Is John Fetterman right?

[Juxtapose]

Updates

1 y

For context, the New York Times interviewed a senior official of Hamas.

[MisterWack]

"No idea why NYT would platform this propaganda from a terrorist... Hamas is no different than WWIl Nazis and I fully support Israel's commitment to neutralize them."

- Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA)

I don’t know the specific context of what was said in the NYT so, can’t exactly agree with / disagree with the sentiment on that front for one.

I will agree Nazis being all about Anti Semitism and you having Hamas attack Israelis on the principle of Anti Semitism is a damning comparison. What I would argue with is, both are complex issues. Nazis put Jews & other groups in gas chambers & furnaces & committed war crimes throughout WWII on the basis of Authoritarian control. Hamas is a terrorist group that rose to power because they were the only political faction that would seemingly stand up for Palestinians even though they had ‘some’ extremist beliefs.

Speaking of Hamas, they attacked Israeli civilians on Oct. 7th 2023 and Israeli govt promised to send troops in to wipe the terrorist group Hamas off the map along with an additional promises to bring the hostages home. I’ve seen the tens of thousands of innocent men & women & children laid to waste viciously and brutally in the name of justice. Justice was getting those hostages back and getting the terrorists responsible wiped off the face of the Earth, I haven’t seen justice. I’ve made my stance clear based on both sides…. Israeli Forces and Hamas are corrupt pieces of crap playing saint all to do war crimes against the Religious Believers / Preachers they disagree with and in doing so have both spread Anti-Muslim & Anti-Jewish rhetoric (primarily Israel increasing Anti-Semitism as a result)

It is becoming clear and clear that Israel won’t get the hostages back and Hamas will always be there…. No more senseless killings and violence, even the Israeli citizens have protested against govt intervention. This is similar to US involvement in Vietnam, yes we spread good intentions though when we saw Government’s dirty work it was time for change and I believe that is what is happening in Israel.

[DrPepper12]

Great reply!!!

[MisterWack]

@DrPepper12 I just want peace and happiness, no more suffering for ALL civilians & citizens within both borders. Israeli Govt & Hamas don’t have the best interests of the people only mass killings based on hatred of those that don’t read / preach what they read / preach. It is criminal, evil, and shouldn’t be.

[razelove]

I agree with the last part of his statement. For the first part though, it isn't surprising. New York Times and many other media outlets have been playing the hierarchy of victimhood as the main strategy of determining who is right or wrong for over a decade now.

Hamas, despite being a terrorist organization receiving international aid, engaged in a war they provoked with hostages they still won't release, fits the victimhood narrative more so than Israel. The logic is so twisted, because they are an artificially created victim state.

[Caroline91]

I think that in the journalistic world this interview would, according to their definition, be considered news. However, I think in today's world, all legitimate news sources need to balance the principle of news coverage with the responsibility of not promoting and legitimizing terrorist organizations.

[Juxtapose]

Yeah while at the same time trying to paint Israel as some sort of monster, it does come off a certain way now doesn't it?

[Caroline91]

@Juxtapose. Well what do you think of the number of civilian casualties in Gaza?

[Juxtapose]

"The death toll among civilians in Gaza — even including children and women — is among the lowest in the history of comparable warfare. The media’s double standard against Israel buries this."

aish.com/civilian-deaths-in-gaza-relatively-low/

"Israeli government spokesman Avi Hyman on Monday reinforced Netanyahu’s message, saying that the Israel Defense Forces had killed more than 14,000 terrorists and approximately 16,000 civilians since the outbreak of the war on Oct. 7.

“Israel is setting the new gold standard for urban warfare with what appears to be the lowest civilian-to-combatant casualty ratio in history,” stated Hyman.

Last week, the United Nations admitted it overcounted the number of Gazan children who have been confirmed killed in the war by a staggering 42%."

www.jns.org/.../

[bluesparrow]

I'm not a historian, but common sense would dictate you don't take a man's family from him, and then ask for a cease fire. It just doesn't work that way.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/LX6kVRsdXW4

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes, it sounds like it.

[lightbulb27]

yes mostly. they have some legit issue historically and are living in a repressed cage. Bound to create animosity. But yes they are terrorists. Are the children terrorists... not yet. Israel is making a whole new batch of terrorists, orphans, and such. In the past, they'd just kill everyone, but people kept coming back into the area.

as well, is what israel just did (blow up many devices by remote) terrorist? seems like it.

Just wait til there is more drone technology, micro warefare, chemical warefare. All is possible now.

and there is no solution in sight.

nobody talks about the root issue... it's long since lost in the bitterness. This is a family squabble... they are relatives!

[DrPepper12]

Great answer!!! 👊🏻

[lightbulb27]

@DrPepper12 Thank you!

[mattthefatbat]

I agree he's right. Sure it's just a comment about it and it's two different scenarios and countries but like the attack on Jewish families during the holocaust it was a massacre. Like then most people didn't side with Nazis, so I just don't see why anyone or any country in favor of a better future would side with hammas after that October 7th

[BetaBucks]

No. Hamas isn't even remotely close to WWII Germany. Barely even a blip on the map. Zero capacity to conquer and expand. But they're combatants who agreed to be combatants, so it's game on for them. Just like any military or paramilitary org. Let's just leave the civilians out of the fight.

[Juxtapose]

You're not going to have war without civilian casualties.

[BetaBucks]

That's why we need to promote conflict resolution over war, and condemn the types of attacks that are most likely to harm civilians. Men should be fighting face to face, like men.

[Juxtapose]

Actually I totally disagree. The notion of being gentleman like or honorable in war is laughable at best.

Do you know what we did the Germany? We killed 2 million of their civilians. Do you know what we did to Japan? We fucking nuked their civilians.

And guess what? It worked!

You can bet your ass if we ever get invaded by aliens, they're going to target our energy production first to completely cripple us and that is near civilians. They will not care and if we are restricted by gentlemanly warfare, we will be completely unused to those tactics and crumble like a stack of cards.

[BetaBucks]

You and I are aligned on most things, but not this one. I detest war for this exact reason. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck every every non-conscript military member in the world died (in combat) tomorrow, but I lament the loss of a single civilian over any conflict. And I think killing in ways that will obviously hit the innocent is worse than laughable, so I'll take the one.

But I'm not naive or retarded. I know what war is and I know it will never change (FONV reference for the W) but I'm not going to be one of the supporters unless I see men meeting on the field like Gettysburg again. I'll just condemn all sides of wars.

[Juxtapose]

The days of people facing off like in Gettysburg are long gone. War is going to happen one way or the other so why not be realistic about it and maximize your chances? I personally think at the very least people should become accustomed to the idea of total war and properly prepare energy production centers against attack. Our electrical grid is completely vulnerable to an EMP attack as well and that would kill a lot of civilians. But we are too comfortable and that is going to fuck us.

https://i.ibb.co/5BsC7F7/hqdefault-1.jpg

[BetaBucks]

Oh, I'm fully prepared on my end, because I do accept the dogshit reality of human nature. Humans will always rape, murder and molest children too. And I'll be prepared to fight it and will still speak out against it. And I'll never support killing innocent people to maximize chances for economic expansion. I'd go some other routes that I can't mention here though.

[Dongie]

Nice words for a people that is still receiving the shitty end of the stick.

Damn right he's right. I wish there was an existing group, large enough, consisting of senators and from congress fully armed with truth and honesty from both sides of the isle ready to take on the established criminal syndicate that is in control and membered in our F. B. I. & C. I. A.. Already in possession of the evidence to totally take them down. That would be the second Independance Day for America.

[Drewtate]

Military personnel are fair game in war. No different than sending artillery or bomber aircraft. Would it be fair game if Israel intercepted shipments of AK rounds and tampered with 1 out of every 100 so that when hamas or hezbollah fired at Israeli personel eventually the ak would blow up in their faces killing them?

[BCA6010]

Broadly speaking, yes, but that doesn't mean Hamas shouldn't be allowed to speak (and hang themselves with lies). You can discredit Hamas most easily by just showing people what they openly proclaim, not by silencing them.

[Twalli]

If Israel was actually able to minimize civilian casualties, then I would be in favor of their actions. They aren't, so while I agree that HAMAS needs to be destroyed, the way Israel is doing it presents a problem.

[Juxtapose]

You have bought into the propaganda.

Why do people believe the anti-Jewish narrative of Israel being genocidal? ↗

[Twalli]

I'm not saying they're genocidal and I'm not saying that they'd want to minimize civilian casualties. I'm saying that they're not minimizing civilian casualties, regardless of their desire.

[Avicenna]

Yes, they are minimizing them. Maybe you should read up on what usually happens in war. Then again, there aren’t going to be any leftist propaganda sites that are fair to Israel.

[Twalli]

@Avicenna and because of that I should read right wing propaganda?

[Avicenna]

If you really think the Israelis aren’t doing enough to minimize civilian casualties, look at, for example, the US experience in Iraq. How many civilians died there, and why? Do you feel that Hamas has appropriately avoided exposing civilians to harm?
Keep in mind that many putative civilians are actually Hamas members ir helping Hamas (note how many civilians helped Hamas on Oct. 7th).

I’ve already exposed on another tread that you’ve fallen hook, line, and sinker for leftist propaganda. Consult other sources- and there must be good ones out there on civilian casualties in urban warfare.

[DrPepper12]

Ummmm... Cuz that's a journalist's job? I like him a lot but sometimes he says some really stupid shit.

[Avicenna]

It’s not a journalist’s job to legitimize a terror organization, nor is it appropriate. You do know that terror organization wants all Jews dead, right?

[Juxtapose]

@Avicenna ^^

[Avicenna]

Pepper seems to be blissfully unaware that most of the people that hate Jews aren’t wearing Nazi gear.

[Juxtapose]

@Avicenna if you want to see real Jewish hate just look at how the Arab world is taught to react to Jewish people. It's fucking disgusting.

[Avicenna]

Oh, I am well aware of it as someone who has spent a lot of time around people from the Middle East.

[DrPepper12]

Please do tell. What is the job of a journalist documenting a conflict?

[KostasKouvalis]

Yeah, I agree with him. And thanks for the update. Like we're just supposed to know what NYT stands for

[Lliam]

Zionist colonists are worse than Nazis.

[Juxtapose]

I showed the following video to a historian and they told me that besides it misrepresenting some of the deals, it is mostly accurate:

https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0?si=snrwrpTVIUvk6ClW

[Caroline91]

The rationale in this video appears solid. However, it is severely lacking adequate context.

The establishment and expansion of illegal Jewish settlements in the Occupied West Bank constitute a major challenge to the possibility of a two-state solution by violating Palestinian sovereignty, threatening civil peace and security, jeopardizing water resources, and blocking agricultural development.

Over 670,000 Israeli settlers now live in the West Bank, of which approximately 220,000 live in East Jerusalem. One of the biggest sticking points in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict is the long-running territorial dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, both of which claim Jerusalem as their capital city. A key issue here is that the territory regarded by Jewish people as their ancestral homeland is also regarded by Arabs as historically belonging to the Palestinians. Both sides have religious and historical connections to Jerusalem.

So, two of the major reasons Israel's two state solution offers keep being rejected by the Palestinians is that those offers invariably include the West Bank as part of the would be Palestinian territory, which is already recognized as the larger of the two Palestinian Territories (the other being Gaza), yet hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers are there illegally and Israel offers no solution to that problem. Another is that Israeli proposals all include Jerusalem as Israeli territory.

These are just a couple of the issues involved in gaining a two state solution, there are others, as well.

[Lliam]

Beginning in the 1800s, the Zionist settlers established Jewish-only settlements and displaced Palestinians from the land on which they had lived and worked for centuries. The Zionists were insular and excluded the indigenous people. With great wealth supporting the colonial plan, they too over more and more real estate and alienated their neighbors. This created hostility and fear.

Indigenous Jews had lived in Palestine for centuries without strife or animosity. Palestinians initially even welcomed refugees until the Zionist plan to overrun the country became apparent.

And there was the Balfour Declaration in 1917 in which Britain took it upon itself to create a Jewish state in Palestine without any consultation with Palestinians. There are reasons why Britain did that, but I won't go into them here.

By the 1930s, colonists from Russia and Eastern Europe were flooding in. At the same time the idea of Palestinian nationalism was on the rise. But while western countries recognized the independence of surrounding states like Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, they refused to acknowledge Palestinian aspirations.

The settlers were well armed and the peaceful Palestinian population was not. Someone was arming the settlers.

In the 1940s, Zionist terrorist gangs began attacking British troops and trains in Palestine. They blew up the King David Hotel. All in order to drive the British out so that they could initiate their plans for a hostile takeover.

Then in 1948, just before Israel declared its own independence in defiance of the UN and the British mandate, Zionist gangs destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces' atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 unarmed Palestinians, including women and children. That terror campaign caused more than 750,000 Palestinians to flee toward Gaza as refugees.

Israel would have people believe that it was a matter of self defense.

[Juxtapose]

@Caroline91 there has never been a Palestine though, that was a construction of the British colonizers. Israel was given land fairly and when they were attacked and advanced, they kept the land they won from the attackers. They would have never had that happen if they were not attacked.

Israel removed every single Jew out of the Gaza Strip and they still complain.

[Juxtapose]

Frankly if I was in charge of israel, I would not negotiate with Hamas. I would be aiming for extermination of Hamas and minimizing civilian casualties.

You know, this is like if in World War II people exclusively protested about German casualties and no other casualties. They would come off as Nazis.. no? Same deal here. There is a group that is called Hamas that is filled with rabid Jew killers and they even reward Arabs in the Gaza Strip monetarily if they kill an Israeli or a Jew. They don't care if the victims are combatants or not.

[Lliam]

Juxtpose just repeats hasbara talking points like a parrot. He not only refuses to do any research, he is incapable of it. Cracking a book would be difficult.

He even refuses to read history books by Israeli Jews who oppose Zionist policies.

The art of deception: How Israel uses ‘hasbara’ to whitewash its crimes:
www.trtworld.com/.../the-art-of-deception-how-israel-uses-hasbara-to-whitewash-its-crimes-12766404

He believes fairy tales with fanatical zeal. That's all he knows of history.
He has been turned into an enthusiastic supporter of the most egregious crimes in history, akin to the holocaust - the forced expulsion of millions, theft of an entire country by racist colonists, and the sadistic slaughter of tens of thousands of people, mostly women and children.

His mind is seething with vicious hatred of all Muslims and Arab-speaking people because he has been programmed to do so. That's the same reason why Nazis hated Jews and why white supremacists hate black people.

He relies on cartoons made by Christian-Zionist propagandists to make his arguments.
The "historian" he referred to is a history professor who probably did their thesis on the Renaissance but has no knowledge of Palestine or the Middle East.

[Juxtapose]

I have talked to an actual historian and also listened to Mosab, the son of one of the founders of Hamas who had spent more than 20 years in that organization.

You don't know the first iota of what you are talking about because you are brainwashed by a terrorist organization.

[Juxtapose]

https://youtu.be/_j2mXvZHTuo?si=aUZ5GSxQ5LaZMBx7

Here is Mosab for people to judge for themselves.

[Caroline91]

Absolutely Hamas needs to be 100% wiped out and the world needs to stand with Israel in that. I was addressing the video regarding why there hasn’t been a two state solution established yet.

[Lliam]

That video is all you need to know, eh. LOL.

What was the topic of your "historian's" thesis?

[Juxtapose]

@Caroline91 well the simple answer is with the deals that were good, the Arabs refused them for whatever reason. I think it is the leadership that is screwing over the average person, the Arab leadership.

[Lliam]

Deals that were good? That's like apartheid South Africa saying that semi-autonomous Bantustans were a good deal for the indigenous population.
Did Israel EVER approve of an independent Palestinian nation alongside Israel? No. Israel always insisted on being an occupying force. You know, like security guards in a prison.

Ever since its self-declared independence in 1948, Israel has always been murderous, cruel, sadistic, parasitic, and dishonest. It has treated the Christians and Muslims of Palestine as sub-human savages, the same way U. S. settlers treated Native Americans.

[Juxtapose]

No, Israel offered some pretty sweet deals and even was willing to give away a lot of land so their enemies would have more land than them. But the arabs rejected the deals every time.

The thing about Israel being some evil, mustache twirling villain is absurd.

[Lliam]

"No de derp." Too bad you have no clue. Endless empty arguments. You are a fanatic. Go murder some babies. Maybe collect some scalps.

Israel offered disingenuous deals under international pressure. But they opposed independence and viability. They would remain an occupying force.

They are not like some evil, mustache twirling villain. They're ore like nosferatu.

[exitseven]

Oddly enough once in a while he makes sense.

[bluesparrow]

We've all heard those strange stories about something strange, like a guy getting hit in the head with an object, and somehow they're now a concert violinist...

[QuietRunner]

he is 100% correct

[jamesgoldman]

Yes he is