8 mo

Why Nice Guys Struggle With Women And How Bad Advice From Women Encourages Nice Guy Behaviour

A few people have been talking about the "bad boy" vs "nice guy" thing recently, and I've seen many guys asking how to become more confident in approaching women, so I thought I'd write a quick take on it (maybe it will be a little disorganised, but whatever). I mentioned in the title how I believe that bad advice from women encourages nice guy behaviour - this isn't going to be a woman-bashing take. I'll explain.

Why Nice Guys Struggle With Women And How Bad Advice From Women Encourages Nice Guy Behaviour

Many guys today are so confused as to how to navigate the dating world. This is why we have so many "nice guys", incels, MGTOW etc. The reason they're confused is that as men we're given a lot of mixed messages. Should we act in a chivalrous manner? Or is the girl likely to find that sexist and insulting? When is it okay to approach a girl and show interest, and when is it not? How should we go about that if/when we do find "the right moment" to do so? What's acceptable and what isn't?

As men we're also mostly expected to make the first move, whereas women are mostly passive. Many women will say "if a guy doesn't have the balls to approach me I'm not interested in him". Others say that they tried approaching guys and asking them out but that it "didn't work out for them", and then when you ask them how many they approached it's like "2 or 3", which is nothing. If they like a guy they usually ask how to get the guy to approach them. Again this is not a criticism of women, and some guys get mad about that which is a little silly and pointless, the point I'm making is that we experience dating in a much different way which is something many women don't seem to understand.

There's a video that many people have posted here by a guy named Matt Hussey, a dating coach for women, and in this video speaking to women about how to get guys to approach them, he explains the problems men face as a result of this. There are a small percentage of guys who are very confident in approaching women, probably around 1% of the male population. These are the players and the sleazeballs. A larger number of men will never approach a woman at all, and these guys are mostly invisible to women. In-between you have the average guy who waits for the right moment to approach. But those guys are no good at determining when it the right moment. Then when they're sure it is the right moment they don't know what to do or say. Some women downplay this when they say "what's the big deal, we're just humans" - but most women don't approach men out of fear of rejection either so we could easily ask you the same question. It matters.

I just answered a questions asked by a guy who wanted to know how to gain confidence in approaching and dating women. The female answers were mostly the same, basically just talk to them and make a lot of female friends. This sets guys up for failure, and even worse is that when this advice that women themselves gave to these men fails and those guys and they ask what's going on, women react with hostility and call him an entitled piece of shit, "women aren't machines that you put nice tokens into to get sex" and all that. I know because I used to be that guy. Fake nice guys exist for sure but many guys are just genuinely confused. The same woman who advises a man to make a lot of female friends will then call him a manipulative piece of shit for pretending to be friends with a girl he wanted to date when she encouraged it in the first place. For some reason they fail to put 2 and 2 together, but this is how women create nice guys.

Sometimes sure, the "friend's first" thing might work. Many people meet through their social circle. But in general, usually one or the other has to make something happen. One of them has to let the other know that they're interested. Usually this is the job of the man, and I already explained the problems men face when it comes to this especially today. If the guy doesn't know how to show interest, a lot of the time nothing will happen. The idea that things "just happen" is a female idea because that's how things work for you. Nice guys usually don't struggle to make female friends, they struggle to show interest in a girl beyond platonic friendship.

For the nice guy the lack of success mainly has to do with being too cautious in showing interest in a girl and playing it safe because they lack the confidence to do so. Most of them treat the girl as if she's a platonic friend, while secretly having feelings for her as they try to find the "right moment", then eventually they become so frustrated by this that they either overly dramatically confess their feelings for her, awkwardly try to make a move e.g. randomly lunging in for a kiss, get mad that she didn't make a move on him (asking silly questions like "if women want equality why don't THEY make a move on us?"), or get mad that she chose another guy over him.

This brings me to the "bad boy" vs "nice guy" idea. Many guys say that women prefer assholes, that they love to be treated like shit. They never give nice guys a chance because they're stupid bitches. This is why women react with hostility towards nice guys, even those who don't say these things and are just confused. It's the reason every time they hear the word "nice guy" they do a little sick in their mouth. Women obviously respond to this by saying that it's ridiculous. Others come up with all of these theories as to why women choose bad boys - they must be broken, immature women.

In reality it has nothing to do with being treated like shit. The main difference between the nice guy and the bad boy is that the bad boy doesn't give a shit so he has no problem showing interest in a girl and trying to pull her. He isn't gun-shy like the nice guy. A woman doesn't choose the bad boy BECAUSE he's not a good guy, she ends up with him DESPITE the fact that he's not a good guy because he was the one who made a move. In a way he's also less phoney since he doesn't try to "friend" his way into a girl's pants.

Some guys might ask "well, if not making a move means she always ends up with players, fuckboys etc. why doesn't she learn from that and pursue decent guys who are a little shy?" Well, for the same reason you don't either. Fear of rejection. That's also not gonna change no matter how much you complain about it. If anything you should see that and realise that having the confidence to approach gives you more options than simply having to settle for whoever shows interest in you.

My advice to guys who struggle with this is simple: just be honest from the get-go about your intentions because that's the best way to prevent the "platonic friend" frame and instead get her to begin to evaluate you as a potential boyfriend. Stop worrying so much about rejection, stop playing it safe. Rejection is bound to happen, and it sucks, but it's not such a big deal. I don't know how many times I was rejected and you tend to forget all about it anyway when you find a girl who likes you. It's also completely pointless to complain about women's behaviour or choices, instead you should focus on your own behaviour.

My advice to women who find nice guys really annoying: stop telling guys to act like nice guys and giving them advice that only really works for women.

Why Nice Guys Struggle With Women And How Bad Advice From Women Encourages Nice Guy Behaviour
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  • MattsHerez

    You're logic is so flawed. You talk about not bashing women but then basically accuse them of creating the nice guy as well as calling them bitches.

    Women did not create the nice guy. Men created the nice guy because these "nice guys" think back to the days when chivalry was basically trying to win women over with nice shit. It was a lot easier back then because women were considered property that you could buy.

    Now women are independent and want more then a guy who's gonna just give them everything. They want excitement and fun. Nice guys can't provide this cause they are vanilla.

    I guarantee you that if a nice guy talked to a few women and got rejected he would realize that rejection is not the end of the world. The more you try the better you get. I used to be a very nervous scared dude but one day I realized that I shouldn't be afraid. Now I ask out women as soon as I realize that I would like something more then friendship. I started doing that about 4 months ago and since then I had a 3 month relationship with one girl and slept with two others and made out with a bunch more.

    Don't pretend to be friends with them because that is truly disgusting. Here's a scenario. You're an extremely rich dude. Suddenly a guy or girl becomes very friendly with you. Cool right? However one day you discover that the only reason they were being friendly with you was because they were hoping to get some of that money. Wouldn't you be pissed? Why is it then okay for a dude to do it to a girl?


    Is this still revelant?
    • You are so right. He lost me at the bitches part revealing his own feelings towards women while pretending to mask them.

    • englisc


      You both misunderstood that part, or you're reading too much into it. I was quoting the things I've seen "nice guys" say about women. It was a little rished I guess.


      I don't disagree with any of the things you've said. My main criticism of women is that when they gibe advice to guys, usually they encourage guys to make lots of female friends. In fact what sparked this was a question where a guy asked how to approach women and most of the girls literally told him to do this, and I said that it was a bad idea for the same reasons you just mentioned. Women might not have originally created nice guys, that's obvious, but when a guy asks a question like that and women give him advice like that, that's why many men act that way.

    • englisc


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  • Anonymous

    There's also the nuance of how you show interest, and how much interest you show. I'd say that a good first approximation should be that you should show interest mostly covertly (i. e. show much more interest covertly than overtly, and in particular close to no overt interest at the beginning of the interaction). This is because too much (overt) interest too fast could kill the attraction or scare her. And by settings up the first meetings as dates only covertly, you allow her to postpone the choice of whether it was overtly a date (so less pressure to make a decision). And lastly, if you get rejected covertly, it may hurt less than an overt rejection.

    Is this still revelant?
    • englisc

      I think that it's this fear of showing overt interest and overt rejection is precisely the thing that holds nice guys back, which was the point I was trying to make. Everything about their behaviour is about avoiding rejection.

      For example, when me and my girlfriend first met, she said "we can hang out as friends". A nice guy would say yes to that, thinking that putting less pressure on her was a good thing and not wanting to "rock the boat" or scare her. But this is why they get friend-zoned also because the more they hang out with the girl as friends the more it solidifies in her head the idea that they're just friends. So I said in response "no, it's a date. I'm not interested in being your friend". Then she asked "why don't you want to be my friend? I just wanted to lessen the pressure" and I just said "I'm just not interested in being your friend, I'm interested in dating you, so it's a date". If she ran off because of that - good.

      When guys are so afraid of losing her that's why they play it safe. And how is covert rejection any better than overt rejection? It isn't really, it ends in the same way, only it takes a lot longer. I'd rather get rejected early on and go find another girl than spend a lot of time talking to a girl and dating her for her to say "lets just be friends".

      The only time I think covert interest is a good idea is maybe when you meet someone through your social circle. Even then that's another skill most guys don't really have, they don't tend to do much with it.

    • Anonymous

      I agree with the "knowing where you're at early", and that if she asks you to make the intended status of the meeting explicit, you should.

      To your overt "no, it's a date", I would often prefer the slightly more covert "or more" with a smile, the idea still being that the longer you let her postpone her decision, the better your chances are (assuming the date goes well).

      It also depends on what you kind of relationships with the girl would interest you. The covert approach has the benefit that it lets you build a friendship in case she's not interested, which I believe to be a good thing since most girls I'd want as girlfriends would also make good friends. There's of course the trap of the one-sided friendship, but if you behave properly, it's pretty unlikely.

      Also, I find covert interest easier to show than overt interest. And I believe that guys fail because they don't show interest at all, and covert interest would be sufficient.

      In short, I believe the "optimal" behaviour to be: (1) Express covert interest very early. (2) If she responds positively, go on dates, and keep showing more covert interest. I'm not sure there is a point in expressing overt interest before "the talk". (3) If she asks for an overt declaration of interest, do it. (4) If she responds negatively to (1), either befriend her if being her friend is fine by you, or cut ties. (5) If she doesn't respond to (1), start showing interest in a less and less covert way, until it's overt or she gave a positive or negative response.

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What Girls & Guys Said

  • Giggletr0n

    All very good points but most true "nice guys" will block out any advice with hate speech or arrogance and set themselves up to fail with stupidly high standards for women, like only wanthing to date models or something while they themselves look like a foot that hasn't been washed in a decade!

  • bamesjond0069

    Girls will never stop giving bad advice because its a shit test. Any man who listens to a woman is not suitable romantically. Women will tell you to chop your dick off and then they will get with the man who didn't listen. Get it? They dont want a man so weak he listens to dumb shit.

    Its kind of stupid in my opinion but you can't change other people so get over it and be a better man.

    • Lol that's funny, but you make a very valid point with that. Of course a girl wouldn't want to be with a guy that stupid... and a guy shouldn't want to be with a girl who would do the same

    • @Idonthaveausername No its opposite. Men and women typically want the man to lead meaning the woman should follow. And thus the shit test is to see if the man will let the woman lead or not when she tries to lead him off a cliff.

    • That has nothing to do with leading. People just don't want to be with idiots. If a girl wants a leader type, she will be submissive, and a submissive girl would never tell a dominant man to do anything, much less cut his dick off

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  • Balcazaurus

    There are legitimately genuine nice guys---they have the proper brain chemistry and should be sought out.

    Then there are the "nice guys" who are just defective and should be avoided.

  • Robertcw

    First and only accurate and honest description of this phenomenon I have seen on this site.

  • Liam_Hayden

    I'm nice and have few problems. I also enjoy life so that helps, too. Mainly, though, I think I do well because women realize I'm not "fake manipulative expecting a blow job because I helped her out" nice.

  • Lman3000

    Fuck that the nice guy act BS it ain't gonna get ya nowhere just stop giving a fuck on how to act and who knows someday an opportunity may strike

  • Lance1965

    All I know is guys shouldn't take dating advice from any woman, even a woman that claims to be a dating expert should be ignored.

  • RolandCuthbert

    I like your advice about being honest. The problem is the fear of rejection is always there. That's why I recommend guys to use friend networks of women. Stop expending so much energy focusing in on one girl. Basically put all women in a "friendzone". And let them do at least half the work. Date often, even if it is not serious. Social as much as possible. Develop your skills and make your move on the women you are really attracted to.

    The thing is to never stop until you are in a committed relationship.

    But not many men can simply ignore rejection. We are not robots. But we can devise a coping mechanism to get around it.

    • Robertcw

      Yep. We are not robots. It still affects me today. I get down at least a few days before I bounce back.

      However I don’t like social circles. I am more of an independent so whatever and bounce between circles type of person. I neither here nor there for a lot of people.

    • @Robertcw As long as you can deal with consequences, I don't think anyone would say that is an issue. I think we are speaking specifically about men who want to get better at the dating game. But there are many who are content with their lives as they are.

  • awesometjgreen

    Sir I wish I knew you so I could give you a hug. This is so well written. The problem for me though is finding the girls. Girls always seem so cold and when I see them talking to the asshole type guys I get discouraged and move on.
    Also I want to say that most of the so called, "bad boys" Aren't even really that bad. I've been mistreated by a lot of assholes from both genders but I've also met a lot of nice tall football player rich guys that are very polite and don't treat people like shit. They have women mostly because they are attractive/have confidence and charisma

  • yeeeeeeeet

    Nice take

  • OtakuNeko666

    The logic is... 👏👏 very logical (sarcasm)

    • Robertcw

      Really? It’s the actual truth of the matter. There’s no bias here at all.

    • @Robertcw Women are confusing, confused men make the matter even more confusing...

    • Robertcw

      Do you really disagree with this take or are you just trying to stir the pot?

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  • Chthou95

    I can agree with this.

  • Anonymous

    You gotta understand that when women imagine a guy approaching them, they imagine Brad Pitt (even if they themselves are 200 lb ugly trolls). And if Brad Pitt was to appear, he really could only be nice, and still get laid (pretty much anything he did would get him laid). But what happens is Brad doesn't approach them, but Steve the plumber does. And of course, the same strategy won't work for Steve, he needs a lot more effort and skill. So no guy should pay any attention to what women say they want, because women ALWAYS end up with the polar opposite of the guy they say they want. I learned it the hard way, in high school the girl I liked always said she liked tall black haired muscular guys (and I was one of them), but then she ended up fucking a blonde scrawny little guy who looks like he is 11 years old.

    • Robertcw

      Actually good insight. I think in many women’s minds when asked how they want to be approached they take that to only count for guys they want to approach them already.

      I doubt any technique can make joe plumber work. It’s as you say.


      Guy: “How should a guy win you over if he likes you?”
      Girl: [internal thoughts: ah, well let’s see. Those other guys need not apply so...] “Well he should be funny, charismatic and kind.”
      Guy: “That’s it?”
      Girl: “Yes silly. It’s not complicated.”
      Joe Plumber: “Hello. Can you believe what X did the other day? It was really silly. Anyway, my name is Joe. How are you?”
      Girl: “Eww, get away from me creep.”
      Brad: “Hey, hows the weather?”
      Girl: “😍😍😍.”

      THE TRUTH folks.

    • Robertcw

      Forgot to include Joe Plubler’s reaction.

      Joe Plumber: “😟.”