Why are Eastern martial arts fought more brutally than those in the West?

[Apinya97]

Western martial arts tend to be quite strict with the protective gear that’s required (head and groin guards etc) and how strikes are often limited to above the belt.

Yet some Eastern martial arts, such as some Thai boxing classes and combat sambo, often restrict the use of head and groin guards, and allow full contact strikes anywhere above or below the belt.

I have even Googled this beyond my own experience and found many examples of this to be true.

Is it the case that Eastern martial arts are more focused on practicing a ‘real life’ kind of training experience, whereas Western martial arts are more concerned about style and technique? Which is the better way do you feel? Thank you.

[Datboi65]

Depends on the martial art. I have a black belt in Shotokan Karate, and what we did was mostly touch fights. If you have seen the fighting tournaments in Karate, you have 4 referees with 2 flags (blue and red) in each corner of the stage, and the fight itself is based on points with no real hits. I didn't think it was serious enough, and I quit because I didn't like it.

There are some martial arts that are more practical like BJJ or Muai Thai, but I find out that most of them are just for show and the controlled environment makes it seem like it works, but in real life a lot of what you learn is useless.

Western martial arts on the other hand are a lot more practical. Boxing, kickboxing and wrestling is far better at neutralizing a threat than Taekwondo. The reason behind the effectiveness is endless sparring with varied levels of intensity, which allows you to develop your skills further. The lack of a controlled environment gives more room for adaptability, and I also like the fact that there's no hierarchical system like belts to keep everyone humble. The new guy who started learning how to box 2 months ago can KO a dude who's been boxing for the last 3 years, so it can bring you back to reality a lot faster to never underestimate anyone. Lastly, head movement and footwork are prioritized over blocks. In Karate I was taught 6 different blocks, but the problem with that is the lack of practicality. Why block when you can move out of harm's way?

Now if you ask me what the most effective way of fighting is, without a doubt I would say it's Muai Thai. What makes this style unique from all the other eastern fighting styles is the lack of standardization. You don't have the "kata" as in Karate and you don't have to memorize a billion different kicks like in taekwondo. You mainly use your elbows, knees and kicks but also your hands. It's called the 8 limb sport for a reason. Leg kicks are used frequently, and these can destabilize someone effectively because the opponent cannot fight if they can't stand. They use the same kick for the most part, which is the side kick. Bruce Lee once said "I'm not afraid of the man who has practiced 10000 different kicks, I'm afraid of the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times". Practice makes perfect.

[s35bonanza]

I think you will enjoy the raw reality of a kick boxing match. The blows are real and land hard, you learn fast. Throw forms to the wind it’s real life action, not contrived. If you really want an adrenaline rush find a very skilled strong and quick well built female kickboxer and take her on cupless!!! It will be a whole new world of exciting and fun for both of you!! It won’t be as easy as some of the guys on here think it will be!!

[Datboi65]

@s35bonanza Kickboxing is more practical than boxing, and Muai Thai is the best. However, I have to say I have a bit of a bias towards traditional boxing, just because of my love for that sport and all the iconic fights I have seen. I plan on joining a boxing gym in the near future (can't do it now because of med school :/).

Fighting a female kickboxer isn't something I'm interested in. I respect her dedication to the sport and her skills, but I don't believe there's any point in me doing that to try and prove anything. I would rather fight people my size and weight class and skill level so I can learn faster, because I do plan on doing this for as long as I can. No plans of going pro or amateur, but I have immense love for the sport and I wanna continue the tradition in my household so that hopefully my future kids follow through as well.

[s35bonanza]

Some gyms allow more than others depending on their philosophy and approach to liability. At the gym where I spar we have a good mix of guys and girls of all different abilities and experience levels. The official gym policy is that groin protection is optional at the discretion of each fighter, and hits to the groin are officially “not allowed”, this is the agreement we sign, however the tradition at our gym has been that guys never wear cups when sparring with girls. It is considered weak and disrespectful to your female opponent to hide behind artificial protection. There is no penalty or point deduct for contact with the groin, you are expected to defend your whole body with your own reflexes and quickness, and not rely on a cup or rules to keep vulnerable targets un-naturally protected. If you cannot continue the fight for any reason, including taking a kick to the balls, you lose!! Guys are fine with this rule as they learn to defend really well while developing faster reflexes and a healthy respect for their female opponents! We also don’t want to deprive our female competitors of one of the most satisfying and thrilling ways to defeat a bigger stronger male opponent! Guys take some pretty hard nut shots but there has never been any serious or permanent injuries. Testicles are very sensitive, but much more durable than that sensitivity leads you to believe, you aren’t going to be made sterile from a few hard nut shots, it takes a lot more than that. Our approach to the rules makes it thrilling for both competitors, very even and fair competition, and very entertaining to watch!!!

[Apinya97]

The martial art I practice is similar, groin guards are optional for same sex matches, but forbidden for mixed fights. Groin strikes are always allowed though, as are many other kind of strikes. I agree that hiding behind protection is kind of disrespectful, and to me cowardly, given all the physical advantages guys have. We forbid groin guards to make it a more fair and ‘real life’ kind of fight. Yes, the onus is on the opponent to defend themselves, rather than relying on protection and rules. Yeah, it works, I agree, but it’s rare for martial arts to practice this way.

[jbasch]

What kind of martial art is this? I can't imagine groin strikes being permitted in mixed fights. Do guys ever have a chance in these lmao

[Wellebelle]

I honestly just feel like if there was no rules or protection in fighting then anyone that competes would go blind, have hair patches pulled out, no teeth and there nutsack would probably just be a bag of pulp. So I'm not sure how many people would decide to play it as just a sport or hobby if that were the case lol.

[Apinya97]

Well strikes to the head are mostly punches and kicks, and competitors are trained to keep their guard (hands/arms) up to protect their head, so head injuries are often limited. It is true that in girl vs guy matches groin guards are forbidden, so girls often win these matches with full contact run up kicks straight up into the guy’s balls, which is obviously an instant win for the girl, and a devastatingly painful loss for the guy. Before being allowed to spar and compete though, all competitors must agree and sign up to the rules. I understand that only very few martial arts practice like this though.

[Wellebelle]

Um is there an age limit to this place?

[Apinya97]

There is an adult and youth class, but the youth class has greater restrictions and rules. There is no age limit to attend the adult class.

[Wellebelle]

Surely the youth class doesn't allow full force hits to each other's faces and balls with no protection? Even if they sign something they can't fully understand the damage that can cause in the long run at that age? Like they could cause brain damage and the boys could literally go infertile?

[Apinya97]

You’re right, the youth class allows greater protection and doesn’t encourage full force strikes. Only the adult class forbids groin protection and allows full force kicks to the groin.

[Wellebelle]

So it's only the adults that get brain damage and the adult men that get there nuts kicked in half? Lol

[Apinya97]

Yeah 😂 like I say a lot of focus goes into keeping your hands/arms high to protect your head. Grappling gloves are worn too, kind of like mini boxing gloves. Obviously for girls the use of groin strikes against guys is very effective, but for all the times I’ve kicked guys or seen guys take brutal kicks to their balls, to my knowledge none have resulted in permanent damage. An awesome way to win a fight against a guy though! 😂

[s35bonanza]

@ Wellebelle It is not like there are no rules, all the same rules against eye poking, hair pulling, etc.., still exist it’s just a change in the rules to allow groin strikes and not allow artificial protection of what is should be a legitimate target. If you read my reply to @wonderboy you will see the logic and rationale behind this philosophy. It seems counterintuitive but not allowing cups or any form of groin protection and allowing full contact groin strikes also works to the advantage of the male competitor as well as being a great leveler of the playing field for the female fighter! I’ve seen and been a great many very competitive male/female fights with these rules and there has never been any catastrophic injuries or permanent damage done. I have experienced some pretty devastating well placed nut shots that left me on the mat in absolute agony for 15 to 20 minutes before I could even get up, then I felt like I was going to throw up and was sore for a few days, but never any lasting or permanent damage. Testicles are tougher than you think and they heal very well and fast!!! It’s all part of learning and getting better as a fighter!!

[jbasch]

As a dude, I definitely would not compete in martial arts that permitted groin strikes lmao

[laraWM]

Maybe because we tend to pratice it more as a hobby than a street fight

I think people wouldn't want to get hurt for that

[Apinya97]

Yeah, I think it is more of a hobby in the West 👍 I understand people might not want to get hurt too badly for that, but if you’re practicing for real life situations, you might be more willing to take that risk. Personal preference I guess.

[laraWM]

Yes I think there are still some crazy sports like ultimate fighting with less rules and people seem happy to get hurt 😂

[Apinya97]

I guess if you want to practice for real those are the risks you have to take! 🫣

[laraWM]

Yes and to be honest I thought it was more a guy thing, show who's stronger 😂

[Apinya97]

Guys are generally stronger, yes, but I think when it comes to combat sports if a girl is fast and technically good, that can outweigh the guy’s strength to his demise! 😂

[laraWM]

Definitely, I mean I thought you find more guys in more brutal sports

[Apinya97]

Yeah, you do, but some girls like the rough stuff too! 😂

[laraWM]

Yeah I hope they can avoid bad injuries

[Apinya97]

Really bad injuries are quite rare, I mean they can happen because of the nature of the sport, but still, they don’t happen every class.

[laraWM]

Good to read 🙂

[TheorionMage]

Eastern martial arts are rooted in unarmed survival and incapacitating physiological damage; they rely on practiced 'muscle memory' Kata forms. Their pragmatism for injury... attaches genuine concern for injurious long-term consequences, NOT 'sport' ... as its primary purpose.

As a retired Veteran and L. E. officer, we were taught judo and Akkido and schooled in LETHAL attacks and counter-moves as a 'last resort'; ... temple strikes, larynx crushing, bone breaking and dislocation. Think Israeli Crav Maga or Russian Systema.

This ISN'T you and your kid brother or friend screwing around as to whom is 'better' for bragging rights.. At this level, IF you survive, I may not 'win' BUT... your body WILL remember ME "every time it rains" . for the rest of your days~
Predatory sharks don't WANT to hurt you, ... they want to EAT you while taking as little damage to themselves as possible.
You don't INITIATE combat, you END it as decisively and quickly as circumstances permit! In 1982, the 33rd BRC of the Vermont police academy's resource manual read: "Shoot to 'stop' '" Avoid 'collateral damage'. DEAD is stopped~

[jshm2]

They aren't. Rankings are different between the two

In the West it's more about weight and division. Whereas in the East it's more about experience and skill level.

It's why there is such a gulf between martial arts in the two.

A blackbelt belt in the West would probably not even be a green or yellow in the East. But at world events they use Western rankings, hence leave Eastern competitors at a disadvantage.

As for full contact. You're confusing amateur with professional.

[slay_girl]

I feel the eastern martial arts are much better. I prefer it be more raw and brutal. Guess some guys just don’t have enough balls to fight raw and brutal so they need to protect it lol.

[Apinya97]

Agreed! It’s nice to find someone, especially a girl, who actually agrees with me. I’m glad that some Eastern martial arts classes like the one I attend do practice that way without groin protection against girls, because it really acts as a great leveller sparring and competing that way.

[slay_girl]

Ahh is that so? So how do you fare against guys? And do you actually aim under the belt?

[Apinya97]

Yes, combat sambo allows groin strikes, you can Google this, although I share a link on my profile because no one ever believes me. Groin protection is optional when sparring the same gender, but forbidden in mixed fights because it’s seen as an advantage to the girls not wearing them. I fare well against the guys because competitors are matched up fairly to make it a competitive fight. If the opportunity presents itself I’ll target a full contact front kick to the groin, yes, because it’s incredibly effective.

[slay_girl]

I assume it’s a quick TKO at that point? Haha!

[Apinya97]

A full contact kick to the groin is considered a knockout blow, yes, pretty much as brutal as they come for a guy! 😂

[slay_girl]

Oh I know. Quite an equaliser.

[Apinya97]

You sound very confident in saying that. How exactly do you know?

[jbasch]

I can speak from unfortunate experience that a kick to the balls is an instant TKO lmao

[slay_girl]

@Apinya97 When I kicked this guy in the balls, he freaked out and was too busy trying to comfort himself than paying attention on me.

[Karate_Guy]

@slay_girl Which martial art (s) do you do?

[Googlemyahoo]

Probably has to do with liability. People in the west tend to sue for anything. Like there’s people who sued McDonalds because they spilled their hot coffee on themselves.

I could see someone suing for being kicked in their kickboxing class. My son didn’t like it because they organized by weight. He was only 13 and adult size & paired him likewise. I just said it will make you stronger fighting adults.

[Apinya97]

That’s a fair point. In the East if your opponent kicks to your groin, for example, it is your responsibility to protect yourself, whereas in the West you are guaranteed that protection through rules and protection. I mean groin protection is largely optional and only forbidden for girl vs guy matches, but the liability thing explains a lot about the rules and how martial arts are practiced in the West, yes.

[W0nderb0y]

I do tae kwon and hits below the belt are definitely not allowed. Sometimes I get hit there during sparring anyways especially if it’s a girl I’m sparring with, but they always say it’s an accident so the instructor doesn’t treat it as a big deal. Personal I don’t think it’s fair because some girls “accidentally” hit there a little too much. I don’t know how the east is but I would assume that in the past martial arts were more dangerous and used for actual warrior. The east has stuck to tradition were as the west has moved forward. Personally I’m glad I get to were a groin protector, the times that I didn’t end pretty badly

[s35bonanza]

@wonderboy if you want to try an interesting experiment, the next time you are sparring a girl, remove your cup and tell her “I’m not wearing a cup and I will allow groin strikes, if you can land them” I think you will be amazed at how much better you will defend and how much more predictable of a fighter she will be making it way easier for you to get ahead of her and put her on the defensive. I know it is counter intuitive to think you are better off no cup and letting her try for a legal groin strike but it is true!! When you are wearing the cup, and the times you were kicked and not wearing it, you were not expecting to be hit there and you thought you had the protection of the cup and the rules. When she “accidentally” hit you there, and we all know, yes girls will do this all the time, she is using the element of surprise and the unexpected against your psyche. You subconsciously don’t want to believe she will actually do this, snd as a second layer you know you can rely on your protection. Both lull you into a false sense of security and get you hurt when she lands a groin strike. By taking off the cup and allowing her the possibility of a legal groin strike, you are now fighting like you constantly expect it, and she becomes one dimensional, always trying to land that winning kick. This makes her more readable and easier to defeat!!! I hope you have the courage to try!!!

[jbasch]

Yes, I did Taekwondo, and groin kicks were not allowed. My sister did Krav Maga and it was definitely encouraged though. So I don't know

[Brando10222]

Eastern wants to give and teach a real life experience (best way to learn something). Western knows those things won't be much needed so focuses more on safety.

If you've learned it eastern style it will be really helpful when it comes to your safety in real life.

[Apinya97]

That’s exactly how I feel. I love practicing martial arts Eastern style. Learning and competing against both girls and guys, without relying on any protection, and striking full contact both above and below the belt, really prepares you for ‘real life’ situations should you ever need it.

[Brando10222]

Yes, true!

[Guardian45]

I lived in Japan for 3 years. While there I did participate in Kendo & Iaido. From what I experienced martial arts are real combat training, but they have a much stronger philosophic components than in the West. They are strict, and heavily disciplined. My impression was that additional "protective gear" was unnecessary!

[Apinya97]

They are 👍 and more emphasis is placed upon being responsible for defending yourself rather than relying on protective gear and rules that forbid certain strikes.

[Phoenix98]

Tradition and because it works.

Really the only kind of gear I wear is a cup and fingerless MMA sparring gloves so I can still grab on to people, do throws, locks, etc.

I do mainly eastern martial arts but I do train in a few western ones to.

[jbasch]

Eastern martial arts don't have guards for head+groin? I definitely would not participate in any martial arts that did not have groin protection lol

[Apinya97]

Some Thai boxing allows groin strikes and combat sambo does. Groin protection is optional in same gender matches in my CS class, but banned for mixed fights. Guys have every chance because of their physical advantages, but girls are often a higher rank and can kick to the guy’s unprotected groin in these matches, which really makes it competitive.

[jbasch]

Huh, I've never heard of this! I feel like I would be very self-conscious about trying to guard against this if I were a guy in one of these matches. As a dude who's been hit in the nuts more than his fair share of times, I think it's pretty much always a TKO, so I would think a woman has an advantage in a fight where that's allowed.

[Apinya97]

So many people are surprised by this, I have a link on my page about CS that says groin strikes are allowed. It’s more in Thailand that groin strikes are allowed in Thai boxing. The guys have to agree and sign up to the rules before they are allowed to spar and compete though. They mostly just focus on their own game and winning, they have many physical advantages for this. Yes, a full contact front kick to the groin is always a knock out blow, especially for a guy.

[jbasch]

Interesting! I was not aware of combat Sambo before! Generally speaking, when men and women compete, do men or women tend to win more, or is it fairly unpredictable and up to the fighters involved? My older sister did Krav Maga, and I quickly learned that helping her practice was a good way to get TKO'd that way (I guess Krav Maga has permission to groin kick in common with Sambo lol), so I was quickly deterred from helping her further lol

[Apinya97]

Competitors are very evenly matched in mixed fights, balancing a guys physical advantages against the rank and technical ability of the girl, so matches can be very unpredictable, yes.

[jbasch]

Interesting, I see! I'm curious about your experiences in mixed fights. Do you tend to win or lose, or is it more balanced? Do you tend to resort to groin kicks often, and are they effective? I mean, do guys manage to dodge or block them, or is it usually a reliable way to win?

[Apinya97]

It’s quite balanced but I would say I win more because I already have a black belt in Thai boxing, that’s why I switched martial arts, to learn something new. I go in hard with groin kicks if the opportunity presents itself, they are always a winning blow, yes. Guys can block or avoid the kick sometimes, yes, of course, but I tend to only go for the groin when it is a clear, open shot so the guy either doesn’t see it coming, or doesn’t have time to react.

[jbasch]

I see. And guys are basically fine with this? I mean, they never complain or anything?

I feel bad for them lol. Having been kicked in the nuts by girls who have done martial arts, it's devastating... like, incredibly worse than from a normal girl. I can't imagine willingly signing up for that haha.

[Apinya97]

They agree and sign up to the rules, so I guess they’re accepting of it. I think some people prefer to practice with more of a real life kind of experience. The guys don’t complain, I mean they did agree to it, so.

[jbasch]

Yeah that's fair enough, just difficult for me to imagine haha.

[ChiBears2022]

aren’t there a lot of head and groin injuries without padding? We wear padding for both in Krav Maga

[Apinya97]

Head less so because your guard is always up, or at least it should be. Groin injuries are more common, but that mostly affects guys.

[ChiBears2022]

In my krav class, groin shots are legal but guys can wear cups. Even with a cup, a hard well aimed kick can drop us, do women ever get annoyed when they have to wait in between sparring sessions for a guy to recover from a groin strike?

[Apinya97]

Every class practices differently I guess. When a girl or anyone wins a match in class they either move straight on to another opponent or some other kind of training, so there’s no waiting around.

[ChiBears2022]

Is it weird seeing a guy holding his balls on the mat after a solid strike? I hate losing weak in front of the ladies in class

[Apinya97]

It’s not weird, it’s quite a very normal reaction. It’s more funny, but I don’t really care it’s more about winning and then moving on.

[ChiBears2022]

What makes it funny? I just meant it may look weird if she sees me holding myself in front of her, like I’m worried she’s weirded out by it

[Apinya97]

Nah, it’s not weird to me. Like I say all guys react pretty much the same after taking a hard kick to their groin. It’s just funny their reaction and how much agony they are in, but like I say I don’t really care, I’m more concerned about winning and learning.

[ChiBears2022]

I once got taken down by a back heel kick from a woman over double my age. Would you be surprised if an older woman’s kick had that much affect on a younger and bigger guy

[Apinya97]

I think age is irrelevant, a guy gets kicked there and he’s down at any age.

[ChiBears2022]

So the women don’t think less of a guys manhood if he can’t take a kick down there?

They sometimes give me a hard time for weaning the cup saying it makes me look scared

[Apinya97]

No, it’s just a normal winning move and a normal reaction when that happens. I don’t think girls expect any different. Girls don’t really care, they just want to win.

[ChiBears2022]

But it’s so different than most targets, like it doesn’t take that much force to really hurt a guy

[Apinya97]

Yes, but that’s just nature’s gift to women giving us girls such an easy and devastating win should we get the opportunity to kick full contact there. Once you’ve seen it and done it so many times it’s just normal.

[ChiBears2022]

Don’t you feel bad for the guy if he’s ur friend?

[Apinya97]

😂 No, in sparring it’s competitive and all about winning. I don’t feel bad for winning.

[ChiBears2022]

Would you be okay if guys wear cups? I wouldn’t feel comfortable sparring without a cup

[Apinya97]

For me that would take away the ‘real life’ training experience and make it harder for me to win. My kick would have to be a full contact perfect strike to win, which in real life it might not have to be. So no, I wouldn’t take on a guy wearing a cup, that’s cowardly to me.

[ChiBears2022]

But even with a cup a hard kick hurts a lot

[Apinya97]

Yes, but a kick that would win the fight for me without the cup might not be a winning kick with the cup. If I’m taking on a guy with all his physical advantages I wouldn’t allow him to wear a cup, and I’d kick full contact to his groin given the chance. This is ‘real life’ training for all competitors.

[ChiBears2022]

Isn’t that kinda dangerous for his balls, what if he wants kids

[Apinya97]

That’s his problem. All competitors agree and sign up to the rules before being allowed to spar and compete. That’s part of why I don’t care kicking a guy in the balls full contact to win.

[ChiBears2022]

Are grabs ever used?

[Apinya97]

Combat sambo is a bit like MMA with judo and grappling techniques, so yes, grabbing and throwing etc are allowed. Obviously this is another advantage for bigger, stronger guys.

[ChiBears2022]

I meant like groin grabs, how would that work in your class

[Apinya97]

If the fight goes to the mat then grabbing is allowed, yes, because we wear grappling gloves that act as boxing gloves too. Obviously the guys have the physical advantage with grappling, but a groin grab can result in a tap out submission.

[ChiBears2022]

Have you ever used the move? Is it effective when the fight goes to the ground?

[Apinya97]

Yes, quite a few times. It’s super effective if you can do it, but it’s hard to win on the mat because the guys are often bigger and stronger so using a kick to the groin is far easier between the two.

[ChiBears2022]

How does it usually play out if you grab a handful of their balls

[Apinya97]

I squeeze them as hard as I possibly can and the guy taps out immediately while screaming out in agony, fight over.

[ChiBears2022]

Is it weird to hold his balls in your hand?

[Apinya97]

Again, at first maybe just like kicking them and seeing his reaction, but once you’ve seen and done it so many times it’s just part of the sport like all the other moves. MMA descended from combat sambo in part and then implemented loads of rules, but combat sambo doesn’t have many rules.

[Johnsmith119]

@Apinya97 You are right that kicks to the balls should be allowed so that u can prepare for real life situations but i mean it's still a sport and no body wants to be sterile so don't u think at least for the sake of fertility, guys should wear a cup?

I am not saying kicks to the jewels shouldn't be allowed but I think guys should be allowed to at least wear a cup otherwise it'll also be a disgusting site to witness as he might be in too much agony with permanent damage..

[Apinya97]

The trouble with guys wearing a cup is that a kick that may be a winning strike without the cup may not be with the cup, so the fight continues when really I should have won, so no, I don’t think guys should wear cups. Plus without the cup it gives them the fear of a real life fight situation. I don’t care about the agony and damage, if he’s agreed to the rules then that’s his problem, so I’ll kick as hard as I can to get the win.

[Levin]

TBH, there's lots of bullshit in martial arts. Take so called 'knife' and 'gun disarmament' in the likes of krav maga.

[Berethor]

Bruce Lee said that boxer and wrestler would beat any classical chinese martial artist.

[Furious_Revelation19]

I think its less about the brutality of it, and more along the lines of the rules applied.
It is like saying Rugby is a more brutal sport than American Football due to the pads and helmets. Which is also not true obviously.