What makes you afraid to discuss politics?

[razelove]

I thought about this obsession with Twitter and FB as freedom of speech goes... but we operated just fine without them, and using our words and letters to speak and argue before.

What changed, when did we form our camps and extremist groups that won't consider the other part of the same species?

Is the threat a physical one, existential, or unwillingness to communicate?

[nightdrot]

Actually, I am not afraid to discuss politics. If for no other reason than that I work in politics for a living so it is kind of hard to escape it. That said, like any topic, appropriateness of circumstances and good manners are the guiding lights.

In circumstances where such discussion is not really appropriate - say a child's birthday party (with three I have done to, and been to, a few over the years), a wedding, or other such situations - I refrain from talking about it. Obviously at work, or perhaps at a dinner party IF THE HOST RAISES IT IN DISCUSSION (emphasis added.), or in a similar situation then I will raise political talk.

Also, I try to be sensitive to people's individual viewpoints and if I have - say for example - a Democrat friend over amongst my Republican friends, then I will avoid it again. This to avoid a situation where a guest may feel ganged up on or some such. That, of course, depends upon knowing who you have in your home or other social setting.

One on one, with friends - Democrats or Republicans - I am pretty open. Albeit always taking care to keep the tone civil and modulated and again, with a keen awareness of circumstance.

However, the above rules apply not just to politics, but to ANY social situation. It is called civilized living and good manners and it appears to have been something that is being lost in American culture. That culture, with its populist tilt and grotesque self-absorption, cannot imagine that when the individual has something to say that he or she should not say it and expect all others to bend the knee.

Thus, the rathole that is current American political discourse. Oh, and American media and so much else. With a hardy dollop of slander and epithets thrown into the mix. See also "racist" and "socialist" as two hardy perrennials.

Yes, politics is important and emotions can run high. However, once upon a time, people were expected to control their emotions and - when they broke the rules - to graciously apologize. It being well to remember, as the columnist George F. Will wrote decades ago, "Politics is important and serves a vital jurisdiction, but it is not central to things that make for a good life. Cheerful children, feisty friends and a strong bullpen."

A little perspective and a proper sense of decorum and respect goes a long way. When you observe those rules, 99% of the time there is no reason to be afraid to discuss politics. Therefore I never am.

[razelove]

Lovely. I'm going to copy that down if you don't mind. It aligns well with ideas I have problems articulating. What do you think led to that decline in courtesy, and straight rejecting it from some?

Call me strange, but I think a lot of it is drifting far away from religion, no matter what you believe. That's a solid framework on how to treat not just others, but yourself with respect. I can still debate with atheists who believe strongly in not believing, same with Christians, Muslims or Jews. It's those who don't have well defined beliefs, or morals that I find retreat into themselves and make things personal more swiftly.

Maybe that's just the people I know though. What's your opinion on why that would break down from the ideal you mentioned?

[nightdrot]

Thanks for your kind comment. As to your point about religion is not strange, but it is oddly secondary. In fact, the cause of the decline in courtesy and manners is, in many respects, the same force that is causing a decline in religion.

The driving force in the culture is an ascendant populism and related individualism. That populism is defined by a distrust in established institutions, a distrust of elites, the primacy of the individual as the judge of his/her own virtues, this conducing to a sort of cultural egoism. Suddenly the emphasis is on "authenticity." "Do your own thing," and suchlike.

You will note the recent survey data indicated a decline in participation in religious services and religion as an institution, but NOT a decline in the belief of God. In effect, the cultural attitude is that we make God in whatever image suits us, whereas belief in established religion obliges the individual to conform into a historically ratified sense of God.

CONT.

[nightdrot]

Manners are similarly affected. They become not an obligation to one's fellows as an individual worth of respect and dignity, but rather an encumbrance on one's self-expression. So the individual "speaks his mind" regardless of who is offended by it and the devil take the hindmost.

This then conducing the rough and tumble culture we see. Indeed, we have been here before. See also the cultural tumult of the 60s and 70' and even the 1920s. The difference this time being that the technology has a splintering effect - unlike the technology of the previous generation which, it was feared, tended to be a homogenizing force and thus there was, especially in the 60s, a fear of too much conformity.

There is actually more to it, but that explains it in outline given the space limitations. This will, as the 60s and 70s became the more tranquil 80s and 90s, calm after a while. People grow tired of tumult.

However, the real long term problem that the stock of common ethics is depleted with time, particularly as the education system fails to reinforce it. People after a time take for granted their cultural norms and they begin to waste away. There is no way to say that the Western world is there yet - "we know not the day, nor the hour" and duty requires that we carry on. However, it is well to remember.

[nightdrot]

P. S. One last quick note. A lot of the decline in modern manners has its origins in the ideas of the Enlightenment. Those ideas suggested that man was basically a social and rational being who was corrupted by the pre-rational institutions and identities of society.

Strip these away and make law and custom in conformance with man's natural rights, and man will live in spontaneous peace and harmony with his fellows. However, as Burke pointed out, man stripped of his cultural and historical heritage is "reduced to his naked shivering nature."

Rousseau called man "the noble savage." To which Burke replied that the savagery was obvious, but the nobility was more problematic.

Suffice to say, how we got to where we are traces back to the very origins of modern Western civilization,. The Enlightenment brought many benefits, not least the belief in natural rights and the like. However, as with all things made by man, it was not an unmixed blessing.

[Floppy2112]

It seems like a chicken or egg situation. Did manners decline because or political strife or vice versa? I don’t know. I what has been displayed is that from bad manners to violence negatively is an effective political weapon. Why? Because good people did nothing when it started. I can digress, but I really do boil it down to a lack of struggle. We are more materialistically advantaged than at anytime in history. We have more actual peace than at any other time in history. And people are angrier and unhappier than at anytime in history.
What is clear is that human flourishing has nothing to do with happiness. So that theory is out the window.
I think lack of religion has something to do with it. But I would venture to say religious zealotry is at an all time high as well. But the objects of worship are identity not God.
And people are not grateful for the bed they sleep in, the air conditioning they enjoy the food they eat, etc. it’s all granted now.
People have the luxury to be mad, nobody taught them what lack and scarcity is. They have no purpose they have no meaning so it must be the other guy’s fault.

I can deal with the rudeness but the violence has to stop. I don’t think it will, nobody takes it seriously. It’s going to get worse.

[nightdrot]

@Floppy2112 Just a couple of quick notes.

Your observation on religious zealotry - at least in the Western world - is not correct. In the Muslim world it experienced something of an upsurge as a reaction to Western cultural influences. However, even that seems to be mellowing, such that Saudi Arabia - the keeper of the Muslim holy places and a country that has typically been highly sensitive to religious influences, has felt relatively free to seek talks with Israel.

In any case, as far as the West, the USA remains the most expressly religious society in the Western world and even there it is in decline - at least insofar as organized religion is concerned.

As far as material comfort, there is some truth in what you say. However, it is worth noting that the Western world was, by far, at its most riven in the aftermath of the Great Depression. See also World War II, and of course crime and civil violence was on the rise in that period. So here again, there is no necessary correlation.

The current situation is mostly, as I alluded, an outgrowth of a combination of new technologies heightening a certain social distancing - there being no irony in that it was expected to the opposite - combined with a rising populist individualism. Once elites and institutions are not, by definition, trustworthy, they lose the capacity to set, however informally, cultural norms.

At any rate, your last point is more wish than fact. It is highly unlikely that a society that increasingly shouts at the top of its' lungs will find the self-discipline and social trust necessary to restraining violence. Indeed, here is one case where there is no doubt. The decibel level went up and only in time did the violence increase as well.

Manners are both a reflection of, and a reinforcement of, the bonds of social connectedness. Where that falls apart, tranquility is not likely to follow.

[razelove]

Unfortunately that sounds about right. Simply talking with people was much easier with landlines, more easy, but more distant when everyone had tom as a friend on MySpace. The outgrowths from there, deviantart, and what not were similar. More connections, more superficial relationships. Oh well, we'll all be speaking Mandarin or Hebrew in the not so distant future if we continue on our passive aggressive route of self-destruction. And really, I have nothing against Jewish or Chinese culture, so it would affect me and mine little as some of them already speak Mandarin and I'm circumcised lol

[Floppy2112]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by zealotry. I am not referring to classical religions. I am referring to the cult of the woke. In every way it resembles religious zealotry to a godless ideology. Forced compliance, purging of apostates. Repetitions of phrases and sloganeering, etc. I, in no way mean there is a an actual religious renewal. People are replacing religion with ideology and protating, literally prostrating themselves before those who they believe to represent that ideology the best. For lack of a better term, I call it the cult of the woke. It can also be called intersectionality, tribalism, or postmodernism.
For the result of purging God from their lives, they have filled the vacuum with incredibly destructive ideologies and are forcing it on the population by any means necessary.
It's what Nietzsche predicted in his 'Death of God' writings.
The loss of God left a God sized hole in their hearts, and they filled it with destructive ideology instead.

And as far as 'human flourishing' is concerned, it is true. It is absolutely true that more people possess materialistic wealth by both number and percentage, than ever before in history. Feel free to peruse the stats at: https://www.HumanProgress.org​

[Sensmind]

I back away from political discussion just because it has become too aggressive - It does genuinely feel that people believe the argument is won by the person who shouts the loudest - As far as I can recall in my 50 plus years on this planet, I don't think I have ever seen anyone change their views in a political discourse - Especially in this day and age, you are drip fed by your sources of choice to a brainwashed state - I genuinely crave a neutral, fact centred news source where the two sides can meet, contribute without histronics - I will not say which way I lean only to say both sides are equally as guilty of degenerating political discourse into the gutter.

[razelove]

So that's happening in Ireland as well, not just the US? The lack of objectivity and rejection of facts disgusts me as well. "Show them what they want" is not news, that's entertainment.

[Sensmind]

Thanks for MHO

[Maissilapsi]

I'm afraid it's largely due manufactured divide take too far, which is driving people off the cliff and into extreme, often identity, positions. It's manufactured there for certain purposes. Mainly opportunistic purposes but also deliberatepolitical tactic to gain more political power. I doubt it was supposed to get us using civil war rhetoric. (need to consult Newt Gingrich on that, he's credited for playing the key role on political polarization by a great number of scholars) In my way Civil War rhetoric is caused by new players who saw an opportunity to have things their way abusing the existing divide and tearing it wider for their own benefit by throwing gas in all small sparks in society instead of fixing things as it'snot guaranteed to succeed. It has gotten to level where a sausage or gun is an identity same way nationality can be. Why else would rational people explode in furious rants on social media whenever legislation that somehow thinly touches these, literally objects, is presented? Only explanation I can come up with is that they feel personally attacked, the object is part of their political identity.

On the other hand there's politicians and other leaders who never went through democratic screening getting away from worst crimes with slap on the wrists while the poor guy gets decade of slave labor over stealing something needed to survive. The injustice creates the internet mobs ready to make anyone they can to face, if not justice, then at least online justice. It could be something you've said or done in past and which you apologise for, but it's never good enough for the online mob. One wrong word comes from your mouth and apology stops meaning something.

Mentality like that requires strong motivations. I can imagine politician who cause the conditions for parents getting on each others throats daily to suicide of close family member, who then walks off to fame and success despite breaking all promises to fix problems which were hot air from the start can easily create such strong motivations to get at least some justice. No matter where it's from...

All this, (plus more most likely) creates very hostile environment to talk about politics. And vast majority of people want to life in peace, minding their own business and not get targeted by some paramilitant identitarians or have their personal lives spread across internet and then trialled, judged and sentenced for eternity in condemnation.

Solution is another topic though...

[razelove]

That's a tough one. Only solution I can think of would be for both sides to break away from the two party narrative and simply vote on the issues they think are important, rather than snowballing them into identity packages. The voters that is, not the politicians. The faith in them really confuses me.

[Maissilapsi]

Trick is how to make politicians in US Congress accountable for the people that voted them in, or the vast masses of working class folk.

Your only solution is pretty spot on, in technical terms it would means upgrading the currently used 2 hall Congress, that's ancient model, to a parliament. Parliaments have several parties that create coalitions and voter chooses a coalition of parties that are ideologically on same page. Meaning that a parliament creates ideological arm wrestling mostly on left-right axis while centrists hovering around somewhere between, usually picking the side that winning...

So what's the trick ideologies does to the politicians then?

They guard the opposing ideology, they alert the press, they alert, you, your mom, your moms mom, you moms baby mama... the entire planet stops spinning the second a politician in parliamentary system gets dirt or political incompetence of members of opposing ideology.

This is missing in US Congress. There are two parties but one ideology: Neoliberalism. I define it as ideology think-tanks pulled out of their ass.. -ets in... in... an industry...(not sure what the language policy is here yet so I try to keep spicy takes to myself) to justify de facto leadership positions of society to those with most money instead of democratic screening... i need to work on the definition more but anyway, 2 parties + 1 ideology = 0 accountability, the parties actually help each others on keeping both in power.

Remember what Biden said after Capitol Hill Putsch? USA needs strong Republican party, if there was any kind of ideological difference he would've said USA doesn't need Republican party...

[razelove]

I take it as a given that the two parties are one and the same for those who are "in" rather than recently elected, or in an area likely to be contested. They simply target different demographics for appeal. Obama promised to do something about torture and the wars W started... and implemented extraordinary rendition along with harsher torture that we leased out to our NATO allies lol

[Maissilapsi]

There's couple distinguishable ideologies currently rushing into Congress, or Status Quo, to fill the power vacuum carved by Neoliberalism that swallowed both parties. There's social democrats (Bernie, AOC etc) from left and few right-wing bourgeois and far right ones. Bourgeoisie can be divided to Liberal and Conservatives but which make the current one ideology 2 parties setup and then far right which is taking over GOP. Although that remains to be seen, Trumpian fascism or Trumpism ran out of steam pretty much already and far right generally stick to winners. Much depends on how masses feel their economic prospects during the next elections and type of candidate GOP runs will we see another try of some proto-fascist to create a movement (Crenshaw worries me a bit, or some surprise popping up from ranks of military) or will GOP become mixed bag of bourgeois Liberals and Conservatives (like it was until 90's) and Democrats become truly a left-wing of Congress tossing the Clinton-Obama axis Neoliberalism in the bin...

[razelove]

I think once Pelosi is gone they will drop the veneer and go full left, and lose the center. Same with once Mitch McConnel is gone, the right will fracture. He's the glue that keeps together center to hard right. Pelosi does the same on the left, but the dems have more cohesion.

[Maissilapsi]

You make great point. Democrats has already largely changed on local, city, county level towards some... say, European socialdemocrats. They're not anti capitalists but have more of a Keynesian economic policies

[Maissilapsi]

GOP however rides on disruption elefants like Marjorie Greene etc which people think will cause most damage on Capitol Hill

[razelove]

The GOP kind of has to do that. For all you can say about the left, they have cohesion and an identity. The right has lacked any cohesion or real goals for about 30 years now. What, George Bush Sr. having clear goals on foreign affairs... and little else, then getting decimated later for overlooking, you know, the country he's governing.

[Maissilapsi]

Right has that top-down command structure they can use at civil wars etc, just about whenever the fascists has won civil war as an example of it being used, also today when Left throws rope the Right pipeline down a message that says "it's a trap, Left want you dead" and they feel threatened right now because GOP scared them insane so the Right falls in line and take orders (narrative) to write online and that's how it'll be as long GOP is some neoliberal-cryptofascist identity dog whistle

[Ditto626]

I was in college surrounded by self-centered, highly opinionated, and highly obnoxious smug liberals. My field is also full of liberals and they have no problem with being fascists as long as they can continue to believe they're right. People get pushed out of their jobs and are dur off from friends and family. The thing that pisses me off the most is that liberals don't even pay attention to who they voted for. I should know, I thought I was a democrat. I voted for Obama in 2012 and I regret my vote. I didn't care for Romney either but I wish I would've stayed home because Obama was not what he portrayed himself to be. Biden and Harris aren't either. But people just follow the crowd because the "News" media, celebrities, and dumb articles in social media tells them what to think and all they have to do is throw buzz words like racism or sexism to make the low information voters to fall in line to avoid being seen as those things. It disgusts me. As soon as Biden was sworn in people went back to not paying attention again because it isn't Trump. I hate this country.

[razelove]

I love this country, everything it was, and everything it can be. I just hate the vulnerable situation we're in right now over fear. We're 20 years out from 9/11, and we didn't hunker down like this from terrorist attack, we fought back against every single person we thought might possibly maybe be involved. We tore through their countries like Montazuma's revenge tearing through a tourist's bowels.

Covid hits and we're little bitches. Trump gets yelled at for doing the most basic of tasks, shutting infected people out. There aren't as many liberals in STEM, that one was strange to me in school, take for granted being able to talk, having to try hard to get into a girl's pants, then have to go take a class in the English or arts building, opposites day lol

[MCheetah]

I'm not. I just know many people nowadays, especially on the left, are too hyperbolic and immature to discuss politics rationally or logically. I am of the belief that 99% of politicians don't care about you and never will. Obama taught me that. The best you can hope for is someone who SEEMS like a good person, on the surface (like Tulsi Gabbard) and hope they don't get too corrupted down the line.

As far as Trump goes, I liked him over time even though I didn't in 2016. I felt him as a common ally against bigger, more powerful forces. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" saying. I feel like Trump was that, but more so, he embodied everything about American values and the Constitution: being a loudmouth and arrogant, but getting sh*t done!

Trump was a rare wildcard in politics. Which is why they wanted to make sure another Trump would never happen again, going so far as to try to impeach him twice AFTER blatantly, 100% stealing the 2020 election. Even WHEN they have someone who checks off most of the diversity checkboxes, like Tulsi Gabbard, they'll still throw them under the bus for not being the corrupt trash they are.

Politicians are among the worst people in society. But the sad reality of humanity is, most of them are too stupid to NOT have politicians or royalty rule over them. People love being slaves, no matter what they'll tell you. And I'll never be afraid to point that out.

[razelove]

I agree, though I didn't vote in that election (didn't know shit about Trump, and no way in hell was I voting for Hillary), he's not someone I'd want to be BFFs with as he said some stupid and caustic stuff on a regular. He still accomplished a lot with both hands tied behind his back though. The irony to me is convincing the black community to hate him after the prison reforms, and lifting more people out of poverty then, hell, anyone I can think of.

I just wish we had more than two parties, and that both weren't so obviously working with each other to establish control over us. Personally I trust corrupt politicians. I know what sways them, their motives, and how they'll represent me based on the highest bidder. It's how we vote in Louisiana, and our politicians represent us viciously, lest they lose their office and get investigated lol

[HiveBee]

The left will become a tyrant. Freedom is evil. Authority, force, and coercion are viewed as necessary and justified.

Anyone who disagrees should be afraid. Their jobs, livelihoods, physical safety, values, cultures and so on will soon be under attack, if not already as we already see with a variety of examples.

There is no point in discussing politics with violent, rage and hate filled leftists.

And I know. I used to be one. You couldnt tell me shit. I was filled to the brim with hate and rage against anyone who disagreed with me.

Anyone who disagreed with me was a bigot. Or some other form of amoral or evil person. I knew that the only way to bring about the best life for all people, was government intervention. To force people to act as I believed they should.

Sounds like some jihad shit. But we saw the mentality that I had for 30 years, back when communism had its heyday. Where anyone with some money was murdered and ideological heretics were sent to prison.

Will the left of today careen and spiral back to the same mistakes they made in the past?

I think they will.

[Maissilapsi]

I believe you've mixed the left with something else entirely. Those aren't leftist positions, those are exact opposite positions than the left has today or has had in the past, at least since Lenin and Bolshevik October revolution in 1917. Lenin himself called Soviets right-communists and wrote an essay or book about how the global left had "infantile disorder" for not supporting his violent revolution.

Actual revolution, when Bolsheviks conquered Petrograd (Formerly Leningrad, now St. Petersburg) wasn't actually violent. Only couple Bolsheviks were injured, they probably slipped while drunk. Russian Revolution is said to have lasted from 1917 to 1923 and defeat of royalist White Army, but it saw numerous unhappy leftist and socialist uprisings which were met with Red Army all the way until Hitler launches Operation Barbarossa and Stalin gets an enemy to unite the country against

[razelove]

I don't think intolerant, power hungry bigots are exclusive to the right or left. You can see plenty of people on the right taking advantage of fear to take their own grabs of power that don't help anything. Though the left does have a lot of momentum for wrecking the economy and security of the country in a lasting way.

The counterpart for their extremism now would be if the tea party came on the scene using all means possible.

[Maissilapsi]

If I've understood correctly from what I've seen, the Tea Party which took over the Republican party was actually Astroturfed in the Congress.

This is literally the Golden Age of political science. The bamboozling the public is subjected to will bamboozle political scientists for decades to come. Like, how did they get people to defend them, even with their own lives and ready to take lives of others, by lying and getting caught repeatedly on those lies, yet getting re-elected with good margins...

Well actually, weapon grade identity politics, online conspiracy theory campaigns, Astroturf, good ol" fashioned propaganda in new clothes aka fake news media etc all ade possible by the postmodernist obfuscation according which everything can be sold to the highest bidder, it'll be good, bo harm can happen when the democratic institutions are someones private property... Except the refeudalisation of society that we're staring mouth open right now

[razelove]

@Maissilapsi You're assuming there will be political scientists or history of this. The scariest part I'm seeing is the rejection of objectivity from both sides. That means rejecting math and science. It is very easy to lose a golden age and fall into a dark age of feudalism as you mentioned. It has happened to many other societies with more power. Look at the spread of Islam, the huge leaps in chemistry, math, and architecture. Then the collapse. Modern day that momentum is building again.

China likewise had a collapse due to the British introducing opium and invading. Now they're entering a golden age, we have had several in the west. From war, arms races, information technology... and now we're so convinced of our invincibility that we don't see how we're hacking away at our own civilization.

[Maissilapsi]

China could have beaten European colonialists on conquering the world, but it fell inside and locked itself for centuries from outside world consideringit having nothing to offer for the Empire, in fact when the British came to buy tea first times the Chinese tried to communicate using Latin, language they used on trading with the Roman Empire, thousand years ago. The collapse had already happened by the British arrived they just "sealed the deal", more or less figuratively.

Although all empires ever has needed some outside catalyst to put an end to them and there's never some sudden crash. Death of an empire like for example Roman, was several hundred years of slowly crumbling as it was such a monumentally large project to deal with tools and knowhow available for them. Suddenly they found themselves in position where infra outside the regional capital cities were in so bad shape the land was largely in undefendable condition and to avoid getting ran over by the Ostrogoths etc they paid astronomical ransoms, and got ran over by them anyway...

Although USA jas had couple defeats lately on words arena, it's still de facto ruler of world with petrodollar backed by military overpower unlike ever seen on earth. Chinese soft power isn't soft enough to have an impact on US dominance globally. There's lessons countries learn when they've, for example sold China some ports. Greeks say, after selling Pireus Harbor to China when got sick with Troika or ECB IMF and EU parliament that "we thought the neoliberal Troika punishing us can't get any worse but at least they held what was agreed on. Chinese stopped following contracts in a week and fired 2/3 of Pireus harbors domestic workers and brought their own cheap labor and said what you going to do? It's our harbour now".

Although, fascism can trip strong nation for it's inherent need for conflict to seek "natural order of mankind" anti-intellectualism and irrationality among other things

[Floppy2112]

The vial stupidity of the ungrateful. 99.9999% of everybody's stated political beefs can be settled with a little gratitude. Understand how good you have it, versus the very little bad, or often imagined made up bad you think there is.
I don't suffer fools gladly and I am very over sloganeering, virtue signaling and gesturing that so categorizes modern politics. People are too emotional and lack reason. What's fun about that?
I can lay out a very well thought out argument with references and data and in return I get hysterics, name calling and screeching about imagined problems.
All of it is a lack of gratitude.
For instance, did you know that abject poverty, starvation, meaning complete deprivation has been virtually eliminated? It's less than 10% where 30 years ago it was over 30%. And it's not a lack of resources that perpetuate the last remaining areas of abject poverty, it's political. Meaning that the world produces enough food for every person to have at least 2400 calories per day. The only people who do not have access to it live under regimes that will not allow them access to it. But over all isn't that a good thing? Should we not be grateful for that?

[razelove]

I'm never sure if that's more one of the causes of the current BS, or one of the symptoms, how thin-skinned people are by and large. Like harsh words will kill them. I'm torn between that, identity politics, and confirmation bias as we haven't had any of the three as severely as we have the last 15 years or so.

The ability to isolate into a group of homogenous people and separate from reality is a pretty new one. You know, besides literally isolating as a tribe which is no longer possible.

[Floppy2112]

You can do it, if you are willing to live where no one else is willing to. I am willing to bet there were tribes in Siberia who never had a clue they lived in a place called the Soviet Union.

[zed-789]

I’m not afraid. But I choose my words carefully when talking to certain people sometimes. Because people nowadays hate when others have a different opinion from them. To many people get so worked up to be “right” that instead of keeping an intelligent and informative conversation, it quickly turns into threats, assumptions and hate. If 2 people r on opposite sides of the playing field y can’t they have a great conversation understanding and hearing each other’s point of view? But nope always turns into the challenge of “I’m right, ur wrong, fuck u for not agreeing.”

[razelove]

I wish I could say you're wrong, but there are issues I get the same way over, only one coming to mind is guns, but I'm sure there are others that I get bent on and simply don't realize it. When there can be dialogue I do enjoy that though. There's a lot to learn from people who live in different worlds.

[flamiE]

I’ve given up long time ago. People tend to not even listen to you and jump straight into telling you how stupid you are for disagreeing with them and how dare you trying to give them a different point of view and change their mind lol it’s like by the end of the discussion you both have to agree to disagree when in reality it can be pretty fluid. I like to make people understand me and my way of thinking and not necessarily convince them I’m right. If it happens in the process, cool but that’s not the goal. You can support someone else but I respect you and your opinion. Also people normally get really passionate while having such discussions and I don’t really like that.

[razelove]

I get everything except the dislike of passion. One of the points of getting involved there is having strong morals or beliefs that align with what a candidate, bill, or law is for/against.

Can't say my experience is much different though, where people start repeating the same things louder and louder rather than actually talking. I don't want to convince anyone I'm right, rather I like it more when we can exchange ideas and convince each other that there are holes in our logic. The bullshit, pardon, the bill of goods we're sold by politicians is deeply flawed on both sides. To be able to recognize that on both sides is crucial.

There is no "right" in the solutions the right or left are offering right now, and that's what I view as most important, for people to realize that and try and think together on how to fix these things. Or at least decide together on less than ideal solutions rather than simply dividing into camps and flinging poo at each other like apes.

[flamiE]

I mean it’s understandable how some people can get a little too loud when it comes to defending someone who they believe represents their beliefs. But people have straight up yelled at me and even if they have a point (cause really when it comes to politics it’s never black and white) I can’t even make myself try and listen and eventually agree with them on some of the things because now my brain is busy trying to come up with something to defend myself and my beliefs.

I should’ve worded it better, of course there’s no “right” and “wrong” when it comes to politics. I meant trying to convince them to completely change their view.
And honestly, generally speaking people have forgotten how to communicate effectively, all they do is argue and they forget to even try and make the other understand. It’s all about providing points, throwing arguments at each other and not making each other understand. It feels like war when really it’s about “negotiating”. I’m all about having discussions and not arguing with people.

[razelove]

They probably get the idea that you hold a conversation like that from watching how their influencers talk to each other on Fox and CNN. Rarely are they talking, more often someone gets triggered, or disagrees with a point and just starts yelling something similar to "I'm rubber you're glue motherfucker!" over and over.

[flamiE]

Lmaoo good point

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

Everyone is too radical so it’s annoying to even bother. They don’t even bother to listen and also shove their ideas down people’s throats. I’ve had people nag me on end on why I should vote for Donald Trump. Then on the opposite side of the spectrum been called a heartless bitch when I explain that raising the minimum wage too much could cause business to close/inflations/joblessness , They don’t care I passed 3 accounting classes and learned restaurant cost control , I’m just a heartless bitch.

[razelove]

I'm in the center myself, and get annoyed about assumptions I lean one way or the other. If I do vote one way or the other it's because it's advantageous at the time. Generally we don't get grilled too hard for that one way or the other down here because everyone has guns lol

Minimum wage is a tricky one. Cost of living changes greatly depending on city, suburb, rural, and then the state that each is located in. It creates a perception if you live in a city with high taxes that it should be higher, or if you wind up in a menial job where you are expendable and there is no need or ability to pay higher. I figure let that be set state by state, people will migrate, and business with it. Whatever works best for whatever regions will endure and be replicated.

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

I think it needs to go up but 15 is way too much for NC. For a restaurant labor is typically 20-30% of the cost and it’s the biggest semi-variable expense. It’s scary to me that the average person doesn’t understand accounting and that people don’t have jobs if a business can’t make money.

[razelove]

15/hr here is more than the last job offer I had to manufacture drugs. It does vary very greatly by region. Why would most people understand accounting? Most people are looking to be employees, not employers. They do so not realizing the risk their employer takes on by keeping them as productive employees to turn a profit. If that ever turns from the black to the red it isn't just a few jobs that may be on the block, but an entire service. Why pay more for less performance in one country if you can pay less for the same shitty performance in another?

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

They should teach the basics of it in school so they learn to manage finances , know the basics of entrepreneurship and to not become fucking socialists

[HawkPerception]

Afraid to discuss it? No. A waste of time? Yes. My views are very simple. The current "politics" is a joke. It's just a means to control people with no ability to think for themselves and force themselves to align into certain factions which only help the current system thrive and continue. The current system can easily be changed/revolutionized to be better than it is and more suited to the human soul but no one wants to make that stand even though not many are happy. People can discuss their politics but it's all worthless in my eyes.

[razelove]

I agree with that. In the US both parties are pushing the authoritarian narrative, and their followers line right up saying "At least I'm not those dipshits!". The solution, as I was talking about with someone else here, is simple, more parties centered on issues rather than identity.

That could happen in Canada I think, in the US we're addicted to the "I'm special and these people are all special like me!" narrative, without seeing the irony there...

[The_Maphio]

Nothing really. I'm old enough to understand when my opinion is going to kick the hornet's nest and my skin is thick enough to fight back some dumbass that attacks me with doctrine instead of valid points. In the rare cases of somebody with actual knowledge that can debate, instead, I find stimulation and investment in the exchange, and more often than not, the discussion comes down to a mutual agreement or at the very least, to a respectful agreement on a disagreement.
The problem is the ratio. 1 prepared debater every 1000 dumb fucks who don't even know on what side of the bed they woke up in the morning.

[razelove]

Yeah, you could make two accounts for twitter or reddit and post "The Earth is round, I voted for Trump" "The Earth is round, I voted for Biden"

Fuckers will start tearing down the idea of spheres and Newtonian physics just to prove how righteous "their" cause is.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well I don't fear discussing politics or anything that I feel is the truth. That said, the reason why others fear it is because the far left is a fanatical group that punishes any one who disobeys them and most people are to afraid to stand up to them (statistically on those in the far left feel comfortable discussing politics, moderates and conservatives statistically do not feel comfortable discussing it (because again, the left is violent and they hurt people who disagree with them and try to destroy those who disobey them).

[razelove]

Yeah, as much as both sides yell, I haven't heard of the right doxing and attacking. There are counter protests, people fight, but yeah, I haven't heard of the right going so much on the hire hit men and destroy path. In the left's defense, they do eat their own more often than outsiders though.

[hellionthesagereborn]

The right can be assholes but I will take an asshole over a sociopath any day (and that is precisely what the left is). As for the left eating their own, well that is only because they have eaten all the conservatives and this is what is left (though it is fun to watch them implode like that).

[Citizenkirk]

When I was 17, I had heated discussions about nuclear weapons, and the need for continuing discussion about the necessity of scaling back the number of ICBM's within our nuclear stockpile, at the peace talks in Geneva.

ONE YEAR LATER, I FOUND MYSELF GUARDING ONE, WITH STRICT ORDERS NOT TO TALK PIECE, BUT TO LET MY M16 DO THE TALKING, AS I WAS ORDERED NOT TO LET ANYONE CROSS THAT BARRICADE, AND IF ANYONE TRIES, "TO SHOOT TO KILL!"

[razelove]

Nice, ICBM, more advanced than the minuteman, is it a MIRV?

[Citizenkirk]

Hercules delivery vehicle with a low altitude, below radar level stealth guidance system, intended for medium range deployment within a 10,000 MI targeting resolution, placing North Korea, Japan, and a number of other Asian countries within its range as a last resort doomsday weapon. Not the government's terminology, my terminology, because these things were designed to go off after assets at NORAD and along the Pacific coast have been supposedly destroyed. These things were set to go off automatically if there was no one left alive to initiate a launch sequence manually. I heard that the yield was fairly low on these things, probably no more than a few kilotons, enough to destroy a small City, probably twice as powerful as Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but nothing more than a nuclear fart, compared to the other stuff in our stockpile on the mainland and overseas. These Nike site installations are scattered all along the Kahuku mountain range, starting within Koli Koli pass, all the way past Diamondhead, on the island of Oahu, Hawaii.

[razelove]

That is beautiful. I'd smash it if I wasn't afraid of irradiation, and, you know, being shot. So the first stage is merely to get a good parabolic arc up into the atmosphere, and the second to rain down hell on the target. That is so simple and elegant. All this time I've been making rockets trying to get one to break orbit, when my objective could have been so much more simple...

[Citizenkirk]

You would have had too get past local, state, and tribal police first, too get up that far into the mountains, than survive Blackhawk patrols with Army Rangers and Marine Recon units, than keep your fingers crossed that military assets in training from all four branches weren't putting away their blank adapters and miles gear and locking and loading live amunition and fixing to PVS 7 scopes, with telemetry feeds live from satellite data links, get threw Apache gunship engagements with Army and Marine pilots homing in on your position, thank to the most powerful satalite ground based monitoring system on the planet, feeding real-time Intel to military state and local authorities and me over my PVS - 7 Vincent interlink, with a 40. grenade loaded in my tube, 30 round magazine locked and loaded in the port and chamber, two other guys at my side, SAW (Squad automatic weapon) and M60 ready too rock, with firing resolutions established, just waiting for you too pop your bad ass head up too be instantaneously removed via fragmentation and high speed, high capacity minigun emplacements by the guys behind us, us, and everyone above, around, and on top of, your position, unseen but still there, ready for such unwelcome visitors. If you manage too get a shot off at that missile, you might be suspect of being an extra- terrestrial double agent, or something. No one would ever know, because there wouldn't be enough soft tissue left for autopsy or DNA analysis. This, of course, in 1989 technology.

[Citizenkirk]

Just to clarify, these cruise middles don't go up into the atmosphere and upper stratosphere into escape velocity short of low 🌎🌍 orbit like the MX models, they cruise below the radar blanket at no more than 20 or 30 feet about the water of the ocean surface, at speeds faster than a jet, but slower than an orbital booster rocket would need to go to reach escape velocity. The target would never see it coming.

[razelove]

I was going to say I bet we have higher speed, low drag gear now compared to '89... but then remembered that we still use the sidewinder missile for air to air, developed in the '50s, sometimes the best idea isn't the newest. That would be insane too, I wonder how they get them to avoid any obstacles at that low of altitude, if it isn't going parabolic, with a wing profile that small, it has to be going ludicrously fast to generate enough lift to not simply fall.

[Thedivinechic]

I don't anything on politics. And I definitely don't care for that topic anyways, because people that just blurt out random words about politics actually pretend they sound smart. But really, how they sound to me is ignorant because honestly you could NEVER really know a politicians true heart or motives. One, you don't live with them. Two, you have never met them. Three, you don't know their bad habits, vice, or upbringing. Four, the politicians don't know you. Five, why are you so concerned about this topic? I could go on but you catch my drift. Lol

[razelove]

I agree with 1-4. Especially since part of my interest in politics is knowing how ignorant I am, and searching for objectivity is tough as hell with the polarity and power grabs both sides make. My state is corrupt as hell, so I have no rosy images of politicians trying to help me unless it helps them.

I am concerned about it because it affects my livelihood and family. The motives are completely selfish and not altruistic (outside of my community). If I ever ran for public office I'd say as much... and never get elected lol

[Thedivinechic]

@razelove Hahaha 😂🤭☺️yup, keep raising love

[worldscolide]

i dont discuss politics much because i just hate it.. Its not fear. I hate that one side hates the other so much that they see them as worse than Nazis, when the reality is completely the opposite. I can't stand the woke crowd actively trying to cancel people.

Believe it or not, i had some idiot on FB track down where i work, and attempt to get me fired. It did not end well for her. She is serving a sentence for harassment last i checked, and i still have my job. My company does not bend the knee to the woke crowd.. Oh and this was because i had the audacity to suggest that women and men were already equal, and the majority of what feminists do is whining.

[razelove]

The growing divide between sexes is another, whole different issue. That one kind of dwarves politics, as if we don't reproduce, elections are kind of meaningless.

[purplepoppy]

All too often it degrades into a childish slanging match, libtard, republicunt and so on. People aren't interested in individual policies it's all "oh that's leftist I must automatically hate it..." things tend to turn sour when politics is brought up.

[razelove]

Yeah, we have lost the ability to debate in America past the level of playground insults. I know our politicians are more educated than that. It's probably just an appeal to our deteriorating education system that they use as their whipping boy and wonder why oh why does the performance keep getting worse?

[crmoore]

It started when Trump went into office.

Conventional news media was dwindling, people favoring other online sources, then an abrasive man took office and the media saw an opportunity to keep themselves afloat and they took it. He ran as a republican and was just abrasive enough that they could convince ignorant people that he actually mocks disabled people, calls white supremacists very fine people, or suggests people inject bleach into themselves.

Then over those four years, the media drove some people insane. Those people acted irrationally towards one side, and eventually that side got tired of it. Now we have our camps.

[razelove]

I think it started earlier than that, but yeah, that was the catalyst that got me to start paying attention to politics on a scale wider than simply my region. Also watch more than one news source, read from several.

[crmoore]

You could say it maybe began getting steam prior to Trump but Trump is really when it truly began. In my opinion, at least.

[Jenny4455]

Social media makes it very easy for people to slip into echo Chambers of unchallenged opinions. People also feel safer hiding behind keyboards and abusing people. The relentless propaganda on social media has led to many opinions being viewed as fact 'tell them your truth' is a phrase i hate to see.

[razelove]

I think the echo chambers are an effect rather than a cause. Keyboard warriors though, yeah, if I bring up similar topics on FB using my real name as opposed to here I don't get banned, blocked, or FB jailed, I can just hear the crickets and see emojis and nothing else. Certainly not 40 people responding within 24 hours.

[JackSmy]

What is the point, with the VAST MAJORITY? They are set in their "Ideas" of Truth, and I couldn't give to shakes of a limp dick, what they think.
I know they don't care what I think, however reasoned, and logical, and based on research my opinion might be, so I leave those to the "Drama Queens" to debate, ad nauseum!!

[razelove]

If their skin is that thin, see if the words actually will kill them. If you make a scientific study about that, it could be a good launching point to get people talking again. Though it would look a hell of a lot like an Onion article, the reality that it would take something like that to get the ball rolling for some people to talk is ridiculous.

[sawno]

Only thing that makes me more hesitant than i used to be in real life is the fact that i know the other people in my department at least the two bosses disagree with my political views and i am quite a new employee without a proper contract yet. So any big disagreement could ruin the opportunity. Outside of work i am very politically outspoken, and if asked i would speak my mind honestly. I just don't feel like its the right moment to interact in political discussions at a new job.

[razelove]

I'd avoid it at work unless someone starts cornering you there. My favorite lines at work are "sounds like a personal problem" "Fuck off" "Do your fucking job!" "Consider it done" "I need more funding"

I like to just zone out at work, after work, drinks or what not, sure, I'll down a pitcher of margaritas and we can talk. Otherwise, nope nope nope. I'm there to get paid, and get the fuck out the moment you say I'm not getting paid anymore.

I don't give a shit if you're asking me to click the lights off on the way out. Tape a dime to them, no money, no honey.

[ChrisMaster69]

Mainly because it’s invariably extremists on both sides that get involved, then stuff that’s apolitical suddenly is the cause of one side or the other.

A lot of stuff is the blame of successive governments playing politics and not simply doing the important stuff.

important stuff then becomes a political football, gets diluted by all parties and the end result is shit.

This then forms part of any discussion and no one accepts everyone was to blame

[razelove]

I'd say a minority are extremists, but a majority have paper-thin skin and will take offense to everything. I remember a girl telling me I was being racist and sexist for telling her to do her job, which was washing lab glassware at the moment. So I stopped for a minute, thought, then said "I'm sorry, I misspoke, do the fucking job you're being paid for now." I might have gotten written up for being offensive, but she washed the dishes.

The only political football I'm really worried about that has been tossed back and forth by both parties and used like a 20 dollar hooker is education. Our education is simply horrible in the US for the amount of money going into it. Just sitting at home reading books with my kids and encouraging them to write, draw, and count has them surpassing the school curriculum, and it isn't much effort or time. The spending chart I'll post illustrates that point well, cost per student, Louisiana funds our schools and students pretty highly, but consistently ranks lowest in education, and very low in income you can earn getting out of school.

spending-


social mobility-
lh4.googleusercontent.com/g5Nuiyvr7BGBmfT63OtUvSAr2kMJL3GlVzAyuX6fi5_A1zRVjbV_X3HQpUpxVmecNU8nN4roqOg5fCO6h8yL9ZpnJostNg4WdlLf7zBnsyR4PLk9ZDXv5zyqZaysbXk2C8zAun3s

people actually caring about why we rank 50th and gaining no traction-
utno.la.aft.org/.../why-louisiana-ranked-so-low-education

[ChrisMaster69]

This is that’s the US, you pretty much have 2 parties and people don’t change.

We have a lot of them here and people will one year vote Labour, the next conservative, the next SDLP, Indie etc.

[razelove]

Yeah, I envy that about the UK, oddly you have a monarchy, but practice democracy more than we do. Our version is more a pissing contest. I love our constitution and bill of rights, but I hate that each party uses it as part of that pissing contest to just go all over it when convenient, and our citizens don't see that both parties are essentially the same, just targeting different demographics.

Oh well, I'm not charismatic enough, and my past is too jacked to run for office to change that. Maybe when I reach retirement age I'll give it a futile effort and start a party to crash and burn like the green party and tea party did lol

[yofuknutz]

Oh when your age is revealed just wait for the boomer comments. Yeah lots of ageism here with a complicit Administration.

[razelove]

Heh, I like the second one. Kids don't read the ToS... Ageism exists out of fear. We know we either get old or die. You represent the best of possible outcomes, consistently getting prunier lol

Seriously though, getting old is an achievement. So many people do stupid shit and die young. Most of my friends didn't make it to 30. Could be lifestyle choices on my part though...

[Not_Average]

I think we shouldn’t be fearful but rather talk about big issues with a matter of decency and respect. Only then will people realize that republicans and democrats actually have a lot more in common and we’re not all crazy like the media outlets would have us believe.

[razelove]

I wish more people had that point of view, far left and far right are both being manipulated. Both parties are issuing proposals and counter proposals on the federal level that just remove more of our freedoms bit by bit. We're too damned worried about white vs black, red vs blue, and who "wins" that we don't notice how bit by bit we are going to have no class mobility if this keeps up for another generation or two.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

I've never been afraid I'm proud of being conservative.
our values are about decency, morals and equality not equity like the left. we are the family type, hard working individuals that built this nation from the ground up. no free shit, you want that car or phone? you better fucking work that shit no freebies!

[razelove]

I think that's more the battle of capitalism vs. socialism, which is a wild turn that has been taken within the last decade.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

pure socialism only means more tax, more spending higher debt.
capitalism with a little bit of socialism has always worked. lower taxes, money spent on things that matter, may the best man win. we have always had government assistance even with capitalism.

only the rich get richer under socialism
the little guy has a chance to be at the top under capitalism

[razelove]

That would be why China turned very quickly from communism to capitalism after their revolution. Pay enough to get people involved and energetic, then forget that project. Hell, it was the entire point of their communism and socialism, uplift the poor, control their production, make the country as a whole more powerful, abandon the project for capitalism. The rich certainly got richer.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

Lol I guess that's why they still call themselves "china communitst party/CCP" I mean it's not like they're still communist or anything it's not even in the name!
also yes they knew societal collapse was inevitable under communism. they are capitalist but mostly communist. kinda kike how we were mostly capitalist but a little tiny bit of socialism, worked well that way tbh.

[hellacray]

Well I'm not really afraid. I just don't really care or follow it that closely. I just base my opinion based on what I've seen.

But I generally don't talk politics to strangers on social media. Cause I think some people are crazy and has such extreme views that I'd rather not get involved.

[razelove]

So more that you don't have any strong biases there, and don't want to get pulled into any "side"?

[hellacray]

Well I don't believe in parties in general. I still don't completely know what people mean by the left and the right.

And I think that's one of the biggest things that's wrong with politics in general. They take sides instead of just looking at determining for yourself what's right.

[DizzyDesii]

Im not afraid but when you're on a different page, people aren't willing to hear you out without throwing insults and jabs. I’m over it

[Sillyboi98]

Facts!!! That is dumb true

[razelove]

Well, to be fair that's over a lot more than politics that happens on, especially online. Standing for anything will net you people who will judge and throw insults and jabs. Your sexual preferences, religion, so on and so forth. It does get more personal fast with politics though.

[najekim]

The camps have been there quite a long time. It's just the advent and popularity of social media that has brought them into the light from obscurity. Now with the camps in the light, everyone can see how out-of-touch, self-centered, or pathetic the people are in them. Unfortunately it's those members of the camps that cause the freedom of expression to take a back seat so their precious feelings won't be offended. Well, IMHO, fuck them!

[razelove]

I'm of the same opinion, and that the "canceling" will massively backfire. There's no way to stop the hyperinflation at this point short of closing off foreign relations, which would just make it worse. I do find it funny that on both the right and left, there are actors pushing agendas for totalitarianism, with supporters blindly supporting them because they would hurt their opponent, forget about how much it hurts you.

Like setting my house on fire so the embers get your roof, sigh.

[FreyaRed]

I'm not afraid, I don't have any motivation to discuss my political views with people who are obviously not capable to write two sentences without insults or are obsessed with racialism in one way or another.

[razelove]

Racism? Tribalism? I'm sorry, I see the word racialism, and I'm very confused. I think I get the concept... maybe. Is there turmoil in Poland's politics? I've heard it's quite beautiful (and cold) there :)

[jackderby_01]

I never discuss politics. It is not that i'm afraid our ideologies will match or not. It's just that I feel most of the politics that goes on is corrupt and I'd rather not break a friendship over that. Nothing is black or white, everything is grey

[razelove]

I agree with that, Biden visited near me today, it gives me hope that I can once again be part of a pit of money and help it disappear lol

[jackderby_01]

Lmao

[Soteris]

Since forever? Conservatives vs Democrats, Capitalists vs communists, Democracy vs Fascism, Nationalism vs Nationalism, Christianity vs Islam etc.. This has always been how people "discuss politics" if not more violent and refusal to communicate.

[Maissilapsi]

You don't want to to stretch it over human life time, in fact objectivity starts to suffer after half. As those weren't us. There's obviously something else going on right now that's different than it was in recent past.

There's historical connections and similarities in this day and the past, but not from any one era to say it's historical cycle either. If it is, then there's going to be really tough times a head because so many cycle low points is hitting us at the same time. Not only we switched from industrial manufacturing to information technology but the system of production changing too, revolution that changes governing method, world wars... all kickin in on one big swoooosh...

And people have always gotten along vast majority of time, it's only once interests of leaders clashed when they spent resources for an army upkeep when ordinary people went to kill each others before Classical and Late Modernity and birth of nationalism. There's been wars like "Hundred Years 'War" (from 1337 to 1453) only because people were busy minding other businesses than killing each other

[razelove]

So the 13th Century on? The implication there is that communication and forming larger communities and democracies made us more unable to connect than being serfs, slaves, or nobles with only nobles or merchants having any communication between communities.

[Soteris]

@Maissilapsi Fundamentally I fail to see how switching a person born today with one born 2000 years ago would produce a different result. Humans are still driven by the same motivations and although we are currently in a world that is changing much quicker than historically its not like life is much different between transitions either. We have always been incredibly good to find reasons to bash eachothers heads in over political differences.

[Maissilapsi]

Because it didn't really happen before, common folk, or peasants, didn't have own interest to view peasant from other area as a threat in anyway. Unless they came with other, armed and led by some nobility with some interest in the area. Concepts like racism is relatively new phenomenon although during feudal times darker skin was associated to working in sunshine at fields and that way seen as lower class, almost globally.

Only after Europeans saw other folk as good income source they started to invent, literally invent, these concepts such as racism to justify things like slave trade and colonialism.

Again, religion was an institute of power in feudal times. Nobility and Kings could force their will on people because God wanted it so. Religious wars has always been result of couple individuals having their personal interests on crash course. Only phenomenon stemming from otherness before nationalism and colonialism era "philosophies" justifying looting and plundering of distant lands is European antisemitism. It has long traditions among Christians, and the same tropes been recycled at least a millennium now. It too stems from individual political ambitions rather than some religious feud. Jewish hasn't been able to own land or property in Europe... since like... Romans ruled the continent to the various degrees of modernity, making them targets of unpopular leaders to shift the blame for. New testament actually being used as one of the first antisemitic literatures, or some variation of it. Martin Luther, a giant antisemite etc...

[Maissilapsi]

Today things are different in many ways because we're all nobility in certain sense as we compete for resources to buy some dream sold to us by massmedia etc...

[razelove]

@Maissilapsi True, even the poorest person in just about any nation today is faring better than a peasant in a rich country, or hunter-gatherer before agrarian farming. Life expectancy doesn't end at 30 anymore...

I guess we all buy into different dreams. Mine is simply to own land, rent some of it, and be left alone. As that is in jeopardy, I have to look at the wider world, and gathering people to sustain that reality. Politics is the tool that has put me in a precarious situation, politics is therefore a tool I need to learn to use.

[Soteris]

@Maissilapsi Point to a period in human history and its childishly easy to provide an example of humans arbitrarily singling out individuals as a different group than them and committing atrocities against them.

Middle ages? Witches, heretics, marauding raiders (vikings) etc..
Roman era? I mean they had a stratified civilization in the first place. If you were not a native "roman" you were already a 2nd class citizen with lesser rights and god help you if you where one of the countless people enslaved by them. Rome also had a very colorful history such as how frequently emperors and senators got murdered or how people who supported different sports teams tended to tear each other apart quite literally.

If you go back in time to any time period I highly suggest you DONT talk too loudly about any of your beliefs be they political or not. Even just doing some magic tricks might get you get torn to pieces by an angry mob because they think their misfortune is caused by your "Magic" and much the same if you display an interest in medicine to treat illness.

There is very few things you can talk about safely.

[Maissilapsi]

We've romanticised the past to unrecognisable to tell some stories in past context. Golden Horde killed plebs pretty indiscriminately, but some witch hunts were straight up politics as women started gaining political influence and mandated by Inquisition. Again, vast masses wanted to survive. There might have been some high bandits but if they took life, a scene from Simpsons would've ensued with whole lot of pitchforks and torches. People were more in touch with land that directly fed them, they knew how to respect life and mutual aid we often credit Kropotkin for was everyday life. I help you today, you help me tomorrow. Happiness wasn't something individuals have which Nietzsche and capitalism "corrupted" it to become but something common and shared. Vikings weren't generally violent, it's propaganda, mainly by Swedish nationalists, but rather farmers, traders and occasionally looters when some clan lost power struggle to other clan which then exiled the losers which then raided places or died trying, out of necessity, not for being way of life. One mercenary group is known from Jómsvíkinga Saga and couple others manuscripts known as the Jómsvikings but who fought for Christians etc with biggest purse, gradually becoming first Knights Order. This is evident from archeology and sagas written by contemporary scribes. Actually, most we know about the Viking life is from one Icelandic dude called Snorri Sturluson. Snorri doesn't have much other to say than list some royal family ties and how Loki turned himself to a female horse so Ice Giant would impregnate him and then gave birth to Fenrir (kills Odin in Ragnarök) Jörmungandr (seaserpent that stretches around earth and eats it's own ass) and Hél (Empress of afterlife place, not to mix with Valhalla though) Loki was one of main deities of the culture, like was Odin (Wotan) who was straight up rapist, some speculate Loki was Ódin's other personality...

[Maissilapsi]

Common perception of past folks is often heavily based on romanticised nationalist rhetoric, how "we were brave warriors" or "how others barbaric", like much other common opinions of past. Sometimes it's colored by ultranationalism other times we want to lift our own perceived civility on pedestal

[Maissilapsi]

And what do we know from the past, the tragedies. We have no records, at least interesting ones, how people weren't on each others throats

[Maissilapsi]

Most brutality happened in past hundred years, well 105. WW 2, quite common scenenery on both side at almost all fronts: Disoriented men in shock, some lost their minds completely during 12h, even days long artillery shelling on their position, ripping their clothes to dust and who start getting up from their fox holes while shells whistling just wanting out, not knowing what was happening and so on. Some covered on bloody human tissue, some without an arm or some other part of body, when the officers & MP's, or Chekas in Red Army, opens fire the men, on their side...

That's less than 100 years ago. Some are still alive who've witnessed scenes like that themselves...

There has been human alienation from humanity been going on since industrial revolution and last world wars hopefully will go down to history as last global totalitarian wars. I don't think we even have means to survive our inhumanity without wars anymore, let alone total war scenario

[jgokgotit]

Politics are a waste of time. At the end of the day, NO politician can be trusted. They gain power through lies and do not easily let that power go. Once in power, they serve themselves, not the country.

[razelove]

It's what makes me most sad about people buying into bi-partisan politics. If there were four or five parties there would still be corruption, but they'd have to show results, or fade into obscurity. We stick with this two party deal and think by and large "yeah, they're sticking up for me, totally not working together to take turns with who lubes and who pushes."

[Dontaaa]

It's less about fear, but more of just seeing the value in it.

Everytime I discuss politics with someone in the past it's just basically the other guy mocking and shit talking me, there's no meaningful value in that.

[Dontaaa]

not seeing the value*

[razelove]

I hear that. You do have to pick your battles on many things in life. At least you're learning that younger than I did lol

[NathanDavis]

There's no actual poltical discussion online, or there's very little of it.

What you see the most is stupid propaganda and imposing attitudes.

That's the short answer.

[razelove]

I'll admit I'm pretty intractable on 2A, besides that there is an ocean of ignorance, it's why I stick center rather than right or left. Either side could benefit or hurt me depending on circumstances. Both sides have power hungry A-holes, both sides have people acting in what they believe is best for their constituents. Having an open mind and seeing what actually works is pretty important.

That's my view at least.

[NikolaiIvanov]

I'm not afraid to be what I am. If I choose to be a neo-fascist it doesn't mean I agree with Hitler or Mussolini it means I want to take the negative image of fascism and turn it into a clean ideology which will work.

[NikolaiIvanov]

Antifa is anti fascist I'm on the other extreme end.

[NikolaiIvanov]

If NATO comes at your door pointing guns then you point a cannon at them.

[NikolaiIvanov]

I'm joking lol.

[razelove]

I think someone complained about my original question to you and it got removed, curious.

Cannons require a lot to maintain, fire, and have accuracy. Claymores are far more efficient, cheap, no maintenance, and require no accuracy, simply the right general direction.

[Coulis]

It's not afraid but it's just such a waste of time and energy.

[razelove]

The entrenchment in views, or is there simply nothing to gain?

[Oppressed_Leecher]

every second of your life revolves around politics wether you like it or not.

[Coulis]

@Opressed_Leecher nit my life. Yes we are subject to the its effects - Case and point COVID - but revolves round? Errr not my life.

[Coulis]

Not really much to gain.

[Coulis]

@razelove not really much to gain due to entrenchment in views.

[anon1903]

Agreed with @Coulis

[razelove]

@coulis That part is depressing to me. There are few things I dig my heels into the ground on, pretty much all revolving around my family. Call me naive (I know I am in many ways) but it seems like there was flexibility and debate up until W vs. Gore. Then people started to really crystallize in their views, especially the "As long as it fucks you over, I'll vote for it!"

[Coulis]

Yeah Americans get really into politics. I saw some vignette and it was like these old grannies talking about how they can't wait till the election is over so they can talk to their friends again. Just seems really extreme.

[razelove]

That's sad, enough young and old people are already lonely from isolation due to Covid, to have further isolation due to ideological differences is pathetic. There's people I don't see eye to eye on concerning politics, but I'll still encourage our kids to play. It'd be sick to do otherwise, not like anyone's indoctrinating anyone else here.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

we are literally where we are at based on politics.
if we never had a say (vote free speech) on how and who operates our government we would be mostly Russian or Chinese. they would of conquered us decades ago. we were lucky to be we're we were at before this year.

[Coulis]

@anon1903 Cool, thanks!

[Oppressed_Leecher]

about the whole anti patriotism/patriarchal/nationalism garbage you libs cry about.

do you realize you wouldn't be here if we weren't patriarchal nationalist patriots 70 years ago during world war 2 or nam? your grandparents would of been put in camps executed, you wouldn't exist! it's all based on politics and beliefs that's why other countries hate us so much. everything you do or own revolves around politics the smartphone and Starbucks you have is affordable because of capitalism. the welfare check the low income family receives every month is because of socialist polices capitalist pay for. you literally breathes politics.

[Oppressed_Leecher]

the Russians, Germans or Chinese would of conquered us in the 40s if it wasn't for the conservative patriots here and our strong manly allies overseas teaming up and fighting the evil socialist/communist.

[FunnyLady]

I’m not afraid to talk about politics. Not at all. If people don’t like my political views, to hell with them. However, I typically don’t discuss politics because I enjoy talking to people about more pleasant topics.

[exitseven]

I teach in higher education and I am a Trump supporter. Most of the time I feel like there is a target on my back. I had a Trump sticker on my office door and two days later somebody ripped it off.

[razelove]

Well, you can't carry a gun or knife on school grounds... but no one said anything about a vest or baton lol It's a pointer for the blackboard!

[exitseven]

The professor in the office next to mine cried for 3 days after Trump got elected.

[razelove]

I hate histrionics. Probably a guy too, sigh

[exitseven]

She was a woman. I moved to a different office and I wanted to make some new friends. I thought we got along well until she saw that I was a Trump fan. Then she hardly talked to me.

[Leavesbound]

I love discussing politics but I am choosy with whom. I don't discus politics at work ever. I also tend to avoid the topic at family gatherings.

[razelove]

I completely get the work one. Being unemployed for a difference in opinion is not a pleasant idea. The one upside of government jobs is you can tell other people to STFU when they bring up politics as you all sign paperwork saying you are open to termination if you do discuss them at work.

I do like to simply work, get my job done, and clock out. If there's chit-chat, that's for after work drinks or not at all.

[RCLJT]

I love talking politics, the other side has no facts, no clues, no answers, when you give them facts they stomp their feet, shake their fists in the air and scream at the sky, just like the tantrum throwing toddlers they are.

[razelove]

I think that goes both ways though. Objectivity is something that is becoming increasingly difficult to find. The center is eroding more and more rapidly with the bipolar politics, and presentation of "facts" on both sides, facts which conveniently cannot be independently verified until a year later with objective data, and as presented by them paint opposite pictures of the country we live in.

If you do have a truly objective news source, please, share it. I hunger for knowledge, and I'm not getting it from MSNBC, CNN, or Fox.

[burlen]

Why should you? I’m not afraid discussing politics with anyone.

[razelove]

I'd be concerned with a FtM "straight" person. Lesbians have the most domestic violence compared to any other demographic, trans the most mental instability, combining the two is like giving a shark rabies. Oh, steroids too. So I wouldn't say I'm free with my views with everyone and anyone, just most people lol

[karaspara]

More often than not instead of a interesting informative debate it just turns into a one sided slanging match so I generally just can’t be bothered

[razelove]

Well, if you want to debate I'm open to that. The only thing I throw temper tantrums over are 2A, and how both right and left that go extreme can't see the extent to which they're being manipulated.

[karaspara]

Extreme in either direction is too much extreme is extreme and you can’t talk to these people on either side because they are already convinced they’re right and get angry and abusive the moment you dare to disagree I must apologize I have no idea what 2A is 🤷‍♀️

[razelove]

Completely irrelevant in the UK lol, 2nd amendment in the US, right to bear arms. I'm actually hoping for another Brady Bill assault weapons type deal to come down the line. Arms sales skyrocketed last time that happened and I made a killing on the fringe. If I become a FFL dealer this time around, retirement time.

[friendzoned4life]

I Am not afraid of discussing I am only afraid that there are too much dumbasses that don't want to fight cause they think they Just have to to wait to get our freedom back

[razelove]

You raise a valid point. But fight against what and with who? Each side has extremist groups if you want to actually physically fight. I'm more in favor of voting, though there is no satisfying third party, much less 4th or 5th. Also on what platform would you organize, logistics aside, start with simple recruitment, that wouldn't turn into Ruby Ridge or Waco before you get past 10 people.

I find the right just as guilty as the left there. Very few states are challenging these executive orders, or have legislators actively fighting these power grabs. They're complicit, yet you can't tell someone on the far right that. Like Florida's law against peaceable assembly. It sounds nice against the threat of violent mobs... but what happens if you are protesting for the wetlands, a historic society, or the right and suddenly find every member of your group slapped with felonies?

They are the right and the left, bot more the right and left hand coming together to crush us, with very few cogs in that machine making any moves to actually keep our freedoms. I don't blame them either. We're too dumb and simple to get together and do anything about it, why should they?

[friendzoned4life]

@razelove maybe not assume everyone is American?

[razelove]

I don't, your profile says united states... Felons have the same voting rights as immigrants if that's what you're saying, none. At least in theory that's how it works, I know a felon who votes, so who knows.

[friendzoned4life]

Dafuq I am dutch 😅

[razelove]

Might want to check your profile then lol

[Pogi-Paddy-2]

I am not afraid to discuss politics, I just prefer not to speak about politics because I don't need the extra stress because I have enough of my own self-created stress on my own.

[anon1903]

Exactly

[razelove]

Understandable

[Kas19]

Some people get too heated. Some people are too dumb. Some just talk in circles.

[razelove]

Nooo!!! I'm rubber and you're glue! Ha, I win! :)

[jshm2]

You're confused.

Most people know nothing of politics. Just their issues and opinions of it.

[razelove]

I'm not confused, just slowly learning about how the process is conducted, campaign law, how to set up for donations and what not. Also that the dynamic needed to run today is polarizing issues and running a smear on your opponent. Rather than stating what I am, I only need to state how I'm not him.

[Isawaturtle]

Hearing the brainwashed right wingers is a worry.
They wave their Aussies flags even though the Liberals sell this country off and undermine workers pay and conditions.

Our kids will be working for wealthy foreigners for near nothing.

[razelove]

Aussies flags? What are those? Your region when I scroll over it says US.

[Isawaturtle]

This program can get my age right but not my region since it spammed my internet you’d think it would get it right.

I’m from Australia
Might be a good clue to dump this waste of time platform

[razelove]

You do what you feel you have to do man.

[sheikalana]

Not being knowledgeable enough to discuss about certain topics.

[razelove]

That gets me too. I have a voracious appetite for knowledge. With politics though, Fox says cities are burning, CNN says everything is peaceful, after searching for hours you find things are mostly peaceful (number of people compared to violent altercations) with violent exchanges, mostly from Antifa, or previous gang disputes taking advantage of the chaos.

It doesn't benefit either side or their ratings to talk about reality though... It upsets me that with so much data on the web, actual knowledge rather than opinions are so difficult to find. Also that policies are being shaped on both sides from a subjective reality. Hell, I don't even know if the "objective" reality is true anymore unless I'm willing to go investigate with my own two eyes.

[sheikalana]

Nowadays when searching for information we need to read and re-read, research and compare stories/articles because there's too much misleading and fake news going on.

[razelove]

Yeah, the right would have more credibility to me if they combated fake news with, well, news, rather than more fake news that simply appeals to their demographic. They do have some solid gems, but when they publish photoshopped photos and stuff as news while yelling at CNN for doing the same, yeah, good stuff... lol

[MasterOfReality]

The only ones shutting down conversation and silencing people is on one side.. And we all know which side that is.

[razelove]

Yeah, though that does get old when there are devices other than smartphones. What was it... Parlor or something that was the next outlet many conservatives moved to? They shut down on there simply because the apple store stopped carrying it. There are PCs and Androids. The boycott power of millions of people is a powerful force beyond a stock market price.

I get that, and think the pendulum will swing the other way with FB and Twitter, but why would it take waiting on Trump to set up a server and invite people to chat on it? IRC still exists, Google+, so so many digital platforms.

[MasterOfReality]

I agree. Folks shouldn’t be waiting on Trump to do things. We can all do our part though. I quit FB, Twitter, and have been using Duck Duck Go for sometime. I also recommend proton mail for email. It’s free and completely encrypted and never scanned for keywords like gmail. And for any text correspondence between friends and family I use Signal. It’s also encrypted and free and works off cell and wifi like Apple messaging. It also has built in message destruction if you wish. And then there are all the products I now refuse to buy if I know they are actively working against my political interests.

[razelove]

I'll check those apps out. Even if it was the left that twitter and FB were silencing, I can only get that censorship if your platform is used to recruit terrorists or something. They literally allow terrorists on their platforms to recruit, while kicking unpopular opinions.

heinonline.org/.../brklr83&div=23&id=&page=

[MasterOfReality]

I know! isn't that crazy? They silence conservatives they don’t agree with, but allow terrorist to organize on their platforms (Antifa, BLM, ISIS, etc)

[Rangers]

Nothing, I'm not afraid to talk politics at all. They can censor me online but they can't stop me from talking in person

[razelove]

Good on you man, what kind of venues do you find for that? I've found doing so has made me closer with some neighbors, estranged from some, and there's only one that I can actually verbally spar with who doesn't just shut down or buddy up assuming I share all their views.

[DaveToo]

Nothing. I am well known on Facebook and in Central NY for my political opinions.

[razelove]

Col beans, do you lean one way or the other? I shift with whichever way the wind blows best.

[DaveToo]

I am the District 3 representative in Central NY, for the Democratic Party. Grew up in a Republican household, but when Nixon got elected I went Independent. When Reagan got elected I went Democrat.

[razelove]

That's awesome. What was your impetus for getting involved in politics? I want to look into that myself, but don't really know where to begin.

[DaveToo]

Look up the local election board and contact them. Why did I get involved? After dodging land mines, mortar rounds, and small arms fire in Vietnam, after crawling through the Vietnamese jungle with Agent Orange, I knew the politicians had lied to me. I've worked ever since returning stateside with my local government, state government, and at the federal level to keep us out of war zones. Although I've obviously failed miserably, I CAN say our government can no longer draft young men and women into conscript.

[razelove]

Well, young men still have to register for the draft. With recruitment numbers vs. the need in the military right now, that's potentially a rough one. Retention rate there is only looking better when compared with most major city police departments after a federal consent decree.

I'm also sure my views would be much different if I had gotten drafted rather than enlisted. Especially into a war with that high of casualties and KIA. There's also only so much you can do to stop a war, or slow it. Most people really want to have a war take place, as long as they and theirs don't have to go into it. Movies and video games portray death so quick and clean, with protagonists who are unstoppable juggernauts. Not ambush after ambush, difference being which side has the initiative with lots of screaming and struggling until shock takes over.

I suppose that would be a difference in opinion we have. I think modern day less people would want war if we had compulsory service for two years. That is the minimum length of time for the GI bill and would also pay for everyone's school that puts into it.

[DaveToo]

If you have never been in a war zone, with people trying to kill you, small arms fire constantly around you, mortar shells exploding near you, land mines you have to avoid, all while trying to rescue a fellow Marine and return him to safety, then your opinion on war and its horrors just can't account for much in the eyes of those that have had to deal with it, day after day after day, even when we return home.

[razelove]

I was in the Corps, but a POG. My experience with people trying to kill me and small arms fire came later in Mexico and Central America. Mortars are pretty rare these days. RPGs, IEDs, and simple barricades to ambush are more common.

A piece of cinder block coming through a windshield is extremely effective in the wrong hands. Without a driver, there is no vehicle, and no need for anti-material rounds or copper penetrators. Have that happen once and abandon a vehicle to fire with an M-700, SKS or any other marksman rifle in unknown territory, oh boy, the pucker factor rises. Mercenaries don't get back-up.

Most people don't use landmines for one simple reason. You may get the enemy with them, but if there is a known mine-field, and you ignore politics, give it a few months, their forces will die stepping on spots they forgot they buried mines in. It's why you don't booby trap your house. In any existential threat scenario, you are the person most likely to be hit by fragmentation.

I've done more security work than I have military, so ignoring politics and just getting objectives achieved was a luxury I had afforded to me. If you're in the Corps, you have to do something about those bodies hanging from the overpass. If you're an independent contractor, fuck em.

[DaveToo]

I was a dual MoS, Coast Guard and Marine Corp, Search and Rescue specialist. In Vietnam, they were still using all of those. Thank you for your service.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

I don't really mind talking about it if i have to. Just bringing up politics is just something an ethical.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

*unethical.

I meant when everyone is like having a good mood but for whatever shallow reason you just feel the need to bring up something controversial

[razelove]

Well, if you want to break it down the only things you really have to do are breath, eat, and drink. Life would be pretty boring within those parameters though. Also very short for our species...

Politics is starting to intrigue me because it is such an illusory construct, but holds so much power. At the same time that I want to learn more about it and different views, I am finding that many people are reluctant to talk about it.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Sure but you have to be so relevant to bring that up

[themythos]

Its so pointless trying to debate others. People just scream at eacother and leave thinking they made a valid argument.

[razelove]

Sometimes yes, sometime no. Many people go with the momentum. Our two party system creates an illusion that if you disagree with one point of one party, you must support the opposite, same with agreeing with one of their points.

It's bullshit, and so strange to me that the two party system continues to draw power, influence, and people that polarize more strongly on both sides. Strange how fast Gore's Green party got shot down, or the Tea party, which logically are the extreme side of right and left.

[ryancg]

I don't discuss it because it's personal. It's as simple as that, my thoughts on politics are my own and nobody else's business. Honestly, I feel like it'd save people a lot of anguish if they felt the same way.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Talking to a moron who is incapable to understand or view the world through multiple lens.

[razelove]

I've lived multiple lives, and seen the world from different points of view. Granted most of them were desperate and involved violence. It did make me realize how utterly ignorant I am about so many things, which helped a lot when I went to college (so many people get that paper and are geniuses!).

To be able to get through that barrier you have to realize your own limitations and confirmation biases. You won't change any minds, but you might open some up, yeah?

[Glasgow55]

I'm reluctant to talk about politics, because I don't think I know enough about it.

[Wise4myage]

Getting into stupid arguments. Its just not worth it.

[anon1903]

It's pointless discussion.

[razelove]

In what way? I can say someone I disagree with on a regular, @msc545 hasn't changed my mind on much, but has pointed out when what I thought were objective facts... were objectively wrong lol. I'd say that makes a difference. The worst we can do is view "the other side" as sub-human, because that makes it easier to kill in any situation that you do.

[anon1903]

Unnecessary drama, really.

[Adam1978]

I am not afraid at all.

[razelove]

Do you just choose not to, or what is your outlet? I ask because soon I do want to start discussing and trying to get involved with politics on a broader scale. Beyond my neighborhood to region, and online.

[Adam1978]

That's when your career will end if your not afraid to discuss any topic, as a regular citizen I have no media coverage or fame to be hold over my head, that they can try to tarnish. You really need to think through your points before voicing them. I wouldn't get anywhere in politics, they wouldn't let me.

[razelove]

My career is in chemistry, which has already been wrecked under this administration. More likely to prevent me from forward progress in politics would be my very checkered past, which the more I've thought on it, the more it could be an asset. Better the devil you know. How many major political parties do you have in Sweden?

I think in the US a lot of the problem we have is buying into the two party narrative. It makes an "us vs them" narrative far too easy, when people need to work together or not at all on goals in a modern society. You can't have things both ways.

[Adam1978]

We have seven major right now but anyone can start their own party, you however need a minimum of 4% of the votes to get in. So it's not an easy path to start up a party. You can't run it alone, you need representation in all regions or you will just be regional party, or you can skip sweden and focus on getting into the eu parlament. Because it has its own election and selection process.

[JamieLoves]

I’m Nit afraid and do everyday!
I don’t like lots of idiots politics.
I don’t care if they like me or mine.
Im going to shove my ideas down their throats

[razelove]

... I'd hate to say it, but that might be a lot of the reason people don't want to talk about them. On that end not fear, but simply not arguing with an immovable object. Whether you're right or left, if you can't be open to the idea that you could be wrong, you can't debate. How else do you analyze your opponents positions if you don't even consider them?

[Dargil]

I'm never afraid to discuss politics.

[razelove]

Me either when I have a flak jacket and shoulder rig on lol

[KatherineJ]

Because people aren’t civil.

[razelove]

That does cut both ways though. You and I are both peoples.

[KatherineJ]

You will note that I pointed no fingers at one side or the other.

[razelove]

You're a person too, if people aren't civil, you aren't civil either. Same goes for me, and every other human in civilization. It's not about either side silly. If you paint humanity with a broad brush, and you're a human too...

[KatherineJ]

And I’m out. See? Your reply is exactly why I do not engage in political discussions.

[razelove]

That's called thin skin, we haven't discussed a single thing except how sensitive you are. Also that you blame as much on other people's "civility".

[KatherineJ]

It isn’t a matter of being “sensitive”. It’s a matter of being respectful to one another, and your initial reply shows that you are not capable of it. Have a wonderful day.