Did God create the devil to do his dirty work?

[Anonymous]

Is Satin there so God doesn't 'get his hands dirty'? God wants hell to exist, he wants the devil to tempt people and lead some astray and he wants them to suffer eternal torture for their weakness. God clearly wants the devil there for his 'plan'. But being omnipotent surely God could administer heaven and hell without need to create Lucifer, so did God create the devil to keep his hands clean? Or perhaps the devil is just another manifestation of God, rather than a trinity he might be four?

Yes

No

Both

Neither

All of the above

Updates

+1 y

Should we really hate/despise the devil if he's part of God's plan? Perhaps we should respect the job he's forced to do. God gets to come across as benevolent, while Satin his pawn is tarnished with a bad reputation just for doing what God wants.

Updates

+1 y

Should we consider God to be a trinity in four parts... The father, the son, the holy ghost, and lucifer.

[Insignis]

Think of it this way. God is love, so in order to be love then that love must be shared. God then made His son to share that love with, and the love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. After that God made the angels so that they could also receive God's love. But in order to experience love it must be mutual and voluntary, therefore God gave the angels the gift of freewill since love is never to be forced.

One day the Father shows His creations what His plan his. God's plan was to create humans that would be saved by His Son, who would be birthed by a perfect woman without sin. The Son would defeat sin and return to the right hand of the Father, but the woman would also rise to heaven when she died and would help the Son redeem mankind through her intercession.

Lucifer didn't like the idea that a woman would one day be greater than him. Some of the angels grew gloomier everyday and eventually decided that they did not want to be a part of the plan. Lucifer then said that he would rise up and be higher than God, ascend above His throne. About 1/3 of the other angels followed suit.

Then a cataclysmic battle ensued between Lucifer and his cohorts against God's loyal angels. When defeated one of the good angels yelled out, "Michael!" Which means, "who is like God?" During Lucifer's and his cohorts last moments in Heaven they were given a chance to repent, one of the many chances they had beforehand. In their pride they decided not to amend their ways. Then the devil and his angels were thrown into Hell where they took their anger out on each other; there was nothing left to do and no desire to repent since it was too late.

You see the lesson here? God made Lucifer to share His love with. But the devil had other plans in mind. Yes God knew it MIGHT happen but He also knew that it might NOT happen. He still believes in us. If we are damned then we can only blame ourselves. You're still alive aren't you? You still have chances, do your best!

[Mesonfielde]

Definitely, it's so that people would blame the Devil rather than God, even though every act of the Devil is indirectly the act of God. Voted A).

Although I could have gone for D) and claimed that it's all superstition, but alas, this works too.

[Asker]

For people that accept the bible, you need to conclude that God created Adam and Eve with the intention being for them to disobey him. He designed his creation to break his arbitrary rules, and then decides to punish us for doing what he intended us to.

Glad he doesn't exist...

[Mesonfielde]

Exactly, God is a psycho control freak.

[Mesonfielde]

Thanks for MHO! :D

It wasn't too long until auto-selection, too. Nice timing.

[Asker]

Yes, there were quite a few opinions to choose from so it took me a while to get around to it.

[bijinbijinbijin]

i was wondeirgn this too so i googled it and found this website

praise.com/.../if-god-all-powerful-why-doesnt-he-destroy-satan

accordig to this website. Satan is a tool used by God to scare people into wanting to follow God that is why he doesn't destroy him. People would not understand God's love if there were no Satan.
Although in a way it pretty much sounds like Satan is really just another part of God which is why he can't destroy him. Like without satan there can be no God. Thats pretty much how all opposites work anyway. you can't know what is really hot unless you experience the cold. You can't know what good is untill you see bad.

[Asker]

So it's good cop, bad cop is it?

There not really opposites though, are they? God flooded the Earth and allowed most of humanity to drown, including children and infants in, some of whom had presumably never heard of God. I think that's pretty bad, God's capable of bad things too. (Unless he remodelled the continents afterwards.)

[bijinbijinbijin]

lol maybe the bad stuff he did was before he decided to separate his personalities. Before it was like one person could do good and bad things. now it is God does good things and satan does bad things.

[Kiwedin]

I don't believe in the devil or the christian god because all of the contradictions like this in the Bible. If god is all-good and all-powerful, then why would he allow evil to exist? If he's so powerful, then why can't he just make evil disappear? Lucifer is just a fallen angel, and God is, well, God. It's a fallacy, and it doesn't make sense.

[Vinvei]

If God can do anything he would have destroyed Satan long ago in the Bible. But when there's an evil there's a way for 'God' to dictate what is bad and what is good. Satan makes God look good.

But this video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrtdLukslY

- makes Satan look like the lesser of the two evils...

[Asker]

Indeed

[Anonymous]

I don't think there is God and Satan/Devil/Lucifer. I do believe that a looooooooooooooooong time ago some creatures (nowadays called aliens or unidentified life forms) visited earth (maybe even created us from the animals DNAs that they collected and gave us a little bit of their intelligence?) and people just couldn't understand what they were. Never seen creatures come down from the sky with sounds of thunder, light as bright as sun, things never seen neither heard of about... Then to understand what it was people decided that they are Gods (that's why there are so many different Gods in different cultures). Or maybe the creatures themselves introduced as Gods? Satan/Devil/Lucifer could be the bad creatures. It kind of makes sense, since we never seen a God and I remember reading somewhere in the Bible about how God approached the earth. There was said something like "The sound was as if thousands of thunders were striking at the same time and the light was so bright it was almost impossible to look" or something like that. Doesn't this sound a lot like a spaceship? That means God isn't all mighty thing that created everything. He may be an alien or even a creature like us, humans? These aliens may be the reason why we have religion. Maybe they were so intelligent that they decided to make us like a perfect race by saying that we MUST be religious, yet we aren't. Religion may be the answer to create Utopia, but if those aliens made us they did a mistake somewhere which makes us so different from each other. So yeah. In my opinion religion and God is just a way to make life easier and better.

[BiffWebster]

i will say that the Devil is far more interesting character than god is. I mean think about it, he's a rebellious teenager that didn't want to listen to dad, and frankly if your read any of the three holy books, you'll find that God is the leading cause of death, destruction and genocide compared to the devil.

maybe the devil is the good guy ^^

[Asker]

They say the victor writes the history books... the bible's hardly one of those, but still...

[BiffWebster]

nah the bible was written by 2,000 years after the supposed events and passed down through word of mouth by illiterate people. Not to mention that god only seems to talk to one ":chosen" individual when there is absolutely no one around, and then having the events being recorded as if they happened the day before 2,000 years later

-_- that is a lot of speculation and empty spaces if you ask me

[godfatherfan]

So you are wondering in an invisible "good guy" created an invisible "bad guy"? and neither has given proof of it's existence? ARGHHHH...
this world would be a peaceful place if all religions were completely done away with.
think for yourself, don't let your up bringing dictate who you are.
if your an educated person, and you never had heard of religion until say 20 years old, then someone told you about any religion at all, you would call bullshit and tell that person to hit the road. there are so many holes in all religion it is horrible.

[Asker]

I'm an atheist, just trying to gauge what others think...

[godfatherfan]

Thank God

[godfatherfan]

by the way... if you an Atheist, you believe in nothing. Since you believe in nothing you believe in something. Thus you are not an Atheist. Really everyone is at least Agnostic. Even I can't say there is no possibility that there is some kind of "god". I just don't believe if there is one it is so full of itself it needs to be prayed to constantly.

[Asker]

Being an atheist doesn't mean believing in nothing, it means that there's nothing in which I believe. (There's a difference.)

Anyway the definition of atheist I use is "One who rejects belief in god/s", rejecting belief isn't the same as saying gods don't exist. I'm an agnostic and an atheist as I can't prove there are no gods and I don't believe in any gods (and reject belief in them).

So you were mistaken.

[Ouroboros]

Atheist here, but I know a bit of this.
1. Satin is a cloth. Satan is the devil, also known as Lucifer.
2. If I'm remembering correctly, Lucifer was an angel before he was cast out of heaven, so it's unlikely he was created to do dirty work.
3. I'm much fuzzier on this, but I seem to remember Yahweh wanting the angels to love humans more than him, and Lucifer couldn't bring himself to love the imperfect creatures more than his father, and as such, was cast out of heaven into hell. (I know I'm missing something somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that's the gist of things.)
4. A trinity is a TRInity. Tri- means three an -nity means one, so a trinity means three as one, or one made of three. You can't really have a four-part trinity. Plus there's also the satanic trinity, which is Lucifer, the dragon, and something else that always escapes me.

So yeah, there ya go.

[UrHomie]

Holy shizit you blowing my mind! I'll ask Him when I go to heaven and somehow post the answer here. But u make a goodpoint. Everyone says God makes no mistakes but in the bible it says God regreted making man. Oh The Contradictions.

[hswhis]

If God regretted making man why did He sacrifice His only son so that we may be redeemed?

[UrHomie]

@hswhis bruh it says that in the old testament not the new.

[Asker]

Keep me posted...

[hswhis]

Wrong. There are still over 365 prophecies in the OT that speak of the Messiah. If God was so dissatisfied with mankind, why redundancy of foretelling His plan on saving it?

You didn't answer my question posed and your statement was incorrect.

[Asker]

@hswhis Clearly he wanted to sacrifice his son. He could have just forgiven us if he wanted to. He sacrificed his son to himself so that he could forgive us for breaking his rules. Do your really think that makes sense?

[Pmnm-325]

He did flood the earth and kinda started over

[hswhis]

Yes, it does because God cannot contradict Himself. The price to be paid for sin has always been a blood sacrifice under Levitical law.(Lev 16:10, 20-22). Therefore for all of mankind to be redeemed, a blood sacrifice was required. If it was so in the past, it must be so in the future otherwise He wold have contradicted Himself. Jesus fulfilled this requirement and it is through His blood that we are redeemed.

It makes perfect sense.

[Izzy2102]

Satan or Lucifer was an angel once but then decided he didn't want to do what god tells him anymore. So he got kicked out of heaven. That story always kinda reminds of Marvels thor, a bratty space god who gets kicked out of heaven/valhalla
So to answer your question no he didn't

[Asker]

But he knew all of that would happen when he created Lucifer, didn't he? God chose to create an angel who would rebel.

[paulsweis]

Even if he didn't know at the time, he knows now, he could remove Lucifer if he chose

[Random_chick_2384]

We created the devil so only the strong believers will make it to heaven. And not the weak. The strong almost always survive. No matter what it is. In the animal kingdom the weak will die. In crops the weak plants or bad plants will die. Humans the weak will die ( unless an accident happens ) it's the same with spiritual. The weak Christians will die.

[UrHomie]

Good comment. I'm sorry I accidentally down voted it. I meant an up vote

[Random_chick_2384]

Thanks and it's on ☺️

[Random_chick_2384]

*ok.

[paulsweis]

So you are agreeing with the premise, that God needs Lucifer in order to do his dirty work?

[Curious-koala]

I just think it's funny that religious people need a god and a devil to encourage them to be a good person.

[Asker]

It is indeed.

[Jerusha]

This has been an argument since forever, my answer is: unicorns.

[Asker]

Invisible pink unicorns, or any unicorns?

[Jerusha]

Fluffy unicorns, particularly.

[Jerusha]

I like your poll.

[Asker]

So do I... Thanks.

[cipher42]

But why couldn't god destroy him? Or predict that satan would do that?

[cipher42]

Shoot, sorry. That was supposed to be a comment. No idea how that happened. I blame my phone being idiotic.

But to answer your question, your idea certainly makes more sense than God not being able to control lucifer, or to predict what he would do.

[cipher42]

(Though I don't personally believe in any of it. In part because of this very issue.)

[Asker]

I don't believe either, but I think it's interesting as a thought experiment.

[Anonymous]

God loves all his creations, so he gives the living ones free will. Lucifer wanted to be like God (like with all the power, be in charge, know everything), that wasn't happening, so he was thrown out of Heaven and took it upon himself to turn people against God, therefore becoming Satan.

[Asker]

But surely God knew that would happen when he created Lucifer, just as he new Adam and Eve would be unable to resist temptation. He wanted them to take the forbidden fruit. It's all what God intended. He creates an imperfect creation so he can punish it.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, he knew what would happen; but He loves his creation so much that he allows it to do what it wants, after all, we were created in his image. Doesn't God have free will? What kind of God would He be if he dictated every thought and action? Of course, there are rules and punishment (Satan's going to spend enternity in the lake of fire with all of the unbelievers/disobedient people), because He is our Father, and that's what good parents do.

[Opinion Owner]

I can give you biblical references if you need them.

[Marstalk]

Who is this Satin you speak of? I never heard of it. No God did not create satan. Satan simply means accuser. There is no need to imply a heavenly being to the idea. Lucifer is a mythological construct. More to due with religions outside of Judaism/Christianity than with it.

[Asker]

Your claiming that Christians don't consider God to have created Lucifer, who then became satan/the Devil?

[Marstalk]

It's a mythological character. Christians now consider Satan as a being. But that necessarily was not always true or even true to some Christians today. Lucifer is his fallen name in mythology, Satan or devil is his alternate name by mythology.
While yes I stated God did not create him. I state that as my opinion and not necessarily the consensus of the whole. Probably should have separated the two.
I am saying that nothing became Satan or the devil. That the Satan is a word used as accuser in the Christian bible.
Also you need to understand that for the Hebrews in the Old Testament. Everything came from God. Whether it was good or bad. So what we consider mental illness to us they would have said God is punishing them for their or their parents sins. Just as the question posed to Jesus in the New Testament.
Revelation is a book used for some of the aspects given to the devil/Satan. I would not look to that book for many answer on the devil or the future.

[Marstalk]

The parallels between Roman rule and the concepts in Revelation are pretty strong.

[Asker]

Indeed, God can't take credit for roses or wine without taking credit for genital herpes as well.

[Marstalk]

Lol, well maybe we developed them both. Or at least evolution did.

[Anonymous]

Satan was the chief angel known as Lucifer, he was created perfect as the other angels. But when he decided to take God's place he was given opportunity to repent; he rejected it and was expelled, not before taking with him a third of the angels. They came to Earth where they lied to the first humans, this is how sin appeared here.

He and everyone who follows him will be destroyed on the judgement day.

[Asker]

But God wanted all of that to happen, right?

[Opinion Owner]

No, he didn't

[Asker]

But God created him knowing that all of that would happen.

[Opinion Owner]

Ever played a video game with multiple endings? The creators know all the endings, but they don't know which one will the player get first.

[Asker]

You're saying God isn't omniscient?

[Asker]

And no I haven't actually...

[SillyQuirks_]

This. 👍👍 well said

[Insignis]

How could the devil "descend" to earth if he was already in hell before the creation of man. The "sons of god" were humans not angels. An ethereal spirit has no desire to mate with a corporeal body.

[paulsweis]

Even if god isn't omniscient and didn't know, he knows now and could change it at any time, it sounds ike you are agreeing with the premise that God chooses to have Lucifer there to do his dirty work.

[Opinion Owner]

@paulsweis God gives everyone the freedom of choice.

[Anonymous]

Evidently not.

whanethewhip.wdfiles.com/.../kill-count.jpg

[Asker]

So he evidently he isn't doing God's dirty work, but perhaps his role is to be seen to be the bad one so God can pretend he doesn't have blood on his hands.

[Zango91]

According to Christianity, God created 4 archangels. Lucifer, Gabriel, Michael and Rafael. (Somebody make sure if the names are right). Lucifer was like his right hand. The Angel of Light. But Lucifer felt that he is no different from God and he went against him. So God Kicked him to a lower place and created hell. I don't want to comment on the rest of the question. But Thor and Loki are more fun :P

[HappyToBeAlive]

God created lucifer as part of a new race that like humans, has free will. Once god created adam, the first human, god asked all to bow to him however lucifer did not. He thought he was better than adam and humans. So because satin has free will, he chose to be evil. God didn't create him to be evil. And because he hates adam and humanity, he takes it upon himself to corrupt humanity and prove to god how bad humans are.

[HappyToBeAlive]

I just realized that i misspelled satan a bunch of times lol. Oh well

[Asker]

"God didn't create him to be evil."

But God created him knowing that he would be evil, didn't he?

[Asker]

So did I...

[HappyToBeAlive]

God gave him a choice.

[HappyToBeAlive]

God doesn't force anyone to be good or evil, he gives all mortals a choice (except angles because they dont have free will)

[Asker]

But God knew the decision he would make and yet created him that way anyway.

[Asker]

So Satan doesn't have free will? How did Lucifer rebel without it? It was God's will that he disobey was it?

[HappyToBeAlive]

I said that satan DOES have free will which is why he is able to rebel unlike angels. However, god, being all knowing, knew that this would happen. It was a test to gods creations. I assume you're being confused because you're talking from a christianity pov right?

[Asker]

You said angels don't have free will, was Lucifer an angel with free will?

So you think God knows everything and has free will? Do you not see the conflict?

[HappyToBeAlive]

Lucifer was never nor will he ever be an angel. Lucifer was of a different race. There are three races created that we know of: humans (children of adam), jinn (lucifer was a jinn), and angels (angels dont have free will and are created for the sole purpose of serving god. Which is why none can rebel). Christianity has satan painted as a fallen angel which is why its confusing. Humans and jinn only are capable of free will and the ability to reason right and wrong. That is why we are better than angels in a sense. Because god can test us, but he can't test angels because they are right by design.

[Asker]

I was talking about the Christian God.

[Asker]

And do you not see that God can't know all and have free will?

[HappyToBeAlive]

He can give free will and now the possibilities of all that you can do. To be honest i can't explain to you how gods will works. No one does. So you are looking for an answer that does not exist. All god tells us is that he is perfect and every decision he makes is perfect. He is always right. I can rest my mind easy at night because that answer is good enough for me. Good luck man.

[Asker]

I wasn't saying can he give free will, but rather does he possess it himself. Do you think God has free will? Because he can't have free will and know everything.

[HappyToBeAlive]

Yes he does. He created the universe. He has no family, no higher being telling him what to do. He is perfection. No one created him to be perfect. God is just there

[Asker]

If he know everything he knows exactly what he will do at every point in time, he can't make any decisions as he already knows what he will do. He can't have free will and know everything.

[HappyToBeAlive]

You just said that he knows everything. Yes. He has free will because he can do anything, everything he does is perfect. He knows what he will do in every point in time but he can do what ever he wants. I dont think what you're saying makes sense. Its like i know im going to work tomorrow but i dont have free will because i know what im doing tomorrow.

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

We cannot even begin to fathom the depths of God's designs or his thoughts, for his thoughts are not our thoughts. All will be made clear on the day of reckoning. A quote that I like and live by as a general rule is this: what God did not mention in the Bible is best left untouched, because knowledge is a dangerous thing, and our minds cannot comprehend the divine.

God created everything with free will, and Satan (or Lucifer, as he was called in heaven) decided to abuse his and attempted to take the throne of God, and so God cast him out of heaven. As revenge, Satan decided to screw with God's plan. I do not know why God does not just incinerate him and make things perfect right now, but for whatever reason, he hasn't yet. But rest assured that Satan's reckoning is near and all of Creation will be made perfect once more.

[Asker]

"As revenge, Satan decided to screw with God's plan."

But surely God knew exactly what would happen before he created Lucifer. He could have designed a different angel that wouldn't want to rebel. He clearly wants the Devil to be there, so how can Satan interfere with God's plan, surely he is part of it?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

Of course Satan is a part of it. Everything that ever happened is a part of it. Is it desirable? No. Is it necessary? Yes. Like I said, God is beyond human comprehension. You cannot bind God to human logic or physical law. God is a metaphysical, divine, extradimensional being. God created Lucifer with free will, and because he created free will, he chose not to stop Lucifer from rebelling because that would go against God's own law. God is all-powerful, but because he is benevolent, he is bound by that benevolence. He only allows Satan to exist because he is a good God, not because he wants to. The same goes for all the wicked people in the world. They only exist because of his nature as a benevolent Creator, not because he wants them to.

The wicked and the sinful will suffer in hell. They may get pleasure in life, but in death they shall forever be bound by their sins.

[Asker]

"Is it necessary? Yes." So God is incapable of doing it without him?

Does God have free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

That's not what I meant. When I say it is necessary, I mean this: Mankind fell from God's original plan of creating a perfect creation where man was united with God. Satan only exists as a tool through which we are reunited with God. Unbeknownst to Satan, while he may lead others astray, he unwittingly becomes the tool through which sinners are cleansed. The judgment intended for us will be placed upon him for all of eternity because of his wickedness.

[Asker]

"Unbeknownst to Satan" Can he not read the bible, or listen in on conversations between Christians? Surely he would know by now.

Do you think God has free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

He does it everyday. Satan is very aware of what will happen, but he still chooses to defy God. Yes, God has free will. But that doesn't mean he will always act upon it.

[Asker]

The why did you say "Unbeknownst to Satan"?

Does God know everything or does he have free will?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

Because Satan is not all-knowing. God is, and always has been. I already answered your question on God's free will.

[Asker]

So he doesn't everything then?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

No,, Satan does not know everything. Let me point you in the direction of this fantastic book, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem. It can give you much better answers than I can. The book deals with the concept of free will, angels, the crucifixion, spirits and everything in between.

www.amazon.com/.../0310286700

[Asker]

No, I was talking about God. He could know everything or he could have free will, but not both, that would be inconsistent.

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

And why would that be inconsistent? Being all-knowing has nothing to do with having free will.

[Asker]

Yes it does. If God know everything that means he know exactly what he will do regarding everthing at every point in time. He has no scope to make any decisions as he already knows what he will do completely. He can't know everything and have free will, he must lack at least one. Which is it?

[The_Eternal_Emperor]

He lacks neither. Like I said before, God does not operate on human principle. I grow weary of this discussion. Respectfully, I end this conversation here.

[Asker]

So you think God can violate logic? And that he attributes can be logically inconsistent?

2 + 2 = 5 if God says it does, am I right?

[InquisitiveMale]

It's contributed to the good and bad we all have inside of us. Man is source of both God and the Devil.

[Asker]

For sure, we created him, and the others...

[InquisitiveMale]

Yes, and at the time we needed it. Someone had to explain why so much bad shit happened in the world. As cognitive beings it's next to impossible for us to believe things happen and yet not seek a reason. When there is not a valid explanation, it makes sense we would turn to a creation of our own minds to answer the unknown.

The day God dies in the minds of humans and is passed off as superstitious beliefs, like we now believe our forebears Gods to be, that is the day humans will advance yet again as was seen with the birth of technology. It will be an age of enlightenment.

Wish I was alive to see that day. Unfortunately that's still some generations away.

[Asker]

"When there is not a valid explanation..." we make do with an invalid one...

[InquisitiveMale]

It will free us as a species and allow us to be everything we can be- I think it would unify us as a species. Then maybe we can truly consider how it is we got to be.

After all, evolution and god are the two main thoughts behind our inception. However, in my mind, god's an insane idea in an omnipresent respect, and evolution doesn't make jumps.

[chocolatedragon]

It's not the devil. It simply the perception of wrongdoing, temptation and guilt that religious people have learned to blame on the devil instead of themselves.

[Asker]

And instead of blaming their God for evil, they can pretend the devil is responsible, even though their God is ostensibly all powerful.

[chocolatedragon]

Only religious people believe is powerful. But I don't think most religious people truly fear him since they sin left and right with no remorse lol. Back in the day, religion wad used to control masses, now it's more about having spirituality in your life. I don't need it, but I don't hate on those who do.

[christen5477]

No.. God created us all with the option to chose right or wrong... the devil chose to be evil. He was once a beautiful angel in Heaven.

[Asker]

But God created him in such a way the he would rebel, God knew exactly what Lucifer would do and yet created him like that anyway.

[Pmnm-325]

Lucifer was taken over by jealousy that god was more powerful and how god like humans more than angles. Satan just wants to be like god. God gives humans a choice of right or wrong. We have free will. God wants to see who is worthy to go to heaven.