The REAL Reason Why Chivalry is Dead

[geonator]

"You need to open the door for her. Not because she can't, but because she shouldn't have to."

This is the kind of thing I've heard quite a bit from people who hold more traditional romantic values (either that, or they are a woman who wants to be treated a certain way, or they are a man who want women to think of him a certain way). Opening the door for a woman is, technically, a good way for a man to be unselfish. Both men and women are supposed be unselfish. Arguably not in the exact same ways, but it stands.

The statement "...not because she can't, but because she shouldn't have to" is basically another way of saying that she's entitled to have the door open for her. While it is unselfish for men to open the door for her, and I would encourage it, I discourage women from having the attitude that they are entitled to it. Entitled attitudes are contrary to unselfishness, and women are also supposed to be unselfish.

The thing is, a lot of these traditional people (or selfish women, or men with agendas) say things like this, basically thinking subconsciously that because women are beautiful and special, we are supposed to just give them things they want without challenging them. That's the exact same mentality parents have when the spoil their kids, instead of challenging them to be unselfish.

I don't mind paying for dates. I don't mind opening the door for a girl. I don't mind buying a girl presents. I don't mind pulling out the chair for a girl.

But I do mind being in a one sided relationship, where I try to be unselfish while she believes that she is entitled. If she believes that I should pay for dates and she should cook and clean, at least she also has expectations of herself. But if she thinks she's entitled to special treatment without being challenged, because she's a woman, she will not only never be more than friends with me, but she will always be less than friends with me.

So the real reason why Chivalry is Dead is not because all men suck and treat women poorly, even though a lot of them do. Also, there is just no discussion of where the boundary is, how to treat a woman like she's special while also challenging her to be unselfish. Many women want to be unselfish, and they haven't been taught to balance their expectations. Many men want to be chivalrous, but haven't been taught to treat a woman like she's special but not like she's entitled.

Seriously guys. Both people need to be unselfish. If you or your partner is selfish, break up with them.

[Xoxocutekitty]

I agree with this. I also agree that not wanting to accept chivalry in the "traditional" ways is okay, and should be accepted the same way that a person with a dairy allergy will not really want a regular cake, no matter how much you want to give it to them.

I think you can accept or not accept acts of chivalry (centuries old subscripts of nice things men can do for women to show their interest and consideration), but both parties need to be on the same page about it. I don't need a man to open a door for me, the same way I don't want to be expected to "give him something" for it. A courteous thank you is polite, and yet even by doing that there is often a subtext that encourages him to do and expect more when in fact, I was being polite. I open doors for men (many are often taken aback by it, some will even refuse to enter), and there is no subtext of expectation. I think people should develop (and they do) their own courtship rituals whether it is showing up with flowers, or on time, or without work on their mind.

I think both parties should be aware of what really "speaks" to the other person and makes them feel good. Otherwise it is very easy to get into the cycle of "I did this for you, what do you mean you don't want or appreciate it?" and the other person is like "well, you sort of assumed, and now I don't like your entitled attitude." I think chivalry can make people feel really good and wanted and its a matter of talking about how people want to be treat each other.

[MzAsh]

It’s natural for men to treat beautiful women like they are special because to those men, they are in fact special. It’s pure nature. However, in a relationship, women should find a way to reciprocate the appreciation in her own way.

Chivalry or not, we can all be kind and courteous without expecting anything back. No one needs their dick sucked for opening the door. A simple thank you is in order. If that’s a problem, I will happily open it myself. Thankfully there are still good people around (both men and women) who will open and hold the door as it’s just a mindful thing to do.

[Fulbau]

we're in 2020, where we promote equality between men and women: equal rights, equal treatment, equal pay, etc. and I think that's great.
Though historically this is quite different from how things used to be. Men used to be the ones that worked while women stayed home and cooked and cleaned and raised the children. Men could vote, women couldn't. Women washed clothes and entertained men, men hunted and waged war.
Of course that's in the past, these days women are in our armed forces, men can stay home to cook and clean, etc.
I think chivalry is MOSTLY dead because as both are now seen as equal, neither really needs 'special' attention or treatment.
That being said though, being courteous is always a nice trait to have. If you see someone with a disability having trouble opening a door, or even just choosing to hold a door open for any other man or woman is a nice thing to do. Is it common? Likely not. Is it FULLY dead? Not quite.

[genericname85]

chivalry is dead, cause women want to be seen as equal. being equal doesn't fit with getting special treatment. they killed it.

[geonator]

A lot of them practice selective traditionalism, where they want men to do the traditional things for them while also being equal to them

[genericname85]

yes. a lot of that refects in their expectation that men pay the bill on a date, yet they demant equal pay on the job. i wouldn't just call it "selective traditionalism", i would call it "cherry picking traditions".

[OlderAndWiser]

Chivalry is not dead because there are some who practice it. I am willing to treat a woman like a queen but I expect to be treated like a king. If a woman does not reciprocate, I don't cease being chivalrous;. I simply start looking for another woman.

[Guy13]

The number one thing to remember that it is not about Self. As a guy it is not about what I think is best for her. I have no right to get upset if she finds it inappropriate, distasteful, or downright stupid. Know your woman...

The exact same goes for the Woman. What she thinks is good for us to enjoy or like may not be. Back off and receive the truth without crumbling and punishing the Male.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I look at chivalry a bit differently. For me the quote that sums it up is: "It's better to be a samurai in a garden, than a gardener on a battlefield."

In other words, a man should make himself formidable, like a soldier, capable of exerting his power on the world if need be. But he should also develop the self-restraint and respect for others that enables him to "keep his sword sheathed", so to speak, and never need to abuse that power.

Now let's look at the "should we hold doors open for women?" dilemma through this lens of being "the samurai in the garden". If a man knows his own strength, and is secure in that, and doesn't feel the need to show it off or defend it constantly... then holding the door open would be nothing to him. He loses nothing through the act, and offers the courtesy because he has enough self-security that he can show small acts of deference to others, without being weakened by the act. (To carry on the metaphor, you might think of this as the Samurai bowing to the gardener as they pass each other.)

But what if the man is weak, and selfishly clings to his desire for power by refusing to show any sign of humility to other people (as weak men are prone to do)? Well, either he'll hold the door open and feel resentful about it afterwards, or he'll make a point of not opening the door at all, and patting himself on the back for "not being a beta cuck" or some shit. He's just a gardener lost on a battlefield, and he's doing the only thing he can think to do-- burrowing a hole in the ground and crying at how unfair are his circumstances.

Done properly, chivalry can be an extension of a man's inner strength. Just like how samurais took lessons in art, history, philosophy, etc. And the same as how European Knights developed complex rules for chivalry as a counter-balance to their battle-hardened formidability, and authority over peasant classes. But when weak men try to co-opt the outer displays of chivalry-- without developing the underlying formidability and self-restraint-- then they bastardise chivalry itself, and women see right through the act.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Also, this is why I believe chivalry can never truly "die". Because as long as there are strong men, there will also be a societal necessity to keep that strength "in check", such that it doesn't become out-of-control and/or abusive. If chivalry is "dying", it's because men are getting weaker, NOT because we're "waking up to misogyny" or any of the other crap feminist explanations for "why chivalry is sexist to women". That said, when the men in a society become weak, women seem to have a tendency to grow more "entitled", and so they might start making unreasonable demands and expectations of men. And the men are too weak to say "no" to the unfair expectations, so it becomes a negative feedback mechanism where women get more entitled and men get weaker. So what you're saying isn't without validity. If a society is so far gone that all the men are spineless, and all the women are becoming crabby and demanding, then some kind of corrective action is needed to reset the balance. But strengthening oneself should be primary, because without strength, humility and chivalry have no functional value or purpose. They're just "nice things" we do in hopes that a girl might think we're a "nice guy". Somehow I doubt samurais or knights ever had reason to worry about "will I look like a wimpy nice guy if I act chivalrous?". They KNEW they were warriors deep down, and the woman knew it too, so there was no need to flex their biceps and beat their chests, just as there was no need for them to pander to women and follow them round like obedient lapdogs. Chivalry was just a social means of letting people around them know that their strength wasn't tainted with malevolence.

[Jaximus-Lion]

HAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious. Speak for the ones who gave up on being decent people , not just men but people as both genders men and women. Where i live both men and women are decent , there is no need to be a title , just be decent. I do my part! I have no reason no to hold the door for few extra 3-4 seconds like you wrote (unselfish) it's very simple thing to do. This one sided thing is not as i thought here in Sweden, mostly both sides to take part on taking care of each other. I am and will always be a gentleman but if you really piss me off (it's not that easy though) i will handle it things in a different ways, so i like to show appreciation specially for my lady and i do treat others with good manners and am a sarcastic guy so if an asshole comes around i just have their own medicine ready to use and they just go away after 10 seconds. At the same time my lady takes care of me and shows her appreciation to me by doing something else. I don't need people recognition for the things i do, i don't need any title either, i am a decent guy and i have my scale on manners, do's and don'ts and most importantly make that one special lady the one for me for the rest of my life and so far! It's not that hard.

[Anonymous]

I agree with some of this, but in my opinion the answer is really a little more simple than all of that. You eluded to the fact that chivalry is essentially treating women like they are special. And that is spot on, because women were special in the past, and they deserved to be treated as such.

But women are no longer special. In fact, they have worked very hard to NOT be special, and their efforts toward that end have been very fruitful. Women have earned the right to not be treated differently. Put another way, women have lost the right to be treated as special, and men have lost the motivation to treat women as special.

Why is that? Well, women have essentially shunned all the qualities that made them so precious to men in the past, and/or they now expect the same things form men. They no longer do any of the things that made them special to men in the past, such as cooking, housekeeping, without expecting men to do the same things. The only things women offer men now that are still special are sex and childbirth.

Since most men are not wild about subjecting themselves to the dearth of rights that comes with being a father, that pretty much leaves sex, which is available to men without putting forth the things that used to make men special. And that is how we find ourselves in our current unpleasant situation.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

I want every guy that thinks chivalry it's just another social norm to benefit women to get inside a cabin, together with every girl that thinks that for some reason it's a concept that opresses them. Please all get insed get nice and confortable while I block the exists and set it on fire!

Forget that ancient defenition of chivalry. Today is just being a polite and well mannered gentleman. It is not some social norm to appeal to women!

I feel manly as hell doing this. I am the man!

Being chivalrous is just being a boss ass man!

Yes, that includes paying for dinner, holding a door for her and other sympathies. I once runned more than five minuts in heavy rain just to get my car to a restaurant entrance, just so my girlfriend wouldn't get wet since we didn't had an umbrella. Are you afraid that because of feminism women will dislike this and be offended and yell at you? Great no second date bullet dodged! See how easy it is?

[jestergent]

You make me bust out laughing.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

@jestergent feel free to tell me why. So that I can laugh next.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Yep pretty much. It can even apply to the same gender. I remember on my visit to America, I was staying with friends who live over there, a husband and wife. The husband paid for every single meal we ate when going out to restaurants-- and believe me, I REALLY insisted on picking up every check after the first meal out. He wouldn't hear a word of it, not even in an arrogant way, it was just clear from his body language and his resolute attitude that "you're our guest, I've got this". I hope someday I'll be able to return the favour, but at the time I was just thinking "now THAT'S how a man picks up the check" lol. If he then took his wife out to dinner the next night, and started insisting that they split the bill, or that she pay for it "because gender equality", then it would just kill the whole impression I'd built up of him. There's such a thing as being an "alpha provider", but guys today seem to think that any kind of "providing" for a woman makes them weak and subservient and a "beta". But girls don't wanna fuck the guy who clutches his pearls ranting on about "you wanted gender equality, now pay your half for it!". If I have one raincoat only, and my date and I are about to walk out into the rain, and she only has the clothes on her back... then you'd better believe I'm giving her my raincoat to wear. It's actually the MORE "alpha" thing to do in that scenario, coz what kind of beta male pussy can't handle a bit of rain AND make his date go wet and cold "because gender equality"? Men need to stop taking their behavioural cues from contradictory feminists. They claim to hate the feminists so much, yet they seem all too eager to just take the feminists at their word, and start treating ordinary women based on how they'd treat the most militant feminazis.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

don't get me wrong though, if I turned up to a blind date and was greeted by a feminazi, I'd cut the date short long before ordering starters lol... I still have my standards xD

[DeeDeeDeVour]

I appreciate men who respectfully treat their mothers well. That tells me a lot about their good-natured character. I usually find chivalry, courtesy, respect & more in men who are genuinely kind to their mothers. Fortunately, I'm surrounded by men like that in my life. My dad, brothers, husband & my husband's brothers are that way. <3

[Adam1978]

Just one problem women aren't special to the man from the moment he meet them. Unless he is really desperate. So why would you treat them special? You should treat everyone with respect and in a good manner, until they have proven they aren't worth it. So if she wants to be special she needs to become special for him. It's not something you just get for free instantly.

[MannMitAntworten]

"You need to open the door for her. Not because she can't, but because she shouldn't have to." I have never once heard this. I must have grown up in a parallel universes because men and women alike hold doors open. Heck, even little kids hold doors open. Boys & girls alike. It’s just a kind courtesy. A gentrification if you will. Not some form of misunderstood battlefield or at “court” code of conduct that is colloquially called, “Chivalry”.

[Reaperbot666]

this might help a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/CNtrint9vGw

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8246085/Five-year-old-children-inherently-sexist-study-claims.html

[I-am-a-nobody]

It's OK. I'll open the door for her. If she doesn't want me to, I don't care. I like treating women special and they tend to treat me special back. If girls don't treat you special back, you need to hang out with different girls.

[ZackBan]

Chivalry didn't die of old age. It was brutally murdered by the new "norm" of how women are supposed to be viewed.

[FlirtWithMeeee]

So true... so true... it boils down to egocentrism.

[dragoblack]

Ancient chivalry is definitely dead. But the moderised version of is just the basic gentleman stuff of being respectful

[Mystic_Nova]

I love when men bring up the door concept. I love how basic human decency is considered some grand gesture.

Lmao its hilarious

[Mystic_Nova]

Also, this means women should do the same. That's why it's so funny. I can't see why people think the basic social edict is considered chivalrous. Are we really expecting so little of people these days?

[themythos]

I opened the door for a girl a while ago and her response was "Im Gay". My brain coudnt figure out how to respond.

[crazy8000]

The best thing to respond with is "What are you talking about? "

[themythos]

I ended up saying. "Ok?"

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

You should've said "so am I", she'd be tripping over herself to apologise and you can just laugh on the inside :P

[Anonymous]

You forgot:

#metoo And
Feminazi movement.

[Liam_Hayden]

Chivalry isn't dead. It is reserved for those who are worthy of it.

[Browneye57]

Another good take. Excellent.