If men shouldn't have any say in abortion, then shouldn't men not be forced to pay child support?

[Anonymous]

Yes

No

[Zack-Bann]

From a fairness standpoint yes


But it’s not really solving the problem it’s making it worse


In truth, men SHOULD have a say in the fate of their own unborn child


This logic of priority based on bodies is hypocritical.
Because men can’t get pregnant so it’s not a matter of choice.
But women will be quick to talk about child support as a consequence of having had sex
Only it takes two to have sex therefore she’s also liable to consequences as well


And I don’t mean an all or nothing thing of course
I have no problem with abortion itself.
If the pregnancy was a drunken mistake neither parent wants or can afford, if it’s the result of an assault, if the father was only in town for a few days and left forever etc…


But in the case of a willing partner who got his woman pregnant and is willing to take responsibility, I believe he is owed a “say” and not just to stand back and wait for her to decide on her own if or not to kill the kid

[Anonymous]

Yes, men should have the option to opt out of being a parent just like women do.

The reality is that the ubiquitous "her body, her choice" argument is nonsense because 94% of abortions are done for reasons completely unrelated to the mother's body. Most abortions are done for reasons like not wanting a child to get in the way of career or education plans, not being financially stable enough to take on parenting, not being in a stable relationship with the father, not being mature enough to be a parent, or simply not wanting to be one. In other words, all the same reasons a man might not want to become a parent. "Her life, her choice" is the more realistic option, and not allowing men the same choice is pure sexism.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3729671/

[melssvdv]

What is this nonsense "her body, her choice"? Isn't about the infant's body we are talking about? What is wrong with modern women?

[CalmUntilAbused]

@melssvdv Yes, it is the infant's body we are talking about. As for what is wrong with (most) modern women, You should know it better than anyone here, being an ex-feminist... 😁

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

So men should not have consequences for having sex, only women? Seems pretty one sided to me. Whether it be by carrying a child or go through the process of an abortion, the burden is on the woman.

Besides, the two don't correlate really. A woman who keeps the child is also responsible for the financial aspect. A father should also be responsible for it. Men seem to forget that when they have this argument. They are just more worried about their money than their own child.

On the other hand, no, men should not get to decide if a woman should be forced to carry a child for 9 months and give up her health, and possibly her life in some states who dont perform abortions to save the life of the mother in medical emergencies. Men should be able to provide their wishes and thoughts on the matter, but at no point should they be able to force the issue.

[MrChinaski]

Exactly what I should have said, far more eloquent than I was.

[aceleon]

forced victimhood, if it is only your choice to keep or get rid of the child it is only your responsibility to pay the money.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Fine. Tell you what, if it bothers you that much, have science give you an artificial womb and you can carry it for 9 months, otherwise, it's not victimhood at all. It's the circumstances of nature.

Women get the choice if we want to put our bodies on the line. If we do, then both parties will forever be responsible for that life.

If we don't then that's OK too and men are able to shirk their responsibility then at least until they can put their body where their mouth is.

[aceleon]

did i choose to have the baby? no?, did i use protection to not have the risk for a baby? yes, why am i paying for your decision?

[MrChinaski]

@aceleon You do the crime, you do the time. Look at yourself? You call yourself a man?

[aceleon]

@bddddd yes pretty much.
crime? for what? for having PROTECTED sex? wow, i didn't know it was a crime.
and i certainly didn't know if i didn't offered myself to financial slavery i wouldn't be a man.
keep your ''manliness'' to yourself old chump i rather not be an total idiot instead of a man in your twisted simp eyes.

[MrChinaski]

@aceleon IT'S YOUR CHILD. YOURS. HERS and YOURS. You pretend you are making moral argument to utterly betray and damage YOUR CHILD., YOURS,

[aceleon]

@bddddd there are no child there, it is just some egg that got inseminated, has no conciousness till it is 3 months old.
keep your emotional outbursts to yourself grandpa i have no interest for such parlor tricks that you use for looking like you are presenting an important case.
no conciousness? no different than the sperms i kill every time i have sex for fun or masturbation or the mensturations of the girl i did the deed.
will you call me out on for the sperms i waste on non-child bearing sex i do too?

[MrChinaski]

@aceleon I get that you are angry with the mother. I get that you disagree with her decision. That is all fair. Be angry. That is normal. What I am saying is don't take that out on your child. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. I apologise for some of my tone earlier.

[aceleon]

@bddddd no worries, but my belief stands, there is no child to take it out on, it is not even a proper zigot and if she wants that child she is the one who will pay for it, her choice her responsibility not mine, it was her own cruelty and selfishness that bought that child into a life where they won't have a functioning family with a father and mother who are together.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

1. Did you choose to have the baby? Yes. Yes you did when you chose to have sex and where did it say anything in this scenario that protection was even used?

2. Watch the insults. I wouldn't want to have to remove your comments.

3. Financial slavery? No, it's called responsibility. Own up to it. Be an adult.

4. Her choice, her responsibility? Yes, but it's also yours as a father. If you want to try and skip out on that responsibility, then just be prepared to suffer the consequences of the law. You decided to have sex. As an adult, you should realize that sex, even protected sex, still has a chance of impregnating her. Don't shirk your responsibility on to her for a choice YOU also made.

[aceleon]

i made the coice for sex and made it very very obvious that i don't want a kid by using protection.
if you keep the inseminated egg you are forcing me for something i made it clear from the start i don't want how is this not slavery? i made the choice for sex not the kid, it was your own selfishness that brought it, i don't own you anything since i TOOK RESPONSİBİLİTY AND TRİED FOR İTTO NOT HAPPEN.
the rest is your responsibility because YOU CHOOSED İT NOT ME.
there is no owning something i didn't choose and this is not being an adult this is being forced into submission of your rights and your law means ABSOLUTLY NOTHİNG, it is human made nonsense.
sorry not sorry but you sound like a sociopath, you are basically saying i made a choice of allowing some trouble source to occur and you are responsible for it even though you took every pre-cautions possible for it to not happen because you don't want this but neverthless i am FORCİNG you to deal with it for something İ DECİDED
i choosed the sex not the kid, i worked for it to not happen
sorry not sorry again but after i used that lousy piece of rubber everything that happens is your shit to bother with not mine.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Sex can result in pregnancy. Most tweens and teens know this, so a grown adult definitely should.

It's not slavery to have adult responsibilities. Are you calling needing a job to pay your bills as slavery too? If so, you need to take a step back and reevaluate your life at this point.

I guarantee if you had been born a woman and were the one that had to face that decision, you'd feel very different than your cavalier attitude now.

[Chthou95]

@bddddd Why doesn't that moral argument stand for the women who decide to abort their responsibility?

[MrChinaski]

@Chthou95 I have never suggested that the mother doesn't share responsibility for the baby, financially and otherwise. Nor has anyone else in the thread.

[Chthou95]

@bddddd But she can terminate that life and avoid all responsibility. But yet if a man doesn't want the responsibility if she keeps it, he has to be a part of that child's life or pay child support

[MrChinaski]

@Chthou95 We clearly have no common sense of morality that would form a basis for a discussion.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

It would avoid all responsibility for both parties and if she does keep it then both are responsible. What's so hard to understand that? Once men can carry kids through artificial means, then they can decide if they want to keep kids or not.

[Chthou95]

@bddddd I just want consistency. This moral argument goes right out the window when it comes to the responsibility of women

[Chthou95]

And my argument is that he should have a say to opt out if she chooses to keep it. You have the right to terminate that life, i should have the right to abandon it if you keep it

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Nope. Not how it works. Finacial obligation doesn't end with her if she decides to keep it so it shouldn't with him. Besides, you'd have guys just racing to knock up women just to then decline financial responsibility and put a further strain on government assistance.

[Chthou95]

The man doesn't get any say though. He's obligated to pay even if he doesn't want the child. Where's the equality?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

He gets a say before sex occurs. He doesn't have to have sex with her.

[Chthou95]

That same thing applies to the woman. But that question still stands

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

She has the added burden of carrying the child + financial. He just has financial. That's why women get a say and men get suggestions as to what women should do, but not a say in what occurs outside of the initial sex act. Don't like it? Don't have sex then.

[Chthou95]

Yeah but if she decides to keep it, he should have the option to opt out. I thought feminsts are for equality

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

We are, but equality isn't "i don't have to pay if she keeps the baby". That would be you shirking your responsibility. Equality is having an equal say in whether or not she keeps the baby or not. Not making the decision for her, but being able to voice your opinion.

Equality the other way is both choosing not to pay for the child.

[Chthou95]

But yet she can avoid responsibility and terminate the unborn kid. There's a double standard

[MrChinaski]

@Chthou95 It's not a double standard. You both produced a foetus; you are both equally responsible for it. Your goal appears to be to concoct a moral story for abandoning your own child. I will save you the time and worry: there isn't one.

[Chthou95]

@MrChinaski How are we both equally resposible if the man has no say in what happens?

[MrChinaski]

@Chthou95

You steal a candy bar. The candy bar made you happy. The police could pursue you, but decide it is not worthwhile. Therefore you are right to steal the candy bar.

You murder someone. You enjoy murdering them. You are fastidious. The police don't catch you. Therefore you are right to murder them

You have sex and produce a foetus. You enjoy sex. Your partner doesn't contract beforehand and you can run away. Therefore you were right to have sex.

This is your morality.

[Chthou95]

@MrChinaski That's not what im saying at all

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Yeah it is. You want the ability to ditch your child just because the girl you slept with decided to keep it. Those examples are exactly what your are saying.

[Chthou95]

Yes my money my choice. Men should have that right

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Well, guess you'll have to deal with the fact that you are wrong and that it isn't going to happen thr eay you want.

Anyway, I am done with this back and forth so I am ignoring any future responses. Good luck in your endeavor to be a cheapskate father.

[alice55]

if you don't want children don't have sex that's simple or protect yourself. Anyway in reality if aman don't want to pay child support he won"t do it in France it's very common for a man to not pay it if he don't wan to and he have no consequence for it even though he's legally obligated to do it also if he don't recognize the child as his own the woman need to ask a judge to force the man to take a dna test but she need proves and clues the judge is not gonna allow a dna test if not so it's very common for men to not be forced to pay child support if he don't want to.

[Light_beam]

good.. so abortion should be illegal and if you women don't want a child, don't have sex too..

[alice55]

@Light_beam Well I'm not in favor of abortion it's literally murdering an innocent child and I"m a virgin so I'm not getting any sex anyway xD

[Light_beam]

you are 29 years old and still a virgin? wow why?

[aceleon]

i'm moving to france thanks to you.

[Anonymous]

If she is paying for it, gets herself down there, and talked with medical professionals/God at her bed in private/whatever then why would it matter the guy’s say?

One can consent to the action of sexual pleasure however not consent to starting a family with a guy for not being ready for that kind of relationship then totally within her rights not to include you in the conversation. A lot of guys push women for sex and she might not be comfortable, so to then flip the script is weird.

Child support wouldn’t be paid, since there would be no child. Like, I don't know what the argument is.

Morals and ethics are two different things, your moral code might have you religiously subscribing into an idea however the law is ethics. Ethics might go against your moral code, but as it stands women have the say over their bodies in certain cases and child support costs must be paid by the guy in some cases too.

[Opinion Owner]

Majority of guys told you, “No” so clearly you are in the minority dude.

[Kelley1]

Unless there is a written agreement regarding custody and child support, and all agreements should be enforced by the courts, the default should be that the parent with custody should support the children.

[cherrytreeblossom]

other people should never under any circumstances have a say in what happens to your body full stop

the guy can talk to the woman and then they work it out some way, ideally. personally, i would always abort as soon as one party isn't in on sth this important. this could also be buying sth expensive like a car or house. if you dont like abortions, then learn to love contraception.

[Light_beam]

you are a minor.. you don't have a say in grown up issues

[cherrytreeblossom]

@Light_beam this "argument" wouldve resulted in an F if you had the same teacher as me, lol. good luck standing up for your rights with oratory skills like that, you'll be left in the dust by teenagers who've enjoyed some proper education rather than root beer, coca cola and yocan vapes in high school and will follow the rules people like me sign into law. better kiss my ass ahead of time

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I just can't imagine putting a baby in someone and because she didn't want an abortion I feel wronged that I have to contribute.

It's different if the woman leaves you or something that's a whole other convo but you're less than trash if you force the mother of your child to raise it alone. It makes me angry just thinking about it.

[CalmUntilAbused]

The question is unclear. I would go against abortion in general (except if the mother's life is under direct threat) and leaving child support be, only making sure it's not abused (a woman not using child support to support the children would lose custody of the children to the man).

If we agree to abortion, though... Yeah, we have to get rid of child support for the sake of equality. 😂

[red-lipstick-girl]

The mother has the final say regarding the unborn baby. If she chooses not to bring the baby into the world, there are likely many reasons for this, but if she has, the decision rests with both of you. Furthermore, if the father is divorced from the mother, he is obligated to pay child support.

[Vegasrunner]

@red-lipstick-girl The question is if the mother is allowed to make the decision to have the child why isn't the father allowed the decision whether he wants to financially support it or not?

[OneViewpoint]

No, those men who don't want to pay child support shouldn't have any part in sex. If you came in her pussy, you fucked yourself dude. Now man up for the rest of your life so the rest of us don't end up paying for the mistakes of stupid people.

[foxsquirrell]

You are stupid. For sure you have no chance as a lawyer. Bad luck if she does not agree to have an abortion. The child will still be yours you idiot. If you do not want to pay child support you have 2 options. Vasectomy, or abstinence. Otherwise the risk is your's.

[Snakeyes7]

I think child support is heavily abused and applied to people who don't deserve to be punished with it.

If you are going to have a no fault divorce, then you should leave with what you came with and not be a parasite to your former spouse.

[PeachyPie93]

Yeah.. but I thought if you signed over your parental rights you don't have to? My dad did that for my older brother and his mom and stepdad took care of him..

[msc545]

Yes, men have no reproductive rights whatsoever as it stands now. If men are forced to pay child support, then they should have a say in abortion.

[Avicenna]

While it is unfair when men are kept out a decision to abort a child they have fathered, it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that they be allowed to simply opt out of paying child support.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

If they sign away their parental rights, they don’t have to pay child support.

[Light_beam]

fair enough.. but bad for the child himself..

[AskNaomie]

@Light_beam dead beat dads are bead yes

[AskNaomie]

Bad*

[blackeagle007]

The abortion is a separate issue, I won’t go into that.

But everyone needs to take responsibility to prevent unwanted pregnancy. It can’t just fall on us, ladies you do as well.

[melssvdv]

What is this nonsense "her body, her choice"? Isn't about the infant's body we are talking about? What is wrong with modern women?

[blackeagle007]

@melssvdv all I know is roe vs wade is gone.

[MrChinaski]

Own your life, fellow traveller. Own your choices. Be a man. Not a coward.

[jahaims]

Don't put your penis in someone if you can't accept the responsibility. Only weak/broken people have casual sex in the first place.

[CuriousMufuxka]

Kind of a tricky one there whereas the goal is not to spawn but raise children with both parents around. Hopefully in the same home.

[FunkyMonkee]

Sounds fair to me!!

[Agape93]

I'm good with that.

[Vegasrunner]

That's what I said

[Chthou95]

Yes it's fair.