What makes you afraid to discuss politics?

[razelove]

I thought about this obsession with Twitter and FB as freedom of speech goes... but we operated just fine without them, and using our words and letters to speak and argue before.

What changed, when did we form our camps and extremist groups that won't consider the other part of the same species?

Is the threat a physical one, existential, or unwillingness to communicate?

[nightdrot]

Actually, I am not afraid to discuss politics. If for no other reason than that I work in politics for a living so it is kind of hard to escape it. That said, like any topic, appropriateness of circumstances and good manners are the guiding lights.

In circumstances where such discussion is not really appropriate - say a child's birthday party (with three I have done to, and been to, a few over the years), a wedding, or other such situations - I refrain from talking about it. Obviously at work, or perhaps at a dinner party IF THE HOST RAISES IT IN DISCUSSION (emphasis added.), or in a similar situation then I will raise political talk.

Also, I try to be sensitive to people's individual viewpoints and if I have - say for example - a Democrat friend over amongst my Republican friends, then I will avoid it again. This to avoid a situation where a guest may feel ganged up on or some such. That, of course, depends upon knowing who you have in your home or other social setting.

One on one, with friends - Democrats or Republicans - I am pretty open. Albeit always taking care to keep the tone civil and modulated and again, with a keen awareness of circumstance.

However, the above rules apply not just to politics, but to ANY social situation. It is called civilized living and good manners and it appears to have been something that is being lost in American culture. That culture, with its populist tilt and grotesque self-absorption, cannot imagine that when the individual has something to say that he or she should not say it and expect all others to bend the knee.

Thus, the rathole that is current American political discourse. Oh, and American media and so much else. With a hardy dollop of slander and epithets thrown into the mix. See also "racist" and "socialist" as two hardy perrennials.

Yes, politics is important and emotions can run high. However, once upon a time, people were expected to control their emotions and - when they broke the rules - to graciously apologize. It being well to remember, as the columnist George F. Will wrote decades ago, "Politics is important and serves a vital jurisdiction, but it is not central to things that make for a good life. Cheerful children, feisty friends and a strong bullpen."

A little perspective and a proper sense of decorum and respect goes a long way. When you observe those rules, 99% of the time there is no reason to be afraid to discuss politics. Therefore I never am.

[razelove]

Lovely. I'm going to copy that down if you don't mind. It aligns well with ideas I have problems articulating. What do you think led to that decline in courtesy, and straight rejecting it from some?

Call me strange, but I think a lot of it is drifting far away from religion, no matter what you believe. That's a solid framework on how to treat not just others, but yourself with respect. I can still debate with atheists who believe strongly in not believing, same with Christians, Muslims or Jews. It's those who don't have well defined beliefs, or morals that I find retreat into themselves and make things personal more swiftly.

Maybe that's just the people I know though. What's your opinion on why that would break down from the ideal you mentioned?

[nightdrot]

Thanks for your kind comment. As to your point about religion is not strange, but it is oddly secondary. In fact, the cause of the decline in courtesy and manners is, in many respects, the same force that is causing a decline in religion.

The driving force in the culture is an ascendant populism and related individualism. That populism is defined by a distrust in established institutions, a distrust of elites, the primacy of the individual as the judge of his/her own virtues, this conducing to a sort of cultural egoism. Suddenly the emphasis is on "authenticity." "Do your own thing," and suchlike.

You will note the recent survey data indicated a decline in participation in religious services and religion as an institution, but NOT a decline in the belief of God. In effect, the cultural attitude is that we make God in whatever image suits us, whereas belief in established religion obliges the individual to conform into a historically ratified sense of God.

CONT.

[nightdrot]

Manners are similarly affected. They become not an obligation to one's fellows as an individual worth of respect and dignity, but rather an encumbrance on one's self-expression. So the individual "speaks his mind" regardless of who is offended by it and the devil take the hindmost.

This then conducing the rough and tumble culture we see. Indeed, we have been here before. See also the cultural tumult of the 60s and 70' and even the 1920s. The difference this time being that the technology has a splintering effect - unlike the technology of the previous generation which, it was feared, tended to be a homogenizing force and thus there was, especially in the 60s, a fear of too much conformity.

There is actually more to it, but that explains it in outline given the space limitations. This will, as the 60s and 70s became the more tranquil 80s and 90s, calm after a while. People grow tired of tumult.

However, the real long term problem that the stock of common ethics is depleted with time, particularly as the education system fails to reinforce it. People after a time take for granted their cultural norms and they begin to waste away. There is no way to say that the Western world is there yet - "we know not the day, nor the hour" and duty requires that we carry on. However, it is well to remember.

[nightdrot]

P. S. One last quick note. A lot of the decline in modern manners has its origins in the ideas of the Enlightenment. Those ideas suggested that man was basically a social and rational being who was corrupted by the pre-rational institutions and identities of society.

Strip these away and make law and custom in conformance with man's natural rights, and man will live in spontaneous peace and harmony with his fellows. However, as Burke pointed out, man stripped of his cultural and historical heritage is "reduced to his naked shivering nature."

Rousseau called man "the noble savage." To which Burke replied that the savagery was obvious, but the nobility was more problematic.

Suffice to say, how we got to where we are traces back to the very origins of modern Western civilization,. The Enlightenment brought many benefits, not least the belief in natural rights and the like. However, as with all things made by man, it was not an unmixed blessing.

[Floppy2112]

It seems like a chicken or egg situation. Did manners decline because or political strife or vice versa? I don’t know. I what has been displayed is that from bad manners to violence negatively is an effective political weapon. Why? Because good people did nothing when it started. I can digress, but I really do boil it down to a lack of struggle. We are more materialistically advantaged than at anytime in history. We have more actual peace than at any other time in history. And people are angrier and unhappier than at anytime in history.
What is clear is that human flourishing has nothing to do with happiness. So that theory is out the window.
I think lack of religion has something to do with it. But I would venture to say religious zealotry is at an all time high as well. But the objects of worship are identity not God.
And people are not grateful for the bed they sleep in, the air conditioning they enjoy the food they eat, etc. it’s all granted now.
People have the luxury to be mad, nobody taught them what lack and scarcity is. They have no purpose they have no meaning so it must be the other guy’s fault.

I can deal with the rudeness but the violence has to stop. I don’t think it will, nobody takes it seriously. It’s going to get worse.

[nightdrot]

@Floppy2112 Just a couple of quick notes.

Your observation on religious zealotry - at least in the Western world - is not correct. In the Muslim world it experienced something of an upsurge as a reaction to Western cultural influences. However, even that seems to be mellowing, such that Saudi Arabia - the keeper of the Muslim holy places and a country that has typically been highly sensitive to religious influences, has felt relatively free to seek talks with Israel.

In any case, as far as the West, the USA remains the most expressly religious society in the Western world and even there it is in decline - at least insofar as organized religion is concerned.

As far as material comfort, there is some truth in what you say. However, it is worth noting that the Western world was, by far, at its most riven in the aftermath of the Great Depression. See also World War II, and of course crime and civil violence was on the rise in that period. So here again, there is no necessary correlation.

The current situation is mostly, as I alluded, an outgrowth of a combination of new technologies heightening a certain social distancing - there being no irony in that it was expected to the opposite - combined with a rising populist individualism. Once elites and institutions are not, by definition, trustworthy, they lose the capacity to set, however informally, cultural norms.

At any rate, your last point is more wish than fact. It is highly unlikely that a society that increasingly shouts at the top of its' lungs will find the self-discipline and social trust necessary to restraining violence. Indeed, here is one case where there is no doubt. The decibel level went up and only in time did the violence increase as well.

Manners are both a reflection of, and a reinforcement of, the bonds of social connectedness. Where that falls apart, tranquility is not likely to follow.

[razelove]

Unfortunately that sounds about right. Simply talking with people was much easier with landlines, more easy, but more distant when everyone had tom as a friend on MySpace. The outgrowths from there, deviantart, and what not were similar. More connections, more superficial relationships. Oh well, we'll all be speaking Mandarin or Hebrew in the not so distant future if we continue on our passive aggressive route of self-destruction. And really, I have nothing against Jewish or Chinese culture, so it would affect me and mine little as some of them already speak Mandarin and I'm circumcised lol

[Floppy2112]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by zealotry. I am not referring to classical religions. I am referring to the cult of the woke. In every way it resembles religious zealotry to a godless ideology. Forced compliance, purging of apostates. Repetitions of phrases and sloganeering, etc. I, in no way mean there is a an actual religious renewal. People are replacing religion with ideology and protating, literally prostrating themselves before those who they believe to represent that ideology the best. For lack of a better term, I call it the cult of the woke. It can also be called intersectionality, tribalism, or postmodernism.
For the result of purging God from their lives, they have filled the vacuum with incredibly destructive ideologies and are forcing it on the population by any means necessary.
It's what Nietzsche predicted in his 'Death of God' writings.
The loss of God left a God sized hole in their hearts, and they filled it with destructive ideology instead.

And as far as 'human flourishing' is concerned, it is true. It is absolutely true that more people possess materialistic wealth by both number and percentage, than ever before in history. Feel free to peruse the stats at: https://www.HumanProgress.org​

[Sensmind]

I back away from political discussion just because it has become too aggressive - It does genuinely feel that people believe the argument is won by the person who shouts the loudest - As far as I can recall in my 50 plus years on this planet, I don't think I have ever seen anyone change their views in a political discourse - Especially in this day and age, you are drip fed by your sources of choice to a brainwashed state - I genuinely crave a neutral, fact centred news source where the two sides can meet, contribute without histronics - I will not say which way I lean only to say both sides are equally as guilty of degenerating political discourse into the gutter.

[razelove]

So that's happening in Ireland as well, not just the US? The lack of objectivity and rejection of facts disgusts me as well. "Show them what they want" is not news, that's entertainment.

[Sensmind]

Thanks for MHO

[Maissilapsi]

I'm afraid it's largely due manufactured divide take too far, which is driving people off the cliff and into extreme, often identity, positions. It's manufactured there for certain purposes. Mainly opportunistic purposes but also deliberatepolitical tactic to gain more political power. I doubt it was supposed to get us using civil war rhetoric. (need to consult Newt Gingrich on that, he's credited for playing the key role on political polarization by a great number of scholars) In my way Civil War rhetoric is caused by new players who saw an opportunity to have things their way abusing the existing divide and tearing it wider for their own benefit by throwing gas in all small sparks in society instead of fixing things as it'snot guaranteed to succeed. It has gotten to level where a sausage or gun is an identity same way nationality can be. Why else would rational people explode in furious rants on social media whenever legislation that somehow thinly touches these, literally objects, is presented? Only explanation I can come up with is that they feel personally attacked, the object is part of their political identity.

On the other hand there's politicians and other leaders who never went through democratic screening getting away from worst crimes with slap on the wrists while the poor guy gets decade of slave labor over stealing something needed to survive. The injustice creates the internet mobs ready to make anyone they can to face, if not justice, then at least online justice. It could be something you've said or done in past and which you apologise for, but it's never good enough for the online mob. One wrong word comes from your mouth and apology stops meaning something.

Mentality like that requires strong motivations. I can imagine politician who cause the conditions for parents getting on each others throats daily to suicide of close family member, who then walks off to fame and success despite breaking all promises to fix problems which were hot air from the start can easily create such strong motivations to get at least some justice. No matter where it's from...

All this, (plus more most likely) creates very hostile environment to talk about politics. And vast majority of people want to life in peace, minding their own business and not get targeted by some paramilitant identitarians or have their personal lives spread across internet and then trialled, judged and sentenced for eternity in condemnation.

Solution is another topic though...

[razelove]

That's a tough one. Only solution I can think of would be for both sides to break away from the two party narrative and simply vote on the issues they think are important, rather than snowballing them into identity packages. The voters that is, not the politicians. The faith in them really confuses me.

[Maissilapsi]

Trick is how to make politicians in US Congress accountable for the people that voted them in, or the vast masses of working class folk.

Your only solution is pretty spot on, in technical terms it would means upgrading the currently used 2 hall Congress, that's ancient model, to a parliament. Parliaments have several parties that create coalitions and voter chooses a coalition of parties that are ideologically on same page. Meaning that a parliament creates ideological arm wrestling mostly on left-right axis while centrists hovering around somewhere between, usually picking the side that winning...

So what's the trick ideologies does to the politicians then?

They guard the opposing ideology, they alert the press, they alert, you, your mom, your moms mom, you moms baby mama... the entire planet stops spinning the second a politician in parliamentary system gets dirt or political incompetence of members of opposing ideology.

This is missing in US Congress. There are two parties but one ideology: Neoliberalism. I define it as ideology think-tanks pulled out of their ass.. -ets in... in... an industry...(not sure what the language policy is here yet so I try to keep spicy takes to myself) to justify de facto leadership positions of society to those with most money instead of democratic screening... i need to work on the definition more but anyway, 2 parties + 1 ideology = 0 accountability, the parties actually help each others on keeping both in power.

Remember what Biden said after Capitol Hill Putsch? USA needs strong Republican party, if there was any kind of ideological difference he would've said USA doesn't need Republican party...

[razelove]

I take it as a given that the two parties are one and the same for those who are "in" rather than recently elected, or in an area likely to be contested. They simply target different demographics for appeal. Obama promised to do something about torture and the wars W started... and implemented extraordinary rendition along with harsher torture that we leased out to our NATO allies lol

[Maissilapsi]

There's couple distinguishable ideologies currently rushing into Congress, or Status Quo, to fill the power vacuum carved by Neoliberalism that swallowed both parties. There's social democrats (Bernie, AOC etc) from left and few right-wing bourgeois and far right ones. Bourgeoisie can be divided to Liberal and Conservatives but which make the current one ideology 2 parties setup and then far right which is taking over GOP. Although that remains to be seen, Trumpian fascism or Trumpism ran out of steam pretty much already and far right generally stick to winners. Much depends on how masses feel their economic prospects during the next elections and type of candidate GOP runs will we see another try of some proto-fascist to create a movement (Crenshaw worries me a bit, or some surprise popping up from ranks of military) or will GOP become mixed bag of bourgeois Liberals and Conservatives (like it was until 90's) and Democrats become truly a left-wing of Congress tossing the Clinton-Obama axis Neoliberalism in the bin...

[razelove]

I think once Pelosi is gone they will drop the veneer and go full left, and lose the center. Same with once Mitch McConnel is gone, the right will fracture. He's the glue that keeps together center to hard right. Pelosi does the same on the left, but the dems have more cohesion.

[Maissilapsi]

You make great point. Democrats has already largely changed on local, city, county level towards some... say, European socialdemocrats. They're not anti capitalists but have more of a Keynesian economic policies

[Maissilapsi]

GOP however rides on disruption elefants like Marjorie Greene etc which people think will cause most damage on Capitol Hill

[razelove]

The GOP kind of has to do that. For all you can say about the left, they have cohesion and an identity. The right has lacked any cohesion or real goals for about 30 years now. What, George Bush Sr. having clear goals on foreign affairs... and little else, then getting decimated later for overlooking, you know, the country he's governing.

[Maissilapsi]

Right has that top-down command structure they can use at civil wars etc, just about whenever the fascists has won civil war as an example of it being used, also today when Left throws rope the Right pipeline down a message that says "it's a trap, Left want you dead" and they feel threatened right now because GOP scared them insane so the Right falls in line and take orders (narrative) to write online and that's how it'll be as long GOP is some neoliberal-cryptofascist identity dog whistle

[Ditto626]

I was in college surrounded by self-centered, highly opinionated, and highly obnoxious smug liberals. My field is also full of liberals and they have no problem with being fascists as long as they can continue to believe they're right. People get pushed out of their jobs and are dur off from friends and family. The thing that pisses me off the most is that liberals don't even pay attention to who they voted for. I should know, I thought I was a democrat. I voted for Obama in 2012 and I regret my vote. I didn't care for Romney either but I wish I would've stayed home because Obama was not what he portrayed himself to be. Biden and Harris aren't either. But people just follow the crowd because the "News" media, celebrities, and dumb articles in social media tells them what to think and all they have to do is throw buzz words like racism or sexism to make the low information voters to fall in line to avoid being seen as those things. It disgusts me. As soon as Biden was sworn in people went back to not paying attention again because it isn't Trump. I hate this country.

[razelove]

I love this country, everything it was, and everything it can be. I just hate the vulnerable situation we're in right now over fear. We're 20 years out from 9/11, and we didn't hunker down like this from terrorist attack, we fought back against every single person we thought might possibly maybe be involved. We tore through their countries like Montazuma's revenge tearing through a tourist's bowels.

Covid hits and we're little bitches. Trump gets yelled at for doing the most basic of tasks, shutting infected people out. There aren't as many liberals in STEM, that one was strange to me in school, take for granted being able to talk, having to try hard to get into a girl's pants, then have to go take a class in the English or arts building, opposites day lol

[MCheetah]

I'm not. I just know many people nowadays, especially on the left, are too hyperbolic and immature to discuss politics rationally or logically. I am of the belief that 99% of politicians don't care about you and never will. Obama taught me that. The best you can hope for is someone who SEEMS like a good person, on the surface (like Tulsi Gabbard) and hope they don't get too corrupted down the line.

As far as Trump goes, I liked him over time even though I didn't in 2016. I felt him as a common ally against bigger, more powerful forces. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" saying. I feel like Trump was that, but more so, he embodied everything about American values and the Constitution: being a loudmouth and arrogant, but getting sh*t done!

Trump was a rare wildcard in politics. Which is why they wanted to make sure another Trump would never happen again, going so far as to try to impeach him twice AFTER blatantly, 100% stealing the 2020 election. Even WHEN they have someone who checks off most of the diversity checkboxes, like Tulsi Gabbard, they'll still throw them under the bus for not being the corrupt trash they are.

Politicians are among the worst people in society. But the sad reality of humanity is, most of them are too stupid to NOT have politicians or royalty rule over them. People love being slaves, no matter what they'll tell you. And I'll never be afraid to point that out.

[razelove]

I agree, though I didn't vote in that election (didn't know shit about Trump, and no way in hell was I voting for Hillary), he's not someone I'd want to be BFFs with as he said some stupid and caustic stuff on a regular. He still accomplished a lot with both hands tied behind his back though. The irony to me is convincing the black community to hate him after the prison reforms, and lifting more people out of poverty then, hell, anyone I can think of.

I just wish we had more than two parties, and that both weren't so obviously working with each other to establish control over us. Personally I trust corrupt politicians. I know what sways them, their motives, and how they'll represent me based on the highest bidder. It's how we vote in Louisiana, and our politicians represent us viciously, lest they lose their office and get investigated lol

[HiveBee]

The left will become a tyrant. Freedom is evil. Authority, force, and coercion are viewed as necessary and justified.

Anyone who disagrees should be afraid. Their jobs, livelihoods, physical safety, values, cultures and so on will soon be under attack, if not already as we already see with a variety of examples.

There is no point in discussing politics with violent, rage and hate filled leftists.

And I know. I used to be one. You couldnt tell me shit. I was filled to the brim with hate and rage against anyone who disagreed with me.

Anyone who disagreed with me was a bigot. Or some other form of amoral or evil person. I knew that the only way to bring about the best life for all people, was government intervention. To force people to act as I believed they should.

Sounds like some jihad shit. But we saw the mentality that I had for 30 years, back when communism had its heyday. Where anyone with some money was murdered and ideological heretics were sent to prison.

Will the left of today careen and spiral back to the same mistakes they made in the past?

I think they will.

[Maissilapsi]

I believe you've mixed the left with something else entirely. Those aren't leftist positions, those are exact opposite positions than the left has today or has had in the past, at least since Lenin and Bolshevik October revolution in 1917. Lenin himself called Soviets right-communists and wrote an essay or book about how the global left had "infantile disorder" for not supporting his violent revolution.

Actual revolution, when Bolsheviks conquered Petrograd (Formerly Leningrad, now St. Petersburg) wasn't actually violent. Only couple Bolsheviks were injured, they probably slipped while drunk. Russian Revolution is said to have lasted from 1917 to 1923 and defeat of royalist White Army, but it saw numerous unhappy leftist and socialist uprisings which were met with Red Army all the way until Hitler launches Operation Barbarossa and Stalin gets an enemy to unite the country against

[razelove]

I don't think intolerant, power hungry bigots are exclusive to the right or left. You can see plenty of people on the right taking advantage of fear to take their own grabs of power that don't help anything. Though the left does have a lot of momentum for wrecking the economy and security of the country in a lasting way.

The counterpart for their extremism now would be if the tea party came on the scene using all means possible.

[Maissilapsi]

If I've understood correctly from what I've seen, the Tea Party which took over the Republican party was actually Astroturfed in the Congress.

This is literally the Golden Age of political science. The bamboozling the public is subjected to will bamboozle political scientists for decades to come. Like, how did they get people to defend them, even with their own lives and ready to take lives of others, by lying and getting caught repeatedly on those lies, yet getting re-elected with good margins...

Well actually, weapon grade identity politics, online conspiracy theory campaigns, Astroturf, good ol" fashioned propaganda in new clothes aka fake news media etc all ade possible by the postmodernist obfuscation according which everything can be sold to the highest bidder, it'll be good, bo harm can happen when the democratic institutions are someones private property... Except the refeudalisation of society that we're staring mouth open right now

[razelove]

@Maissilapsi You're assuming there will be political scientists or history of this. The scariest part I'm seeing is the rejection of objectivity from both sides. That means rejecting math and science. It is very easy to lose a golden age and fall into a dark age of feudalism as you mentioned. It has happened to many other societies with more power. Look at the spread of Islam, the huge leaps in chemistry, math, and architecture. Then the collapse. Modern day that momentum is building again.

China likewise had a collapse due to the British introducing opium and invading. Now they're entering a golden age, we have had several in the west. From war, arms races, information technology... and now we're so convinced of our invincibility that we don't see how we're hacking away at our own civilization.

[Maissilapsi]

China could have beaten European colonialists on conquering the world, but it fell inside and locked itself for centuries from outside world consideringit having nothing to offer for the Empire, in fact when the British came to buy tea first times the Chinese tried to communicate using Latin, language they used on trading with the Roman Empire, thousand years ago. The collapse had already happened by the British arrived they just "sealed the deal", more or less figuratively.

Although all empires ever has needed some outside catalyst to put an end to them and there's never some sudden crash. Death of an empire like for example Roman, was several hundred years of slowly crumbling as it was such a monumentally large project to deal with tools and knowhow available for them. Suddenly they found themselves in position where infra outside the regional capital cities were in so bad shape the land was largely in undefendable condition and to avoid getting ran over by the Ostrogoths etc they paid astronomical ransoms, and got ran over by them anyway...

Although USA jas had couple defeats lately on words arena, it's still de facto ruler of world with petrodollar backed by military overpower unlike ever seen on earth. Chinese soft power isn't soft enough to have an impact on US dominance globally. There's lessons countries learn when they've, for example sold China some ports. Greeks say, after selling Pireus Harbor to China when got sick with Troika or ECB IMF and EU parliament that "we thought the neoliberal Troika punishing us can't get any worse but at least they held what was agreed on. Chinese stopped following contracts in a week and fired 2/3 of Pireus harbors domestic workers and brought their own cheap labor and said what you going to do? It's our harbour now".

Although, fascism can trip strong nation for it's inherent need for conflict to seek "natural order of mankind" anti-intellectualism and irrationality among other things

[Floppy2112]

The vial stupidity of the ungrateful. 99.9999% of everybody's stated political beefs can be settled with a little gratitude. Understand how good you have it, versus the very little bad, or often imagined made up bad you think there is.
I don't suffer fools gladly and I am very over sloganeering, virtue signaling and gesturing that so categorizes modern politics. People are too emotional and lack reason. What's fun about that?
I can lay out a very well thought out argument with references and data and in return I get hysterics, name calling and screeching about imagined problems.
All of it is a lack of gratitude.
For instance, did you know that abject poverty, starvation, meaning complete deprivation has been virtually eliminated? It's less than 10% where 30 years ago it was over 30%. And it's not a lack of resources that perpetuate the last remaining areas of abject poverty, it's political. Meaning that the world produces enough food for every person to have at least 2400 calories per day. The only people who do not have access to it live under regimes that will not allow them access to it. But over all isn't that a good thing? Should we not be grateful for that?

[razelove]

I'm never sure if that's more one of the causes of the current BS, or one of the symptoms, how thin-skinned people are by and large. Like harsh words will kill them. I'm torn between that, identity politics, and confirmation bias as we haven't had any of the three as severely as we have the last 15 years or so.

The ability to isolate into a group of homogenous people and separate from reality is a pretty new one. You know, besides literally isolating as a tribe which is no longer possible.

[Floppy2112]

You can do it, if you are willing to live where no one else is willing to. I am willing to bet there were tribes in Siberia who never had a clue they lived in a place called the Soviet Union.

[zed-789]

I’m not afraid. But I choose my words carefully when talking to certain people sometimes. Because people nowadays hate when others have a different opinion from them. To many people get so worked up to be “right” that instead of keeping an intelligent and informative conversation, it quickly turns into threats, assumptions and hate. If 2 people r on opposite sides of the playing field y can’t they have a great conversation understanding and hearing each other’s point of view? But nope always turns into the challenge of “I’m right, ur wrong, fuck u for not agreeing.”

[razelove]

I wish I could say you're wrong, but there are issues I get the same way over, only one coming to mind is guns, but I'm sure there are others that I get bent on and simply don't realize it. When there can be dialogue I do enjoy that though. There's a lot to learn from people who live in different worlds.

[flamiE]

I’ve given up long time ago. People tend to not even listen to you and jump straight into telling you how stupid you are for disagreeing with them and how dare you trying to give them a different point of view and change their mind lol it’s like by the end of the discussion you both have to agree to disagree when in reality it can be pretty fluid. I like to make people understand me and my way of thinking and not necessarily convince them I’m right. If it happens in the process, cool but that’s not the goal. You can support someone else but I respect you and your opinion. Also people normally get really passionate while having such discussions and I don’t really like that.

[razelove]

I get everything except the dislike of passion. One of the points of getting involved there is having strong morals or beliefs that align with what a candidate, bill, or law is for/against.

Can't say my experience is much different though, where people start repeating the same things louder and louder rather than actually talking. I don't want to convince anyone I'm right, rather I like it more when we can exchange ideas and convince each other that there are holes in our logic. The bullshit, pardon, the bill of goods we're sold by politicians is deeply flawed on both sides. To be able to recognize that on both sides is crucial.

There is no "right" in the solutions the right or left are offering right now, and that's what I view as most important, for people to realize that and try and think together on how to fix these things. Or at least decide together on less than ideal solutions rather than simply dividing into camps and flinging poo at each other like apes.

[flamiE]

I mean it’s understandable how some people can get a little too loud when it comes to defending someone who they believe represents their beliefs. But people have straight up yelled at me and even if they have a point (cause really when it comes to politics it’s never black and white) I can’t even make myself try and listen and eventually agree with them on some of the things because now my brain is busy trying to come up with something to defend myself and my beliefs.

I should’ve worded it better, of course there’s no “right” and “wrong” when it comes to politics. I meant trying to convince them to completely change their view.
And honestly, generally speaking people have forgotten how to communicate effectively, all they do is argue and they forget to even try and make the other understand. It’s all about providing points, throwing arguments at each other and not making each other understand. It feels like war when really it’s about “negotiating”. I’m all about having discussions and not arguing with people.

[razelove]

They probably get the idea that you hold a conversation like that from watching how their influencers talk to each other on Fox and CNN. Rarely are they talking, more often someone gets triggered, or disagrees with a point and just starts yelling something similar to "I'm rubber you're glue motherfucker!" over and over.

[flamiE]

Lmaoo good point

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

Everyone is too radical so it’s annoying to even bother. They don’t even bother to listen and also shove their ideas down people’s throats. I’ve had people nag me on end on why I should vote for Donald Trump. Then on the opposite side of the spectrum been called a heartless bitch when I explain that raising the minimum wage too much could cause business to close/inflations/joblessness , They don’t care I passed 3 accounting classes and learned restaurant cost control , I’m just a heartless bitch.

[razelove]

I'm in the center myself, and get annoyed about assumptions I lean one way or the other. If I do vote one way or the other it's because it's advantageous at the time. Generally we don't get grilled too hard for that one way or the other down here because everyone has guns lol

Minimum wage is a tricky one. Cost of living changes greatly depending on city, suburb, rural, and then the state that each is located in. It creates a perception if you live in a city with high taxes that it should be higher, or if you wind up in a menial job where you are expendable and there is no need or ability to pay higher. I figure let that be set state by state, people will migrate, and business with it. Whatever works best for whatever regions will endure and be replicated.

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

I think it needs to go up but 15 is way too much for NC. For a restaurant labor is typically 20-30% of the cost and it’s the biggest semi-variable expense. It’s scary to me that the average person doesn’t understand accounting and that people don’t have jobs if a business can’t make money.

[razelove]

15/hr here is more than the last job offer I had to manufacture drugs. It does vary very greatly by region. Why would most people understand accounting? Most people are looking to be employees, not employers. They do so not realizing the risk their employer takes on by keeping them as productive employees to turn a profit. If that ever turns from the black to the red it isn't just a few jobs that may be on the block, but an entire service. Why pay more for less performance in one country if you can pay less for the same shitty performance in another?

[Hyped_up_on_coffee]

They should teach the basics of it in school so they learn to manage finances , know the basics of entrepreneurship and to not become fucking socialists

[The_Maphio]

Nothing really. I'm old enough to understand when my opinion is going to kick the hornet's nest and my skin is thick enough to fight back some dumbass that attacks me with doctrine instead of valid points. In the rare cases of somebody with actual knowledge that can debate, instead, I find stimulation and investment in the exchange, and more often than not, the discussion comes down to a mutual agreement or at the very least, to a respectful agreement on a disagreement.
The problem is the ratio. 1 prepared debater every 1000 dumb fucks who don't even know on what side of the bed they woke up in the morning.

[razelove]

Yeah, you could make two accounts for twitter or reddit and post "The Earth is round, I voted for Trump" "The Earth is round, I voted for Biden"

Fuckers will start tearing down the idea of spheres and Newtonian physics just to prove how righteous "their" cause is.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well I don't fear discussing politics or anything that I feel is the truth. That said, the reason why others fear it is because the far left is a fanatical group that punishes any one who disobeys them and most people are to afraid to stand up to them (statistically on those in the far left feel comfortable discussing politics, moderates and conservatives statistically do not feel comfortable discussing it (because again, the left is violent and they hurt people who disagree with them and try to destroy those who disobey them).

[razelove]

Yeah, as much as both sides yell, I haven't heard of the right doxing and attacking. There are counter protests, people fight, but yeah, I haven't heard of the right going so much on the hire hit men and destroy path. In the left's defense, they do eat their own more often than outsiders though.

[hellionthesagereborn]

The right can be assholes but I will take an asshole over a sociopath any day (and that is precisely what the left is). As for the left eating their own, well that is only because they have eaten all the conservatives and this is what is left (though it is fun to watch them implode like that).

[Citizenkirk]

When I was 17, I had heated discussions about nuclear weapons, and the need for continuing discussion about the necessity of scaling back the number of ICBM's within our nuclear stockpile, at the peace talks in Geneva.

ONE YEAR LATER, I FOUND MYSELF GUARDING ONE, WITH STRICT ORDERS NOT TO TALK PIECE, BUT TO LET MY M16 DO THE TALKING, AS I WAS ORDERED NOT TO LET ANYONE CROSS THAT BARRICADE, AND IF ANYONE TRIES, "TO SHOOT TO KILL!"

[razelove]

Nice, ICBM, more advanced than the minuteman, is it a MIRV?

[Citizenkirk]

Hercules delivery vehicle with a low altitude, below radar level stealth guidance system, intended for medium range deployment within a 10,000 MI targeting resolution, placing North Korea, Japan, and a number of other Asian countries within its range as a last resort doomsday weapon. Not the government's terminology, my terminology, because these things were designed to go off after assets at NORAD and along the Pacific coast have been supposedly destroyed. These things were set to go off automatically if there was no one left alive to initiate a launch sequence manually. I heard that the yield was fairly low on these things, probably no more than a few kilotons, enough to destroy a small City, probably twice as powerful as Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but nothing more than a nuclear fart, compared to the other stuff in our stockpile on the mainland and overseas. These Nike site installations are scattered all along the Kahuku mountain range, starting within Koli Koli pass, all the way past Diamondhead, on the island of Oahu, Hawaii.

[razelove]

That is beautiful. I'd smash it if I wasn't afraid of irradiation, and, you know, being shot. So the first stage is merely to get a good parabolic arc up into the atmosphere, and the second to rain down hell on the target. That is so simple and elegant. All this time I've been making rockets trying to get one to break orbit, when my objective could have been so much more simple...

[Citizenkirk]

You would have had too get past local, state, and tribal police first, too get up that far into the mountains, than survive Blackhawk patrols with Army Rangers and Marine Recon units, than keep your fingers crossed that military assets in training from all four branches weren't putting away their blank adapters and miles gear and locking and loading live amunition and fixing to PVS 7 scopes, with telemetry feeds live from satellite data links, get threw Apache gunship engagements with Army and Marine pilots homing in on your position, thank to the most powerful satalite ground based monitoring system on the planet, feeding real-time Intel to military state and local authorities and me over my PVS - 7 Vincent interlink, with a 40. grenade loaded in my tube, 30 round magazine locked and loaded in the port and chamber, two other guys at my side, SAW (Squad automatic weapon) and M60 ready too rock, with firing resolutions established, just waiting for you too pop your bad ass head up too be instantaneously removed via fragmentation and high speed, high capacity minigun emplacements by the guys behind us, us, and everyone above, around, and on top of, your position, unseen but still there, ready for such unwelcome visitors. If you manage too get a shot off at that missile, you might be suspect of being an extra- terrestrial double agent, or something. No one would ever know, because there wouldn't be enough soft tissue left for autopsy or DNA analysis. This, of course, in 1989 technology.

[Citizenkirk]

Just to clarify, these cruise middles don't go up into the atmosphere and upper stratosphere into escape velocity short of low 🌎🌍 orbit like the MX models, they cruise below the radar blanket at no more than 20 or 30 feet about the water of the ocean surface, at speeds faster than a jet, but slower than an orbital booster rocket would need to go to reach escape velocity. The target would never see it coming.

[razelove]

I was going to say I bet we have higher speed, low drag gear now compared to '89... but then remembered that we still use the sidewinder missile for air to air, developed in the '50s, sometimes the best idea isn't the newest. That would be insane too, I wonder how they get them to avoid any obstacles at that low of altitude, if it isn't going parabolic, with a wing profile that small, it has to be going ludicrously fast to generate enough lift to not simply fall.

[HawkPerception]

Afraid to discuss it? No. A waste of time? Yes. My views are very simple. The current "politics" is a joke. It's just a means to control people with no ability to think for themselves and force themselves to align into certain factions which only help the current system thrive and continue. The current system can easily be changed/revolutionized to be better than it is and more suited to the human soul but no one wants to make that stand even though not many are happy. People can discuss their politics but it's all worthless in my eyes.

[razelove]

I agree with that. In the US both parties are pushing the authoritarian narrative, and their followers line right up saying "At least I'm not those dipshits!". The solution, as I was talking about with someone else here, is simple, more parties centered on issues rather than identity.

That could happen in Canada I think, in the US we're addicted to the "I'm special and these people are all special like me!" narrative, without seeing the irony there...

[Thedivinechic]

I don't anything on politics. And I definitely don't care for that topic anyways, because people that just blurt out random words about politics actually pretend they sound smart. But really, how they sound to me is ignorant because honestly you could NEVER really know a politicians true heart or motives. One, you don't live with them. Two, you have never met them. Three, you don't know their bad habits, vice, or upbringing. Four, the politicians don't know you. Five, why are you so concerned about this topic? I could go on but you catch my drift. Lol

[razelove]

I agree with 1-4. Especially since part of my interest in politics is knowing how ignorant I am, and searching for objectivity is tough as hell with the polarity and power grabs both sides make. My state is corrupt as hell, so I have no rosy images of politicians trying to help me unless it helps them.

I am concerned about it because it affects my livelihood and family. The motives are completely selfish and not altruistic (outside of my community). If I ever ran for public office I'd say as much... and never get elected lol

[Thedivinechic]

@razelove Hahaha 😂🤭☺️yup, keep raising love

[worldscolide]

i dont discuss politics much because i just hate it.. Its not fear. I hate that one side hates the other so much that they see them as worse than Nazis, when the reality is completely the opposite. I can't stand the woke crowd actively trying to cancel people.

Believe it or not, i had some idiot on FB track down where i work, and attempt to get me fired. It did not end well for her. She is serving a sentence for harassment last i checked, and i still have my job. My company does not bend the knee to the woke crowd.. Oh and this was because i had the audacity to suggest that women and men were already equal, and the majority of what feminists do is whining.

[razelove]

The growing divide between sexes is another, whole different issue. That one kind of dwarves politics, as if we don't reproduce, elections are kind of meaningless.

[purplepoppy]

All too often it degrades into a childish slanging match, libtard, republicunt and so on. People aren't interested in individual policies it's all "oh that's leftist I must automatically hate it..." things tend to turn sour when politics is brought up.

[razelove]

Yeah, we have lost the ability to debate in America past the level of playground insults. I know our politicians are more educated than that. It's probably just an appeal to our deteriorating education system that they use as their whipping boy and wonder why oh why does the performance keep getting worse?

[crmoore]

It started when Trump went into office.

Conventional news media was dwindling, people favoring other online sources, then an abrasive man took office and the media saw an opportunity to keep themselves afloat and they took it. He ran as a republican and was just abrasive enough that they could convince ignorant people that he actually mocks disabled people, calls white supremacists very fine people, or suggests people inject bleach into themselves.

Then over those four years, the media drove some people insane. Those people acted irrationally towards one side, and eventually that side got tired of it. Now we have our camps.

[razelove]

I think it started earlier than that, but yeah, that was the catalyst that got me to start paying attention to politics on a scale wider than simply my region. Also watch more than one news source, read from several.

[crmoore]

You could say it maybe began getting steam prior to Trump but Trump is really when it truly began. In my opinion, at least.

[Jenny4455]

Social media makes it very easy for people to slip into echo Chambers of unchallenged opinions. People also feel safer hiding behind keyboards and abusing people. The relentless propaganda on social media has led to many opinions being viewed as fact 'tell them your truth' is a phrase i hate to see.

[razelove]

I think the echo chambers are an effect rather than a cause. Keyboard warriors though, yeah, if I bring up similar topics on FB using my real name as opposed to here I don't get banned, blocked, or FB jailed, I can just hear the crickets and see emojis and nothing else. Certainly not 40 people responding within 24 hours.

[JackSmy]

What is the point, with the VAST MAJORITY? They are set in their "Ideas" of Truth, and I couldn't give to shakes of a limp dick, what they think.
I know they don't care what I think, however reasoned, and logical, and based on research my opinion might be, so I leave those to the "Drama Queens" to debate, ad nauseum!!

[razelove]

If their skin is that thin, see if the words actually will kill them. If you make a scientific study about that, it could be a good launching point to get people talking again. Though it would look a hell of a lot like an Onion article, the reality that it would take something like that to get the ball rolling for some people to talk is ridiculous.

[sawno]

Only thing that makes me more hesitant than i used to be in real life is the fact that i know the other people in my department at least the two bosses disagree with my political views and i am quite a new employee without a proper contract yet. So any big disagreement could ruin the opportunity. Outside of work i am very politically outspoken, and if asked i would speak my mind honestly. I just don't feel like its the right moment to interact in political discussions at a new job.

[razelove]

I'd avoid it at work unless someone starts cornering you there. My favorite lines at work are "sounds like a personal problem" "Fuck off" "Do your fucking job!" "Consider it done" "I need more funding"

I like to just zone out at work, after work, drinks or what not, sure, I'll down a pitcher of margaritas and we can talk. Otherwise, nope nope nope. I'm there to get paid, and get the fuck out the moment you say I'm not getting paid anymore.

I don't give a shit if you're asking me to click the lights off on the way out. Tape a dime to them, no money, no honey.

[ChrisMaster69]

Mainly because it’s invariably extremists on both sides that get involved, then stuff that’s apolitical suddenly is the cause of one side or the other.

A lot of stuff is the blame of successive governments playing politics and not simply doing the important stuff.

important stuff then becomes a political football, gets diluted by all parties and the end result is shit.

This then forms part of any discussion and no one accepts everyone was to blame

[razelove]

I'd say a minority are extremists, but a majority have paper-thin skin and will take offense to everything. I remember a girl telling me I was being racist and sexist for telling her to do her job, which was washing lab glassware at the moment. So I stopped for a minute, thought, then said "I'm sorry, I misspoke, do the fucking job you're being paid for now." I might have gotten written up for being offensive, but she washed the dishes.

The only political football I'm really worried about that has been tossed back and forth by both parties and used like a 20 dollar hooker is education. Our education is simply horrible in the US for the amount of money going into it. Just sitting at home reading books with my kids and encouraging them to write, draw, and count has them surpassing the school curriculum, and it isn't much effort or time. The spending chart I'll post illustrates that point well, cost per student, Louisiana funds our schools and students pretty highly, but consistently ranks lowest in education, and very low in income you can earn getting out of school.

spending-


social mobility-
lh4.googleusercontent.com/g5Nuiyvr7BGBmfT63OtUvSAr2kMJL3GlVzAyuX6fi5_A1zRVjbV_X3HQpUpxVmecNU8nN4roqOg5fCO6h8yL9ZpnJostNg4WdlLf7zBnsyR4PLk9ZDXv5zyqZaysbXk2C8zAun3s

people actually caring about why we rank 50th and gaining no traction-
utno.la.aft.org/.../why-louisiana-ranked-so-low-education

[ChrisMaster69]

This is that’s the US, you pretty much have 2 parties and people don’t change.

We have a lot of them here and people will one year vote Labour, the next conservative, the next SDLP, Indie etc.

[razelove]

Yeah, I envy that about the UK, oddly you have a monarchy, but practice democracy more than we do. Our version is more a pissing contest. I love our constitution and bill of rights, but I hate that each party uses it as part of that pissing contest to just go all over it when convenient, and our citizens don't see that both parties are essentially the same, just targeting different demographics.

Oh well, I'm not charismatic enough, and my past is too jacked to run for office to change that. Maybe when I reach retirement age I'll give it a futile effort and start a party to crash and burn like the green party and tea party did lol