Yes he should If a woman decides she doesn't want a baby, she can abort it without the husband's permission. And yet, if the man doesn't want the child, he will be forced to pay child support, because, they say, it takes two people to make a baby. Which is true. And men shouldn't be allowed to abandon their responsibilities. However, the same is true for the woman. She shouldn't be allowed to abandon her responsibilities of caring for the human who is alive. It takes two to make a baby, and the man should have an equal say in whether or not the child is aborted because it is his child too. He can't force a woman to get an abortion, and she shouldn't force him to have his child aborted. For those who say that men should have no say, then I say that men shouldn't have to pay child support. If abortion is a woman's way out of her responsibility, then men should be allowed to simply leave, to get out of their responsibility. But I believe neither should be legal. Both parents are responsible for the human they created.
In light of the very real fact that a man’s involvement in the pregnancy may very well end (and often does) when the sex act is complete, his say in this particular matter will hold zero weight UNLESS the woman chooses to hold any value in his opinion. He may literally disappear while the woman is forced with the responsibility of physically, emotionally and financially carrying a pregnancy inside of her body. The “baby” is not a baby until it is viable outside of the mother’s body, until which point it is a fetus/embryo depending on length to term. A man’s role in a pregnancy may possibly consist of mere minutes. A woman’s role will always be monumentally more involved and carry vastly greater weight.
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Most Helpful Opinions
Anonymous
(18-24)
+1 y
I'm in the middle with this one. I'm pro-choice, but if a woman is planning an abortion I think it'd be the right thing for her to ask the man if he would want the baby. However, I don't think she should be forced to have a child and go through pregnancy solely because he says he wants to keep the baby, but that's just me. In the end I believe it should be her decision, but I think all women should take the man into account when deciding because that's just the right thing to do (unless the man is abusive, irresponsible, etc).
YES! And here's what it should be... "Please don't murder my child! I will love it and take care if it and support it and you! Please let my child live!"
Of course, 50/50. This is one thing that really upsets me, this mindset that some women have that just because she is carrying it, that it's HER choice and hers alone. To me, this is mostly irrelevant. It's about the child, not YOUR BODY! Yes it's to be considered don't get me wrong, but this seems to be ALL and the ONLY thing some women seem to consider. It's just as much his baby as it is yours!
Just like after you die, your organs can't be given to those who need them if you didn't agree to it while you were alive. Just like you don't have to give blood to your mother even if her life depended on it. This is called bodily autonomy. If you say the fetus matters more and should have the right to the woman's body, you're saying that 1. the woman should have less rights than a corpse and 2. the baby should have more rights than any other person alive.
I do. I hope you understand that with late term abortions the baby was wanted. Women aren't pregnant for that long and then just think nah nvm let's kill it. Late term abortions are done to prevent either or both the mother or baby from dying
Body autonomy argument is flawed. Pro-choicers draw the line somewhere. If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, then she owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed.
Abortion in itself should be illegal. If I married someone who got an abortion, I don't know if I could stay with her anymore. All I'd see would be a murderer of my flesh and blood, my child. I can't understand how people can be so cruel.
When did the life of an innocent baby become so worthless? Is a life not a life? A baby in the womb is just as important as out of the womb. You can even see videos of babes trying to evade needles and calipers out of pain during an abortion. It's horrid and cruel. It's evil.
can you really call it a miracle when it is actually just a regular event... I understand that there is pain involved with childbirth... but crippling a man financially without him having a say?
I wonder about whether or not he should be allowed to deny his parental rights and not have to pay, but he most certainly cannot decide what a woman does with her organs.
@vannanas I said I'm willing to hear a convincing argument. I can understand the fellas position, but once your child is born it's a far different situation. Is your body equitable to money?
no, but why should you "profit" on having a child? child support should be given to those who need it, and in relation to the financial status of the guy. not just a default thing
@vannanas Uh... I think you missed what I was saying.
If you have a child, and neglect it. You WILL be punished. The question is about whether or not a father can rescind his parental rights and payments before the child's birth.
Men can have an opinion but the woman has the final say.
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Anonymous
(30-35)
+1 y
I think the man should have a say but only to a certain extent because at the end of the day its the women who has to carry the child for 9 months and push it out her vagina... the man should have the right to say that he doesn't want the baby and say he wants it to be aborted. Then when the women makes her decison if she decides to keep it he should have no legal obligations to pay child support and be a perental figure to the child. As for if he wants to keep it and she wants it aborted i think its ultimatly the womens choice and yeah its sad for the guy and at that point i think the best way forward is for him to find a new partner, since they are at different places - he wants children, she doesn't.
Because the child is a part of you, breathing through you living off your nutrients. I am 100% not saying it means the child belongs more to the women but its a big responsiblity for the women to have to carry it inside their womb for 9 months especially if they have a reason for not wanting the child. Also the fact that pregnancy also has an impact on their bodies and also causes mood swings. It is understandable for the women to not want to go through this for a child they dont want to have.
What do you mean? Do you mean that if the man wants the baby he has the right to say she has to go though with the pregnancy? (Not being confrontational just curious)
Ahhh now i understand the issue. Im guessing you're pro-life (whereas i am pro-choice) and while i dont agree with your opinion i will respect it. Do you feel as though abortion is wrong in all cases?
lol I haven't met a pro-choicer who would be fine with me being against abortion. I am fine with abortions only when the mother's or the baby's life is at stake.
As for your comment about it being murder at this point it is just a bundle of cells who feel nothing and so i personally believe the lives and opinions of the parents (that will be changed massively if they bring a child into the world) should be taken into consideration. And while i dont like abortion i am pro-choice meaning i think they have the right to decide whether or not they have a child
I posted the second reply before seeing your comment... im perfectly fne with u being against abortion, its your opinion and you have every right to voice it (as long as you dont do it to harm others) And anyway im always interested in seeing other points of view on subjects. That way i know as much about the topic as possible and can understand why others disagree with me :-)
Body autonomy argument is flawed. Most abortion advocates draw the line somewhere, even if they differ on the precise temporal location. If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, and she owns her body during the entire pregnancy, then to forbid her to choose an abortion at any time during that pregnancy is to violate her bodily autonomy. A woman owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed. If she wishes to rid her body of the child, she can do so whenever, and however, she wants to IF bodily autonomy is an absolute right.
Yes she still owns her body after the line has been crossed but when that line is crossed it is no longer just a ball of cells that would be terminated and also in late term abortions (which i dont agree with) in most cases the child could just be removed via a c section at that point and so i see no reason to abort then.
In the uk you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks (unless there are extraordinary circumstances) and i think after that point it should no longer be allowed
Only a filthy slut would abort her own flesh and blood. Neither should have a say and rape is not an excuse.
If a woman raped a man, she stole his seed. She's birthing a baby on stolen seed that the man consented not to but yet, women are somehow special, the His body, His right rule doesn't seem fair to a woman.
A raped man has to be a father against his will if the woman keeps the baby.
Ah. The old “stealing his special seed” trick. Quite an uncontrollable epidemic that there are virtually no reports of. This argument is outrageous and laughable.
if he is going to help raise the baby, YES! If he is not going to help raise the baby and it is going to be the woman's full job to make enough money and time and effort to raise the baby, THEN NO! Because seriously, it's like if you started a BUSINESS and wanted your partner to DO ALL THE WORK, then she can have the right to say YES OR NO. That's just my honest opinion.
If we go down the path of choice, the man should have the choice of opting out of fatherhood as does the mother with abortion, infact the mother can put the baby up for adoption. She has two ways of escaping responsibility. Abortion and putting it up for adoption.
Men should be able to opt out of child support in the period where abortion is allowed, after that, both the woman and the man have to come to an agreement whether or not the baby should be put up for adoption if they both do not want it.
But personally, i'd rather abortion not be used as birth control.
@No1butme And women's is not to be on birth control or another form of contraception? Or are you trying to say women cannot be responsible for their own actions?
Not at all.. some women want to be pregnant and will do and sleep around until she gets what she wants.. as a mum of 3 boys I have always told them that if they sleep with a girl and she falls pregnant then it's there responsibility to do the right thing! If they do not want to be a dad then they have to protect themselves by covering up, even of she says she on bc (she could lie) it's there responsibility to do what they can to prevent any unwanted pregnancy or heart breaking choice to adopt
Not at all! I dislike women that feel they want to trap/force a guy to become a dad. A child is a gift not a toy and should be wanted by both so they can love and raise that blessing!
There is a difference in the removal of responsibility between an abortion and a man walking away from his child. If a woman aborts the baby she removes responsibility, financial and otherwise, from both parents. If a man walks away from his child he leaves the mother burdened with all of the responsibility.
The mother has to carry the baby in her body, it uses her resources and she takes all of the physical toll. If a baby could be developed externally to the mother then it would be simple to suggest that she could not seek termination without the father's approval. Unfortunately a baby cannot be developed externally to the mother and hence you would be making demands of her body. Hence it's not so clear cut. Even more so if the pregnancy is a particularly difficult one.
Hopefully science might come up with a solution for this one day. Perhaps the pregnancy can be transferred to the father.
Body autonomy argument is flawed. Pro-choicers draw the line somewhere. If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, then she owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed.
@proteingal So you are advocating equal rights and responsibilities but not as far as carrying the baby? Please don't undermine your own arguments now, that would be embarrassing.
@proteingal just because no one is to blame, doesn't mean the fact should be ignored. Just because inequality was created by nature, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
@jacquesvol late-term abortions are done when women saved enough money for abortion or when they made their final decision. Are you against late-term abortions (when the fetus is viable)?
The body autonomy argument isn't flawed if you take the view that there is indeed a line where the fetus is and isn't viable, which is what the law currently supports anyway. We're discussing existing abortion laws and what you believe is wrong with them. Under the existing laws the woman is only able to terminate up to a given point and that is the period which I am addressing. Body autonomy within the window where abortion is legal is a perfectly valid argument, because you are not talking about terminating a viable life. Therefore you can say that the mother is the priority because her body is taking all the risks and the burden. Once the child becomes viable she is now the host to a viable life in its own right and the argument becomes a different one.
Body autonomy is absolute until the point at which the autonomy of another body becomes a factor, then the arguments change. That is only common sense. If we are having a discussion about when that occurs then it is quite different from a discussion about whether a father should be able to force continued pregnancy on a woman before a fetus is viable.
No, I think you just failed to understand. It is absolute for you, it is absolute for others. When your rights come into conflict with the rights of another living human being then there has to be observance of the rights of both. So, your body autonomy remains absolute but it no longer is the trump card when it compromise the autonomy of someone else. When a fetus becomes viable you now have two bodies to consider and their respective autonomy.
You are arguing over a moot point. We are talking about whether the female's rights to her body are enough to justify her right to abort while a fetus is not considered viable. Whether or not those rights over her body are absolute is irrelevant. It's only relevant that her rights are in force for as long as they are not overruling the rights of a viable child. Try and stick to the issue.
@proteingal You seem to be having trouble sticking to the point, which usually means that your point is not very solid. That's okay if it's the case, but if you wish to discuss the actual issue we can move forward.
When the woman aborts, the responsibility of raising a child is over for both. Same when the man forces the woman to abort. Now, when the guy refuses to pay child support the only one who skips their responsibility is him. I think there should be better sex education so that people dont end up being in this situation without really wanting it, to begin with.
Feminists don't think that men should have a say in the abortion debate... Until a man agrees with them! If a man cannot have a say when it comes to abortion, then only endangered species should have a say in how to preserve nature...
@maiave The only voice that should be a priority is the one arguing based on facts, logic and reason, regardless of whether that is a male voice or a female voice.
I think men should decide health issues and problems regarding men, same for women. Also - you can’t say someone is right or wrong of their opinion, so how would you be able to tell?
@maiave "I don't support abortion because Muh God!" = Not an argument based on logic and reason. "I don't support abortion because there are cases where parents decided to have an abortion because they don't want a daughter" = An argument based on logic. And I'm not saying I agree with that argument (since the risk of that happening in the west is extremely low) but it's still VERY different from the first example. Not all opinions are equal, and not all arguments are equal. An argument with facts backing it up will always be superior compared to an argument based on feelings. Your gender doesn't determine whether or not you are right, your argument does.
Under current law in the US men have zero reproductive rights because the laws are incredibly outdated, as are most women's mentality.
As QA rightly pointed out, women have the right to opt out of their responsibilities. Men should have the same right.
Women should (and do) have a right to abort, and men should (but DON'T) have a right to financially abort.
In discussions like this one, there are always women who will say something like "if he didn't want the responsibility of a child he shouldn't have had sex without a condom". And yet those same idiots support a woman's right to abort. Do I really need to point out the hypocrisy and stupidity of that statement?
@MrMilti At the moment of legal abortion there's NO baby, NO child. Just a pea or bean sized blob of cells without conscience or ability to feel: zygote or fetus. That's FACT. Giving rights to a fetus or a zygote is just religious folly.
@jacquesvol You just drew the line when the abortion is moral and then it's not. lol. If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, then she owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed.
If the man's chooses not to cover up then he has already decided he wants to become a parent... once she becomes pregnant it's her body her life her choice! Regardless to the contraceptive implant/pill/coil these are not 100%
The responsibility of protected sex falls upon both of them, whether it's pills or condoms. She has just as much decided to become a parent if they decide to have sex without covering up.
No they can't there's a deadline point tho I personally don't agree with them...
Yes agreed if both want to become a parent but if it's one sided (normally the women) then it's up to the guy not to impregnate her if he does not want this
Yes, but I'm talking about stupidity, which teenagers have a lot of. They were irresponsible and decided to have unprotected sex because they didn't think of the consequences. It wasn't one-sided, because none of them wanted to have a kid.
If sex education taught them nothing nor did there parents then yes definitely foolish and stupid! A termination may just be a pill (depending on how far gone) but this shouldn't be used as bc as it can effect women's chances later in life to convince when she's ready!
Exactly. And there are always homosexual couples who are looking to adopt a baby. Abortion should not be the first option, but when it threatens the health of either the woman, then definitely. And I'm saying this as someone who is pro-choices, but I am also pro-responsibility. You cannot have individual freedom without individual responsibility.
Adoption is always there and greatly appreciated by the adoptive.. tho if a young couple feel this is an option they would choose, It's far more of a heart breaking choice to make! It's a life and to prevent these ever so difficult choices just cover up... I couldn't do either
I've heard a lot of dumb excuses for not wearing a condom. The worst one had to be from my friend: "I haven't found any condoms that fit." "Oh, shut the fuck up, we've been in gym class together, your girl would have a harder time finding a condom that fits!"
I'd say yes. I think that someone who's not ready to be a parent yet shouldn't get forced to, no matter if he's male or female. If the woman does want to keep it and the man does not, then he shouldn't be forced to pay alimony - but he would also lose any right to see the child.
I think that a man can't force a woman to have an abortion or not have an abortion. BUT, I think that the man should have a legal right to opt out of child support. Because how many times has the husband/boyfriend told the girlfriend/wife that he doesn't want the kid, and she keeps it anyways because she wants to and put him on child support for 18 years for HER choice? That's BS. If she wants to keep the baby, then she can pay for it herself, just like how she chose to keep the baby by herself.
It depends. If say, the father is known, he's willing to support child, than yes. But it would have to be 100% willing to support and take full custody if necessary. But more often than not, the father wants the woman to have an abortion. Sometimes when she doesn't want to. Or has no idea he got a girl pregnant, nor cares.
It should be a mutual decision if the man is present. It takes two to make a baby so why wouldn't the man have a say... isn't the fight we are talking about? Equality? If we want to be equal, you can't pick and choose what issues are equal and what's not. I will say this, if the man chooses to not be apart of the woman's life he does forfeit the right, but I do think if you are truly fighting for equality between men and women, this is one that needs to be addressed and fixed.
I agree the government is brutal towards guys about this why make GUYS pay for child support when she can leave with no problems at all and what if the baby was a accident or the girl didn’t tell the guy she wasn’t on bc and let him cum inside 😡 girls that manipulate men into paying money for the kid they didn’t want is bullshit
@jacquesvol I don’t fuck without a condom and her on birth control and I make sure she takes the pill and I buy the condoms so she can’t poke no holes in them
@maiave I'm against abortion so in my opinion, the right thing to do would be to keep it. Abortion is pretty much killing a baby and killing is not a nice thing to do. I think that in the case you are suggesting you still have to find some kind of agreement, you'd have to see why the man doesn't want it... if its for economical reasons and he legit can't pay for a single thing and you neither, you might want to give the baby in adoption or something.
They should have a say, yes, but it shouldn’t be their decision alone. The ultimate decision maker ought to be the one whose body will get wrecked by pregnancy and childbirth.
Yes, actually men have full control of abortion by choosing the woman they have sex with in the first place. I would never have sex with a woman that refers to a growing child to a 'klumpf of cells'. They can go abort some other guys kids but not mine.
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Anonymous
(18-24)
+1 y
The burden of pregnancy was not equally distributed between a man and woman by nature.
More burden and responsibility of creating a child fell onto the woman.
That means she gets more rights when it comes to whether or not she will go through with the pregnancy
The descison should be clear before getting pregnant ever happens NOT after. Ultimately it would be the girls descision. I find it sad you consider an unborn child "property"
it depends on the situation. if you plan to be parents together then yes absolutely. but if it was a one night stand and the guy won't be involved at all, then no
Of course they should have say, after all it's his baby too. If the woman doesn't wan't to take care of it, at least give the father a chance too if that's what he really want's to do.
For a man to have an equal say, he needs to have an equal risk, If he wants a baby that bad, let him carry it himself. Or find a woman who is willing to bear him children.
It would be nice for that to happen but at the end of the day, it is her body. And, depending on the circumstances, she would probably ultimately be the only one caring for the child. Not always, but sometimes.
Its the woman's body so I don't think the man should have the right to have her grow anything in it she doesn't want to for nine months. But if he doesn't want to raise the child he should have some say in abortion I think. I mean I guess u could argue that still involves her body... but only for like a day lol.
Also, what if he is an abusive bully. If she gets pregnant and flhe has a say on her keeping it then she has it, she'll be tied to him for life through the child.
Nope, depends on the abuser. Plenty of abusive men love kids. And love even more anything that will keep you subservient. Eg: not being able to leave him because u have no money because u can work as he insisted u stay home and raise the child.
If you dont want to deal with pregnancy, thats your choice, no man will argue about that. It is a crazy long time with an enormous physical impact on your body.
But as I said, it is a child and if you were willing to bring it into life and the father is willing to raise it on his own, without the mother, he should be able to do that.
There are so many Single-Mums, why can't there be equally many Single-Dads?
Of course, the biological mother should then also have to pay childsupport. (please dont hate on me for stating that)
@MrMilti I agree. It would be nice if the girl chose to have it even if she didn't want it if he was willing to raise it. But the thing is, if he changed his mind, she would be the one 'stuck' with a child she hadn't wanted so... would be silly to take his word on it.
They should be able to say what they think is right and have a (small) say in the matter but in the end it comes down to the woman as she will be carrying this child for nine months.
If she decided to keep the child, then he would be responsible for financially, so he should have a say , to some degree.. if he doesn't have a say, then he should be relieved of his parental rights and financial responsibility at his choosing.
Nope. I don't care what he wants. He doesn't have to possibly live with pushing a 10lb watermelon through his crotch, I do. You can say all you want, but it's going to happen.
I agree except or the last sentence.. I don't support abortions, but I feel in some situations it may be necessary. And yes! the man should have a say in the matter if he wants her to go through with the pregnancy.
Yes since half that baby is theirs but it won't matter much anyways if the women doesn't take it into account because at the end of the day its their decision
If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, then she owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed.
If she wants to. Who the hell cares? No one is in any place to be offended over it. Its only her fetus, its only her decision, its only her body. I don't care because it's not my place to act like a "God sent saint" and cry over someone making the best decision for themselves. Personally I wouldn't abort. Doesn't mean others shouldn't either.
Its not "murder". But if you want to play that, than how about this... Would you rather a woman abort her pregnancy or raise a baby she didn't want, can't afford and isn't ready for? Maybe she put it for adoption, foster care or any other give away program. The child will have to go their whole life knowing mommy didn't want to keep him because she couldn't do it and now he's getting passed along from home to home. Abortion is a good option. I don't agree with people having unprotected sex knowing they'll get pregnant but not caring because abortion is a option. But people who really didn't mean to, was r*ped, too young, not enough $ and know they're unable to raise a baby and give it a good quality of life, should be free to do it without disgusting, judgmental people calling them "murderers". It's hard enough as is and while they feel relieved, Im sure theyre not thrilled over having to do it.
Also, i know that its considered a human at like 6mos or something. Most places won't let you abort anything after a certain period of time. So the abortion 9/10 times happens while the baby is a blob of cells.
No if a woman allows a guy to dip his stick without cover then she knows exactly what she's doing! He should know that once she is pregnant his has no choice to keep abort or adopt! Not his body but hers so her choice what she does...
@No1butme But this is where you are wrong because women DO choose constantly. Most abortions are because of females poor decisions, not rape or other problems.
When a baker puts a cake in the oven, the oven doesn't instantly get ownership of the cake. Women want 100% of the choice not because of the "my body, my choice" scapegoat, they simply want to dictate males choice. If when women went to get abortions the law required the father to be asked and if he said he wanted the baby, they would take the embryo out of the female and put it in an artificial womb to be incubated for him, women would still protest that they don't want the child being born if they don't want it. Women use their 100% parental rights as weapons against men.
Not all women are or think the same, and no I very much doubt it's because she wants to 1 up or something.. for me (Not that I'd ever abort) most men "not all" give the promise to help and be there regardless if they together or not but 8/10 do not do what they say and this will be leaving her to cope alone. I've never heard that law I will have to look that up, a woman that falls pregnant and choosing to keep it is very risky! Each pregnancy carries a risk and for us to take that risk on our unborn and self should be worshipped by the farther, we are giving something so special called life! But parenthood is daunting and definitely a decision for matured adults. These kids that think its all roses or they can solve it by abortion is wrong. From the minute that baby's heart starts beating it's a life not a game or to dictate a man's say! A child is life changing
@No1butme You need to learn the difference between universal and general statements.
Also, We live in 2018... healthy western women do NOT die in childbirth the way they did centuries ago. In 2010 there were 3,978,497 births and 700 deaths. That is 0.02% death rate during birth. Which is NOT an epidemic, especially when you factor in home births, hidden teen births, etc. Which could have been saved if done properly.
Also, women who have had more than one abortion have accounted for 45% of all abortions, which means women are using it as a means of birth control. Which is sick! And the majority of abortions are done by women in their 20's.
<0.5% Victim of rape 3% Fetal health problems 4% Physical health problems 4% Would interfere with education or career 7% Not mature enough to raise a child 8% Don't want to be a single mother 19% Done having children 23% Can't afford a baby 25% Not ready for a child
Women need to be held responsible for their choices BEFORE not after sex.
@No1butme I think I have proven I have done research unlike you who are simply stating your personal experience as a universal truth.
CASE IN POINT: 0.02% death rate during birth.
Also, women who have had more than one abortion have accounted for 45% of all abortions, which means women are using it as a means of birth control. Which is sick! And the majority of abortions are done by women in their 20's.
<0.5% Victim of rape 3% Fetal health problems 4% Physical health problems 4% Would interfere with education or career 7% Not mature enough to raise a child 8% Don't want to be a single mother 19% Done having children 23% Can't afford a baby 25% Not ready for a child
Body autonomy argument is flawed. Pro-choicers draw the line somewhere. If the justification for abortion is that a woman owns her body, then she owns her body during the entire pregnancy. She does not cease to own her body after her baby reaches viability, turns seventh months old, or whatever line one wishes to draw. She owns her body once that line has been crossed, just as she did before that line was crossed.
Agaim Aghfanistan? I said I'm not from there. So coutries that believe the unborn is a human being right after it comes out of the vagina are civilized? And Americans wonder why others think they are dumb...
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