Why Nice Guys Struggle With Women And How Bad Advice From Women Encourages Nice Guy Behaviour

[englisc]

A few people have been talking about the "bad boy" vs "nice guy" thing recently, and I've seen many guys asking how to become more confident in approaching women, so I thought I'd write a quick take on it (maybe it will be a little disorganised, but whatever). I mentioned in the title how I believe that bad advice from women encourages nice guy behaviour - this isn't going to be a woman-bashing take. I'll explain.

Many guys today are so confused as to how to navigate the dating world. This is why we have so many "nice guys", incels, MGTOW etc. The reason they're confused is that as men we're given a lot of mixed messages. Should we act in a chivalrous manner? Or is the girl likely to find that sexist and insulting? When is it okay to approach a girl and show interest, and when is it not? How should we go about that if/when we do find "the right moment" to do so? What's acceptable and what isn't?

As men we're also mostly expected to make the first move, whereas women are mostly passive. Many women will say "if a guy doesn't have the balls to approach me I'm not interested in him". Others say that they tried approaching guys and asking them out but that it "didn't work out for them", and then when you ask them how many they approached it's like "2 or 3", which is nothing. If they like a guy they usually ask how to get the guy to approach them. Again this is not a criticism of women, and some guys get mad about that which is a little silly and pointless, the point I'm making is that we experience dating in a much different way which is something many women don't seem to understand.

There's a video that many people have posted here by a guy named Matt Hussey, a dating coach for women, and in this video speaking to women about how to get guys to approach them, he explains the problems men face as a result of this. There are a small percentage of guys who are very confident in approaching women, probably around 1% of the male population. These are the players and the sleazeballs. A larger number of men will never approach a woman at all, and these guys are mostly invisible to women. In-between you have the average guy who waits for the right moment to approach. But those guys are no good at determining when it the right moment. Then when they're sure it is the right moment they don't know what to do or say. Some women downplay this when they say "what's the big deal, we're just humans" - but most women don't approach men out of fear of rejection either so we could easily ask you the same question. It matters.

I just answered a questions asked by a guy who wanted to know how to gain confidence in approaching and dating women. The female answers were mostly the same, basically just talk to them and make a lot of female friends. This sets guys up for failure, and even worse is that when this advice that women themselves gave to these men fails and those guys and they ask what's going on, women react with hostility and call him an entitled piece of shit, "women aren't machines that you put nice tokens into to get sex" and all that. I know because I used to be that guy. Fake nice guys exist for sure but many guys are just genuinely confused. The same woman who advises a man to make a lot of female friends will then call him a manipulative piece of shit for pretending to be friends with a girl he wanted to date when she encouraged it in the first place. For some reason they fail to put 2 and 2 together, but this is how women create nice guys.

Sometimes sure, the "friend's first" thing might work. Many people meet through their social circle. But in general, usually one or the other has to make something happen. One of them has to let the other know that they're interested. Usually this is the job of the man, and I already explained the problems men face when it comes to this especially today. If the guy doesn't know how to show interest, a lot of the time nothing will happen. The idea that things "just happen" is a female idea because that's how things work for you. Nice guys usually don't struggle to make female friends, they struggle to show interest in a girl beyond platonic friendship.

For the nice guy the lack of success mainly has to do with being too cautious in showing interest in a girl and playing it safe because they lack the confidence to do so. Most of them treat the girl as if she's a platonic friend, while secretly having feelings for her as they try to find the "right moment", then eventually they become so frustrated by this that they either overly dramatically confess their feelings for her, awkwardly try to make a move e.g. randomly lunging in for a kiss, get mad that she didn't make a move on him (asking silly questions like "if women want equality why don't THEY make a move on us?"), or get mad that she chose another guy over him.

This brings me to the "bad boy" vs "nice guy" idea. Many guys say that women prefer assholes, that they love to be treated like shit. They never give nice guys a chance because they're stupid bitches. This is why women react with hostility towards nice guys, even those who don't say these things and are just confused. It's the reason every time they hear the word "nice guy" they do a little sick in their mouth. Women obviously respond to this by saying that it's ridiculous. Others come up with all of these theories as to why women choose bad boys - they must be broken, immature women.

In reality it has nothing to do with being treated like shit. The main difference between the nice guy and the bad boy is that the bad boy doesn't give a shit so he has no problem showing interest in a girl and trying to pull her. He isn't gun-shy like the nice guy. A woman doesn't choose the bad boy BECAUSE he's not a good guy, she ends up with him DESPITE the fact that he's not a good guy because he was the one who made a move. In a way he's also less phoney since he doesn't try to "friend" his way into a girl's pants.

Some guys might ask "well, if not making a move means she always ends up with players, fuckboys etc. why doesn't she learn from that and pursue decent guys who are a little shy?" Well, for the same reason you don't either. Fear of rejection. That's also not gonna change no matter how much you complain about it. If anything you should see that and realise that having the confidence to approach gives you more options than simply having to settle for whoever shows interest in you.

My advice to guys who struggle with this is simple: just be honest from the get-go about your intentions because that's the best way to prevent the "platonic friend" frame and instead get her to begin to evaluate you as a potential boyfriend. Stop worrying so much about rejection, stop playing it safe. Rejection is bound to happen, and it sucks, but it's not such a big deal. I don't know how many times I was rejected and you tend to forget all about it anyway when you find a girl who likes you. It's also completely pointless to complain about women's behaviour or choices, instead you should focus on your own behaviour.

My advice to women who find nice guys really annoying: stop telling guys to act like nice guys and giving them advice that only really works for women.

[MattsHerez]

You're logic is so flawed. You talk about not bashing women but then basically accuse them of creating the nice guy as well as calling them bitches.

Women did not create the nice guy. Men created the nice guy because these "nice guys" think back to the days when chivalry was basically trying to win women over with nice shit. It was a lot easier back then because women were considered property that you could buy.

Now women are independent and want more then a guy who's gonna just give them everything. They want excitement and fun. Nice guys can't provide this cause they are vanilla.

I guarantee you that if a nice guy talked to a few women and got rejected he would realize that rejection is not the end of the world. The more you try the better you get. I used to be a very nervous scared dude but one day I realized that I shouldn't be afraid. Now I ask out women as soon as I realize that I would like something more then friendship. I started doing that about 4 months ago and since then I had a 3 month relationship with one girl and slept with two others and made out with a bunch more.

Don't pretend to be friends with them because that is truly disgusting. Here's a scenario. You're an extremely rich dude. Suddenly a guy or girl becomes very friendly with you. Cool right? However one day you discover that the only reason they were being friendly with you was because they were hoping to get some of that money. Wouldn't you be pissed? Why is it then okay for a dude to do it to a girl?

FUCK NICE GUYS!!

[MySmileIsFierce]

You are so right. He lost me at the bitches part revealing his own feelings towards women while pretending to mask them.

[englisc]

@MySmileIsFierce

You both misunderstood that part, or you're reading too much into it. I was quoting the things I've seen "nice guys" say about women. It was a little rished I guess.

@MattHerez

I don't disagree with any of the things you've said. My main criticism of women is that when they gibe advice to guys, usually they encourage guys to make lots of female friends. In fact what sparked this was a question where a guy asked how to approach women and most of the girls literally told him to do this, and I said that it was a bad idea for the same reasons you just mentioned. Women might not have originally created nice guys, that's obvious, but when a guy asks a question like that and women give him advice like that, that's why many men act that way.

[englisc]

Rushed*

[Robertcw]

Are you really saying you’ve never heard a girl give advice that a guy should be ‘kind, empathetic, funny and sweet’ to win her over?

Give me a break man. They say this all the time. And then guys take it to heart and go out and do those things and then are like ‘wtf’ when the advice doesn’t seem to work.

There’s no bad intentions there except for wanting to be want women want because they like women.

[Robertcw]

Though, reading this again you have a point. However, what came first? The chicken or the egg? 🤷🏻‍♂️

It’s undeniable that today women contribute to this problem by saying silly things when asked how to attracted them, including moms.

Moms everywhere tell their sons not to worry about anything. Just to be themselves. Not to worry about style or fitness or being bold. They tell them to repress their sexuality.

So yeah, you are right however you aren’t saying anything different from this take. This take is just showing the other side of the same coin.

[Truthatanycost]

@MySmileIsFierce The 'bithches' part was him quoting what some other frustrated guys often say.

[Crimson811]

I love how a couple of guys gave your comment the thumbs down, I guess the truth hurts.

[Hunter7754]

'Nice Guys' become 'Nice Guys' because a lot of women give shitty dating advice. That's not being anti-women, it's just fact. You don't go to a fish for advice on fishing, you see a fisherman.

I think part of this is because women are afraid to be seen as shallow, so instead of giving advice that actually works, they just say things like "Oh, just be nice". Newsflash, all of us are shallow to a certain extent when it comes to dating, we just don't like admitting it.

[Mistermiracle57]

Why would we get pissed when a woman only sleeps with for your money? Because it's our hard earned money

While it's compliment for a woman if a man sleeps with her for sex because her looks and attractiveness are something she's born with not earned

[Iron_Man200]

That's all well and good, but if women want bad boys to give them fun and excitement then they should stop complaining about men when it backfires on them and end up a being cheated on or end up a single mum. I've known women to date bad boys for the excitement only to end up being used as a punch bag. My cousin is one of them. Women who reject good men for being "boring" don't deserve them anyway. Unfortunately in today's society being a nice person and having the right priorities will make life very hard.

[MattsHerez]

@Mistermiracle57 I didn't say that big dog. I was saying that if a man or a woman befriends you only for your money it would really suck. Why would it not suck is a guy starts being nice to a woman and becomes her friend but she realizes deep down that all he wanted was some of the ass?

[ImalwaysrightOK]

Fuck you.

[ImalwaysrightOK]

@mattsherez

[Anonymous]

There's also the nuance of how you show interest, and how much interest you show. I'd say that a good first approximation should be that you should show interest mostly covertly (i. e. show much more interest covertly than overtly, and in particular close to no overt interest at the beginning of the interaction). This is because too much (overt) interest too fast could kill the attraction or scare her. And by settings up the first meetings as dates only covertly, you allow her to postpone the choice of whether it was overtly a date (so less pressure to make a decision). And lastly, if you get rejected covertly, it may hurt less than an overt rejection.

[englisc]

I think that it's this fear of showing overt interest and overt rejection is precisely the thing that holds nice guys back, which was the point I was trying to make. Everything about their behaviour is about avoiding rejection.

For example, when me and my girlfriend first met, she said "we can hang out as friends". A nice guy would say yes to that, thinking that putting less pressure on her was a good thing and not wanting to "rock the boat" or scare her. But this is why they get friend-zoned also because the more they hang out with the girl as friends the more it solidifies in her head the idea that they're just friends. So I said in response "no, it's a date. I'm not interested in being your friend". Then she asked "why don't you want to be my friend? I just wanted to lessen the pressure" and I just said "I'm just not interested in being your friend, I'm interested in dating you, so it's a date". If she ran off because of that - good.

When guys are so afraid of losing her that's why they play it safe. And how is covert rejection any better than overt rejection? It isn't really, it ends in the same way, only it takes a lot longer. I'd rather get rejected early on and go find another girl than spend a lot of time talking to a girl and dating her for her to say "lets just be friends".

The only time I think covert interest is a good idea is maybe when you meet someone through your social circle. Even then that's another skill most guys don't really have, they don't tend to do much with it.

[Opinion Owner]

I agree with the "knowing where you're at early", and that if she asks you to make the intended status of the meeting explicit, you should.

To your overt "no, it's a date", I would often prefer the slightly more covert "or more" with a smile, the idea still being that the longer you let her postpone her decision, the better your chances are (assuming the date goes well).

It also depends on what you kind of relationships with the girl would interest you. The covert approach has the benefit that it lets you build a friendship in case she's not interested, which I believe to be a good thing since most girls I'd want as girlfriends would also make good friends. There's of course the trap of the one-sided friendship, but if you behave properly, it's pretty unlikely.

Also, I find covert interest easier to show than overt interest. And I believe that guys fail because they don't show interest at all, and covert interest would be sufficient.

In short, I believe the "optimal" behaviour to be: (1) Express covert interest very early. (2) If she responds positively, go on dates, and keep showing more covert interest. I'm not sure there is a point in expressing overt interest before "the talk". (3) If she asks for an overt declaration of interest, do it. (4) If she responds negatively to (1), either befriend her if being her friend is fine by you, or cut ties. (5) If she doesn't respond to (1), start showing interest in a less and less covert way, until it's overt or she gave a positive or negative response.

[Secretgardenblood]

Good take

[Tiffany_Taylor_Made]

This post could be for any guy out there that considers himself a "nice guy" and thinks that's the reason he's being rejected constantly. The problem lies in the fact that what the internet constantly refers to as a "nice guy" tends to have characteristics that aren't attractive to women. Naturally, we aren't solely attracted to niceness because we expect everyone to treat us nicely, as it is a basic human trait. Instead, we are attracted to sexually appealing characteristics such as appearance, confidence, personality, and a show of dominance. The so-called "nice guys" generally tend to lack these traits.

More often than not, their appearance doesn't stand out or they simply don't look attractive. This could range from being dressed in the most dull or ugliest clothes, having poor hygiene, being poorly groomed, out of shape, and so on.
Advice: Luckily for men, it doesn't take much for you to look handsome. Groom yourself, bathe often and wear clean clothes, wear stylish clothes, and get in shape.

Moreover, these so-called "nice guys" tend to lack confidence. They're way too self-conscious, shy, and therefore, too nervous to even approach women. As a result, many even believe that women should approach them instead to make things easier for them, which is a turn off.
Advice: At the end of the day, it's not that serious and you have nothing to lose from approaching a woman. If you get rejected, move on to the next woman. Women are everywhere and the more you approach, the better you'd get at it and the less nervous you'd be.

Many of these "nice guys" tend to lack personality. Women like men that talk to them, engage in many different activities, socialize, and showcase their sense of humor. More often than not, the "nice guy" is anti-social and too shy to engage in any real conversation. If you have a personality that doesn't allow us to laugh with you and engage in the activities that we love with you, then you're not interesting.
Advice: Talk more, socialize, and always attempt to make people laugh and talk about things that interest them. If you want more to talk about, you're required to be interested in many things. People want you around them more often if you have the ability to brighten their day. If you continue to be that shy, reclusive person, you'd be nothing more than an afterthought to most people, including women. Don't ever believe for a second that we see you as this mysterious person that we just have to approach to uncover that mystery about you. We don't care for you. Instead, we're too busy talking to that guy that actually had the confidence to approach us.

These so-called "nice guys" tend to lack dominance. It's like they're the ultimate doormats and let people walk all over them and take advantage of them.
Advice: Always stand up for yourself and try to be a leader in any situation that you can. Like I said before and it really doesn't need much more explanation: women love men that can take charge. If you do all these things while still being able to retain your naturally kind personality, then trust me, women would LOVE you and you'd never have to complain about being rejected for being "too nice" ever again.

[englisc]

100%. Spot on. The dominance thing is also very important and is usually missed. Sometimes even discouraged.

[Florancerose404]

You have written this really well. :)

[Zealashton]

im a nice guy,
i am for kindness
respect
freedom
fairness.
unfortuntly
this world seems to misstreat, disrespect, and more
i could go into examples but i belive you know the groups im talking about right
good
scum people will fuck scum

i am not a bigerking, and i ain't going to fuck a wendys greasy burgers.

i may be a virgin, . and 30 and white, not really my fualt when the person gave birth to you was a litteral fucking slut, that bangs ever dude they see, gets there kid genitally mutiated, aka dirty jews, / doctors, cused me to have a nerualgical shock/ chronic ptsd. depression , then top it off with rittlen, you have a cocktail of of a man
that has tick syndrom zombiefication sydrum, . I don't know what else to call it, everytime im streesssed / exsitied i make wired noises, i uses to cout to a hundred all the time.
i was so ashamed i n school of who i was, in high school. i covered up my face. . when i heard my sister was in my school. i was in a retard class, . so i would dilibertly avoid talking to her. in school, and i was always scard of meeting her in the hallways. for i was littlery an enbarssment,. . being in that retared class was hell. 6 years of hell for me. in the retard class you stayed till 20. at that point, i gave up ever geting any friends, or nothing, being in that , was humiliating, degrading, at home i would watch romance animes, and wished i could have a normal life, . . i would end up crying to sleep, and some night i was afried of death so i can't sleep. i always been afried of death.
every day every fucking waking moment, i think about killing the bitch that gave birth to me.

the message i am saying, and i will always repeate it till i am dead,
i am a product of scum wemon. and she ruined everything.
and people that go out with trash. create people like me.

trash people create more trash.
and children suffer for it.

just look at me, im ur child all grown up
liveing off of odsp goverment money
with tons of problems that can't be fixed. i tried for 9 years to fix them, everything, and now, i give up
i
give
up

[englisc]

That's pretty fucked up, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences.

[Zealashton]

All I'm saying is, a warrning, , don sleep with people you don't know. Unless its a profession prositute.

[englisc]

I agree, however I'd also say don't have sex with a prostitute either. I don't know why any guy would be desperate enough to have sex with a woman, who has probably had sex with a whole bunch of other scummy men that week, who was only pretending to like him because he gave her money. That's disgusting. They're also usually drug addicts, riddled with STDs.

[Zealashton]

Have you ever heard of a profesional prositute, me neather, lols

[lucian_lucian_123]

You are right, this is a good article, but the problem is at least 80% in women mentality and education inherited from one generation to another. There are 2 BIG problems in the human society today. 1. Let's talk about the first one, the cultural and educational part. Media and the legends and the social history created an idealized man with the 007 agent behavior. The masculine myth. BUT the TRUE is that both men and women are mostly the same human beings inside, just the social expectations are completely different and largely highly imbalanced towards men. Also the men, but especially the women, are highly believing the 007 masculine model and are asking and expecting from men all kind of unrealistic things. They simply refuse to understand man is just a human being as them, and have the same fears, shy, self consciousness, despair, upsets, suffering etc. Men are not masculine machines. They don't understand a man life is not that simple and plain as they imagine and see at TV. And also women are pleased and are hiding behind the 007 man legend, because apparently this is simplifying their life, and avoid the unpleasant parts where you must take action and responsibility and even suffer the shame. Is like a drug addiction. They are calling this "feminine behavior model" but in fact is a cultural inheritance. Women are generally hunting for easy life, and ALL the society agrees that they are rightful to search for easy life because they are women. If a man will do that will suffer the highest shame and mocking. All the ugly and bad aspects of a relation or life are left for the man. This story is coming from the past when all the work was physically and women were protected by letting them home to do just the regular house keeping work and children care and cooking. Also the hard work of the house was done by the man. But noways this is no more a reality, so we are still caring the social and cultural things from a few hundreds years ago. We should change this a. s. a. p. Unfortunately nobody has the courage to write a bestseller to explain to the men and women that the epoch ended a long time ago.

[lucian_lucian_123]

2. The second BIG problem is also coming from education, but this time from sexual education. Women and girls do not understand boys and men are different from the sexual point of view. It is a biological FACT, a life's truth not an invention. Men do have a higher sexual drive, maybe even 2x or 3x woman sexual drive. The lack of the possibility to fulfill your needs are leading to high frustration and weird behavior. It is very possible that at least a part from the men sexual machines women are complaining about are in fact very frustrated guys. The FACT that men are sensitive to sex by THEIR NATURE doesn't mean AT ALL that they have nothing else in mind or in heart and don't want a relation for instance. The women do not understand that the need for more sex is not AUTOMATICALLY meaning promiscuity. NOT AT ALL. If you find the good woman fulfilling all that you need you have no reason to break the relation. On the other hand the lack of sexual life in many women are leading later to their relations failure and other things like that. In our current society the men cannot express their sexuality and are oppressed from this point of view. Anything that is sexual is automatically disgusting, bad, ugly and shallow. This is a high injustice done on men, and they accept this with bent heads because they are ashamed, because sex is tagged us untrustworthy. As long as no man will raise to explain, criticize and debate this issue and claim for men to be able to express their natural sexuality, the dark ages and persecution era will continue and both men and women will have a bad life. Why is such a big thing for women to accept men sexuality is different? I really don't understand why women cannot be ever criticized and why we can't have a debate on the sensitive BIG problems. How will ever be any social progress if we refuse any critics and we impose our eventually stupid ideas against other people we don't understand.

[lucian_lucian_123]

Why something so natural in men, the sexual desire, is treated so bad and like a crime or garbage or whatever bad thing you want? Why masculine sexuality is so bad seen? What is wrong with making sex? Is not supposed a man to want to make sex with a woman? What is supposed for a man to do, to be grabbed by yawning while you show him a beautiful woman nude? Is not the sexual desire what is biologically liking the man to the woman?
If you don't stand up and express your opinion against women concepts and thinking, the situation will NEVER end. Neither in 1000 years.

[JackSmy]

Oh, sorry, Uh, I fell asleep, and then again, reading that long-winded novel!
Thanks, though!
Every woman is different, and there is no ONE way, to connect, or like, or whatever!
I find that just being me, and just talking, treating them like friends, people, equals, is the best!
I don't ever approach, expecting anything at all, except maybe meeting someone with some really new, interesting ideas, or hobbies, or food interests!
Maybe we share that, and we like sharing that together, for a while. No expectations, no 'NEED' of anything!
Too many guys assume, that they should just be able to 'get women' and that is where they go wrong! She is not your toy, or possession!
She is a person, a unique and interesting person with her own feelings, desires and likes! It's amazing when you can share some, together, and just enjoy that time, with no expectations!
Sadly, too many guys HAVE expectations!!
Ultimately, be honestly who you are, and if she likes you, maybe you can share some amazing times! If she doesn't like you, just move on, and accept that there are others, and don't get bothered when one doesn't connect!

[englisc]

I know, I tend to ramble quite a bit. Not being outcome dependent is important. That's also a problem most of these "nice guys" have.

[DWornock]

That is all nonsense. It is never about how women are treated. It is always about looks, money, etc. Bad boys are 10's. They don’t mistreat women; they just don’t give a hoot. Super hot, good looking, and athletic Joe Namath fucked hundred of good looking (8's, 9's, and 10's) college girls at Alabama. Women were about as valuable as sand because any day of the week, he could find a girl and she would drop her panties that very night.

Nice guys are 5’s and 6’s. Girls don’t want them anyway. From age 16 to 30, no matter how much they try and no matter how much money they spend, they never find and fuck a pretty girl. Let alone get her to be his girlfriend. If in a one in a billion chance, they did find a pretty girl. She wouldn’t be like sand; she would be as precious as the Hope diamond.

Regardless, since nice guys cannot be good looking or rich, they look for the one thing they can change; i. e., how they treat girls. Therefore, they claim that girls like bad boys because they are not nice.

[englisc]

There are guys who aren't that great looking who don't have a problem getting laid, and there was guys who have everything a woman should want on paper - looks, money - who get fucked over because they're pussies.

It's really about masculine vs effeminate behaviour. Strong vs weak.

Yeah, nice guys focus on how they treat girls, and they misunderstand that because they falsely think that this should mean kissing ass, and that women should want them more for that.

[DWornock]

Oh really? Name one!

[englisc]

I'm talking about examples of people you'll see in real life.

[Anonymous]

The last guys that pursued me were supposedly "nice guys". They also came across as obsessive creeps, but that's not the only reason I turned them down. I honestly don't know what possessed them to even pursue me as I never shown any interest in them. When I'm interested in a guy, I show pretty obvious signs, I don't play games. One of the guys I found to be too needy, and ditto the other guy plus he was too old for me. Neither would leave me alone, and I ended up having to block one, and I think the other got the message. The much older guy even tried to contact me through my work, and he was coming across as a creeper to me. I wasn't attracted to either one of these guys, I consider them to be below average in looks. Neither looked like they put any effort into their appearence either. Also I don't date guys more than six years my senior, and both guys were much older than me. The point I'm getting at is just because you're nice to a woman doesn't mean we owe you something, in fact we don't owe you anything. You may not want to hear that, but its the truth.

[smartman12]

Has it ever occurred to you that what you consider to be below average looks may just be they werent models or body builders and therefore not attractive. That's what so many women do: brush off men way too fast without never giving these men a chance. I've given women I dont find attractive a chance because I didn't want to be single anymore and not go on any dates. I think most women have way too high of standards for looks, which is why so many men including complain about today's women. I've been going to the gym roughly 4 days/wk since I was 14 and run a lot. But yet, I have trouble getting dates. Im bald and that has really sucked and that by itself has prevented me from getting dates. I think women need to lower their standards and be nicer to men who approach them. Also, unless someone like a role model or friend with good communication skills teaches you when to back off from women and when to keep pursuing, you never learn. Blockng a guy like this is a bad idea as it will have a negative consequence on the guy's condfidence. It's sad that in all my years approaching women and getting 99% no's to the pt where I stopped approaching any of you that I've only met 1 women, who just happened to be a bar tender, had sympathy for the amount of rejection men go through because getting an attractive wonen to like you and stay around is extremely difficult. Think about this the next time you consider rejecting a guy you may or may not be attracted to in spite of you potentially being scared of a guy.

[Anonymous]

Agree with most of the stuff up there. Here's a fact that stings though. Some people, whether it be girls or guys, feel as though it's taboo to talk about their feelings, either out of fear of being judged, or the fear of rejection.
What people think doesn't matter. If you want someone or something, you want that, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. If I were extending my hand to reach out for a donut, and someone looked at my fat belly and shook their head, do you think I would be ashamed or stop reaching out for the donut? Hell no, I'm reaching for it!

As for rejection, it's actually a good thing. That does not mean you should aim for it or actively try to achieve it. But you shouldn't walk on egg shells to avoid it either. People often say "it takes a girl 3 seconds to figure out whether she wants to sleep with a guy or not", which can be true for some, but there are plenty who develop feelings over time. That does not mean you should bank on confessing your feelings at the right time. If you feel like approaching a girl and telling her upfront "I'm approaching you because I like you" is the right way, so it is, and her rejecting you does not make your way wrong, it makes her wrong for you. If you feel like waiting a few days, or a few dates in, and then spilling the beans, then that's the right time according to you. The time is right if you feel it is right. And if you never feel it, it means you're either afraid, or don't value yourself enough to realize that it's perfectly normal that you like her.

As for how to go about telling her, it has to be quick and organic, no beating around the bush or manipulation tactics. Don't invest the world into her expecting her to say yes afterwards, and don't take a hungry and desperate approach. Just tell her you like her, and if she rejects you, it's not a red light. It's a green light saying "on to the next girl". And trust me, the next girl is always better. :P

[BigJake]

The real advice is this: mind what women do, not what they say. Women are inveterate liars regarding their sexual desires and behaviors. For anyone who wonders what women want, remember that serial killers and mass murderers in prison have women begging for their attention. Compare that to the scores of quiet, unassuming guys who struggle to get anything going with girls.

The fact is that women are sexually excited by the worst aspects of men, which is why being raised in a Christian home is such poor training for dating today. You have to embrace at least some of the darker parts of your nature to create attraction. It's not what they teach in Sunday school, but it's true.

[englisc]

I agree mostly. I'm not sure that it's about the "worst" aspects of men - only that we're taught that these things are bad.

Women chasing serial killers are an extreme minority. However, these extreme behaviours still tell a lot about the nature of the opposite sex. What does this mean? Well, ask most women why they prefer taller man and they'll tell you "it's because he makes me feel safe and protected". Why would they want to feel protected? That's just how they evolved. Men were always the protectors.

A man and a woman are laid in bed. There's a bang downstairs, someone has broken into the house. There are two ways the guy might react, again extremes:
1) hide with her, afraid, call the police
2) go downstairs with a weapon and beat the shit out of the intruder, perhaps killing him if he's armed

Most women are naturally attracted to guy 2. They're naturally going to lose respect for guy 1 because he acted like a coward.

What does that mean? They're attracted to men who are capable of violence. We're taught that violence is bad, and in many cases it is when it's unwarranted. But in that scenario? It's highly necessary.

As Jordan Peterson said, "a harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very dangerous man who has that under voluntary control".

Women's attraction to killers is just an extreme version of that. Now imagine the bad boy vs the nice guy in the situation I described above. In general, which one is more likely to be which?

I do agree on not listening to what women say. They'll always encourage weak behaviour in men today. The opposite of all I just said.

[BigJake]

When I say worst aspects, I mean our competitiveness, our greed, and our aggression. These are not positive attributes, because these are what lead to criminality, war, and a whole host of anti-social behaviors. There are people in this world who I hate, who I want to kill. These are urges I have to quell in order to live a useful life. I think this is a line most men have to walk in our lives. Our lizard brains are mostly our enemies, because they are the parts of our psyche that lead us to harm. And yet, we have to express at least some of those urges in order to be taken seriously by the other sex. Catch-22.

I disagree that women are attracted to men who are simply capable of violence. They are 100x more attracted to men who actually commit violence. That's why women are so attracted to football players, professional fighters, cops, and soldiers. Violence is attractive to women, often even directly. That's why so many women harbor fantasies of being taken sexually in the most violent ways.

[englisc]

This is where I disagree with you mainly. Those traits are neither good or bad. Competitiveness and aggression especially. Those are natural masculine traits which, if harnessed properly, lead to success in whatever area you apply them to. We're taught that these are bad things because we live in a feminised society.

[BigJake]

Go to places in the world where there are no restraints on competitiveness and aggression, and if you survive the experience, come back and tell me if you have the same outlook you do now. Without the restraint of laws and social mores, society descends into a chaotic hell of id run amok. Competitiveness and aggression will get you ostracized so quickly in the world of work today. These are attributes that must be harnessed if we wish to lead productive lives, because the men who don't figure out how to channel these end up incarcerated or dead.

Where I think you and I disagree is that you're coming from the standpoint that most men are socialized into fecklessness these days. I get that this may be true for some, but it's certainly not for all. I grew up playing football, a sport in which aggressiveness is everything, so I don't see the feminized society that you see. There are huge swaths of society that are dog-eat-dog, where aggression is a matter of survival, and those places are hellholes. Lots of the guys I played with came from those places, and they hated their communities because they literally ate young people alive. So I have a different perspective on aggression altogether.

[emmily2396]

The difference between the "nice" guys and the "bad" is is that the "bad" guys are usually hot and are not assholes in disguise, because they have more women to choose from and don't need to worry about being something they are not to impress. I mean, if they only act nice to get women to sleep with them, are they nice? Nobody ows you sex because you are nice. How about you work on yourself?

I haven't seen a sane woman thing a guy being an asshole is nice. At least not when they first see him, because being stuck in a toxic relationship can happen, the tocix partner wasn't always like that.

Usually, it is guys who are focused on being the best version of themselves that get most women. And yes, "having balls" is seen as hot and manly, you can either show it in a positive way or in a negative way. That doesn't imply you have to be an asshole.

[EABsTUQ]

You guys want good guys not nice guys or bad guys.

[Hunter7754]

"I haven't seen a sane woman thing a guy being an asshole is nice. At least not when they first see him, because being stuck in a toxic relationship can happen, the tocix partner wasn't always like that."

I get these 'Nice Guy' incel type of guys can be cringy but some of it is true to a certain extent. Men in general are usually shamed and viewed as less masculine for displaying behaviors such as meekness, vulnerability, compassion, etc. If we show those, we usually get called gay by men and women.

Men that display traits associated with the concept of toxic masculinity like arrogance, aggression, dominance, apathy, emotional unavailability, stoicism, etc, those are the men that succeed not just in life but especially in dating. Men that display behaviors that aren't included in that list just get ostracized and shamed.

[Bella9191]

No such thing as a nice guy. People don’t fall into nice or a not nice category. That is very simplicitic. Also too many men listen to the wrong messages about what women want. What mainstream media posts about what women want.. is not what they want. It is what society is trying to force women to want. When you understand this. You will have your answer.

[MattsHerez]

There is definitely something known as nice guys. Usually it's a guy that will be so nice to you and friendly with you and you think "Oh nice I have a friend." Then one day after years of this he finally reveals his feelings about how he wants you and you tell him that you're just friends. He then gets mad and it's revealed that actually he's not a nice guy at all. He's a fucking loser who only wanted you for sex. That's a nice guy.

[Bella9191]

@MattsHerez I know. But you can usually see through this instantly. Women like male friends so ignore this. So hence.. no such thing as nice guy

[RolandCuthbert]

I like your advice about being honest. The problem is the fear of rejection is always there. That's why I recommend guys to use friend networks of women. Stop expending so much energy focusing in on one girl. Basically put all women in a "friendzone". And let them do at least half the work. Date often, even if it is not serious. Social as much as possible. Develop your skills and make your move on the women you are really attracted to.

The thing is to never stop until you are in a committed relationship.

But not many men can simply ignore rejection. We are not robots. But we can devise a coping mechanism to get around it.

[Robertcw]

Yep. We are not robots. It still affects me today. I get down at least a few days before I bounce back.

However I don’t like social circles. I am more of an independent so whatever and bounce between circles type of person. I neither here nor there for a lot of people.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Robertcw As long as you can deal with consequences, I don't think anyone would say that is an issue. I think we are speaking specifically about men who want to get better at the dating game. But there are many who are content with their lives as they are.

[Hunter7754]

I agree. Dating is a lot more work as a guy but that doesn't mean we can't find ways to cheat the system so to speak.

Keeping your basket full, (ie talking to as many women as possible) is a good strategy

[Robertcw]

Trust me they aren't consequences. Having social circles actively lowers my quality of life. In most cases, I don't really like people.

I am very independent and actually turn down relationships just because I don't feel like doing it sometimes.

I mostly enjoy getting hit on in public, and then going on with my life. But there are a few exceptions where I actually like them but they are usually already taken or engaged, which isn't surprising because they are actually good people.

Perhaps it takes a good guy to come along and change a girl's perspective and that is what allows her to become what I am drawn too. I don't really know but I think that could be highly possible. I had never considered that until now. Maybe a really positive dating experience is what causes people to become the best versions of themselves and so maybe jumping in with someone isn't a bad idea afterall.

[Robertcw]

However, I have a small group of friends I am close with and they are the type I can call up out of the blue after years and it's like nothing has changed.

They are spread out across the country though, so it's kind of cool actually. I know they have my back if I ever need them, and the same goes for me helping them. We all do our own thing, and they are not mutual friends, but if they call me up or if I call the up then we're as tight as ever.

I get invited to parties 400 miles away and I'm like, man, I'm a little far. xD

[Robertcw]

Hell, one of them is in Indonesia. I'm planning to connect with that guy this summer and his family offered to give me free room and board. Planning on exploring he night life as well as aight seeing.

[Robertcw]

But this is really good advice for the workplace. For personal life? I don't know, it's not for me. I like to be able to shut off and unplug from the world when not at work.

I'm the type to go to the beach on my days off.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Robertcw I am not big on arguing syntax. Call it bladerunning if you have to. Its all the same to me.

[bamesjond0069]

Girls will never stop giving bad advice because its a shit test. Any man who listens to a woman is not suitable romantically. Women will tell you to chop your dick off and then they will get with the man who didn't listen. Get it? They dont want a man so weak he listens to dumb shit.

Its kind of stupid in my opinion but you can't change other people so get over it and be a better man.

[Idonthaveausername]

Lol that's funny, but you make a very valid point with that. Of course a girl wouldn't want to be with a guy that stupid... and a guy shouldn't want to be with a girl who would do the same

[bamesjond0069]

@Idonthaveausername No its opposite. Men and women typically want the man to lead meaning the woman should follow. And thus the shit test is to see if the man will let the woman lead or not when she tries to lead him off a cliff.

[Idonthaveausername]

That has nothing to do with leading. People just don't want to be with idiots. If a girl wants a leader type, she will be submissive, and a submissive girl would never tell a dominant man to do anything, much less cut his dick off

[bamesjond0069]

@Idonthaveausername therfore when she is dating a man like that she will tell him some bullshit just to see if he will. This is called a shit test. Its a very common thing. Google it.

[Idonthaveausername]

I know what a shit test is, but the context you're implying is wrong. While your joke was funny, women aren't going to shit test guys by telling them to cut their dicks off to find a dominant man who possesses leadership qualities. Women looking for leaders won't shit test men like that because they'll wait for the man to lead. If he doesn't take the chance to lead, then she knows he's not a leader

Yes some manipulative women will tell men to do humiliating things, but not without gain. Some women will make men run their feet or buy them food or pick them up from a party drunk after hooking up with another guy. But not because they're looking for a leader. They use those guys because they're weak (the part of your initial argument I agree with) and give those women some benefit. But the main part I disagree with is those types of women don't want dominant men with leaderships qualities. Manipulative women are dominant themselves and prefer to lead in their own relationships with weaker men

[englisc]

@Idonthaveausername

I think they do want a dominant guy but still want to use weak, submissive men. I've been into BDSM for years and obviously there people are more open about such things. I'm dominant but I met a few who were switches, and I'd ask them how that worked. Like did they want a guy who was a switch also (which I wasn't), or would they be dominant/submissive depending on the man. One of them, who I thought was a bit of a cunt anyway, openly said "if he's dominant I'll be submissive but if not I'll walk all over him". I think that's the way those types of women think. They do get with guys who they can boss around but they're still attracted to dominant types, and I think they're most likely to cheat.

[bamesjond0069]

@Idonthaveausername nah very few women want to lead. I've known a few girls who do that stuff with other men but not me. They still want a masculine man but they will walk over any guy that lets them.

[Idonthaveausername]

I get what both of you are saying. Basically manipulative girls with bad attitudes will use weak men and wall all over them. But the majority of women don't "shit test" guys in that way. So yes there are girls like that, but it doesn't invalidate the advice if other women who are respectful and want serious relationships

And lol I wasn't hinting at anything BDSM with that, but I appreciate the viewpoint. Basically your experience is illustrating that women who do like weak men are the type to take advantage of and abuse men

[Anonymous]

What idiot takes advice from women about how to pick up women? How many straight women has your average straight woman successfully picked up? The answer is close to zero.

If you want to figure out what works, find a guy who does well with women and watch him. In fact, find SEVERAL such guys. Because you'll likely learn that they're each successful for different reasons. And while some might be successful for reasons you may find tough to replicate, others will provide useful ideas that you can practice.

[Anonymous]

The nice guy seemed nice the first time I met him. It was a simple hello from him and he informed me he was a cop. Next thing I know he added me on social media. He wouldn’t take no for an answer or cared about how I felt. He told me “I showed a picture of you to my mom.” I told him, “I’m not interested in that way.” This was the day after we met. Then he stalked my sister and found her number and called her telling her “to help her get me.” I was so scared. I didn’t want to tell him off because I was afraid he would find me and hurt me... I finally told him to stop and he was angry and said “why am I not good enough? Good lucking for you bitch?” I blocked him. My parents knew and sister and close friends. But I was scared. The thing you don’t understand and you should respect ebery person because we are human. And most women fear for their life when talking to a guy. You fear rejection and we fear getting threatened.

[Iron_Man200]

That's as ridiculous as saying that most men fear being falsely accused of rape every time they talk to a woman. Grow up.

[MattsHerez]

I’m sorry but that is completely untrue. I’m sorry to hear that a guy was weird and harassing you but most women do not fear for their life when talking to a guy.

[winterfox10]

Why do people keep writing MyTakes about this stuff? You want to be treated like a man? Act like adult who can decide what he wants for himself. Take ownership of your actions. Believe in yourself. Make decisions because YOU want to make them. If a woman tells you she wants you to make a change, you think long and hard about whether or not that change is true to the man you want to be, and if it doesn't work for you; you let her know that in the most respectful way you can. Reassure her through your actions that you live YOUR life, and that her valued contributions are more than appreciated.

[awesometjgreen]

Sir I wish I knew you so I could give you a hug. This is so well written. The problem for me though is finding the girls. Girls always seem so cold and when I see them talking to the asshole type guys I get discouraged and move on.
Also I want to say that most of the so called, "bad boys" Aren't even really that bad. I've been mistreated by a lot of assholes from both genders but I've also met a lot of nice tall football player rich guys that are very polite and don't treat people like shit. They have women mostly because they are attractive/have confidence and charisma

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Good take. Well reasoned and not of the usual "edgy"/ fem-bashing tone a lot of these takes wind up as. I so agree with "it just happens" as a female experience. Men do the up front work of showing interest and making move SO THE GIRL DOESN'T HAVE TO.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

P. s. i just authored a my take covering this topic from a somewhat different angle, in case anyone interested Why "Bad Boys vs. Nice Guys" is a pointless and counterproductive debate ↗

[Mamamialetmego]

It's not about being nice it's about being timid, insecure. Women don't want timid, insecure guy (biological resons) they want little bit more aggressive confident guy. Bad boys attract women because of this. Nice guys don't even approach women. You can be both good, nice person and confident, aggressive, outgoing guy and women still desire you. Look at guys like Jason Momoa, Chris Hemsworth etc. beside their looks they are good, nice people but they are confident, aggressive as well. You can be like that. If you are confident, assertive and nice, good cool person and women don't want you then you don't need those women.

[jss123]

Nice guys struggle with women because they're not attractive enough. I've been bluntly told that by women. I'm called the nicest man they know but they're not interested in dating me. All those women who said that went for attractive bad boys. Some are in abusive relationships but stick it out because he is attractive. I'd rather be single now. A lot of women are just as shallow as they claim men are. The stupid thing is looks fade very fast and you're left with the abusive bad boy. One of these women I mentioned lets him use her car everyday and must find her own way home even though her works near her and they end work at the same time. She apologises for every little thing. The unfortunate thing is bad boys are often very narcissistic.
In this dating climate I'd rather be single..

[Giggletr0n]

All very good points but most true "nice guys" will block out any advice with hate speech or arrogance and set themselves up to fail with stupidly high standards for women, like only wanthing to date models or something while they themselves look like a foot that hasn't been washed in a decade!