Niceness Might Not be Sufficient but it is Necessary

[the_rake]

Anyone who is familiar with the debate in conventional dating about whether or not women should date nice guys has probably seen the Jenna Marbles video:

This video is quite popular now and a lot of people agree with her sentiments, e.g. looking through some of the comments on the video:

'If you complain that you're a "nice guy" and girls don't like you it shows that you're a condescending asshole who is only nice because he wants girls to be with him, which doesn't make you a "nice guy"'

'Most so-called “nice guys” aren’t nice at all. They’re self-entitled, self-pitying, petulant assholes.'

'In my experience, people who brag about being "nice" often have little else to bring to the table.'

I can see why people would think this but let's look at things from another perspective. In my view, she shares some pretty disdainful attitudes in the video and misconceptions of what a nice guy is all about:

'I'd say 90% of the time guys say [nice guys finish last], it's about some reeeeally hot girl ... my problem here, my friend is, you're f**king swinging for the fences'

'There's a reason Beyonce is married to Jay Z, why Angelina Jolie f***s and sucks Brad Pitt's d***k off, I mean COME ON, people look for their EQUAL. Smart people like other smart people, funny people like other funny people, people like to have things in f**king COMMON!'

'You're probably very nice, but I know that you probably have nothing in common with a veeery good looking model that is completely that is very obsessed with material belongings and can't hold a conversation with a rock'

Nice Guys can be Attractive Too!

^give this guy a chance!

Ok, that last point might have been accurate. But still, she makes all kinds of erroneous assumptions about the cliched 'nice guy' here.

In this article, I'm going to focus on the fact that THERE IS NO CORRELATION BETWEEN NICENESS AND ATTRACTIVENESS or lack, thereof.

In my view, these stereotyped misconceptions of the nice guy are in fact significantly flawed, see here: https://www.girlsaskguys.com/guys-behavior/a23286-my-take-on-the-nice-guy-debate

In this my take, I argued against the commonly held perception that the nice guy is unconfident, that he's a push over, passive-aggressive manipulator, etc. etc.

Sure, it's true that some nice guys are all these things and they really ARE punching waaay above their league. In fact, some 'nice guys' really AREN'T all that nice and really are trying to emotionally blackmail their way into a girls panties. Self-identified nice guys reading this article take note: make sure to stay self-aware of your own intentions when talking to a woman so that you are not using any manipulative tactics without realising it. And ensure that you are working on your image, interests, attractiveness as well so that you are not relying on your niceness alone.

But this is blatantly obvious. Blatantly.

What Jenna Marbles fails to identify is the following:

- Not all nice guys (as identified by others) are 'f**king swinging for the fences'.

- Not all nice guys are shooting for Beyonce or Angelina Jolie material.

- Not all nice guys necessarily have interest in a narcissistically materially obsessed model that can't even hold a conversation with a rock (not saying all models are like this).

I mean, shouldn't it be obvious and intuitive that a lot of men nowadays are NOT complaining because they're niceness isn't getting them 8/10 and 9/10s? Rather, a lot of men are complaining because not only are they nice, but they also ARE attractive, they do work out, they do have cool and fascinating interests. But pushier and manipulative men who, quite frankly speaking, belong to lower leagues in terms of physical attractiveness, success and real self-confidence in one's own abilities and personality are doing better than them? And a lot of the time, it's not because these men are preferred but it's simply because these men know how to push in front of the cue without getting caught - speaking metaphorically here.

Too often, women are getting with thickos and inbred genetically stunted lowlifes because these are the same guys that know how to treat women like dirt, preying on their emotional insecurities and insecurities about their appearance in a world that is very consumer oriented. Women don't even realise this is happening a lot of the time because the psychological manipulation is very subtle and adept. But this does not excuse them for dismissing genuinely nice guys that are attractive and ARE (inwardly) confident even if does not necessarily show right away. Sometimes you just have to give people a chance to show you who they really are before you see their true traits and attractiveness. In a competitive and individualistic world where society puts pressure on men to be dominant and aggressive initiators, they DON'T always have the chance to convey all their best, most positive attributes with that same succinct adeptness a polished turd salesman might have.

So this is why the my take is titled 'niceness might not be sufficient but it is necessary'. It's not sufficient because I agree that it's fair for women to have standards related to attractiveness, personality, confidence, etc. But it is necessary because not only would this be fairer for a lot of men, women would be happier and more secure in their relationships. Society on the whole would be a better place which did not reward these overly dominating and aggressive men that always seem to get ahead (and often seem to make more abusive spouses and neglectful parents, bringing up a new generation of dominating and aggressive men who also happen to be adept at getting their way with women through psychological warfare).

[hellionthesage]

I think the real issue isn't that the nice guy is really manipulative and feels entiteled etc. I think the issue is that women don't admit what they want. The fact is a nice guy who gets upset by being rejected (don't we all?) isn't him being manipulative or entitled. The fact that they complain is because they are told women like nice guys but then they are rejected again and again for being a "nice guy". Its the conflicting message that gets them so frustrated. The other issue I think is that a lot of women cannot distinguish between being nice and confident and an asshole (who in my opinion are very much unconfident and are simply overcompensating). This causes a lot of conflict. Then you have the women who complain that there boyfriend is an asshole and they just want a nice guy who then promply ignore the nice guy to find anotther asshole then act suprised that the guy who was an asshole when she first met him is still, all this time later, an asshole. If a woman wants that I don't think anybody really would care, her life her descisions, its the fact that many women refuse to acknowledge that it is their choice that they are responsible for who they date and therefore have no right to complain when those people act the way they always have. So I think this all plays into why nice guys are so frustrated, not because women don't seem to like them but that so many women claim they do when their actions say they don't. Imagine going to work and having your boss tell you to do something then having them yell/reprimand you for doing exactly as they asked, its much the same thing.

[the_rake]

I agree with your sentiments that the ambiguity will exacerbate the nice guy's frustration (which is to be expected when society has plainly lied to him about what women want). However, I think it's also important to talk about the toxic social effects of choosing the assholes over the nice guy.

Let's assume nice guy a) and asshole b) are both equally attractive men in other regards because this removes some of the confusion, as well as the misconception that 'nice guys' don't have anything else going for them. Let's also assume the nice guy is genuinely nice: he is not just using manipulative tactics (consciously or subconsciously) to make the woman feel guilty into sleeping with him. The asshole WILL be more successful and the reason is simple: he's obnoxious, he's in your face and he will go after what he wants even if he hurts people's feelings. When the woman sees the asshole, she takes him because he is the easier option.

[the_rake]

And there you have it: it's not because she prefers the asshole to the nice guy (who is actually attractive and has GENUINE inner confidence). It's simply because the asshole pushed in front of the cue and the lady selling hot dogs couldn't be bothered telling him to get back in line. In fact, as far as she's concerned, 'first come first served'. If the nice guy wanted hot dogs he should have kept a better eye on his place in the cue. His fault.

[hellionthesage]

Well that was what I was getting at with how women don't seem to differentiate between confidence and being an asshole they frequently conflate the two so if a guy is being nice and considerate he seems to be less confident then the guy who doesn't care. Semantics really, I concurr with what your saying (plus it convinces people to act in such a fashion which is a terrible trend)

[the_rake]

I'd like to put in a good word for (some) extroverts here, because there are those nice guys that also DO keep their place in the cue (assertiveness). Basically, those are the guys society refers to as the 'good guys'. But, one has to wonder, why should they HAVE to, and why can't the hot dog lady show a bit of conscientiousness when the nice guy DOES have the balls to stand up and say, "hey, he pushed in front, please serve me first."

As for the social consequences: essentially, when assholes are being successful, there will be more abusive relationships (emotionally and physically), more emotionally damaged children that grow up to become assholes and more of these individuals in society means more aggression, more violence, more crime, etc.

[the_rake]

@hellionthesage

'Well that was what I was getting at with how women don't seem to differentiate between confidence and being an asshole they frequently conflate the two so if a guy is being nice and considerate he seems to be less confident then the guy who doesn't care.'

Yeah, I meant to acknowledge that you made this point, my bad.

[the_rake]

That said, I don't think the difference is entirely semantic, for example you say that,

'If a woman wants that I don't think anybody really would care, her life her descisions, '

Which is true, but her decisions affect more than just herself. Like I said, assholes being sexually rewarded for their behaviour but this can have extremely negative social consequences.

[hellionthesage]

I also agree with that, "no man is an island" etc. I don't think it would matter as much would be more accurate. Unless its on a wide scale. You might care that some one drinks to much but if it doesn't directly affect you then your not really foaming at the mouth about it, so that is what I meant, you care only to the extent of its impact on others (and obviously the individual but not as extreme if that makes sense).

[the_rake]

true, but we're talking about a widespread phenomena. in individual cases though, I can agree though that the woman's decision does not directly affect me or society at large.

[hellionthesage]

agreed. My only real issue is where does one draw the line, that is how do you allow others free domain over their lives ie the right to make decisions poor or otherwise while still maintaining society? That is more what I was getting at. Does that make sense?

[the_rake]

'you allow others free domain over their lives ie the right to make decisions poor or otherwise while still maintaining society'

Well, for one thing passing moral judgement isn't the same as prohibiting behaviour.

For another, giving the right kind of men the information they need to overcome this double standards dating dilemma is going to empower them to make the right decisions.

The only other thing is that polygamy being illegal might prohibit women from committed polygynous practices but it doesn't mean they have to date or marry men they don't freely choose to.

These are the most feasible solutions I know of.

[hellionthesage]

True. I am in fact all for men being told the truth, everybody really. I do think that will resolve most issues.

[the_rake]

I don't know about most, but certainly some.

[PippiL]

The fundamental problem lies in the fact that women are attracted to a lot of "bad boy" characteristics.
1. They're sexual. They're good at sex because they've done it many times before. Sex with a more experienced, dark, sensual man is like crack for some women.
2. They're broken. It's alarming how appealing this is--in the beginning. He's dark and tormented and we want to fix him. It's in our nature. This is why Twilight is a bestseller.
3. They're unpredictable. Spontaneity keeps the romance alive. And it keeps him edgy and mysterious.
4. They're unavailable. We always want what we can't have.

Unfortunately, as you said, a lot of "bad boys" are emotionally manipulative. Women would be a lot better off if they'd find someone who isn't broken, who answers calls, and does what he says he's going to do. And a lot of women have to learn this the hard way, unfortunately.

[the_rake]

All very true, but women do not HAVE to learn the hard way.

They could choose highly sexual and spontaneous men that are initially uninvested not because they are assholes but because they actually have a life outside of the woman. In short, there are lots of nice men like that: the dating game can be kept both civil AND exciting for the women. But lots of women are ignorant to this fact.

[the_rake]

it's like the difference between riding a rollercoaster with no belt versus getting all the same fun and passion with one. it's perfectly possible, and lots of nice men are attractive in other ways and can give women what they want. they just need to stop being so lazy and passive in the way they screen partners.

[PippiL]

That's a good analogy. Point me in the direction of one of these roller coasters with a belt, please.

[the_rake]

hah, well that's a tricky one because I don't know you personally! nice attractive men are quite physically active... lots of them do things like yoga, gymnastics and ballet, I've heard.

[Rawrzz]

Speaking from experience?

[the_rake]

@Rawrzz

hah well out of the three I only do yoga. I was gonna mention all kinds of things but then I guess 'bad boys' share certain interests of mine also :P

I guess it's about the values you are looking for in a person and how like attracts like (the values you already have will be the same as the values in the people that you meet). So with this in mind, there's nothing to do but address your own personal philosophy.

[Rawrzz]

Oh, I meant @PippiL

[SomeOtherGuy]

@PippiL I like how you point out sex and romance in your opinion. Those have largely been identified as the important points of desirability in a relationship. Fixing a guy can feel very romantic.
It also perfectly illustrates a point I have been making recently n

[xxcchhllaauu]

I feel all this talk is bullshite first off. I'm nice and not because I want something in return it's cuz that how I was raised. but I am also tormented popular at times. I guess what I'm trying to say is everyone is different. but when ever I see a girl talking about relationships and how a guy should or shouldn't be I feel like their excluding how big they want their partners dick. seriously dick size completely ruined my life my thoughts of getting a wife or girlfriend and my belief in a god

[the_rake]

nah, I'm cool with @PippiL 's perspective on this. at least she's honest about what she wants.

[ArtDent]

This is EXACTLY what the men who point out 'alpha fux/beta bux' are saying.

Well said

[SomeOtherGuy]

I prefer to take note of two different guys. Nice guys and good guys. Nice guys have been erroneously taught that if you act like a good person you are entitled to a reward.

This is of course wrong. Being a good person is important, but the reward is static. You are creating something when you are a genuinely good person. But that's not what this is about.

You sound like you completely want to change reality and society to cater to an ideal where guys who are patient and wise gain women of high caliber.
But those things are not and will not ever be related. Otherwise the Dhali Lama would be up to his neck in the finest of women.

Instead you must submit to reality and understand society will change slowly. If you are a good person and you want women to be with a good partner, you must pursue and encourage others to pursue while cultivating yourself as a human being.

Realize, confidently, that you are a person who can contribute something meaningful to a relationship. Foster a stable and healthy lifestyle. Maintain interests that come in a wide variety and be cultured. And believe that have a responsibility to go out into the world to find a partner who will appreciate those things and deserves that in their life. Step past the bad boys and make a damn effort. Invite the person you like into your life. And if they do go for someone who makes their life toxic then realize they weren't the right person in the first place and move on. But provide them with encouragement from time to time.

It's actually very easy to explain, but lengthy to write.

Further, people who are typically this kind of good person are clerical types, and are not going to meet everyone's needs. Which is fine.
A bad boy isn't always what you think they are. And not every woman is attracted to aggression. There's ways to make yourself noticed by these partners without being aggressive.
Explaining all this is also lengthy. Just realize that the woman you find chilling at home, at a play, and in a club have vastly different needs and desires.

[the_rake]

Generally speaking I agree on this. The stereotypical 'nice guy' has manipulative traits in so far as he does supposedly 'nice' things for others expecting some kind of reward for his behaviour - e. g. popularity, nice women, etc. The 'good guy' just does things from the goodness of his own heart.

But it's past the scope of this article since I'm talking mainly about the good guy here and how women still some manage failing to see these positive traits even in an attractive man who possesses them.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@the_rake You're suggesting that all women should put the highest of value on a mans sense of empathy and compassion. Like I said, those are the traits of a clerical type. They will not and do not cater to everyone's needs. They do not translate into sexual prowess or romantic ability, which are largely desired when picking a partner. They're independent of those two things, actually.
They have a lot of value, but not when it comes to a relationship. Men and women are looking for romance and/or sex. If they aren't then they're probably looking to settle or don't want a relationship at all. For both sexes.
I'm a good guy. I do it because it makes my life more positive. Because I want to share that positivity with others. But I no longer get it in my head that it should be the end all be all of dating because that isn't in line with human nature.
Rather, people should cultivate wisdom before going into a relationship. Not find a partner who is wise for them.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Does that make sense?
I'm not underplaying the traits of a wise person full of compassion and empathy and respect , but rather asking you to see that they're separate from what makes a relationship a relationship. That cannot and will not change.
We should value cultivating those things in ourselves. That way we know when they are absent in others and how that can harm us.
Is this making sense yet?

[SomeOtherGuy]

Honestly in response to your argument I would say that it makes more sense for nice guys to cultivate a sense of romance and sexuality and use that to attract women then to demand women forgo those needs for nice guys.
Then, on the side I would ask that all people cultivate wisdom in order to identify those who are toxic and foolish, to ensure all their relationships with their fellow human beings are healthy and happy.
Because again. They're separate. They're mutually important, but they're separate.
I really wanna know if this is clicking for you because it clicks for me and I feel I'm spelling it out in a very clear way.

[the_rake]

@SomeOtherGuy 'You're suggesting that all women should put the highest of value on a mans sense of empathy and compassion. Like I said, those are the traits of a clerical type.'

Not all nice guys have no personality. You can be empathetic and compassionate but have personality in lots of other ways. And genuine, hardcore empathy is pretty fucking interesting by itself. Think about firemen that rush into burning buildings to save little kids' lives, or people that go on dangerous missions to assassinate foreign dictators. Everything they do, they do it for love.

'They do not translate into sexual prowess or romantic ability, which are largely desired when picking a partner.'

I'm saying the nice guy can also possess these traits.

'But I no longer get it in my head that it should be the end all be all of dating '

I don't think it should be the end all either.

[the_rake]

'they're separate from what makes a relationship a relationship.'

they aren't completely separate because those factors will definitely come into consideration (along with many others).

'I really wanna know if this is clicking for you because it clicks for me and I feel I'm spelling it out in a very clear way.'

It clicks, lol. I just have a different view point.

[SomeOtherGuy]

It's fine to have another viewpoint. Such is life.

We don't differ in believing that empathy and compassion are important in a relationship. But sex and romance do not share similarities between compassion and empathy. They operate independently of one another. But compassion and empathy should be present for a mate in a relationship, yes.
However, empathy, compassion, and our ability to see when it is absent in others, is more important as a trait that we should have within ourselves, that way we can see when it's missing in a partner.
I believe we agree there.
So the next step is to see that this wisdom is something we should all have, especially in ourselves, and not simply something we look for in others.
Not just for love interests, but for all our platonic relationships as well.

Being a good person isn't about love and romantic relationships. It's a lot bigger than that. I think you underplay its importance by confining it to finding a partner.

[SomeOtherGuy]

What I'm trying to say is that if we are wise, we will not go for people who lack empathy and compassion. We should not demand it in others, but rather demand it from ourselves.

Empathy and compassion Come in various quantities in everyone. Clerical types have more of it than others.
After the quantity necessary to have healthy relationships, it should be a matter of preference.
If men who greatly care for others is your thing, great. If earning potential and comfort is your thing fine. If a sense of adventure and travel is desired, cool.
But empathy and compassion should be a requirement only up to the point where it allows a healthy relationship.

You may agree. And I may just be here arguing because I don't feel your myTake explains that concept very well, and leads people to erroneous conclusions or causes them to disregard this concept outright.
@the_rake

[SomeOtherGuy]

I am not saying good guys are lacking romance or sexual prowess. But there are a lot of good guys who erroneously believe that their traits translate to romance and sexual prowess. They don't. You must cultivate them separately. So I demand that good guys should cultivate those traits so women do pick them more often and have a reason to.

Good guys need to stop thinking that being a good guy is going to get you a girlfriend. It takes more than that and if you're being a good guy to get a girlfriend, you have already missed the point and now you're just a 'Nice guy'

[the_rake]

Well, I already gave you some examples of masculine/ heroic empathy or compassion that could easily stimulate erotic arousal in a woman. But let's look at things from a different angle:

'sex and romance do not share similarities between compassion and empathy'

Maybe not sex, but romance certainly, if we're talking about a genuine bond / love being forged between two humans. Anyway, it's possible to be ethical AND get pleasure. For example, just like you can buy free trade chocolate, it's also possible to have sex with someone that's attractive and NOT a total asshole. Hard fact is, women just don't care. They want hot sex, but they don't want to put in the effort to filter the good men from the bad'uns. End result? They get fucked, and they get chucked.

[the_rake]

'We should not demand it in others, but rather demand it from ourselves. '

Sure, but when you have it in yourself, it's perfectly reasonable to expect people treat you with the minimum level of empathy required for civil human interaction to happen. In fact this goes even if you're not perfectly kind or compassionate but treat people with this bare minimum. Beyond that, I can agree that, yes - true kindness is it's own reward.

So basically,

'But empathy and compassion should be a requirement only up to the point where it allows a healthy relationship.'

This is where we have a dilemma in modern society. Because, no - not all contemporary relationships have this minimum requirement.

i4.mirror.co.uk/.../rihanna__426042638.jpg

And a lot of women are sexually rewarding these kinds of men in our society, it seems, contributing to the toxicity that a new generation of assholic thugs have to bring.

[Ananon]

Although typing this out makes it feel like bragging, I'd like to think I'm a good person.
I genuinely enjoy giving more than taking in general, take pleasure from being able to be a positive presence in other people's lives. If I am to believe people around me, I cut myself short oftentimes; I see my genuine empathy as average, much like almost everything about myself if not slightly below. (Saves giving people too high expectations of me, which is nice.)

That said, even though I now live on my own and have improved a lot in the past few years, am actually content with who I am, am happy with my morals and values (live and let live, and all that), and enjoy my own presence and things I do, I can't see myself as relationship material due to a failed relationship over 5 years ago.
Realistically it was not just me but both of us that had issues, and I changed tremendously for the better since, but I haven't had any opportunity to develop myself romantically nor sexually since.

[Ananon]

I have no idea how I'd be able to develop on those fronts without an actual relationship ( any suggestions?), and I can't consider myself relationship material until I have sufficiently enough. Severe lack of sexual experience is also detrimental as it's expected of the man to have plenty of experience already; it's rare a man is a dead fish in bed, while it's surprisngly common with women; part of submissive preference and all.
As such, I don't pursue any romance at all, am completely passive. I am fully aware that as a man, this is detrimental as one is supposed to take almost all initiative, take the lead, etc. I'm fully aware it's my own "fault" though, no blame or resentment towards women for it at all.
If I'll ever try to pursue anything, I'll acept the reduced odds instead of becoming a dick; I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror otherwise, and nobody is worth that.
Friends etc seem to enjoy my presence without me having to change, so I'll stick with that for now.

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much for writing a Take that isn't another mindless rant against nice guys, and glorifying "bad boys" as the rightful lords and masters of men. I can't stand that shit, so many people these days seem to get caught up in it. I want to ask the people who think "bad boys" are where it's at, what else I should have done? Should I have been a bully? Should I have gotten detentions all the time? Should I have done more drugs, gone to juvie, gone to jail? Stolen and vandalized stuff? Should I have been stupid and shallow, am I just too smart for my own good? Should I have thrown my family's kindness back in their faces and given them heart attacks even though I came from a stable home that only ever tried to help me? Why is it so "cool" to be a hyper-aggressive, domineering asshole? I can't stand those guys. I never want to be like them. In fact, I want to get a girl as a nice guy, to prove that nice can still beat "bad".

It's so hard sometimes. I don't think I am punching above my weight. It's definitely not that I'm going for women that I can't talk to at all, and like them only for looks. I have gone for women who share my interests and seem to have enjoyed talking with me, and I enjoyed talking with them. I could see myself having a good time with them. But I don't know how I can show women that I am confident and interesting, because I just don't have any stories about doing drugs or committing crimes or joining a gang. Women seem to go wild for that bullshit but I just don't have it and don't want to. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone or with someone who doesn't inspire me. I wish I knew how to cause women to feel those feelings of excitement but without being a n'er-do-well.

"... ensure that you are working on your image, interests, attractiveness as well so that you are not relying on your niceness alone."

^Yes, I definitely agree with that. I've fallen into that trap a lot. I know I'm not working on my interests, image, and attractiveness enough, leaving niceness as my strongest suit. I hadn't been working on my interests due to self-doubt and fear that I just didn't have any talent. It's definitely held me back.

[Rawrzz]

Did Jenna say that all supposed nice guys are swinging for the fences? Or did she say that when she hears about nice guys whining about it, the guys are swinging for the fences?

Honestly. You're strawmanning the entire fuck out of her argument. Your last three points on swinging for the fences were not used as absolute generalizations by Jenna. It was used as a metaphor. "If you have nothing in common with someone, then you need to go find someone you have things in common with."

I'll say this. The last time I posted this video to some whiny guy saying nice guys finish last, he replied, "Your username is stupid, so I'm not going to read what you wrote." Naturally, "You're really not that fucking nice." Point for Jenna. Maybe it was you.

So... Basically, what I hear you saying is that you're pissy because you're a 10, and you get outplayed by a 6 or a 7. Shouldn't you be pissy at the guys at a lower level than you that have more game than you do--and how, exactly, do you know that these guys are assholes and that the women are going for assholes? Ultimately, it's her decision. If someone clicks, they click. You can be all pissy about it if you want to, or you can go look for someone you click with.

Honestly, what I would be more concerned about is female social value vs. male social value. Females are worth a lot more than a man at the same level. Females have the innate biological value + any social value, while males only have social value that must be earned through occupation and achievement. This is what leads to 10s only finding 6s or 7s, and the general woman's inflated sense of self-value leading them to having even higher standards. As the okcupid statistics showing that women rated 80% of men as unattractive shows.

If you ask me, Jenna's assertion that nice guys swing for the fences is more justifiable than your assertion that women go for 6s and 7s that treat them like shit over the perfect 10s (10s like you, no doubt).

Jenna did, in fact, clarify that she was speaking from her own personal belief. In addition, she really did identify that not all guys are swinging for the fences. Are you speaking from belief? Or are you speaking factually?

Really. Strawman out the ass. Not to mention you equated comments on her video with her own perspective. -.-;;

You may as well have made a mytake saying "I really want some pussy, but no one will give me some, and I'm so great, too. :("

[the_rake]

'Did Jenna say that all supposed nice guys are swinging for the fences? Or did she say that when she hears about nice guys whining about it, the guys are swinging for the fences?'

She said

'I'd say 90% of the time guys say [nice guys finish last], it's about some reeeeally hot girl... my problem here, my friend is, you're f**king swinging for the fences'

So yeah, a lot of generalisations here. Also, isn't JM pulling a strawman out her ass when she says this about guys who say 'nice guys finish last'? She's assuming it's because they're chasing some super hot girl.

'Your last three points on swinging for the fences were not used as absolute generalizations by Jenna. It was used as a metaphor'

Tbh, just her patronising demeanour alone when she says things like this, or talks about Angelina Jolie sucking Brad Pitt's dick, is pretty vile.

[the_rake]

'what I hear you saying is that you're pissy because you're a 10'

Dude, in no world do I think I'm a ten or that I deserve to be dating tens for that matter, now. Seriously, what's with all the strawmen?

'do you know that these guys are assholes and that the women are going for assholes? '

Not every successful guy is an asshole and not every woman only goes for assholes. Still, you can't deny it's out there.

'women go for 6s and 7s'

Actually you read any of my other posts and you will see that actually I think women are quite hypergamous (and polygynous). This means they typically date way ABOVE their league. In this post, I'm also arguing that attractive men with sociopathic tendencies will be preferred over attractive men without.

'Jenna did, in fact, clarify that she was speaking from her own personal belief.'

Then maybe she shouldn't have such an obnoxious attitude and make such inflammatory statements.

[the_rake]

'Not to mention you equated comments on her video with her own perspective.'

Nope, hence why I distinguished the two.

'You may as well have made a mytake saying "I really want some pussy, but no one will give me some, and I'm so great, too. :("'

And how would you know all of this, smart arse?

(By the way straw man, ad hom, generalisation, etc., etc.)

[nymous1234]

But if a 'hot' girl likes an asshole thats on her and get over it. People will forever make their own decisions no matter how toxic the decisions may be. If anything we should as a society be raising better emotionally expressive non-asshole men (and more confident secure non-superficial women for that matter).

Also that is life and while a very attractive girl may be a nice person she may not be attracted to a guy who is a nice guy by personality or a nice guy by looks and personality and guess what that is her choice and maybe she will learn a lesson as we all have to, men included, when it comes to making decisions with regards to the opposite sex.

But I agree with her video though she makes a lot of good points, such as it is not easy finding someone who suits you and if it was you wouldn't learn anything like i said above.
Also when she refers to nice guys she is not referring to good men who are not dominant etc but she refers to those men who are blameless and are in fact not nice people at all as a good stable woman does want a good guy and will not break up with a guy for being too nice ever.
A girl who does this does not actually like that guy, has issues or is not stable or mature and that is the simple truth.

[the_rake]

'People will forever make their own decisions no matter how toxic the decisions may be.'

Right. So as they are entitled to their own decisions (assuming this is a western / liberal democratic context we're discussing here), the only thing we can do is objectively point out how toxic these decisions are - for the women, the men that bear the brunt of this toxicity, and society at large. That's why it's important to disregard moral notions of what is 'owed' by whom to who in favour of a consequentialist attitude.

' it is not easy finding someone who suits you and if it was you wouldn't learn anything like i said above. '

Very true, this is why men on the whole will go through more of a journey of spiritual and philosophical self-development that involves overcoming both fear (approach anxiety) and the pain of rejection.

[the_rake]

'Also when she refers to nice guys she is not referring to good men who are not dominant etc but she refers to those men who are blameless and are in fact not nice people'

If that's the case, I would argue that a more thorough distinction needs to be made in order to avoid confusion.

[Bandit74]

NiceNess really isn't nessesary... well it depends on goals. If a guy just wants to get easy no strings attached sex with lots of women then niceness doesn't really matter. As long as you're attractive and exciting you'll get sex regardless of whether or not you're nice. In fact in might even help if you're NOT nice.

Numerous times on this site if seen girls say that if they meet a guy who is attractive but not boyfriend material they are more likely to sleep with him right away because they don't want anything long term and don't care if he respects her, however when they meet a guy who does have the traits she's looking for in a boyfriend then she'll take things slow and have him wait longer for sex"

Funny thing is they still often develop feelings for the guys they have flings with even if they didn't initially intend to.

Anyways moral of the story is if you want easy sex with lots of girls, without having to wait or take them on dates then it's in your best interest to NOT be perceived as relationship material.

[the_rake]

' If a guy just wants to get easy no strings attached sex with lots of women then niceness doesn't really matter.'

I understand this. I'm saying that it should* matter. Not to come across as someone that sounds entitled - because it's perfectly acceptable that women have standards regarding confidence, attractiveness, etc. - but women should not be disregarding ethics: they should pay attention to more than just raw sex appeal. That's why I say it's necessary.

*this is a moral judgement, but I understand that this is a subjective view: women should* be free to disregard this opinion and do what they want (*in the interests of liberal democracy). I just don't empathise with this machiavellian mating strategy and I think lots of men feel the same way. Also, I think it has a negative impact on society because it means the wrong type of men are successful.

[Bandit74]

I agree with what you've said, but regardless of whether or not it "should" matter, in many cases it doesn't, at least not until later.

It only starts to matter when they want the stable guy to settle down, buy a house and raise kids with. Being nice doesn't matter when it comes to being the guy they are excited to have sex with, or the guy they want to try out their fantasies with. It only matters when they want sacrifices and responsibilities.

[the_rake]

'however when they meet a guy who does have the traits she's looking for in a boyfriend then she'll take things slow and have him wait longer for sex"'

yep, but this is an extremely flawed philosophy because lots of guys will not feel like they're getting an especially good bargain. I talk about this phenomena in more detail in my new take:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24140-why-men-are-sometimes-justified-in-avoiding-monogamy

'For one thing, it's plain hypocrisy: women can sleep with whomever they want to ("go feminism!") while men are demonised for owning their sexual desires and not wanting to be with a partner who denies them this ("you can't have your cake and eat it... why would anyone want their cake if they couldn't eat it anyway"). Maybe more men would put up with the fact their dates were not promiscuous if their long-term partners weren't either. But as it stands, women typically demand the double standard of being 'treated like a princess and f**ked like a slut'.'

[the_rake]

'Funny thing is they still often develop feelings for the guys they have flings with even if they didn't initially intend to.'

Yep, and this leads to a lot of abusive relationships (both emotionally and physically), hence why I say that it is not a dating strategy that's conducive to a healthy society. The phenomena is exacerbated when children are involved and, in the case of boys, grow up to be like their fathers.

'if you want easy sex with lots of girls, without having to wait or take them on dates then it's in your best interest to NOT be perceived as relationship material.'

Right, and this means you have to demonstrate undesirable personality traits to get what you want, hence it's a machiavellian dating strategy. Genuine niceness is not rewarded.

[the_rake]

'I agree with what you've said, but regardless of whether or not it "should" matter, in many cases it doesn't, at least not until later.'

Agreed, ethics don't count for much when it comes to the dating game. But as a society we can pass judgement on people that adopt these dating practices / mating strategies.

'It only starts to matter when they want the stable guy to settle down, buy a house and raise kids with.'

Right. And it makes a lot of sense that many men are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with these circumstances. Especially when the woman is a lot more sexually experienced then they were to begin with.

[Bandit74]

"Right. And it makes a lot of sense that many men are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with these circumstances. Especially when the woman is a lot more sexually experienced then they were to begin with."

Yeah, women often hookup and "explore their sexuality" with guys who have high partner counts, then for relationships women go for more stable reliable guys. The relationship are often less physically attractive than the guys she hooked up with and these guys are often less sexually experienced than the guys she hooked up with. Furthermore they are often less experienced than the girl is, but she will lie to hide this reality.

[ras144]

Getting really tired of the Nice Guy topic, but here’s my problem with your Take:

"Rather, a lot of men are complaining because not only are they nice, but they also ARE attractive, they do work out, they do have cool and fascinating interests.”
BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. Just because Kanye could marry Kim, doesn’t mean I could marry Kanye. Just because you think you’re the perfect doesn’t mean I think you’re the perfect boyfriend FOR ME. Get what I’m saying? Just because you have "cool and fascinating interests” (which is subjective) doesn’t we share those same interests.

"women are getting with thickos and inbred genetically stunted lowlifes because these are the same guys that know how to treat women like dirt”
How is that different when guys fall in love with bitchy mentally unstable women, women who place themselves in a lot of drama, and women who constantly cheats and lie about the baby being his? Oh, IT’S NOT! So stop acting like only women do stupid things, because men have proven to be just as stupid.

"Sometimes you just have to give people a chance to show you who they really are before you see their true traits”
We do and our opinions rarely change. I give a lot of boring guys a chance and they end up being as boring as I thought they would be.

" In a competitive and individualistic world where society puts pressure on men to be dominant and aggressive initiators,”
JUST. BE. LIKABLE. Not every woman has the same standards. Just like not every guy likes the same type of girl.

[the_rake]

Ok, you have some good points, for example,

'BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.'

Very true. But in this article, I'm talking about men that meet up to social expectations and apart from their niceness are attractive to women in other ways. Hell, the niceness isn't even unattractive per se: it's more of a logistical thing. Basically, women will go for the first caveman to sweep her off her feet and take her back to his cave. Because it's less effort for them. It kind of reminds me of a scene from the film Holes, after a man climbed a mountain every day for a year to grow a pig large enough to secure a bride from her father:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1bttQ-MhM0

Basically, it's not even a question of moral obligation - who they ought to get with (because I would have told her to marry Igor too). What these women do is just objectively stupid.

'How is that different when guys fall in love with bitchy mentally unstable women, '

Take note: it's normally the assholes - those manipulative and aggressive men that I'm

[the_rake]

describing - who get with bitchy or otherwise emotionally insecure women. And yes, their decision making is socially toxic, as I highlighted in the article (more assholes getting laid = more abusive relationships, more unhappy women and more children grown into this environment to grow up and be assholes / emotionally insecure women themselves).

'JUST. BE. LIKABLE.'

If we're honest with ourselves, this isn't enough - it misses the mark as much as the 'just be yourself' or 'be confident' advice does. A man has to work on his attractive qualities also. And in a world where the manipulative or aggressive men push to the front of the cue, he will also have to figure out how to out maneuver them (tact) and save his place in the cue (assertiveness).

[ras144]

This is going back to what Jeanna and I have said: Unless you're 100% sure those you like those types, STOP GOING AFTER STUPID GIRLS.
This would save a lot of guys pain and time if they stop going after girls who give in to primal instincts (because it shows they’re not intelligent enough to fight them).
If your crush wants to be a dumbass and date abusive buff guys, LET HER BE A DUMBASS AND FIND SOMEONE SMARTER. I don’t see the issue at all.

"If we're honest with ourselves, this isn't enough”
Yes it is.

"A man has to work on his attractive qualities also.”
DUH!
BEING LIKABLE TAKES EFFORT. Generally, if a (mentally stable) girl doesn’t think you’re a positive influence in her life, why should she want you in her life? The same thing applies to friendships, if a friend isn’t making life better for you (physically or emotionally), why are you friends with that person?

[ras144]

"And in a world where the manipulative or aggressive men push to the front of the cue,”
No one wants to be with someone who wallows in their self-pity and won’t make an effort to better themselves. The people that history considers heroes are the ones who strive to do good in a shitty world, not those who bitch and moan about it.

In conclusion, when you try to be the best person you can be, people will be naturally be drawn to you. If appearance isn't important to you, then find a girl/guy who doesn't find appearances to be important.

[the_rake]

'STOP GOING AFTER STUPID GIRLS.'

Easy to say until you realise how many stupid girls are out there, and just how big a pile of dung you have to sift your way through before you find that golden nugget.

'If your crush wants to be a dumbass and date abusive buff guys, LET HER BE A DUMBASS AND FIND SOMEONE SMARTER.'

Women can do that. I'm just pointing out the simple fact they're the majority, not the minority - and when they find worthwhile men that they suddenly decide they DO want to settle down with, their past is going to stain the relationship, which sucks for the worthwhile men seriously short on their options in a world of hypergamous polygyny.

'Yes it is.'

Nope, you have to be likeable/nice AND attractive. And this is perfectly reasonable, I've never stated otherwise.

[the_rake]

'DUH! BEING LIKABLE TAKES EFFORT.'

I was just emphasising the basic point of my article: 'niceness might not be sufficient but it is necessary'.

'No one wants to be with someone who wallows in their self-pity and won’t make an effort to better themselves.'

Sure, it's just there's guys that go about self-improvement & dating in a reasonable and civic way. Then there's guys that go about these things in a manner that's not so reasonable or civic, but they get all the attention because they jumped ahead of the cue.

'The people that history considers heroes are the ones who strive to do good in a shitty world, not those who bitch and moan about it.'

Then there's the guys who try to change things round so more people can be heroes.

[ras144]

"Easy to say until you realise how many stupid girls are out there"
Oh boo hoo, try being a girl who usually finds guys that just want to hump and dump you. That's what happens when you're 20-29 years old: Most people are dumb and horny. So you either tolerate the search or stop dating all together.

"I'm just pointing out the simple fact they're the majority, not the minority "
Well, finding some ONE person out 7 billion to have a relationship with will always be a minority. So unless you're trying to have a harem, what is there to complain about?
Also, the exact same thing could be said about men. Too many guys think with their dicks until their 30's when the testerone levels out.

The rest of your stuff I'm okay with.

[the_rake]

'Oh boo hoo, try being a girl who usually finds guys that just want to hump and dump you.'

Try being a guy in his 30s being told to settle down / be grateful for a girl that's already fucked around tenfold what he has after being sexually starved in his 20s in spite of general attractiveness and (inner) confidence.

'Well, finding some ONE person out 7 billion to have a relationship with will always be a minority. '

Well, that's the point it doesn't have to be just ONE person that you're compatible with so in a reasonable world, things are not going to be anywhere near as difficult. But we don't live in a reasonable world and if you're a good man, you can't expect to find a lot of compatible women out there, because there just aren't that many good women out there in this day and age.

'Too many guys think with their dicks until their 30's when the testerone levels out.'

Probably trying to get some sexual experience in before they wind up settling down with some blowbang girl.

[ras144]

"Try being a guy in his 30s being told to settle down / be grateful for a girl that's already fucked around tenfold what he has after being sexually starved in his 20s in spite of general attractiveness and (inner) confidence."
Sounds more like: Slut-shaming, having unrealistic standard, and a double standard.
If you're not going to be with a girl just because she's sexually active, then the problem is you, not her.
If you're looking for a pure virgin, then you better try going to anime conventions and bible camp.
Why is a woman's virginity so important to you? I think this is also a problem with Nice Guys, you guys have this Madonna-Whore complex and that's not normal to have in this modern society.
Guys are ENCOURAGED to be sluts in this day and age, but you don't see me complaining about their sexual activities.
PEOPLE OF BOTH GENDERS are expected to lower standards because its assumed they had unrealistic standards to begin with.

[ras144]

Oh and someone perfectly described another problem with nice guys and good men: They're too old-fashion.
"5. HE WISHES IT WERE 1950.
He thinks men were chivalrous and polite back in the day, lament that he was born in the wrong era and attempt to embody their style. Unfortunately he also embodies their rampant misogyny and systematic sexism."

[Anonymous]

Haven't watched the video, but she sounds like an idiot if she really believes that. A guy complaining that women don't go for guys like himself doesn't prove "that you're a condescending asshole who is only nice because he wants girls to be with him". Most of the time it just proves that you are a human being that is in pain for being rejected.

Often this is made worse by all the bad advice guys get, confusing them as to why women don't like them. This can be extremely frustrating for guys that on paper should have all the traits women claim they want in a man. Women rarely want to admit to desiring traits that are seen as shallow in our society. Instead guys get horrible advice like "be yourself, don't change, women don't care about looks, all women want is a guy that will treat her well" which tells the guy not to improve or make much needed changes to his life.

Even disagreeing with a woman gets a guy accused of being an asshole, which further confuses young men into thinking their only choices are to act like doormats, or assholes, with no room in between to become strong men that stand up for themselves.

For the most part, "nice guys" are just socially awkward guys that have been given bad advice. They aren't some group of evil men that they are being made out to be. This woman does a great job explaining of explaining why these nice guys are getting so much hate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

[the_rake]

'Women rarely want to admit to desiring traits that are seen as shallow in our society.'

Yep, my metaphor for comparing men to prosecutors in a case of public law in the discussion with KENKONG definitely applies here. Essentially men are going to be demonised by society as the bad guys because they are the ones initiating sexual and romantic attraction. Women get to play all kinds of cards and argue things like,

"well, this man was just a creep, that's why I rejected him"
"men are only interested in looks, there's nothing shallow or artificial about my standards at all"

Interesting video by the way, I will watch it all when I have more time.

[ManuelMarquez]

Anonymous, what is the title of the video you just posted?

[Opinion Owner]

@ManuelMarquez Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM
karen straughan

[KENKONG]

Women use the argument to demonize nice guy by saying "This guy is faking it. He's not really nice. He's just doing it to get sex out of me"..

The reason women come to this conclusion is because:

1) A lot of them are fake and nice to each other. So when they see a guy being genuinly nice to them they come to conclusion that he must be falling same thought pattern as women. (I. E. DOING IT BECAUSE HE WANTS SOMETHING).

Women love to play the victim. Women projecting blame of nice guy being some deviant fiend who tries to trick them into have sex with them by being nice just further creates a role reversal where women don't own up to their own decision but rather make them out to be a poor victim whose being tricked/pressured by the nice guy into having sex with her.

[KENKONG]

The second part is no different than creep shaming (male version to slut shamming) where rather than admitting you are turned off by a guy's advances because he was not attractive enough. Women place an attack on his character "Personality" as the reason for them turning him down.

[the_rake]

Agreed on many levels.

Basically, women have all the psychological tricks and maneuvers completely figured out, which allows them to paint themselves as innocent flowers and men as predatory wolves. If we think about this for a second, it makes complete sense: in a court of law, there is always more public sympathy for the defense than the prosecution. Why? Because prosecution are trying to destroy a man's reputation, his life and his freedom. We often forget that the true victims are the ones the prosecution are trying to protect.

Similarly, because men are the initiators of both sex and romance, we see them in the same light that society might see a prosecutor: dominant, aggressive and victimising. We forget that initiation is very much a necessary evil: somebody needs to do this otherwise their would be no sex, no marriage, no reproduction and no happy families.

[Aeliuz]

The bashing of nice guys annoys me to no end. Not because I feel I deserve all the hot women. But because it seems like everyone thinks that being a 'nice guy' is just a way to get in women's pants. It seems it's a justification women use to not feel bad going for the bad boys instead of a nice guy. I really really dislike being grouped with people just using being "nice" as a strategy to get laid. People also say that being nice is expected, but they confuse being nice with being polite. Being nice is a character trait, caring for other people, having good intentions, being polite refers to the behaviour when interacting with others, saying 'thank you', apologizing, etc.
If women don't want to date nice guys, that's fine. But at least be honest about why. Don't say it's because they only want sex, as a reward for being nice. It's because they are boring and/or unattractive.

[the_rake]

' it seems like everyone thinks that being a 'nice guy' is just a way to get in women's pants. '

yep, this is indeed a common misconception. also, there's nothing wrong with going about dating in a manner that's nice / civil - not everyone that does it is manipulative, and it would be much better if (attractive) men doing this were getting laid rather than men being sexually rewarded for being assholes.

[VRosetano]

This is why i've given up. I've gone through the "nice guy" phase and i hated it. I started looking back at what went wrong after my first breakup and noticed the trend over and over again. Most of the problem was myself and the other fraction was the type of women i was trying to be with.

This is why i've decided to just quit; rather focus on making myself a happier person and try to help others out. I can't be dragged back in when the last bit of my trust has been taken away and my heart has been obliterated into thin grains.

[the_rake]

Sorry to hear that man.

[Possible_Mate]

i went for the nice guy :), no regrets. i have observed this behavior in other girls and it does confuse me. i was reading the comments below about how girls say one thing and expect another and that seems pretty true for some chicks. i feel like once they get older though their going to look back and realize how stupid they are. that being said, i don't think most relationships made on the fly work out that well.

[the_rake]

'i went for the nice guy , no regrets.'

Awesome.

' i feel like once they get older though their going to look back and realize how stupid they are.'

I think most of us are going to feel like that, hah.

[Possible_Mate]

:P probably

[JRICHARDS1996]

The #1 thing that stands out to me is her generalization that nice guys usually bring nothing else to the table. I think that is vastly incorrect given that most nice guys I know, including myself, usually bring in the highest grades in college and thus will probably be more successful down the line. Though she does have a bit of a point that many nice guys can adopt a very pessimistic and frankly jerk-like attitude due to their own ineptness with women, feeling somewhat entitled due to their niceness. The most important thing to remember when dating is to be realistic. Find someone within your own league. If you are not ridiculously amazing then you probably shouldn't pursue someone who is. And frankly that doesn't bother me--usually the super attractive girls are the most boring and dull, while the average are somewhat more interesting.

[the_rake]

'The #1 thing that stands out to me is her generalization that nice guys usually bring nothing else to the table.'

Yep, this is the essence of the mytake and something that I find highly bothering also. I wish I could say that I stay perfectly cool and rational but that would be an outright lie. However, it seems like the only way to deconstruct such an inflammatory stance by such an arrogant individual is to stay VERY patient, lol.

'Though she does have a bit of a point that many nice guys can adopt a very pessimistic and frankly jerk-like attitude due to their own ineptness with women, feeling somewhat entitled due to their niceness. '

Right, so I would always say to men "be 'nice' but date within your own league and if you don't find these women attractive, BECOME more attractive.'

The only problem with this, of course is that women rarely date within their own league exclusively. This is why men have got a LOT of work cut out for them. 'Nice' men even more so.

Good comment.

[TheSkaFish]

"If you are not ridiculously amazing then you probably shouldn't pursue someone who is."

That's what kills me about it all. The women that I found ridiculously amazing, intelligent, creative, passionate, beautiful, interesting, sweet and alive wound up with guys who were not at all. Just your typical tough-guy drunks and stoners. All they had was their "bad boy" image and attitude.

[angelling]

I like this take. I went for the nice guy. He really was genuinely nice and lovely. I have also experienced the pushy, entitled "nice guy" who complained because I didn't want to date him though he claimed he had done "everything I wanted". They were both nice but one was nice because that was just how he was and the other was nice in hopes of getting a girl and that niceness quickly went out the window if he didn't get what he felt he deserved.

[the_rake]

Yea, basically I'm not going to deny that the other kind of 'nice' guy exists... because he does. Anyway,

'I went for the nice guy. He really was genuinely nice and lovely.'

Good for you.

[Anonymous]

There are nice guys out there, but the ones in the YT comments are referring to another set of men. They also exist, where they believe they are nice to a woman and therefore deserve their affection or something. I have witnessed this first hand once and it quickly made me change my mind about him.

The guy in your pic looks somewhat similar to a guy I dated a few times, and you are correct... he was handsome, respectful and nice! Being respectful and showing kindness goes a long way with me and I show the same towards him (and other people).

[the_rake]

' Being respectful and showing kindness goes a long way with me and I show the same towards him '

It's good that you are like this. However, a lot of women are not.

[Opinion Owner]

Some are, some aren't. It goes for both genders I have encountered.

[the_rake]

The reference was about hypergamous & polygynous practices in women. This isn't really something that you see in men (by and large).

Basically the shark (aggressive & dominant attractive man) is going to get a lot more fish (women) than the dolphin (confident but more subdued / empathetic attractive man). This is not good for society or women (more sharks will abuse their women and in turn raise more sharks that will cause damage).

[KENKONG]

@myTake Owner Women do not give a fuck about this until it starts affecting their commitment/settle down time period.

[ras144]

@KENKONG The exact same thing could be said about guys. Dumb, Smart, Rich, poor, whatever, most aren't trying to find a wife in their 20's. They're find fuck buddies and easy-lays. Of course, to Nice Guys, it's alright when men slut it up, but can't do that because they're not suppose to have brains or a life.

[ras144]

@KENKONG but women can't do that because they're not suppose to have brains or a life.

[the_rake]

@ras144 'Dumb, Smart, Rich, poor, whatever, most aren't trying to find a wife in their 20's. They're find fuck buddies and easy-lays.'

See my mytake about sex and monogamy:

Basically, it's a double standard when otherwise promiscuous women are demanding their new partners 'wait for sex' just because they suddenly deem him 'relationship material'. Men are justified at balking at the hypocrisy of such an arrangement, especially when they are not very sexually experienced themselves (this goes for a majority of men in a world where women are both hypergamous and polygynous).

[the_rake]

here's the link:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24140-why-men-are-sometimes-justified-in-avoiding-monogamy

[BackInGame]

nice guy = just some ugly male trying to compensate for lack of looks. It's not the niceness that's the problem, but the ugliness.

niceness = compensation for ugliness, which is in reality very counterproductive. Being nice is feminine trait and thus not manly. If personality compensation could work, that would be by showing agressions, cockyness, control, dominance, toughness and other dominant caveman behaviour.

But in reality, only looks compensation I know for is wealth, money and high social status.

[the_rake]

'just some ugly male trying to compensate for lack of looks.'

dude, not all nice guys are ugly.

[rcmp1234]

I've actually been on both sides of the coin, i. e. been both the nice guy and asshole before and from my experience girls liked me more when I was the asshole. I actually had a few girls called me an asshole yet at the same time couldnt help but fall for me. So I guess being an asshole does actually help. I did break a lot of hearts by being a jerk though, but better them hurt than me lol.

[the_rake]

'better them hurt than me lol.'

Think I can relate to that.

[Anonymous]

aaagghhhh guys, it's not hard. chicks like nice guys. if you're nice & CONFIDENT, you will get a chick (unless you're totally socially retarded). the kinda "nice" we don't like is the straight off soppy, sucky-up, push-over "nice" we get from guys we don't know.
they want something - we can smell desperation. they aren't just genuinely "nice" people.

it's not complicated. this whole "chicks don't like nice guys" thing was obviously invented by some lonely, desperate guys who blame the fact they can't get women on us not likely "nice" guys - probably because that's a lot easier than picking out your own flaws & working on them to improve yourself. who doesn't like nice people?

[the_rake]

' if you're nice & CONFIDENT, you will get a chick '

this is my point: that's not necessarily the case. lots of nice men who are attractive in other ways (confidence included) but unsuccessful because they don't push in front of the cue to get what they want. in fact, genuinely nice men are a lot MORE confident than these assholes that get what they want through manipulation and aggressive tactics. we as a society don't need the latter men being sexually rewarded and passing on their faulty genes, thank you very much.

[ConsultantIsBack]

Being nice is good
"nice guy" as a phrase, in my opinion, is characterized as a pushover, weak, submissive guy. Which is great if thats her type, but most.. nevermind, ALL, women I date are into dominant high testosterone guys.

[the_rake]

yep, nice guys can be dominant as well. I have no problem with dominant / alpha male types being successful if they are reasonably nice people. it's when nice guys that have otherwise attractive qualities are being rejected in favour of equally or lesser attractive men just because they got ahead of them in the cue.

[ConsultantIsBack]

I avoid the "alpha" word. Gaggers freak out over it lol, literally, start having seizures and talking about wolves lol.

[the_rake]

yeah, when people start talking about 'thos alpha/asshole types', it's too much effort to correct them so I just concede the rest of their point.

[the_rake]

it's probably easier to talk about high status men or dominant men to avoid confusion.

[ConsultantIsBack]

Lol yeah. Anyone who has spent any time in a professional career, knows there is a new-age alpha concept alive and well.

Not to mention anyone who has attempted/is dating 7.5's/10 and up 👍

Again, GREAT TAKE brother. Love your stuff, as always.

[ConsultantIsBack]

reply to ur last comment, EXACTLY!
they just freak out over the word a**** lol

[the_rake]

thanks man, I try my best to talk about this touchy subject material without falling into the trap of being misogynistic or resentful / whatever. I know it's not a fair game, but I do what I can to stay in it and be a winner instead of a loser. And at the end of the day, the challenge is good.

[ConsultantIsBack]

its not easy on gag lol, people bitch about literally nothing, so good job!

[the_rake]

@ConsultantIsBack

Thanks again. Not everyone is a massive fan of my takes so it's always really good to know someone appreciates them.

[TheSkaFish]

It's hard to be a confident, dominant, high testosterone guy when you don't hold a lot of the good cards in your hand, though. And when you don't know how or if anything you can possibly do will give you those cards. I can't act sure of the outcome, when I'm not sure of the outcome because life has shown me not to get cocky. This has been my problem. I've never been confident because I've never been a natural, a superstar, a gifted, talented person. As a result my luck with women has been fucked, to say the least.

To me a nice guy is just that - a guy who is nice. I think the misconception of nice guys as weak is the problem these days - women think the only way a guy can be exciting is if he's a Jersey Shore wannabe, or Snake Jailbird from the Simpsons. I wish I could figure out a way to show girls that just cause I'm not a douche or a criminal doesn't mean I can't be exciting and interesting too.

[ConsultantIsBack]

@TheSkaFish I agree with your message, but thinking you need to be a douche or criminal is misguided to say the last, in my opinion.

[TheSkaFish]

Maybe so. That part about douches and criminals was more from my own personal experience than with every guy across the board though. All of the girls I wanted wound up with scum like that, and these were smart, creative, sweet girls too, that I could talk to fairly well.

I just wish that "bad" wasn't seen as "cool" though. Or that there was some surefire way to get around it. But it's been that way since grade school, and due to pop culture, women in particular have this idea that delinquents are exciting and that non-tough guy, law-abiding citizens are a bunch of nancy-boys. That makes things not so great for those of us who are, well, nice. But being friendly has always been natural to me, and being a delinquent never appealed to me and would have cost me everything. It always seemed wrong.

I'd like to find a way to be successful and exciting but minus the "alpha" part, if that makes sense. To me an alpha would be like The Situation or a Hell's Angels member. Its not for me.

[sp33d]

This problem's origin is from the Hollywood chick/guy/teen flicks, what ever you want to call them that makes it look like a guy needs to be some buff, overly confident, womanizerish prick and NOT a.. so called nice guy.

That's not the real world and this Marbles girl is naive.

[Anonymous]

That video is so useless. By the way, when girls say a nice guy starts showing his true colors, those true colors are just reactions to the bullshit those girls put those nice guys through. Girls, stop making me feel guilty for problems that began when you chose assholes over me. If you want a genuine, nice guy, you have to be worthy. I'm only nice to people who deserve it.

Currently, God has chosen me to destroy this planet. Mankind's corruption spreads no further. There's no point in being benevolent for humanity at it's current state. Once I destroy all malevolent beings on this planet, I will create a new era of benevolence on this planet. This is by far the most corrupt planet in the multiverse. I've entered this planet to cleanse it.

[the_rake]

yep, women hooking up to these men with sociopathic tendencies have all kind of toxic effects and social backlash. reading through the comments on most of my recent takes though, most of the GaG girls have not taken much notice of my recommendations. they are just looking for excuses to make irresponsible decisions. they don't care if they are sexually rewarding manipulative or aggressive traits in men, and they have little regard for the social ills that this is creating. if you dare to point this out objectively, they will just say something like "nice guys are not entitled to sex" which misses the point entirely. nobody is saying anybody is owed anything. what I'm saying is that the behaviour of some women is quite frankly disgusting and contributing to all kinds of debilitating consequences.

[Opinion Owner]

This planet has by far the worst class of sentient beings in the multiverse. This planet is a cosmic shame. Pathetic humans. This planet must be purged.