Which side of the debit ceiling debate are you on?

[OddBeMe]

I’m glad to see Biden throwing an elbow. For a while he was all cuddly with Repubs.

Responsibly raising the limit of what we already spent

Go into default and risk economic calamity

Updates

+1 y

Debit ceiling. Debit or credit?

[goaded]

You don't want to be a deadbeat country that doesn't pay what it's promised to, do you? Besides, it's unconstitutional not to pay the bills.

Some people would rather destroy the world economy and the future of the country they pretend to love, just to gain more power and force their undemocratic will on others. Mostly Others.

[goaded]

Bernie press conference with comment and context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWM1wXdogxc

[msc545]

To hell with the Republicans. They created most of the debt.

[msc545]

McCarthy is a lying piece of shit

[BrookeAZ90]

I'm probably missing something because I'm not super into politics but I'm not really understanding the debate. I get the 14th amendment could be phrased more clearly but if the debt "shall never be questioned" then a debt limit is unconstitutional and there's no need to do anything. I don't understand why people say that would need to be decided in court. Who benefits from suing to attempt to force a default? Both sides piled up the debt plenty and something does need to be done about it but that is the kind of thing you do when it's time to pass the annual budget.

[AngryCarl2]

Well the amendment refers to "the public debt... authorized by law", which means up to the existing debt limit. Any increase beyond the debt limit would be unauthorized.

[Anonymous]

Defaulting on the debt would be disastrous and neither party is going to let that happen. It’s all political theater by the republicans to use the threat to wring as many perks and concessions for themselves out of Biden as they can before they agree to raise the ceiling, which they really don’t oppose in the first place. Of course raising the debt ceiling can’t continue forever. Eventually America is going to have to pay a tax rate that actually funds the government and stop the endless borrowing……. or live with massive cuts to defense and federal entitlements.

[Stoner710]

We’re going to reach economic Clamity either way. (I’m rounding here.) there is roughly about $83 trillion in the entire world. The United States owes 31 trillion of that which is about 37-38% of the money in the entire world. It’s time to stop spending.

[OddBeMe]

Stop spending on what?

And remember, the debt limit was already spent. We have a stupid law that says we Congress can spend money and then vote to pay it off.

[Stoner710]

That law is stupid yes. Also stop spend on

Welfare
Social security
Department of education
FDA
CDC
NHS
Pretty much the entire executive branch except military
Reduce the salaries of the senior and house representatives

There a lot that needs to be cut

[OddBeMe]

Nhs? That’s British.

But what do we tell our grandparents who survive on Medicare and Medicaid? My mentally retarded bro who needs social security to stay alive?

[Stoner710]

You really on your local community. Church was a big helper for centuries, also friends and family members would help.

[Stoner710]

Old people, I’d say give everyone back what they put into social security yes that would hurt the government but it’s what need to happen

[OddBeMe]

Churches can’t and won’t pay the thousands of dollars to keep my brother alive.

[Stoner710]

They would actually, I was a Methodist growing up they pretty much paid for my college. Church goers are very charitable. Gofundme is also a very charitable website. I guarantee you you would make $100,000 to take care of your brother. More if you need it. I’ve donated my self. Kyle Rittenhouse got about $1 million for his court case I donated $20. Let people know you need help and they will give it to you. I’m poor I’m one of those people you think shouldn’t be legally allow to have children. I still give what I can. I’m on the boarder of Oregon and Washington. The turn in cans machines was fucking up on me yesterdays (05/23/2023) so I got 2.50$ from what I turned in, I was pissed. But I have it to a guy who had a cardboard Sigh. I gave him all of it he needed that 2.50 more than I did I still gave it to him. Why? I was born to an abusive mom I slept with dogs under the age of one outside in 32 and below whether I was fortunate enough to get adopted into a family that can help me. I still rely on family to help. Even though I’m trying to make it on my own. I do what I can to make money, all I need to good family good friends if what I have can help someone else even if it 2.50$ I’ll do it. If there is a god I hope he will look on me favorably because what I’m trying to do in this life.

[OddBeMe]

So…you’d make my mother and father who care for him do a go fund me year after year and hope they get enough to pay for him to survive? Serisously?

[Stoner710]

Go fund me churches help from your city and state government yes. Federal government can’t help you. How do you think people took care of children like that before welfare?

The fact remains our federal government can’t help you or anyone for that matter. Send me a like I’ll donate to you I don’t mind helping out.

[OddBeMe]

Well we’ve had success for 39 years with social security and Medicaid paying his medical bills and even a stipend for my mother who had to stop working to take care of him.

I’d just say, think about things like this before full supporting dumbass policies. Trump didn’t and got us into a load of trouble.

[Stoner710]

Social security will become insolvent by 2035. Same with Medicaid. We can’t keep spending on the federal level like we have been. If your going to rely on the government rely on your state not D. C

You think the federal government can protect you. It can’t. Set up a go fund me I’ll donate to you

[Bricealan]

How could Biden "throw and elbow"? He isn't even able to put on a suit coat or walk up a flight of stairs without falling on his ass? "Throw and elbow"? Really? You have to be able to lift your arms above your waist to throw an elbow?

[Juxtapose]

I'm not a fan of the Republican measures because it's more of the same shit where they screw over poor people and give breaks to the rich.

Of course spending should come down but not at the expense of the common man, not when the rich have been robbing us for so long.

[Tyrael]

I feel like this happens every time the debate comes up. They threaten to vote against it to get some concession, but they vote for it in the end because they're not that stupid as to actually let the market crash.

[goaded]

This time it looks like they might be that stupid. McCarthy can be deposed by a single representative; what if Greene decides that would be a good way to delay a vote? Without a leader of the House, I don't think there can be a vote on anything else.

[ParamountMajestic]

When you raise the debt ceiling, you make the dollar worth less. What is so important to raise the debt ceiling? And Biden has been a jerk to republicans. What planet are you on?

[jamesgoldman]

I don't care, whichever one makes gold more expensive and probably will finish the US dollar stranglehold on world markets when the gold backed Yuan turns up

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Not following it. I gave up on American politics.

Both Republicans and Democrats as a whole are a bunch of clowns to me.

All they are good at is constantly pointing the finger at one another.

[Anonymous]

More debt means eventually the whole economic system collapses eventually, the longer it continues the bigger the disaster. Of course it will be an even bigger harvest this time for the big money men.

[goaded]

I just read a good point by an economist about the difference between personal debt and government debt: you will die, the government won't. Governments can go on paying off debt forever (the UK government just recently finished paying off the debt it incurred to free the slaves in the early to mid 1800s, for example).

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded the uk economy was in shit for 70 years as it paid off debts of ww1 & ww2.

[goaded]

Should we have not fought those wars? The economy was pretty good in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. The country is really up shit creek now, but it has nothing to do with old debt, everything to do with Brexit. Even Farage is admitting that it was a mistake, and it was largely his fault.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded your bio says your German so your country probably shouldn't have.
WW1 probably could have easily been avoided and WW2 could have been avoided but right or wrong the two world wars were a catalyst for major global change.
The late 20th century is around the time that Britain finally paid off its ww1&2 debts by 1990, the mastrict treaty was signed 1993 and the economy was on the rise because it could do nothing but go up after massive decline in the 70s and 80s

[goaded]

No it doesn't, it says I live in Germany. Our kids' granparents were on opposite sides, but still teenagers in WWII. So, historic debts were paid off by the 1990's, what happened since then?

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded there was a massive boom in the 90s, then the credit crunch and then austerity, BREXIT, Covid and soon another financial meltdown stemming from bad America

[goaded]

Well, I can't argue with you there, although only Covid wasn't avoidable. None of it was because of excessive debt (in fact "austerity" was an attempt to bring it down).

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded I think austerity was a way of making it through the economic downturn.

[goaded]

There's a lot of economists with good track records who will tell you that it's precisely the wrong approach to use when the economy isn't doing well. Government spending in rough times keeps people employed and helps the recovery.

www.epi.org/.../
www.americanprogress.org/.../

(Good catch on the Germany thing, by the way, I do like discussions with people who can read and look things up, all too rare on here!)

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded it a way of protecting those with money. But also if you look at what thr democrats do in America their whole thing is pursuing policies that appear to be socialist for helping the people but are really about the transfer of tax payer money into the hands of corporations.

[goaded]

Surely the answer to that is to elect better Democrats rather than vote for people who openly transfer tax payer money into the hands of corporations? (The debt was coming down in 2000, until Bush and the Republicans cut taxes.)

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded you are only given the choice to vote between corporate sponsored Democrats or republicans all of whom in general maintain the party line.
The debt was coming down by 2000 because the US economy was booming, then came the Afghanistan war in 2001, the invasion of Iraq 2003, 2006 the housing bubble busting, 2006 credit crisis followed by the 2007 world recession. Its easy to pay the national debt down when the economy is booming.
Also I would also point out that yes republicans lowered taxes and democrats "protested" this but when they got in did nothing stop it or later to change this.

[goaded]

"Afghanistan war in 2001, the invasion of Iraq 2003" These were choices, so was the tax cut that changed the surplus back into a deficit.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded were they choices that either left vs right made? Bear in mind that a lot of this was approved by votes from both parties.
If you want to know what was done and why it happened you look at who benefited the most from these events and everytime its the exact same people with the taxpayer being the one who loses out as all the money is funneled up.

[goaded]

Hmm, the first Bush tax cut got a dozen D votes, one R vote against (McCain), the second was closer, with just 3 D's for and 3 R's against (don't you miss the times when Republicans would occasionally vote against their party?). (That's in the Senate, by the way.)

What's interesting is that neither vote would have got past a fillibuster. Democrats could have killed it, but didn't. Was it because they believed the majority party should be allowed to execute their policies, or because they really wanted the bill to pass? I'd like to believe the former, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that wasn't the case. Of course, over-use of fillibusters came in when Obama became president, which makes the former more likely, in my opinion.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded so what you are saying is that even though they could have stopped it the democrats allowed it to pass yet opposed stuff like an immigration bill majority party should be allowed to execute their policies? Does that sound like a plausible reason or more likely that democrats couldn't support it politically but could just let it happen because it benefited them and their corporate patrons? Patronage being part of the old Roman Republics Oligarchal system which the US mirrors very closely.

[goaded]

You could very well be right. It's a reason to elect better Democrats, though, not to vote Republican.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded both are the same funded by the same patrons who back both sides so they don't lose and are swayed by the same lobbyists. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

[goaded]

Well, clearly it does, otherwise we would not be having a conversation about whether the debt ceiling will be raised or not.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded we are witnessesing the greatest transfer of wealth jn American history, we are heading back to how things were during the gilded age

[goaded]

Maybe, but that won't be stopped by defaulting, pensions, welfare, food stamps, etc. will.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded pensions are essentially a pot of money invested, if the politicians can find away to access it they will, if corporations can find a way of stealing it they wood.
Even welfare if you look at it, how much of that is giving back money to citizens who were over taxed.

[Siri137]

Here's a third option: live within your means for a change.

[goaded]

People get old and their income goes away, governments don't. Being able to service your debts is living "within your means".

[Siri137]

@goaded Not having debts in the first place is what governments should strive for.

[goaded]

Shouldn't everyone?

Do you have or intend to have a house some day? Did/will you save up the full price for one, or get a morgage so you can live there while you're paying it off, saving the rent you would otherwise pay?

Governments have been borrowing money to pay for things for centuries, the only problem comes when people don't trust the government to pay what they owe.

[Siri137]

@goaded You're not seriously comparing government debt to a mortgage are you? Holy crap. Go away. Just leave! There's the door! Begone!

[goaded]

Of course I am, it's simple economics.

[AngryCarl2]

When America sneezes the world catches a cold so I hope you get it sorted. The debt ceiling is a stick for the opposition party to beat the government with, it's never about fiscal responsibility.