Did you know that Ukraine is not a democratic state?

[Rambling010]

It is basically an authoritarian state. The leader there who is begging for help from the west silenced his political enemies through the press. Which is more or less dictated by what his political party wants to have it say or not say. It's also an incredibly corrupt country.
Everyone knows about Hunter Biden being on the board of Barisma gas company. And having no business whatsoever having that job with no experience. And Joe Biden telling them to stop an investigation into Barisma gas company or they wouldn't get billions in aid from Obama.
But Ukraine known to be corrupt in other ways and not only that one example. So it's basically two authoritarian states taking on one another. I'm not taking up for Russia, they are the aggressor and they have no right to be doing what they're doing.
But it's as if the media wants to paint Ukraine as some kind of democracy like we are in the United States. Or how it was in US before the media did the bidding of one political party. Thank God for the internet or their would be mostly all fake news. Like before Fox news there were no alternate news sources. And then then with the internet other news sources came out that weren't left-wing biased.
People say there are non-biased news sources, neither right or left. I ask you to name one. There are news sources who do not lie and manipulate. They basically all get labeled "right wing". If you don't follow the narrative, whether true or not you get labeled misinformation. You don't think so? Would you like examples? Just ask and I'll give you several. I might not have room on here there are so many but Im sure we can figure out something. I'm open to hearing examples too of when so-called right-wing media news sources got it wrong. And didn't come back and admit it. Which the Legacy Media never does. They just pretend like it was all true even though it's proven afterwards not to be. Like Russia Russia Russia.

Updates

+1 y

What is going on in Ukraine goes on in Africa everyday. No one ever talks about that because it's not on the media. It's not part of the narrative. People claim to care about brown people so much. Well go read up on Africa and what goes on over there everyday. People are so predictable. Whatever they care about is what they conviently were told to care about by the disgusting media. Even Fox News is doing it. Ukraine is not the example of benevolency in the whole world.

[nightdrot]

Yup - and so what? The issues at stake in Ukraine are not ideological.

On the American side, it was that victory in the Cold War that has prevented even an alliance of convenience between the USA and Russia. For Americans, at a deep cultural and therefore ultimately political level, victory in the Cold War vindicated their national experience.

Freedom, free trade, free markets. These things, Americans have been convinced at a very fundamental level, gave them victory in the Cold War. The further triumph of these values will, Americans assume, assure global peace and prosperity.

Thus, for example. the Americans are only now awakening to the costs of free trade with China and the consensus for such trade is only now beginning to ebb. On the Russian side of the question, Russia is still a dictatorship with a weak economy but a strong military, cyberwarfare capabilities and an intelligence apparatus.

To American politicians this has made it - almost reflexively - a rival power. Thus, for example, when President Trump DID make an effort to improve relations with Russia (as a counterweight to China), he drew fire not only from Democrats, but even within his own Republican party. America, they asserted, stands for freedom and thus must ally only with other democracies. (Thus also was born the various Russian conspiracy theories that the Clinton campaign attempted to shape and capitalize on in the 2016 presidential campaign.)

It is an ahistorical argument - and a self-defeating one - but no nation, not even dictatorships, shapes its foreign policy entirely free of domestic political influences. (Even Russia. Mr. Putin is playing to Russian nationalism in his own country, but in the process may end up making his country a satellite of China. He may take Ukraine, but not without a price in his future freedom of action.)

So long story short, Americans - and all nations - are shaped as much by their foreign policy victories as by their defeats. It would be better, perhaps, if they defined their interests entirely in rational strategic terms, but life and international relations are seldom so simple. Americans won the Cold War, and so they dance with the girl that got them there, even when the tune has changed.

Ukraine's current significance to the USA is rather based on its impact on several NATO allies. This especially true of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania and to a lesser extent Hungary. The loss of Ukraine to Russia, absent American security assurances to those aforementioned states, would undermine their strategic position and likely result in the collapse of NATO.

Please also note that the dispute over Ukraine has already, in any case, divided NATO. Britain has been aggressive about sending weapons and diplomatic support to Ukraine. By contrast, Germany is seeking to develop its economic and trade ties with Russia, while using NATO security assurances to protect its own security interests. France, (with some sotto voce help from Italy) in all this, has been quietly seeking to entangle Russia more deeply in Europe, thereby making it a counterweight to German influence in the EU.

CONT.

[nightdrot]

Put simply, there is a tangle of conflicting interests not just between NATO and Russia, but within NATO. For the United States to step in with a direct military intervention would likely please Poland, the Baltic States, Romania and the UK, but it would shatter German ties with NATO. This then effectively render NATO "null and void" as it is the fastest strategic access point to eastern Europe, including Russia.

Further, any confrontation between the United States and Russia plays out to the strategic advantage of the People's Republic of China. If the Americans and Russians are engaged in a conflict, (again, assuming that it does not go nuclear in which events all bets are off), China is left a free hand toward Taiwan and the South China Sea, This also meaning, in effect, that the USA would be abandoning Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and Thailand.

Put simply, the United States cannot walk away from Ukraine, but its interests require that it avoid war. If Russia invades Ukraine, there is little beyond diplomatic and economic sanctions that the United States can offer. A direct military conflict between the USA and Russia would split NATO, to the latter's advantage, and give China a free hand.

This is a game of three dimensional chess and not simply a test of wills. The historic interests of the major European powers are at play and in this case American direct interests are secondary. For the USA, this is about reassuring NATO's eastern flank, balancing the interests of NATO's other major members - the UK, France, Germany and Italy - in order to keep the alliance whole, and to avoid driving Russia and China closer together.

[Rambling010]

I would agree with practically everything you said unless I miss something small. Though most people will read that and it'll go right over their heads. Or they will stop after about the four sentence realizing that they're getting nothing from it. Not because it's not there but because they're not smart enough to understand it. They're thinking doesn't approach a chance to grasp the things that you're writing about. That's why people believe propaganda and lies. Because they're generally stupid. I hate to say that but it's the damn truth.

I don't have one day of college under my belt. I'm not the smartest person in the world but I've got a damn high IQ. Im not refined but I've read more than most I know.
I meet people that have been to college who could not find Ukraine on the map. Much less even find Eastern Europe on a map. They have their indoctrination but they forgot their education

[nightdrot]

Well, I wrote it for guys like you - and for anyone who is interested. I write because I enjoy writing and because someone, somewhere might profit from it. (I also work in politics and do this kind of thing for a living.)

If you did, that is good enough for me. Bluntly, there is much truth in what you said. I am no worshiper of the "common man" just because he is common.

[DaveJord]

@Rambling010 you're lack of a college education is apparent.

[DaveJord]

@nightdrot I do no agree with German thing... they have froze the pipeline deal. Germany will never leave NATO over the Ukraine. I lived there for 6 years, in the early 90's so the memories of Soviet Union in East Germany are still fresh and real.

It not about the US avoiding war anymore... war is upon us if we like it or not. Time toe the line and fight.

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord My mother was a native of Germany and in fact lived behind the Iron Curtain for a time. Indeed, recalls WWII. So on that one, I'll match you.

As for the rest, the Germans have to do a balancing act. They can't risk their security assurances and so make concessions where necessary. Please note, however, that even while finally and reluctantly giving in on the pipeline issue, they have stood in the way of taking Russia out of the SWIFT system and have refused to make other restrictions on Russian imports.

Bottom line, this is not to make Germany the bad guy - on the SWIFT issue they were also backed by Italy, which tends to play a balancing role between France and Germany and to this point had been backing France's line. The point is to recognize that nations have interests.

The parallel that everyone keeps making is 1939 or the Cold War. That is incorrect. The real parallel is Europe pre-1914. This is realpolitik, not an ideological contest and what we see with EVERY European state is them playing out their historic interests.

[nightdrot]

P. S. As to fighting a war with Russia, I offer my reply to this question - Why don't we put US troops in Ukraine? ↗

It was rated the AI Bot Choice.

[DaveJord]

@nightdrot Well the Germans are really inconsequential to this matter. Nobody rely on France or German... and Italy. But if US goes in others will follow. We WIN and Germany, France and Italy will be right back in the same place they were when it started. With NATO, but give up tge Ukraine without a fight... then yeah maybe German decides to go more Pro - Russian. And certify that pipe line.

Either way I am simply saying Fuck Germany and Fuck France and Fuck Italy.

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord Well, say that you may, but the alliance is typically based to the least common denominator. Hence, Germany effectively blocked the tougher sanctions that would have excluded the Russians from the global banking system. They did not want it, and so the USA, in order to preserve consensus and unity, gave it. Thus the rather thin gruel of sanctions that have been imposed thus far.

[DaveJord]

@nightdrot

What are talking about, German went with every EU sanction and even went one step further... they stopped the Nord 2 pipe line with Russia. They did that independently on their own. The SWIFT sanctions is complex issue... its not German dependent.

Your putting too much on the Germans honestly. They are firmly part of NATO and they are not taking any pro Russia view and Germans will not stand against Ukraine or NATO on this issue. They will never leave NATO.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60480734

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord Yup, got it. Germany had to balance its security interests with its economic goals. So it agreed to close down a pipeline that was not yet in use. Maintained the other ones and refused to countenance excluding Russia from the SWIFT network.

Again, it was the artful balance of interests. Not the simple either/or black & white that you have caricatured it as being.

In fact, the West's generally weak - and slow - response to Russia has been born of the varying and sometimes incompatible interests of the member states of the NATO alliance. In this, Germany toughened somewhat so as not to put at risk its security assurances from NATO and the USA specifically. At the same time, it hardly went as far as the USA (and really even more the UK) had hoped.

[DaveJord]

@nightdrot its not as complicated as you make it seem... the Germans and French are pretty transparent about their interests and for the most always have been.

So we in general agree but will disagree on the finer pionts. In end we have opportunity to make a game changing move... nobody expect Putin to be this stupid so everyone is kinda of figuring it out together.

But yes the response has been slow. But as an retired military officer... it takes time given scale and timing of this... we were not prepared for this major of a move... but the longer Ukraine stands the better the chances are the Americans will fight.

So watch and learn.

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord First, I have worked in politics for over 25 years. (In addition to having a dual major in communications and political philosophy and a minor in History.) Second, it IS complicated because human beings are complicated.

This, by the way, does not suggest that it is secret, but is rather latent. Inherent in the relationships between states.

Finally, prudence is always advised. Mr. Putin has made some mistakes, but the Western response has hardly been consistent, let alone characterized by excellence. One wishes for a Bismarck or a Disraeli or a Cavour, but there does not appear to be anyone of that level of statecraft out there.

This will likely peter out with Russia in a tenuous control of Ukraine. However, it could also go badly wrong.

[DaveJord]

I agree it will. peterout with Russia in control of large parts of the Ukraine and Putin will win.

Because academics like you, that will argue for not intervention and predunt measures against a highly calculated illogical and unrational move by Putin... if Nato puts troops in Russia will fail... thats game changing.

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord What's a "predunt measure."

As for academics, as I say, I have worked in politics - time as a Capitol Hill staffer, working with the U. S. Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, the House GOP Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare (in fact, my name appeared on a terrorist's hit list). I am hardly an "ivory tower" kind of guy.

That said, the application of history and reason to give context is too often missing in our politics. I endeavor, therefore, to exclude my emotions as much as possible.

To wit, it is hard to say what mental state Mr. Putin is in, but it is best to assume his rationality absent a proper physical and mental examination. Else the tendency will be to underestimate him/

Do recall - as a slightly more benign example - President Reagan was attacked as senile and mentally deficient. Yet all he did was bring inflation down from 14.5% to 1.1%, win the Cold War, restore the nation's sense of morale and patriotism and leave office more popular than when he came in. (The first President to do so since Eisenhower.)

If that is insanity and/or senility, we need more insanity/senility in government.

[DaveJord]

Lol... by end of Reagan term the alshimers was kicking in. But US will take an active role... we will see.

[DaveJord]

Germany supports SWIFT sacantions and in landmark U-Turn in policy Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine for frist time in its history releasing strategic arsenal stick to aid against Russia. Hell even Switzerland is impossing sacantions.

So like said with invasion Ukraine Russia fucked up... do math isn't all that complicated now.

Not sure who you did work in the government or if it was a lobbiest but might want to reevaluate some of these perspectives... because the world is ever changing. No fly zones are coming and yes Putin will posture and increase rhetoric on nukes... but nobody is talking about invading Russia. Ukraine is just going to be another Proxy War like Vietnam and Russian invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s.. but this time there real, true and tangible benefits in fighting it.

www.nytimes.com/.../germany-ukraine-russia.html

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord Yes, but Germany did not originally and now is still opposed to a complete ban.

What changed?

The Russian offensive has bogged down and - particularly with the suggestion that Russia has upgraded the status of its nuclear weapons - Germany is now putting greater emphasis on its national security and less on its economic security. Not a surprise and not new.

You may recall that Germany and Russia have had an on-again/off-again relationship almost before Germany became a state in 1871. You may recall the Three Emperor's League of the mid-19th century. You may recall even the German-Soviet pact of 1939.

Germany, like all states, must balance its economic interests and its security interests. Up to now it has placed its emphasis on the economic side, partly in the hopes of tamping down tensions between Russia and the rest of Europe.

Now that the Russians have launched their offensive - and moreover because it did not end quickly - Germany is having to rebalance its interests. Thus it is now taking a harder line - but even then not as hard as say the UK would have preferred.

There is nothing new here. Repeat - this is analogous to 1914, not 1939.

[DaveJord]

Well your tone and tenor has changed from you initial response... when said Germany would not support direct intervention. Well Germany has come out harder against Russia than most anyone... leading way and increased thier defense spending by 50%. Like said they would.. it takes time but what's your political theory suggest now?

They have recessed their own self interests economically and politically? Really? Guess you're coming round to my side of things now.

I think its more like I been arguing, up until Russia invaded Ukraine, the world to include Germany, was trying figure out ways to live with the status quo. But now with Russian troops in the Ukraine the status quo is no more, and Germany is preparing for one of many possibilities to include direct intervention.

We can debate if they will or won't, but everyone is preparing for it. No fly zones, military aid then?

www.reuters.com/.../

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord Actually no on two counts. At the outset, the UK and to a lesser degree the US was taking a harder line. Germany was opposing - outright - sanctions and particularly the exclusion of Russia from the SWIFT system.

Germany is taking a harder line now, as I mentioned, because it has to make a choice between its security interests (and particularly its dependence on NATO and the USA) and its economic interests. Again to add, please note, that Germany still does not support a full ban on Russia in the SWIFT system.

Germany's position has changed - and was likely going to. Just as Germany ended up leaving the The Three Emperor's League in favor of the Triple Alliance. Just as Germany decided that it had gained all that it could from the Nazi-Soviet pact. (Though that gets even more complicated given the ideological dimension. )

There is nothing Germany is not doing that it has not done before in the past history of a unified Germany. As to whether or not the German military would directly intervene, perhaps on a small scale. However, in terms of training and equipment, the German armed forces are far less important than they used to be.

[DaveJord]

So it seems that we do agree. Glad to see you coming around to my way of thinking. I do appreciate the rapport. So many clueless people on here.

I guess I am not as articulate as you... but in the end I saw Russia over playing its hand from the outset and always assumed German would come around for all the reason you have laid out.. where it ends is in question of course. And on that as it stands today, I think we do agree.

A successful Russia in the Ukraine is not good for anyone but Russia and thats the principle fact as it has been from the start. German, Italy, France and United States. Russia succeeds and Germany has less options... Russia fails and maybe Putin is out... well there will be better deals to be had all round, including greater benefit for the Russian people.

[nightdrot]

@DaveJord Well, now I am not sure what we were disputing.

As to Russia overplaying its hand, had it taken Ukraine in a day, it would have been fine. Everyone in Europe with ties to Russia would have stomped their feet and - after a brief interval - that would have been it.

As it is, the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis. As this has dragged out, the interests of powers like Germany have been more dragged into it and forced their hands. (Heck, even Switzerland has imposed some sanctions.)

As the old saw has it, victory has a thousand fathers. Defeat is an orphan. Suffice to add that as I noted at the outset, the American interest in Ukraine is indirect and derivative, but that does not make it less real.

Anyhow, I too have enjoyed our discussion. A pleasure.

[loveslongnails]

Yes, I'm well aware that the Ukraine is no angel. I've said before that it's difficult to care about which bully is the strongest and which gang is in charge. However, this is mostly because the Ukraine was interested in joining NATO, so Putin had to claim it was never really an independent country and Russia is just re-establishing what was theirs.

Your rant about Fox news providing a truthful alternative is ludicrous - they're just as bad as anyone else, only from a different view. The "idea" that anything "not left leaning" is "the keeper of all truth" is equally ridiculous.

Nor do I care to hear you name Breitbart, or Newsmax, or the Guardian, etc, as truthful sources of news that are mislabeled. Some of the best reporting I've seen was on Vice news, while the worst I've EVER seen was the commentary on OAN.

The reason the Ukraine is in the news, versus Africa, is that it's strategically located. If you want to be honest about it, the only reason wealthy countries give a shit about Africa is for their mineral resources. If the countries who controlled the metal you need for making cell phones were to try and nationalize their resources and refused to be bribed, THEN Africa would be in the news.

[Lionman95]

Though it´s true that Ukraine is still a corrupt country it´s a danger the USA isn´t free from either. If one wants to become president he needs millions of dollars to fund his campaigns, so at the end of the day money decides who becomes a candidate.
You can be well suited for the job, but if you don´t get enough money you´re campaign is over pretty soon.
A political leader silencing opposition through the press is already a dictatorship? Maybe he used the same way Donald Trump did it by calling everybody that didn´t report what he wanted to "fake news", so by that definition the US is a dictatorship as well.

[Slartybartfast]

Actually Ukraine has made great strides in combating corruption and moving towards a stable and prosperous free society. This is what Putin fears and hates most.

A free prosperous democracy would give Russians hope to overthrow the Putin cleptocracy.

[Rambling010]

That may be true. I didn't say I wanted Russia to take over. But I don't like authoritarianism. And this is how it starts. When your media lies to you and presents things in a way that furthers their goals. Now when that happens to agree with you you don't mind it that much. But what people don't understand is the next time it'll be something that you don't like. And you'll be the one that has to deal with it. If those bastards had the chance they would already have re-education camps. For people that don't believe their lies. They've already talked about it. I was a radical Progressive for years. Or I was around them would be a better description. I know exactly who they are. Some of you don't know anything different because you're so young. You don't understand that it can all go away very fast. And by it I mean freedom. It may sound cliche but it shouldn't be taken for granted. By the way I don't know how old you are. I'm just talking in general.

[DaveJord]

@Rambling010 Do think Russia is not Authoritarian? Putin is all but a dictator... sure he is a president in name but kills or imprisons anyone that speaks out against him... and put up puppet candidates to run against him.

[Rambling010]

Actually just forget it. I don't like to deal with people like you that don't pay attention to what they're reading. That's not what I said at all. I actually said the opposite but you hear what you want to hear. Because you have to have a bad guy. That's what the media has taught you to do. And you have to obey. You're weak minded

[DaveJord]

@Rambling010 I tried to read but your mindless rambling... I just feel. sad for people like you... because your so ignorant that actually belive this garbage.

[ibodi]

There are investigate in news reporter
how people get high from words and news reporters are happy that people discussed the news they reported look like what they make no matter what.
I dont get any feeling in the translated book in current generational book.
compare to the last generational books.

[SlightlyEccentric]

Yeah most former Soviet states are still pretty authortarian. Ukraine, Turkmenistan (which is essentially the North Korea of central Asia), Uzbekistan, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan... You name it. Only former Soviet states that are doing well are Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia (sort of), Poland and Mongolia (even though they are dirt poor).

[DCooper]

That's kind of the ironic part isn't it? Ukraine is just as corrupt as Russia. The key difference is the financial interest US politicians have with their little foreign aid money laundering schemes in Ukraine.

[DaveJord]

Your a jack-a-who are you the Russian payroll or you making yourself look stupid for free?

[Rambling010]

You are an idiot. Pay attention to what I wrote. . Pretend Im CNN when you read it.

[DaveJord]

@Rambling010. I think you have proven who idiot is.

[Rambling010]

The fool always thinks he is doing the fooling.

[Citizenkirk]

Ukraine is not much better than Russia, but invasion is still an unsavory way too proceed.

[goaded]

It's more of a democracy than Russia. You're spreading propaganda.

[goaded]

Currently, the US is not the best example of a democracy; functioning democracies don't have the losers insisting they won the election despite all the evidence. Getting people to legally vote for you is not "stealing" an election.

[Snakeyes7]

None of that matters if Russia takes over and continues to make it authoritarian.

[Rambling010]

No. All of it matters. I don't like to be lied to.

[Snakeyes7]

I don't either. But the idea of Ukraine already neing authoritarian doesn't surprise me at all because most governments in Europe are corrupt.

[DaveJord]

@Rambling010 you don't like it but you are spreading lies and misinformation.

[OddBeMe]

I’m not up on it’s actual politics, but they ousted Putin’s puppet in 2014ish…and then held “elections” for president. But transitions take time.

[Agape93]

Nonsense. Stop spreading propaganda

[EnglishEuropean]

That's a lie. Quit watching Tucker Quisling.

[Rambling010]

You are a group thinking clone. Actually judge things that happen using reason and truth. Measure something's worth through logic and contemplation than following along with what others tell you and what you wish was true. You are being duped.

[Agagagagaga]

Who is Tucker Quisling? Use your big boy voice and speak like an adult. Language matters.

I would think an Englishman would understand that.

[EnglishEuropean]

@Agagagagaga Google Quisling you might learn something.

[Still-alive]

Even if true it still Doesn’t justify invasion

[jimmy2]

To get into Nato they will have to be

[FunkyMonkee]

Does it matter?

[888theGreat]

Your point is?

[Rambling010]

My point is what you draw from the message I conveyed. If you are fairly good as far as observation goes you will note that I'm pointing out the media paints Ukraine as being a democracy. One somewhat similar to the United States or other western nations (being I speak of the western media).

Most people will think that Ukraine is similar to the United States when it's not at all. They will assume this based on the media's reporting. When in actuality Ukraine is more of an authoritarian state than a democratic one.

Most people do not know that. I would even make a gambit that you didn't know that either. Though I could be wrong of course. Not that you would likely admit it if I were right about you not knowing.