The bad boy: there is something totally irresistible about this kind of man. Not only is he good looking but his attractive pull goes much deeper than that - from the outside bravado, chiselled jawline and rugged physique to the inside. He might not be rich or drive a fast car, he might not even have the aforementioned physical qualities but there is a much deeper allure because he believes in himself. In short what drives women so crazy is his confidence.
Men (not all men, but a lot of men) are so quick to judge women by their looks and feminine appearance over and above all else that they do not choose a good sturdy partner - someone that will help raise kids and make a sound contribution to their household (financially and domestically). It is only natural to call these men shallow, short-term minded and lots of other things. Women on the other hand tend to be much smarter, not only in the short-term about who is going to pass on what genes exactly, but also in the long-run - who is going to show commitment and be a good father and husband. So this leads most of us to the conclusion that it is a good thing that women are so internally focussed. Men are shallow and judgmental about appearance, while women looks at the factors that really make a man a man.
But what are these factors? Charisma, survival, initiative, masculinity just to name a few. 'Confidence' is very hard to define, it does not have a shape or tangible quality, and it is in fact composed of many other qualities that can change and are themselves difficult to pinpoint or explain what is meant by it. Anyone that has ever suffered a low in their self-esteem just to be reminded of that good old nugget of societal wisdom, "don't worry! just be confident and everything will be a-ok!", knows that this is simplistic advice that does not always make up for a deficiency in other essential qualities. Not only that, but strictly speaking such advice does not always mean anything.
When it comes to the 'confidence' that a woman is attracted to in a man, it's safe to say that this is neither a good thing or a bad thing. That's because confident people have historically been both good and evil. Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandella - all confident people, all altruists that helped further their cause of equality and improve the condition of the human population. But then there is the other side of the coin - men like Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet who did the reverse of anything 'good' or 'compassionate'.
So when a woman says she likes 'confidence' in a man, we immediately have to wonder what that 'confidence' is composed of and what OTHER attributes that man has that are so desirable. Just because she says she is looking for something deeper and more meaningful, it doesn't necessarily make her any better than these shallow hordes of men that are gushing at the mouths over hot women with nice bodies.
Overlooked in all this is the 'nice guy with style'. He's one of the good guys but he doesn't think that's enough to attract a woman. He's nice and polite to women but he doesn't think she owes him sex because of it. He's got a heart of gold but knows that if he wants anything the world demands he gets out there and takes it. He tries to be amicable but he also has his passions - his interests and his hobbies. In short, he's a very well rounded individual on many levels.
Does this man get the girls? Unfortunately, not always. He has such high standards in what he wants to become - physically, intellectually and spiritually - that this is MISperceived as a lack of self-certainty by many women. These same women don't see the fact his self-deprecation serves a purpose: to make him better as an all round person, to strive higher and reach for the stars.
In short, next time a woman tells you, "I'm just looking for confidence in a guy", ask her what she means by confidence and just what else exactly it is that she wants.
What Girls & Guys Said
Opinion
1Opinion
I'm glad you acknowledge that confidence is a complex trait. Yeah I mean people say "Just be confident." Well that doesn't always solve the issue. Why? Because like you said confidence is hard to pin point. It is. Confidence can take multiple shapes and forms. It is not solid, but it can be. It is not liquid, but it can be. Yet we still have a knack for picking it up when it's there. Maybe sometimes people don't realize they have picked it up.
I want to address a underlying point you have. You mentioned guys wanting appearance over everything. That guys don't really care to look for a steady partner. I know you said some and not all, but this is still a big misconception. I know guys who ARE looking for a steady partners who can care for children etc. but then I also know guys like me who don't really care about that and just looking for a hot girl to stick our cocks into.
On the other hand there are females who are looking for a partner that will care for them and potential children, but there are also females who just want dick from a hot guy.
It's not gender specific. I'm tired of people making it a gender thing. It's not when it comes to that. Sure maybe the priorities are a bit different but at the top there's still always going to be appearance and personality/character/whatever.
I also don't like your definition of a "nice guy". Many guys are both bad and good. I'm polite, shy, and have some self-control. Yet still I just like casual sex. I don't necessarily think the girl owes me sex, but I do typically just want that. Isn't that what a "bad guy" supposedly only wants in females? I also think I'm as great as I'll ever become. Do I have some goals I want? Sure, but when I get them I don't feel that makes me "better". It's just another goal accomplished. I try not to place too much value in the whole "better person" stuff and just focus on goal by goal. If the world outside me thinks I'm better than fine, but I believe I've always been the same. So what am I? Bad? Nice? Lol.
I love your general point though. Don't get me wrong. You're right when you say that confidence is complex and comprises of many things. Some females want a outspoken guy. That's confidence to them. Some want a guy that's really invested in his goals. That's confidence to them. Some want a guy who just appears confident. Some want a guy who looks at them with confidence. Some want a guy who's just comfortable being with her. That's confidence. Etc. Etc.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Since this thread was talking mainly about superficiality in (some) women I wanted to contrast it with the superficiality in (some) men and show how (some of) these women are more subtle/insidious in this regard. That's why I showed how some men just want looks (blatant superficiality) and didn't talk about the gold diggers or the women like this themselves (also blatant superficiality). Instead, I wanted to talk about what's wrong sometimes with focusing on the intrinsic, e. g. women playing push-pull, feigning interest acting coy, etc. They are looking for a particular set of alpha male qualities. But this is done in a manipulative fashion, and men that can out maneuver these tactics are not necessarily trust worthy themselves.
But yes, I like what you have had to add in terms of confidence and the shifting variables which it is composed of. Sometimes people worship confidence in the wrong things. For example a psychopath at the top of wall street will be revered for his financial powers, even more so a hedge fund manager that is good with our money. But we forget about the ability these men have to destroy lives. Artists and creators have much confidence in what they produce but because we do not always see the immediate value, we are quick to dismiss. The bodhisattvas of this world are not always given the chance to effect the change they envision but the corrupt bankers and politicians and evil scientists will be quick to project their schemes into society because they act on a simple principle: you snooze, you lose.
Okay I understand. You're right.
"Men are shallow and judgmental about appearance, while women looks at the factors that really make a man a man."
Women look at the factors that make a man a good HUMAN BEING which is what looking at internal factors does. If men are only taking looks into consideration then one can only conclude that men A) are shallow/empty as people and thus have nothing to offer women B) are not good human beings C) are not as intelligent as women in general.
"Just because she says she is looking for something deeper and more meaningful, it doesn't necessarily make her any better than these shallow hordes of men "
Umm... yes actually it DOES make her a better human being. She's looking at what really matters, the behavior, not the looks (which cannot be controlled to a large degree). The human being is defined by the quality of the soul on the inside otherwise they're no different than an animal.
"He's one of the good guys but he doesn't think that's enough to attract a woman."
I don't think he should care if it's good enough for women. There are many good guys that don't understand why women like the sociopaths and they think they must become a bad person in order to attract women. The problem is NOT with the man it's with the half-retarded women that think that an abusive persons is fit for a relationship or is attractive.
Hmm, it seems like every time you sampled a quotation, you only adressed half the argument. This would indicate that either you did not read the take properly, or that you did this on purpose to misrepresent my views. Either way, I will address your points, referring to the take.
' women look at the factors that make a man a good human beings '
Like I explained, this is not necessarily the case. What they want is a man that can SURVIVE. Of course, attractiveness is very much subjective, but this is the premise I was working from in the take. Either way, judging women as totally non-superficial and shallow as a gender is not going to be correct because there certainly will be women who are not like this. I am trying to explain some of the more insidious ways a woman can be like this apart from being a very obvious gold digger or a woman just looking for a handsome man.
I took two separate points that you made and gave my opinion on those 2 points NOT on the entire MyTake. There's nothing hard to understand about that. I also did not say all women weren't shallow I'm addressing the ones that aren't.
In any case I'm not really trying to justify superficial men, just point out that (a) their superficiality is abundantly clear, we don't need to bleed out an essay to root it out, (b) women ARE being just as shallow, just more insidiously (so why can't men do the same?), (c) men are more likely to do this kind of thing when they are younger and more inexperienced.
'I don't think he should care if it's good enough for women.'
I said as much. Such men tend to be neglected still the same.
"(b) women ARE being just as shallow, just more insidiously (so why can't men do the same?), "
If you're example of women being "shallow in insidious ways" is women looking at the inside of the man and judging him by it then that is THE OPPOSITE OF SHALLOW. Shallow means to be attracted to the person based on looks, social status and/or income. NOT on their inside. So you just essentially proved that women are in fact not shallow.
"Such men tend to be neglected still the same."
So what are they supposed to put on a bad boy persona to attract women? That's stupid and unattractive. There's nothing attractive about a criminal if you're attracted to bad boys you're probably a hood rat. I can't ever imagine anyone being so desperate they'd actually change their entire personality. "Good guys" attract women as well. Besides good and bad is never black and white when it comes to people since everyone is capable of and does both.
' shallow ' might not be the right word, however how would you describe some woman that does not want to date of have dress with men that are socially awkward, introverted, maybe even have mildly autistic features? Nobody says women are shallow for judging men by what's on the inside because this is counter-intuitive. When people hear the words, I'm interested in what's on the inside, we tend to forget about the negative traits that can be found on the inside. When a woman acts coy, plays hot and cold, feigns interest or disinterest, she is doing it to attract a man with certain qualities. These qualities are not necessarily good things and that is the point I'm trying to drive home in this take.
' are they supposed to put on a bad boy person's to attract women'
Not at all, I don't believe I ever said that. Just pointing out that' nice guys' can take all of the typical advice you see on the internet- don't be a push over, have interests and hobbies, don't date above your league,
*etc. etc. and still be unsuccessful because many women will still be blind to the inner confidence and other virtues that such a man has to offer.
Yes these terms are indeed generalisations, that's why I tried to break out of some stereotypes, e. g. the stereotype that nice guys are unattractive, they are just using their niceness to get sex and not really that nice. I pointed out that this is not so, but like you mention there are even more generalisations in the online dating community. In fact the online dating community is a plethora of simplistic generalisations and advice many of which I have adressed on here (e. g. men are shallow only care about looks, women care about personality and confidence: they are very noble creatures. This is why men should cater to women's demands: buy them drinks, pay for dates, approach them, be dominant and lead the interaction, etc. etc.). In short, most of these generalisations benefit WOMEN a lot more than men.
"don't be a push over, have interests and hobbies, don't date above your league,"
That's actually perfect advice
"the stereotype that nice guys are unattractive, they are just using their niceness to get sex and not really that nice"
Oh I see. The guys that are genuinely nice/kind people, those are the only "nice guys" there are.
"men are shallow only care about looks, women care about personality and confidence: they are very noble creatures."
Yeah but on average that is in fact the case. How many good looking men do you see with overweight or not pretty women as opposed to gorgeous or attractive women with really not as attractive men. It seems that society teaches women that just there to be eye candy and that's it while many men only help to reinforce that. That's just the honest truth.
I think this article made some good points:
www.cracked.com/...e-trained-to-hate-women_p2.html
' that's actually perfect advice '
You see, you do not address the argument in full, just take a segment out of context. You also ignored the points about a woman refusing to date a socially awkward man and society deeming this as acceptable, non-shallow behaviour because she is supposedly preoccupied with what is on the inside. By contrast, men who date by looks are seen as shallow because looks are much easier to pinpoint as concrete / fixed properties.
' those are the only"nice guys" out there '
Maybe not but they're certainly the type of ' nice guys' I'm describing here.
About men dating 'up' compared to women (again looks is just ONE factor), any answer I give is going to be a generalisation without empirical evidence to support such a claim (as is your assumption that more men do so than women). Whatever the case, I have certainly seen the reverse scenarios of what it is you describe.
Denying to date someone because their socially awkward is much KINDER and reasonable than denying to date someone because of their looks.
At least if you're socially awkward you can change that but if you're not attractive not much can be done. Women AGAIN have better more realistic, wholesome HUMANISTIC criteria for judging men. While to some men it only matters if she's hot (pretty face/skinny=supermodel) and not too stupid or too bitchy, which doesn't tell you if she'll make a good partner OR mother.
*they're
What if the man is on the autistic spectrum, he can't change that. And a woman CAN change her appearance/work on her physique. Anyway, you're changing your argument because before you were saying there's nothing shallow about a woman judging a man by what's on the inside. Now your saying that the problem lies in judging attributes that someone can't change.
I wasn't changing my argument. You're just not making any sense logically.
Judging a man by what's on the inside is the opposite of shallow, because you're looking beyond the surface (which is what shallow means= the surface.)
Judging someone by something on the surface they cannot change IS shallow. Which is what I was pointing out.
So the point you were trying to make does not follow.
Well repeating points that I've already addressed doesn't make your argument logical either. And just because you think those things are simply true intuitively does not make them so. Like I said you can use a different word other than shallow rather than interpret me so literally. Some looking beneath the surface are not necessarily looking for positive attributes. and men that date based on looks might have good attractive speak themselves. they might be fed up of the way women treat men and act like the victims. and they might be sick of being told their standards are to high when the same is true of women. why can't they date within their league but women can?
I didn't repeat it I just addressed a different facet of the same thing.
I never said men can't date within their own league. The dilemma lies is that some people think that they're in the same league as a supermodel when that is not the case. When people point out that they're standards are higher than the ones they meet they complain people are calling them shallow when in fact they ARE. You can't expect to be with an Adriana Lima type (or whoever else, for example) if you don't look up to par otherwise the choosing and dating down will be done by her. Then men complain that she is being shallow when she rejects them.
Besides looks are are a very subjective thing.
The point is that judging somebody by their inside (behavior/actions, thought, personality, morals etc) is a MUST otherwise you could end up in a hell of a relationship with a criminal psychopath, a drug-dealer, a bitch, a sadist or a narcissist. Those are FAR more important to consider than looks because when you're dating/in a relationship you have to interact with the person's inner self the most. The inner person is the true person, looks are just the shell or the vehicle that carries the soul of that person so to speak. Some people are just blessed in the looks department but can still be nasty people.
'I never said men can't date within their own league. The dilemma lies is that some people think that they're in the same league as a supermodel when that is not the case. When people point out that they're standards are higher than the ones they meet they complain people are calling them shallow when in fact they ARE. '
Sure, all of this sounds reasonable.
'Besides looks are are a very subjective thing.'
Yes, as are the personality attributes women are looking for in a man.
'when you're dating/in a relationship you have to interact with the person's inner self the most'
Yes, but realistically women and men are going to have a hard time ignoring the extrinsic stuff. Anyway, like I already mentioned the inner qualities women are looking for in a man are not necessarily positive things.
' a criminal psychopath, a drug-dealer, a bitch, a sadist or a narcissist.'
e. g. all of these people could be considered exciting and therefore intrinsically attractive, negating whatever extrinsic stuff they have going for them.
Criminals are not going to be attractive to the majority of women. Only women that are like that themselves would be attracted to those type of men. There are positive qualities in a man the are just or even more exciting then criminal behavior. It depends on the values of the woman, if she has negative values that speaks volumes on the type of person she is. Its not the nice guys fault that some women are attracted to sociopaths. Thats out of his control. What Im saying is that he shouldn't feel bad that those women do and worry about the women who are looking for men like him.
'Criminals are not going to be attractive to the majority of women.'
It's hard to say for sure because neither us really knows what the 'majority' of anybody ever wants. But, we can probably agree that being attracted to narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies is only 'deep' in a very meaningless way (in so far as it's the inner qualities a person is interested in after all). Either way, their definitely are women out there who find these kinds of men more exciting and appealing.
'Its not the nice guys fault that some women are attracted to sociopaths.'
The other problem for the nice guy is that many women mistake arrogance for confidence. So this means that a lot of men will inevitably be misjudged which is how you have so many men that are pimps, criminals, etc. manipulating women into liking them and then ultimately abusing them.
'he shouldn't feel bad that those women do and worry about the women who are looking for men like him.'
Maybe so, but it does make...
... things a lot more difficult for this kind of man to find worthwhile women. So I can agree with the advice 'pull your boot straps up' when *nice guys* are too fixated on one girl that's already friend zoned them, or when they are not trying to enhance their attractive qualities (hitting the gyms, having hobbies, etc.) The advice is only bad when we take into account that there are a shortage of girls for the *nice guy* to get with when the bitches of this world treat him bad... or that none of these girls are paying him any attention even when he is making a serious effort to improve. We can agree then that the *nice guy* does have a right to complain about some things.
There actually isn't a shortage of women that like nice guys. Most women (nice girls themselves) seek and marry nice guys. Nice guys are sought after as husbands because they're ideal to have around children. The vast majority of successful marriages are because the guy is a nice guy. Nice guys might not always be as assertive as assholes so perhaps thats why they don't get as many women but you can be assertive and nice at the same time. The women likes the asshole in the first place not because he treats her bad (who even likes that but a masochist?) but because he is assertive, dominant and shows little fear.
two things: ok, sure. but lots of nice guys are going to feel resentful about being chosen as a husband but neglected for sex in their prime. they probably aren't going to want to settle down with a woman that has slept with a bunch of assholes because that says something about her integrity (she is a masochist like you say).
assertiveness and dominance: it's the same deal with confidence which I discussed in the mytake. basically these are very liquid properties that take many shapes and forms - difficult to pinpoint exactly. what's more is that they are neither good nor evil since they can have a positive effect (e. g. world leaders like Gandhi and Martin Luther King) or a negative back lash - such as in your example, when people are attracted to criminals, assholes, bitches, etc. because they are 'more confident'. We can say that this would be an instance of
'when focussing on the internal attributes of a man (or woman!) is not a good thing'.
Dude, your last comment is exactly how I feel. I've gone from a nice guy that just wants to be given a chance to make a girl smile to an asshole that doesn't give a fuck about their feelings because I don't want to be that guy girls eventually settle with in their 30s after they've been used and abused by confident and good looking assholes in their youth.
@idiotmanchild
Yeah, for the most part women don't appreciate most of that stuff anyway so what's the point?
Yep, that's why I gave up and won't consider dating again. I'll just continue being the best me I can be for me and share my wealth with people that actually need it.
@idiotmanchild
It's always a good thing for a man that can walk away from women - more power to him. For me, I am not able to. That's because I still feel the need to overcome this particular hurdle in my life. Maybe it is just a case of finding that one needle in the haystack - that one girl that doesn't play games, you know?
I think it's ultimately better to maintain some glimmer of hope. There are some wonderful women out there and even if I can no longer put a smile on their face, hopefully great guys like you can. Don't become a resentful asshole like me, it's miserable and if I didn't have a great career I would probably collapse.
@idiotmanchild
thanks man. I already am a resentful asshole though, lol.
Hey I love guys who are both nice AND attractive (being nice will not overcome lack of attraction). But I also want a guy who is fairly outgoing and fun. "Nice guys" who aren't outgoing or fun can come across as unconfident. (I'm an introvert but I still like adventures and can easily talk to people at parties)
Hey, that's why I talked about the nice guy with style - someone who has a bit of both, looks AND personality.