home if the 2 couples are working full time outside, just my opinion and you will see later in your life that i'm right!
I don't care about your profession because it's your profession who makes you, YOU! It's YOU who makes your profession!
About the paygap, like i said if you work the same as him, same days, same hours and gave the same results than you surely deserves an equal pay!
Your free to live your life the way you want it but respect other people's ways of life too!
Since we are not planning on having kids i dont see how both people working would ever be a problem. Even if it was it would not be a question of gender. So NO i dont think that "i will see that you are right!".
I still dont get why you identify as anti-feminist though. You said that you do belive that i would deserve a equal treatment and that's all feminism is about. Be indifferent about it if you want but why be against it. I am just trying to understand your point of view.
Ps. I only mentioned my line of work to illustrate my situation. Which is a rather male-dominant environment where skills between genders dont differ and where gender SHOULD not play a role in regards to payment.
@ririissleepy because your a true feminist and feminism these days ain't at all the way your claiming it...
I'm also an anti feminist because like i said that i do not believe that men and women are the same, they are different and i believe in gender roles, a man is a man and woman is a woman...
Personally i never accept to marry a girl who wants to work after marriage and thank god that i'm financially capable...
I believe that the man is the head of the house, which means that the woman must submit not because she is forced to but because of her love and respect towards her husband!
A housewife should be at home, warm, comfortable and safe and do not have to think of jobs, incomes and paying the bills cause it's the man's duty, her job is to do the house chores, cook delicious meals, take care of her husband and kids, also to make her husband as her 1st priority always...
When a girl enters a male dominated profession, she must be respected and treated with a professional way, no harrasssing and no sexual acts and the guys aren't allowed to take advantage of her because she is a human being and that's where i say that men and women are equal!
I'll see if she's working as hard as a man and the same amount of time as a man and giving the same results, than for sure she's going to get paid the same, her gender does not mean she gets a lower income... her work says if she will earn less or equal or even more!
On the other hand, a devoted housewife should be appreciated, cherished and treated like a queen sine she's treating her husband like a king, no one will dare to harrass her or tell her that she ain't doing nothing, every person who under estimates a housewife will be punished and might serve some time in prison...
A housewife is a role that is so much respected and supported by me...
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