Men: Avoid Online Dating Apps!

[SunnyFlorida]

Men should avoid online dating apps because the dating apps will remove your most valuable asset: confidence with women. Online dating websites will make most men beggars with women because the ratio of men/women highly favors men. The non-personal nature can cause women to become flakey in choosing men.

As an experiment, a male friend and I created a woman's profile on a popular dating app. We wrote a well simple profile for a 20 year old, Caucasian woman, who was in college, working part-time in an office, and looking for a monogamous relationship. We answered every profile question, so the profile was a complete and used proper English. We had unique photographs of a pretty woman, who was about 5'6", slender build with B cup, long brunette hair. The website was free. The dating website's search engine showed there were about three times as many men as women on the website in the 18 to 30 age range.

The results blew our minds away. Less than 24 hours later, we had over 100 messages from men. We did not read or open all of the messages (it was overwhelming), but some were well thought out where the men invested time writing a detailed, customized response. The dating app allowed users to see if a user had logged on, if messages were opened or deleted. We never responded to any of the messages and did not delete any messages during the experiment. By day two, we received repeat messages from about ten of the men from day one, saying they noticed that we logged in and were following up. By day two we had over 200 messages from different men. The response was overwhelming - literally. We closed the account around day three, we felt bad for the guys.

Online dating has become a billion dollar a year industry. Online dating highly favors women because of the ratio of men to women; fewer women are comfortable meeting strangers on the internet. Online dating promises an endless supply of men, so many women do not respond and become overly picky. For instance, with online dating a women can limit matches to men who are only 6 foot tall or taller; that height requirement eliminated about 85% of the male population. Women can't do the same in person. 99% of women are shorter than 6 feet, so as long as your are taller than the woman, you are nearly as good as 6 foot tall in-person.

Below is the reverse experiment where an 18 year old woman tries being a man online dating and discovers how flakey women can be in responding.

My suggestion is to meet women in real life, the way our parents did it. Go shopping at WalMart or Target. Go to a shopping mall. Volunteer at an animal shelter. Go to a dog park. Circulate and meet women. Say hi.

[Anonymous]

I tried the fake account to see what it's like on the other side.
It's crazy. I even made it overly simplistic with one or two word answers to profile questions -- utterly basic, but with a cute pic. And I get like 30 messages from men and women in that first night and, like 120 by the end of the week -- for doing nothing.

Meanwhile, on my actual profile, I do that ridiculous thing women expect -- making profound introduction messages to grab attention or impress or whatever. I spend like 20-30 minutes on each girl picking the perfect 3-5 line message with an introduction, a joke, a comment on common interests, a compliment -- all that kind of stuff trying to be respectful, tasteful, and funny. But still I got like a handful of replies a week tops, and far fewer that get a second response. Got like 1 date, ever, from an app, and it was not good. Technology exacerbates the regular discrepancies between men and women, that environment promotes toxicity in women and disillusionment in men.

[NicoletteXO]

It's toxic for everybody.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO But we can be more specific than that. There are specific ways in which it affects men and women, men become disillusioned, resentful, disheartened, and women become toxic, egotistical, and misguided.

[AmandaYVR]

I'm glad you did the experiment. Many have, and all attained the same results.

However, there is one issue with your interpretation - receiving "a handful of replies" is a good response. And you not being happy with that (because you're comparing the other to massive volume) means that you are missing the point of dating apps meant for finding genuine relationships (not hookups.) Humans cannot multitask. Not technically. It diffuses their attention and quality of focus on ALL tasks. And this is the way many men treat women online. They want volume, they want choices, themselves. But having a few people to get to know... even that is a lot, can divide one's time, and mind. Players want tons of options. People looking for love will (and need to) invest more in the individuals.

[Opinion Owner]

@AmandaYVR
"People looking for love will (and need to) invest more in the individuals."
The point is the that are NO individuals to get to know.

I was being generous with "handful" to cover my bases, it would usually be like 1 a week. But that includes the single replies that don't go beyond that. It's 50 attempts at thoughtful messages for 1 *interaction* per week. Even before considering the context of what's happening on the other side, that's obviously no way to live. But the greater context does exist and is will be considered ass well.

Options means being able to pick who you want to get to know. It means you can pick people depending on what you want. Having options is not an alternative to getting what you want, it's a precursor. Even excluding getting relationships from dating apps, simply having choices and being able to get things you want is highly impactful on self-esteem. It's power, it's confidence. I get the feeling that many of these women don't know what it's like to go without getting something you want. Meanwhile I don't think I've ever gotten what I wanted -- never had a truly satisfying experience with a girl. I think the vast majority of women don't have a reference for that.

The specifics of my case aside, the bigger picture is that I'm not alone, I'm in the same ball park as so many men, my experiences are not an anomaly, they very much conform to a trend.

[AmandaYVR]

Ok. Points taken. And well said.

I don't know if anyone could have predicted this is how things would go, where we would now be. It's been a confluence of influences, and I guess sort of events. I know men are angry and frustrated and disillusioned and depressed; and rightly so. I mean that.

But the gamification of life online, and frankly that asshole up in Silicon Valley who first came up with the idea of Tinder... these have nothing to do with the girls. I thought that the dating apps were going to give men the advantage, because men are so visually influenced, and I thought that the girls would post their pictures and it would be more of a cattle call, where the guys had the choice. Man was I wrong. The guys loved this whole game so much, they almost all did it, and that gave the girls the advantage, simply based on the law of numbers. The idea that all these men want them (which is really just have some vague initial interest) is fucking with their heads. And on the flip side, the girls know that the guys are playing a numbers game.

Don't you think the whole concept is sort of disgusting? The internet is this amazing thing that connects anyone and everyone from all around the globe. It's a place to share information, experiences, broaden our minds, even open our hearts. But it also dehumanizes. It's rank and file, everyone gets a number, rating, everyone votes. Popularity has never been so quantifiable. It disgusts me. 85% of men are eliminated on dating apps if the girl selects 6'+. And then they have the nerve, and gall, and audacity, to come on here and justify their shallowness. Wdf.

[AmandaYVR]

But I also don't believe they (I'm speaking of different girls now) think every single guy is not good enough for them. It's "a lot of work" going through every single profile. Because when a girl does respond, she's not going to just look at photos and skim a profile. They put more time into reading them (they've tracked and compared eye scans of the genders), and you know how it is with girls scoping guys' social accounts. It all takes a lot of time with that many to go through, and they get tired and don't come back for a while. With that volume, they just can't.

Before ~ ten years ago, humans did not find each other this way. There was crossing paths in person, meeting through work or school or hobbies, and you got to use all your senses to discover each other. (Sounds great, right?) But it wasn't great. It wasn't easy. You didn't have a ton of choice. You didn't know who was interested and who wasn't. Unless it was in a bar, you never knew. Nobody ever really feels like the people are just lined up for them.

It's interesting now, how you all appear to have so many choices. How convenient, to have everyone lined up and collected in so many apps. But turns out a bunch of tech nerds in Silicon Valley, as good programmers and data scientists as they are, do not have the capability to make two people like each other, or fall in love, or learn how to compromise, build a life together, not kill each other on vacation, and all the other stuff of life.

[Opinion Owner]

@AmandaYVR “Don't you think the whole concept is sort of disgusting?”
Part of it. On men’s side it seems tragic, men are lost hoping for satisfaction that never comes, and on women’s side they make themselves uglier in a number of ways by receiving and indulging in men’s attention, and that’s the gross part.

“It wasn't easy. You didn't have a ton of choice.”
It seems that way, yet we all had crushes on people we knew. Despite how comparatively small our connections were, we never seemed to have a problem finding someone genuinely alluring – much more that was you experience online. I think it got harder in adulthood, but the only thing necessary seems to be for people to be around a bunch of other people, and someone you like will truck on in. I think there needs to be better ways of meeting people than bars as well as online. Bars have their own context, and really there’s a lot of the same shit there as online. But I don’t know what the alternative is. Going after women at work is a minefield for men, same for meeting strangers. Going after friends, from what I can tell is frequently offensive those women. There doesn’t seem like there’s any way to pursue a specific outcome. No do x, get y. Just stumble around getting hurt until something decent happens.

[NicoletteXO]

That's your opinion. I disagree.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO Well some opinions are more valid than others.
Fortunately, we have objective reality as our yardstick.
Go make a fake profile for an average guy and play it out, see what happens.

[Opinion Owner]

@SunnyFlorida Here's another woman who did a similar experiment.

[NicoletteXO]

Interestingly, I actually did that yesterday. That is, created a fake account as a man, just to see. I even had a number of women message me first. So objective reality is that it is not as hard as you seem to think. Try getting intelligent women - not silly 18 year olds - to do this experiment.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO Follow it through, see how it goes.
But somehow I doubt your choice of guy to pose as is representative.

[NicoletteXO]

Look, that's a fair comment. I didn't choose a pic of a guy who was like 'male model' attractive. He was like a decently good looking dude, I'd say above average, but not crazily so. That would have helped my chances. However, to pretend that's it's super impossible to get any response at all is false. It may be hard because men don't know what to say to women. But if that's the case, then instead of disparaging someone like me, they might do better by actually taking notes!

One thing I will say; and this is something which surprised me... of the women that did message me first, most of their intros were lame. They were like the stupid "hey how are you" shit I get from guys. It was annoying. So... from this I will just say, people of ALL genders need to lift their game. These "hey" things have got to go.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO But that wouldn't be something that would deter a guy. That's your thing, not what guys are, so talk to that girl.

Getting some first messages and getting some replies is normal -- that doesn't mean everything fine.

[NicoletteXO]

Please clarify what your complaint is then. I simply disagree that dating apps make women egotistical and misguided, and make men disillusioned. I think there is disillusionment occurring for both men and women. And there are men and women who can be egotistical on apps. Men are not uniquely hard done by.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO The stark disparity in interest, options, interactions, power, effort, etc. The excessive favorability to women in this whole situation and it's negative impact.

[NicoletteXO]

Well, as I mentioned, I took a shot "from the other side", and I did just fine. There isn't as much of a stark disparity as you think. Or at least, there wouldn't be, if the men actually took good advice from women like me instead of idiot 18 year olds girls with terrible game. I am not denying that there isn't some DIFFERENCE in the space - men are typically expected to initiate more than women. But I don't see a problem with that, considering how much energy, money and time it takes an attractive woman even to create the picture which would encourage men to initiate. The average woman's makeup kit is worth hundreds to thousands of dollars. She also had to experiment over years, spending tens of thousands, if not hundred of thousands, of dollars to look like she does. Women also bear the burdens of childbirth and so on. So yes, I think that it is reasonable that men are expected to demonstrate some effort that in the moment might look like a slight 'disparity', but actually isn't when we consider the full picture.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “There isn't as much of a stark disparity as you think.”
Your one-day attempt in men’s shoes isn’t representative. We have a much greater sample size to draw from. It’s not like this is new. It’s been studied for years, we have a bunch of statistics to tell us about what’s happening with young men.

“considering how much energy, money and time it takes an attractive woman even to create the picture”
Wow. Now that’s a bananas opinion.
1. Attractive won’t *don’t* need to spend money on makeup, and spending more money doesn’t reflect upon a given women well.
2. Men are more interested in what you look like without it.
3. No one asked you to fork out for that stuff, and to act like you’re spending my money before we even know of each other’s existence is dogshit way to act. Expressing attitudes like that harms your case.

“She also had to experiment over years, spending tens of thousands, if not hundred of thousands, of dollars to look like she does.
Yet, I didn’t ask her to, and the guys on these apps aren’t, and it’s such a ridiculous position to think I should have to pay for the stuff she likes to do to herself. That’s a rabbit hole I don’t think you want to go down. If you’re going to argue about making an attractive picture, then how about you pay for my degrees? Women typically value education in men and I’ve invested more into education than women have into makeup.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “Women also bear the burdens of childbirth and so on.”
Yet men do the work which sustains them and is expect to protect them. There’s more to being a parent than giving birth, it’s a team effort. And that wouldn’t a valid argument for any man or woman not interested in having kids anyway, so what’s their excuse?

I may look like a “slight” disparity to you but actually it’s a glaring one, and you not being able to see it illustrates that. It is an example of the toxicity I’m talking about – the utter denial that there’s things are broken when they’re in your favour.

Before you decide this is just me talking shit. Let’s reflect again on you believing that women spending money on makeup has anything do with men (after all, don’t we hear time and again that “women do it for themselves, not men”?). I said women were “toxic, egotistical, and misguided” which perfectly *chef’s kiss* describes that perspective you and many other girls hold.

[NicoletteXO]

Everything you've said about women and makeup is dead wrong. It's too irritating to explain to you the details, since you are clearly not open to the reality - which is that almost every single woman who you think is "naturally beautiful" and not wearing makeup actually is. She's wearing the best quality most expensive stuff so you can't tell.

My suspicion is that you are like many of the other men here who just seek to bitch and moan, and are not up for solutions. If that's the case, I'll leave you to it.

However, if you actually want solutions to this supposed 'disparity' I will give them to you out of the kindness of my heart.

If you give me ANY person you know who is having a shit time on dating apps, I will help them improve their results. If I can't get them a date, I will eat my hat (metaphorically) and I will pay YOU $5. Seriously. That is how confident I am that your premise is bullshit.

[Opinion Owner]

“which is that almost every single woman who you think is "naturally beautiful" and not wearing makeup actually is”
Oh I realize that women wear fake faces, those are not the people I’m talking about. That’s just women not understanding. The women I’m talking about are attractive without makeup. What you’re talking about is women who try to look “fake naturally attractive” with make up. And let me state it plainly, if they can wash off the that “natural beauty” then *literally* that’s not the person I’m talking about. Women seem to really struggle with the concept of what men mean when they say look good without makeup, so you’re not alone. Interrogate further if needed.

“My suspicion is that you are like many of the other men here who just seek to bitch and moan, and are not up for solutions.”
I’m interested in solutions, the start of my solution is like the original poster said: avoid online dating apps. I see this talk as you only now wading into the problem and thinking of the first solutions men thought up when they first encountered this. The paths you’re looking at have been well-travelled and explored. I think you’re just late to arrive and are a few steps behind where the discourse is at.

“If you give me ANY person you know who is having a shit time on dating apps, I will help them improve their results.”
Improving what someone gets from nothing to a pittance does not validate your position. Addressing individual cases is ultimately not an attempt at a solution, it’s a reinforcement of the status quo. You need a large-scale solution.

But do try the experiment anyway, record methods and collect a bunch of before/after data and we can crunch the numbers.

[NicoletteXO]

So, in sum: you don't want to be on dating apps. As I said, fine.

However, you still want to moralistically chime in about it, and make pronouncements about the terrain you are not even currently involved in.

You won't actually bother to engage in an experiment with me with a friend of your choice. You are completely stuck in your own bubble of preconceived ideology and dismissive of empirical investigation.

You simply want to be vindicated in the idea that men are aggrieved. Super lame.

If you and your buddies had bad luck with apps, it's no surprise why. Your mind is closed, you rebuff generosity, and you look at the negatives. Any man who was engaging with me in good faith would WANT to know if it were possible to radically alter a man's results by shifting things like approach and languaging. That would be a boon for men - since it would allow them to have success and ease in a realm many of them struggle in. But you are not interested in the flourishing of the relationships between men and women. You only wish to be affirmed in your negative ideology.

And no, you have no idea about makeup. You really, really don't.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “However, you still want to moralistically chime in about it, and make pronouncements about the terrain you are not even currently involved in.”
Yes. I’ve seen the landscape before and I pay attention to the discourse to enough to know that it’s still awful.

“You won't actually bother to engage in an experiment with me with a friend of your choice.”
Yet, you don’t seem to be willing to do the experiment properly. It’s your proposal that sucks, not a lack of interest in investigation on my part.

“You simply want to be vindicated in the idea that men are aggrieved. Super lame.”
And you need them not to be.
Good rally.

“Any man who was engaging with me in good faith would WANT to know if it were possible to radically alter a man's results by shifting things like approach and languaging.”
You seem to not grasp that they’ve already been through that. We’ve seen how that plays out. But the bigger problem you’re ignoring is that doing that doesn’t fix the landscape. You’re trying to put a band-aid on a tumour.

“since it would allow them to have success and ease in a realm many of them struggle in”
Except not only did that not work at the outset (disregarding the predictable ways if fails in the long-term, if it even got that far), it wouldn’t even approach a fair and equitable situation. Feeding some of your slaves well to convince the rest to be cooperative doesn’t change the reality of enslavement.

“But you are not interested in the flourishing of the relationships between men and women.”
You’re the one who wants to maintain a toxic one-sided status quo. Sounds like a pot calling the kettle black situation.

“And no, you have no idea about makeup. You really, really don't.”
It wouldn't matter, my argument doesn’t hinge on knowing anything about makeup. I could be entirely ignorant about it and still be right. That you think knowing about makeup has anything to do with it shows you can’t even represent my position, let alone begin to argue against it.

[NicoletteXO]

Seriously, I might as well be having this discussion with a potato. You actually think that you not knowing anything about makeup has no relevance in a discussion in which it takes centre stage. You're ideologically possessed and not open to reason, logic or empiricism. Sad.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO Absolutely, you just didn't listen to the argument and straw-manned it. Both wearing and not wearing makeup are states of being that exist independent of me, I require no knowledge about makeup for these two things two exist and to contrast each other. The existence of that contrast is the foundation of my point.

Unless you're going to argue that makeup doesn't exist or something like that, ask your follow up questions. We may actually be able to get to the bottom of this line of questioning.

[NicoletteXO]

LMAO... so because you're ignorant about something, it "doesn't exist". Not only that, but you have no desire to learn about it. No wonder I can't have a reasonable conversation with you. It's like a scientist trying to explain precipitation to a primitive person. If you are insistent that because you can't see the intricate empirical processes that govern the surface level of your reality, that they don't exist, then no-one can help you.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO "LMAO... so because you're ignorant about something, it "doesn't exist". "
Wtf do you mean? I said nothing of the sort. Have another read.

"Not only that, but you have no desire to learn about it. "
I have learned about it. But you're just insisting that I know nothing, so there's no arguing with you there, and as I explained, my argumentation doesn't rely on a knowledge of makeup to make its point.

"If you are insistent that because you can't see the intricate empirical processes that govern the surface level of your reality, that they don't exist..."
Again, I said nothing like that. You literally just didn't read what I said correctly. Try again. How about you quote me where you think I said that and I'll clear it up for you.

[NicoletteXO]

Not worth my time. You go ahead and enjoy being wrong and lonely. As another male GaGster said below, "get these beta males off the sites so my clients can succeed". You are the beta.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO So the guy who's simping for women's domination *isn't* the beta? Okay lady, sure. Can't help but notice you've conveniently avoided following the line of questioning after noticing your just didn't read correctly. And like I said before, women become toxic, egotistical, and misguided, and again you've put that on full display when you evade the question by noping out. It's fine, by drawing this conversation out we've demonstrated that you've refused to question anything or investigate with rigor. So by all means, be on your way.

[NicoletteXO]

No, no, no. YOU are the one who copped out by refusing to engage in an empirical experiment. Because you are afraid you will be clearly proven wrong. And you don't want to be wrong. Let's be clear - you being wrong actually is a GOOD thing for men, because it means that they have the power to improve their success in dating. You being RIGHT is a terrible thing for men, because it means they are disempowered and living in a world where they are at the whims of psychopathic and egotistical women - which is essentially your hypothesis. It's a hypothesis that the coach I referred to doesn't subscribe to because he has confidence and self worth. Unlike betas like you, who want to rag on the world, and rebuff generous offers by women to help you, then keep playing into their victim mentality 'wah wah wah' mindset. Grow up.

[NicoletteXO]

Also, hilariously, you cop out from engaging in proper analysis of your hypotheses, yet after you've done this you expect ME to engage in detailed and time consuming analysis of your shitty proposals, which I've already basically addressed, and which you've demonstrated you have no desire to engage in good faith discussion around? So you won't engage in good faith, but you expect me to? Now THAT is egotistical. In the extreme.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “empirical experiment.”
It wasn’t a good experiment. It’s a bad proposal, I offered you a good one and you refused.

“he has confidence and self worth.”
I *don’t* use the apps because I have those things. I don’t put up with that trash. You are too fragile to accept being wrong.

“generous offers by women to help you”
Assuming their generosity is genuine. There’s a difference between being generous and doing good.

You stomp your feet and drag dissenting men down when they don’t bend the knee. Keep on validating everything I’ve said.

[NicoletteXO]

You actually used those same "experiments" - except done by clueless 18 year olds - as evidence for your perspective. But the parameters for the experiment were wrong. Sending a "hi" won't get good results - that's obvious to anyone with a brain bigger than a peanut. So on the one hand you say the experiments are perfectly great to justify your perspective, but the same experiment with better parameters "won't work"?

You can have it both ways dude. Either you think these experiments are totally stupid - in which case you have ZERO evidence to even venture the position that guys are hard done by here. OR you think these experiments are legit, in which case you must accept that my offer to do one with better inputs is a good idea.

[NicoletteXO]

And what proposal did you offer that I refused? The one where you wouldn't engage so I would have to do all the legwork because you're too lazy to actually justify your own assertions? That one?

<<<“he has confidence and self worth.”
"I *don’t* use the apps because I have those things. I don’t put up with that trash. You are too fragile to accept being wrong.">>>

No, YOU are too fragile and egotistical to accept you are clearly wrong. I already said - ad nauseam - that it's totally fine for people, including you, not to use apps. In fact, I think for many it's a good idea. There are many men for whom self-confidence means they don't feel the need. I support that.

But that's not the point we are discussing here. What we are discussing is your desperate need - despite claiming not to use the apps - to chime in on other people's experiences in that realm of which you are not apparently involved. And your desperate need to affirm that men are so hard done by, and that there is absolutely NO WAY they could improve their chances.

Basically, your desperate attempt to confirm victimhood status for a group of men which you are not even a part of. That's controlling and egotistical behaviour. Not to mention, it shows you have very little faith in men, as you see them as victims incapable of changing their success in life. And you are actively attacking a woman who is simply here saying, "I would like to help men to achieve better success - here, it's really easy, let me show you how". You are a poor representative of your brothers. So please don't pretend you have their wellbeing at heart.

[NicoletteXO]

<<<"You stomp your feet and drag dissenting men down when they don’t bend the knee. Keep on validating everything I’ve said." >>>
No dude. You can't justify your own assertions, and you insist on downgrading the capacities of most men. If you want to be an illogical and whiny beta bitch, that's on you - but for those men who seek to actually improve their lives, I'm generously offering a hand up. Bend a knee? I simply want good men to flourish and have good relationships with women. You seem insistent on destroying that possibility. Your motives are really off.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “except done by clueless 18 year olds - as evidence for your perspective.”
Why wouldn’t I? It’s representative of men’s experiences. Subjects should be randomly sampled, not selected but researchers to massage the numbers.

“but the same experiment with better parameters "won't work"?”
The problem is it attempts to draw a conclusion that isn’t a solution. Meaning, even if you arrived at a positive result, it doesn’t mean anything substantive. I go back to the slave metaphor, no amount of help changes the reality of their enslavement. But phrase it however you like, basically helping men like that doesn’t unfuck the situation. We want to fix the situation such that they don’t need any help to begin with. There are entire online communities dedicated to your approach and they still recognize the bigger problem, they’ve just resigned themselves to doing it your way. Like I said before, it’s band-aid on a tumour, not a cure.

I said you can by all means try it out. Do it properly, get 15 random women with 15 male profiles and let them have at it, get before/after data. I’m just pointing out that even a positive result isn’t substantive.

“that it's totally fine for people, including you, not to use apps.”
And like I’ve been telling you ad nauseam, it’s not about me, no one cares if I don’t use the apps, and no one gives a crap whether you think that’s fine or not. It’s a problem bigger than us. We want a solution for everyone.

“…to chime in on other people's experiences in that realm of which you are not apparently involved”
Yet you seem to feel perfectly justified posting in my opinion thread under an advice column for men. By that logic, you don’t get to have an opinion on men’s experiences with this. I have much more applicable experiences than you in this context, but you're not going to back off, so why would you think it's a reason for me to?

[Opinion Owner]

“and that there is absolutely NO WAY they could improve their chances.”
I didn’t say there was no way to improve. I just want the wealth of data accumulated to be represented accurately. But you act like you have this *brilliant* solution no one has ever though of. It’s naïve 20yo me (and most other guys) first encountering this problem and thinking “well maybe if I just send better messages”. We’ve all been there, we’ve all done that. We’ve studied these issues for a long time.

“Not to mention, it shows you have very little faith in men, as you see them as victims incapable of changing their success in life.”
I’m the one who has faith in men, I’m the one saying “no they’re not fuck ups, in spite of whatever flaws they might have, there are forces external to them at play”. You are insisting that they can’t speak properly. I’d say I’m idealistic if anything. There are many ways men respond to a bleak situation, suicide, substance abuse, others just say there’s no hope of change so they might as well try to send good messages and do what they can as you suggest, others opt out altogether. It is a bleak situation though, and we have to acknowledge that sometimes really bleak situations exist. I think you accuse me of desperation because if you were in their shoes you would find it a cripplingly depressing situation to be in. Sometimes life has that. Acting like that’s not real is a good way to damn people to that forever. I’m accepting that reality that it’s bad and trying to help formulate the way out for everyone.

[Opinion Owner]

“you are actively attacking a woman who is simply here saying, "I would like to help men to achieve better success - here, it's really easy, let me show you how".”
The problem is the way you want to “help” them, but yes. What you are trying to do is not meaningfully helpful, and I’m going to assume only inadvertently obfuscating of the deeper problems – in spite of your best intentions. Again, pick whatever analogy you like, they’re all about small-scale help with misses a bigger picture: Putting a band-aid on a tumour, “helping” slaves instead of setting them free, giving change to a homeless person instead of a job. If you actually wanted to help, start by dropping your preconceptions and listen to all these people telling you something more is wrong.

“So please don't pretend you have their wellbeing at heart.”
Please don’t pretend like good intentions make a good deed.

“You can't justify your own assertions”
Well the first justification is all the documentation that supports me, second is you responding in accordance with my opening statement.

“you insist on downgrading the capacities of most men. “
Again, I’m the one suggesting they’re adequate the way they are. You are suggesting that they are falling short. So… no.

“ I'm generously offering a hand up.”
How kind and good a person you are to feed your slaves so well.

“ I simply want good men to flourish and have good relationships with women. You seem insistent on destroying that possibility.”
You’re demanding they do that through conforming to a toxic status quo. I want fairness and fulfilment for people which does not naturally follow from the way things are – and which isn’t tainted by a toxic process.

[NicoletteXO]

DUDE. So you claim this 18 year old chick's 'experiment' as 'representative', but you won't do the experiment with me - because of course that would 'not be representative'. In other words, you think that when something affirms your pre-existing bias, it's 'scientific', but when it is likely to disprove your pre-existing bias you won't even countenance it. But the thing is, this is the antithesis of science and empiricism. True science is open to being disproven. Religious and irrational zealotry is what looks for ways to hold onto existing beliefs, regardless of the possibilities to do better investigation. So you are a zealot, not an empiricist. Please don't try to front as anything other than what you are.

[NicoletteXO]

<<<“ I simply want good men to flourish and have good relationships with women. You seem insistent on destroying that possibility.”
You’re demanding they do that through conforming to a toxic status quo. I want fairness and fulfilment for people which does not naturally follow from the way things are – and which isn’t tainted by a toxic process.>>

I'm not demanding men conform to anything. As I mentioned for the BAJILLIONTH time, if they feel apps are not working for them, I support all other approaches.

I am literally simply saying, for the men who choose to be on apps - instead of writing "hey" or "How ru" then getting no responses, and getting depressed and hating on women for it... there are a couple of tweaks that could change the game and create success.

That is not toxic. It's called problem-solving.

But you know what IS toxic? You. Having this conversation in this way. Why do you feel the need to try to control both men and women who choose to be on apps?

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “but you won't do the experiment with me”
I said multiple times you can do it yourself. Go nuts. Let us know how it goes. If you want to do a proper research project, I’d be willing. It might be interesting. I’ll fund it and run it myself, look at getting it published. But I don’t expect to take on any new projects until February, so you might be waiting a while. Call that an excuse if you like, but it is what it is. Hit me up in 4 months and we’ll see what’s up.

“True science is open to being disproven.”
I am. You’re not testing a parameter which disproves what I’m saying. You might as well be measuring the electrical conductivity of fruits. You can say “Aha! A potato is more conductive than a cantaloupe”. But a world in which that’s true would also be compatible with everything I’m saying, so it means very little toward disproving anything, but hey it may still be interesting or useful to someone, so go for it.

“if they feel apps are not working for them, I support all other approaches.”
Okay, but are you acknowledging the underlying problems? The point is that even if worked for a guy, there still exists a problem.

“getting depressed and hating on women for it... there are a couple of tweaks that could change the game and create success.”
Okay, I appreciate that. And I disagree. Some will see success but mostly that’s not true – specifically because of a problem external to themselves.

“That is not toxic. It's called problem-solving.”
I was referring to the status quo. Without a change in the culture, it will continue to be intrinsically toxic. People can carry that psychological mess into the relationships conceived there, or just into their lives in general. I’m saying let’s not prop that up.

[Opinion Owner]

“Why do you feel the need to try to control both men and women who choose to be on apps?”
Control? You’re being hyperbolic. Am I not allowed to try to alert people to a fire in the house? Am I not allowed to tell a bunch of drug addicts they have a problem and should try to stop? – especially when they’re flatly telling us something is wrong and I know it because I’ve shared their experience?
It’s just advice and discussion, and I’m agreeing with the original post. I still feel like there should be a path that’s more 21st century and more effective than “just do what our parents did”, but it is better than dating apps, I’ll give it that. He mentions volunteering at an animal shelter, when I was doing that, it’s how I met a lovely girl who I thought I might marry. Even on G@G, I’ve done the long-distance thing with a few girls I’ve met on here – and I promise I don’t come here to pick up chicks. Essentially, I would like to share with the boiz the merits and joys of not wading through the irradiated poo-bog that is dating apps.

[KlinkyCoder]

@NicoletteXO You see, there seems to be this "default" framing that plays out in society that women as a gender are historically or in modern day oppressed and have issues in society, and that men have been constant oppressors of women, and that men never suffer issues in society related specifically to being male, or that their issues aren't significant enough for social attention.

What people are seeing with bitterness and jadedness in men today (usually stereotyped as "angry misogynists") is the pent-up backlash of men who have become disillusioned along the way and also the lack of empathy and mental health checkup. This is what happens when the mainstream of society laughs and scoffs at these people and take them as a joke. Maybe the main dominant powers in society need a check, who are really the "oppressors" here, white, straight, Christian men in general, or is it them?

[NicoletteXO]

@KlinkyCoder I'm not sure your point. I never said men don't have issues. Of course they do.

My point is super simple. Sending a short and thoughtless message like "hey" is a bad way to get success on an app. There are better intros and ways of engaging that will result in more success.

My whole point is I am trying to assist in that success. Because I would prefer that men and women get on. Sadly, as you can see above, there's been reams of BS argumentation against me. Not even one person has said, "Ok, what are theses simple things a man could do to have more success?" It's super lame. And totally pointless. It's like, analogously, imagine if a whole bunch of people were in poverty, and I was like, "hey I know a way to get money, would you like to know?"... and instead of them saying "sure, thanks!" they spent the next three days ragging on me. Not cool.

[zeitgeist057]

Similar results, and a similar experiment I discontinued almost immediately because I felt bad about all the peoples time I wasted.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO "Ok, what are theses simple things a man could do to have more success?"
Most already have asked that and many already know not to do it anymore. As it has been explained many times: It’s the *wrong* thing to do.

"hey I know a way to get money, would you like to know?"
Here’s the part you’re neglecting: Why are they in poverty in the first place? You know how they answer your question? “Sure, tell me how.” They go make a little money and blow it on drugs and they stay in poverty, all because you didn’t think about what got them into that situation. Your help was not only not helpful, but it empowered their problem instead of addressing the underlying problem itself. It was *bad* help. It doesn’t have to be drugs, it can be anything that fits the analogy. We’re running out of ways to explain the same thing: In spite of your best intentions, your help is not helpful.

[NicoletteXO]

Ridiculous and presumptive comment. Am I sitting here saying the ONLY thing a man should do in his life is tweak his Tinder approaches? No. So stop pretending that I am.

Should a man also do things like improve his confidence, make progress in his career and passions, learn about masculine/feminine dynamics, sexuality and psychology to address the deeper causes of why he is having poor success? Fuck yes.

Your point is "give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life". Which is solid. However, why are you so insistent on making the man starve while he learns how to fish? I'm like, give him a couple of fish to sustain him while he's learning. Not sure why you have a problem with that.

[Opinion Owner]

@NicoletteXO “Ridiculous and presumptive comment. Am I sitting here saying the ONLY thing a man should do in his life is tweak his Tinder approaches? No. So stop pretending that I am.”
Did I comment that it was the only thing you said to do? Regardless of what else you’ve said to do, that particular one has obviously been in focus. If you’re done with that one, then we can drop it.

“Should a man also do things like…”
Sure, having good things going on gets them in a place mentally where they can better fight against the deeper issue in the culture by having proportional expectations of women. This should hopefully result in most women rising to the occasion and/or being humbled, although many will likely dig their heels in.

“give him a couple of fish to sustain him while he's learning.”
A well-intention thought, but the problem is that the teaching and the giving are counter-productive here. To adjust the analogy to represent that: Giving the fish is still a sustained contribution, but the reality is more like raffling off a supply of fish, and they would have to do something else for the tickets like… let’s call it jumping through hoops. So, then we can have men fish or have men jump through hoops all day – doing one eats into the time for the other. We want them to stop investing in the fish raffle because it doesn’t sustain them, most will go without, even if they did more hoop jumping. We want them to fish to sustain themselves instead.

[AmandaYVR]

Yep, I pretty much agree with all that you wrote.
I don't wish, for the sake of society, that all men simple stop using dating apps, but I would understand if men boycotted them for this exact reason. There's an Aimee Mann song I like called 'Wise Up', where she says, "It's not going to stop 'till you wise up..."

I did used to think the solution to this was for men to writing better openers, put some effort in. I still believe it's a poor investment not to do this, and that volume is kind of disgusting, and if this merely about getting sex, then yeah, I see why you don't give a f about putting in effort or making a real connection. Effort is necessary for relationships. However, I have since been convinced that it's not this simple. It's not a guaranteed 'solution'. All the things you mentioned about what this attention is doing to girls' thinking... it's true. The psychology there is sound. They think they have options, and they're the prize, and the 'solution' is for the men to rise up to meet them, on their high horse.

I've been coming at this from another angle, which is to continually encourage girls to read out, go for what they want; or at least what they find at all interesting. I've heard every reason, every excuse, every justification for why they don't want to do it. It now feels close to futile for me to even bother. They believe what they believe. (And they don't even support and interact with each other all much online. In this world, they receive.) And as long as they keep doing that, they're much, much, less likely to be with the guy they really want. Dealer's choice is a very powerful concept.

And if their standards are so unattainable, they will stay single (some very much want that, to stay single, but I'm not referring to those, obviously.) Not only single, but getting offended by every little thing that a girl friend, co-worker, online acquaintance, etc. etc., said, creates an insulated, lonely existence. (Just look at the depression and suicide stats for online teens and female young adults.) They're on social media, on the dating apps, and many are seeking Likes, but they're stingy with passing them out themselves. You see the behaviour here on gag too. They claim it's because they get rampant dick picks (and yes, many do), but that doesn't justify the crickets on other girls' questions... questions completely unrelated to sex. What they seem to do, instead, is make up their own anon questions, and enjoy the receiving they get from others. That's its own form of psychological loneliness, not unlike a single, "Hey."

[Guy13]

You know, I have heard about this kind of crap since I was 18 and have not been on one of those Apps. Sometimes, trying to reinventing the wheel is foolishness and time wasted.

[coachTanthony]

I agree. Get all these beta males off these apps so my clients can succeed.

[NicoletteXO]

Hahaha for sure.

[RolandCuthbert]

I understand your experiment, but I disagree with the interpretation of the results. It is not surprising that a dating site would have so many more real men on it than actual women. In fact, I really played around with the idea of creating a dating site that would be free for women. Why would a woman go to a general dating site?

1. Why would she pay to be hit on? Especially when men online can be threatening, abusive or worse? There are too many sites where women can sign up for free.
2. Many women in America simply do not think it is their job to initiate communication. Most believe they simply have to look good and advertise their interest a little bit.
3. Then if the site isn't even niche. . . if it isn't geared to an ethnic grouping, a culture or a specific set of interests. . . what would be the purpose of signing up?

There are sites specifically for farmers, military veterans/personnel, for Asians, Jews, etc. And I am willing to bet that those sites would grant male users a decidedly different experience. As for confidence, I think a good dating site does the exact opposite. I have counseled men who were terrified of the dating game. But after getting an understanding of their needs/wants, I was able to pair them with a service that worked for them. The biggest issue I have seen is sites that scam men out of money. They are told to sign up. They are paying a monthly fee and they get nothing but botnets. You didn't divulge the service you used. But I have seen services out there that are way worse. But if men are willing to pay, what is to stop them? They don't have to worry about providing eligible women. Then the worst ones, either pay for photos or use stolen ones to create fake accounts to engage these men.

I met an Iraq war veteran with that experience. I felt so bad for that man. And the site had made him swear off women. He blame women for his experiences and I could not find a way to help him. This is not the site. I am just posting an example of niche sites. I think these types of sites are awesome.

[SunnyFlorida]

Part of my motivation for posting this MyTake was there was a Medical Doctor who posted on this website after shear frustration on dating websites. The post was taken down before I could respond; he sounded truly depressed. My guess is he was working 60-80 hours a week and had little time to find a girlfriend, so he relied upon dating websites... to his detriment.

I think specialized websites make matters worse because you reduce the size of potential women. Many Jewish women feel compelled to marry a Jewish man, so JDate (website for Jewish people) seems to be work. But most of my Jewish male friends try to avoid Jewish women for reasons I won't get into.

If you are helping single men find women, I suggest you pair them up as wingmen. Hunting in a pack. But have firm rules for the wingmen, like no hitting on the same woman and no putting down the wingman.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah, I really disagree with that. Again, why would a woman join a generalized dating site? Men don't have much in terms of preferences. But women do. Women have preferences in terms of culture, ethnicity, some have racial preferences, others maybe be picky when it comes to height or size. Men are more flexible in their requirements.

As for Jewish men avoiding Jewish women, well I am quite certain there are folks within a certain ethnic group, race, culture, etc, who are not willing to date within their own group. That happens everywhere. The point is even if that is the case, you will need a place where folks can meet others of a specific interest or group identity.

I was a member of Blackpeoplemeet for years. But at the site we have dozens if not hundreds of women who were Asian, Latina, "White", Italian, Ukrainian, etc.

They came to the site because they wanted to meet African-American men. Wn also had non "Black" men wanting to meet African-American women.

I just don't know of any general dating site that has much success, unless you are willing to make a huge investment of time and money.

Oh, I am not a matchmaker. I just thought about the idea when my consulting business fell on hard times.

[Seinna]

This experiment is stupid... she pretended to be a man and messaged women with just "hi"? I'd almost never reply to that and if a guy writes even a sentence, I will definitely reply to a match on tinder. Like it or not, men have to put a bit more work. Yes, dating in general is harder for men... but that has always been the case. Because it's a bigger committment for a woman if she gets pregnant so she has to chose wisely. Realistically, a man can just move on to the next person. Not every guy will get to pass on his genes and this is not just humans, it's majority of the animal kingdom.

But rather than focus on the negatives, I believe men should take advantage of their strength and innate leadership. A woman says the last word but we're not as free to just pick and chose, we usually depend on the guy messaging/approaching us first. That's a huge strength you guys have - how often do you see a great looking guy with an ugly girl? Not often and the opposite is quite common.

To put it simply - men are not women and I don't understand why men, who are naturally dominating in a society would chose to put themselves on the victim pyre. That's not attractive at all, don't be so pessimistic and passive! Be men, be strong, be bold and girls will be attracted to you! Looks is not even half as important for you as it is for women and to a certain age you get more attractive as you mature. Us women, we have our youth, health and beauty. Sure, we can be successful and rich and smart... but realistically how important are those things in getting a good life partner?

It honestly just boggles my mind that men would chose to victimise themselves.

[NicoletteXO]

Speaking my language, lady!

[zeitgeist057]

yep, she created a male profile, but then sent a message typical of a girl: "hi". Which would be fine if it were a female profile, men would line up around the block to get such a special message from a female XD. But coming from a male profile, it's lazy and worthless, right @NicoletteXO?

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 "hey" a super lazy intro, regardless of gender. Are you going to sit here and tell me it's impressive and showcases erudition?

[Seinna]

@zeitgeist057 I never messaged/approached a man first :) No matter how good looking or attractive he seems, all I did was make myself available and approachable. But if I did ever message one, I would definitely write more than "hi". You know why? Because I'd like to make a good first impression and a lazy one word greeting creates impression or a lazy, unimaginative person.

[zeitgeist057]

@NicoletteXO nah, I'm just playing <3 :)

[zeitgeist057]

@Seinna so, in other words... "I never made any effort at all, but if I ever did..." lol I'm just teasing of course.

I agree with a lot of what you said esp. about the ugly guys with good looking women, we guys are pretty lucky in that way; personality can overcome an unfortunate physical features. Girls aren't so lucky in that way usually.

[Jamie05rhs]

"Because it's a bigger committment for a woman if she gets pregnant so she has to chose wisely."
But dating is not the "choice." Nor is it a commitment. It's just a date!

[NicoletteXO]

@Jamie05rhs But it is a choice. Most women spend hours and lots of money and effort to get ready for a date. Why invest all that effort/ energy into someone who won't bother writing a full sentence to you? That's just stupid.

[Jamie05rhs]

@NicoletteXO Why invest all of that effort, period? Again, it's just a date.

[NicoletteXO]

@Jamie05rhs I would do the same for going out with my girlfriends. I'm not that cavalier with my time or energy. If I do things, I do them well. I have no desire to "just go on a date" with a bunch of halfwits. If I'm going on a date, I want to be pretty sure I'm with a high calibre man. And the great thing is, I have wonderful dates as a result of this approach. Fuck lazily 'hanging out' with just anyone.

[Diodoro]

I prefer our problems

Imagine being inundated with fat chick after fat chick after fat chick, all hitting you with their version of game. When finally seeing a hot chick I'd just a breath of fresh air lol

That would suck. I'd be like damn, why am I attracting do many fat chicks? Where are all the cute girls

I think setting up a decent profile and personalizing your profile for the types of girl you actually want and seeing those girls come in fewer numbers but higher quality is better overall.

I've matched with girls who were at the same bar as me that same night lol. Remember one a girl checked me out when she walked in the room as I was sitting at my table with some friends.

She sat on the other side of the room. We made eyes at eachother here and there. Saw her tinder profile and super swiped on her, just because it was funny to me. Sent a quick little message

She matched me and hit me back lol. We met up the next night at the same bar for a group date. Cool chick

[Shizunk]

The video is great, but I suspect you are using some pretty bad dating apps. I generally get the impression that the English speaking apps are worse from what people say about them.
The only site I am willing to use is a free web with no algorithm whatsoever. It is a list of profiles you can filter by age, location and a few other key characteristics, and then you get a list of recent postings only listing a single photo and a short description of what the person wants. So you know exactly how recent her attempt is, she is forced to formulate some sort of a half coherent summary of what she wants, doesn't want, etc. You can usually look at education, location, age, photos and very little else. I am very discriminating there, i scroll through a lot of profiles, respond to a few where I can make a good case for a date. And while the women certainly still complain about getting flooded with messages whereas I have few, an overwhelming majority are great conversations I am glad to have had, even if there ends up being no date. It is definitely a lot easier than trying to pickup random people in real world.

[Wester1967]

I was in the USA the past month. My first foray in to online apps. What a joke. I got hit up by about 20 women during the month. All 20 were basically asking for money within the first 1/2 hour. I managed one date for the following week. Two days before she sends me her cashapp and a request for her $150 "fee"... LOL... A couple of other goofy arse conversations followed by ghosting.

This month I move to a South American country for work. Within the first 48 hours I have well over 20 matches of girls age 20-29, and 5 days out they just keep coming, 2-3 new ones every day... and also now about 40 matches with single mothers and/or women in their 40s and 50s. That's on jump for all you USA boys still living in dating all hell out there. I'm still trying to process the gigantic difference. But I will not be going back to crazyville any time soon.

Also I notice that most of the responses on this thread are from a particular vitriolic female ranter who blocked me or I blocked her. Lord have mercy I can only imagine what's being said.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Sorry, but you have it backwards.

It's MUCH easier to find compatible matches when you can sift through well written profiles from an entire country for someone who shares your hobbies, interests, goals, views, morals, lifestyle choices, etc. and looks attractive to you. This is something thats literally impossible to do in person.

Are you seriously suggesting that its easier to find someone who meets all of that criteria when you shrink the dating pool to your city/town's population, and leave it up to blind luck/circumstance to even find them, and then hope they are even looking for an SO, or that they are even the type if person you are looking for? Let alone that you are what they are looking for?

Horse shit, pure horse shit, that would reduce your odds at finding a match by a massive amount that might as well be zero. And grocery stores? Dog parks? Work? Really? That just screams creeper alert.

Also, a person liking you =/= match.
Compatibility AND them liking you AND you liking them = match.

The disparity in messages for online dating is only a thing because most men message women who either say nothing about themselves, or aren't their type.

Women aren't being too picky, men aren't being picky enough, if they were, the message reply rate would be the same, and matching would be rare, as it should be, because dating someone who is very different from you in personality, interests, and hobbies, is idiotic.

[Jamie05rhs]

What good is confidence going to do me with random women? Help me get a date? But why? What if I don't want a date with her?

The reason people use online dating is not to find a date, but to find a MATCH. That's the whole point; that's why the technology exists.

The reason we want to find a match is because women are different. No, I'm not talking about their looks; that's something that's obvious from the outside. I'm talking about personality, beliefs and values.

"Confidence" is something that is way OVER-valued.

Look, I have plenty of confidence. If I wanted to, I could dress up nice, shave, brush my hair, put on deodorant and/or cologne, and walk up to any woman I want and strike up a conversation with her. You think that's hard to do? No; not at all.

But confidence is irrelevant, unless you're just looking to get laid. Because in that case, any woman will do. What's the common denominator between all women? Yep-that's right: a vagina.

But I'm looking for more than a vagina. I have higher standards. I'm selective. (As all men should be. As well as all women.)

This is why your argument is fundamentally flawed.

[iWantToCry]

Whats wrong with male companionship. At least then you'll stand a better chance at enterprising together

[gag2021]

@iWantToCry I've seen too many beautiful women that have ugly personalities that makes them very unattractive. Arrogance is a big turn off! The ones that act like they are looking down upon you, that you are not up to their level. I don't want or need that.

[Jamie05rhs]

@iwanttocry That's a very valid point. And I agree. I have had some really good male roommates, and the arrangement has benefited both of us. But we're not talking about that here. We're talking about romance.

[iWantToCry]

Romance isn't real. Its real because women told you they want romantic men. Because it benefits them. It gives you hope. It brainwashes alphas to settle down with their one and only. It's dumb.

[iWantToCry]

You think it's real *

[Jamie05rhs]

@iWantToCry I disagree.

[thomasmore]

I met my girlfriend before dating apps even existent, but I met her online on a dating platform.
What worked for me by far the best, was checking out the profiles of girls that did not have a picture in their profile.
Without any pictures in their profile, nobody was looking at them, so pretty much every one of them was visiting my profile to find out who this guy was that checked out their profile. A few of them seemed to like my profile and contacted me, if the chemistry was right I did get their picture after all, and with one exception, it was not their appearance that prevented them from adding a picture to their profile.
I dated some of them until I got together with my Girlfriend 11 years ago.
I know this will not work in tinder, but it could still work on some web based platforms.

[zeitgeist057]

Innovation sets you apart from the herd.

[zeitgeist057]

Yep.

I am sometimes tempted because I know there are lots of women on those apps and beautiful ones at that, but I know it is a waste of time for exactly the reasons you illustrated. I'm not interested in being one of 100, 200, or more messages (imagine if the account had been left open more than 3 days!) that aren't even going to be opened, let alone read with any focus or intent, valued, or responded to.

I'm absolutely for meeting people in person, it's a much better venue for me.

[Slartybartfast]

Great post. Online dating is a soul crushing and degrading experience. It's what convinced me to call it quits and stop dating entirely.

If women expect me to jump through hoops and take that kind of abuse I'd rather eat glass.

Whatever happened to equality in relationships? Standard decency and respectful communication?

[_piotr]

There is no equality in relationships. Women want to be treated like queens and exploit men. I do not expect any decency or respect from most women as they only love themselves and either hate men or believe that men are inferior beings.

[Anonymous]

Yep.

It has to do with an attraction impulse.

Doing donuts in a sportscar = attraction impulse

Looks like an actor = attraction impulse

Looks tall and muscular = attraction impulse

It's a 3 second decision. Anything you write is secondary.

I knew a pretty woman who had something like 150 matches, that's 150 people she liked back. You're right. But the numbers aren't any better IRL. It's best to just avoid relationships entirely until something comes to you.

[MrNameless]

I don't think men should give up on online dating, because it widens their dating pool. Trying in person and online will give you the best results. It's true that the average man won't get great results online and online apps have made women more self entitled, but you never know. Really work on your profile and make it stand out, especially on your opening message (make it original and not something what most men would say, but something interesting still).

[Avicenna]

I'm sure some people will say that things have changed greatly from when I was a young adult (I didn't hear of a dating app until I was 26, much less try using one), but it's not impossible for young men to meet women IRL. To be fair, your odds get better the older you are (I've had plenty of success, even on a dating app), but there are fewer women who are married or have kids at those ages as well. Just get out and live your life, being opportunistic when you get the chance to talk to a woman.

[gag2021]

Good luck with that.

[Avicenna]

@gag2021: A guy will never get anywhere if he is totally negative

[gag2021]

True!

[gag2021]

I just know that I don't like rejection, so the girl will have to show some interest. Good communication is sort of a sign that there possibly can be interest. But I've learned to take nothing for granted. It's not being negative, it's having learned from life experiences.

[Avicenna]

@gag2021: You can generate interest sometimes with a good convo and making a good impression

[Anonymous]

I think it's worth bringing up so people know the reality of the situation. Just because you hear something you don't like doesn't mean it's shitting on women. Some women really do need to learn to deal with criticism better. As for Dating Apps, I wouldn't say give up on dating apps. Just don't rely on them since they are in favor of fewer guys. Instead, focus more on working on yourself and building up your confidence socially in person. You will be much better off focusing on yourself than women any day of the week. I'll also add some of these women's standards are too high for what they probably can actually get (Examples being Single Mothers). Lastly, look at the Fine Print before signing up for Dating Apps. Some (If not many) of them use botnets. I don't think any men are signing up for botnets and they should get their money back.

[KlinkyCoder]

And they are trying to restrict real-life meeting too. I'm beginning to hate modernity. I would love to have been born in the 1940s USA, I would be able to be a kid and teen during the 50s and 60s and adult in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Peak life quality. And no social media technology and smartphones either. People also appreciated physical media back then.

[KlinkyCoder]

Yeah, I've also did online dating (stll trying at it occasionally) but I don't seem to have any luck, the original opinion is right, online dating is more on the toxic end for men, and a lot for women too.

[Nomina]

I didn't read the whole thing, but I agree with the general sentiment. To get off the apps and meet people in person again. Rebuild social skills.

[NicoletteXO]

I just watched the video.

The one thing that is glaringly obvious is this; the 18 year old girl offered lame introductions. "Hi, how are you?" is super lazy. No surprise that she got no responses.

[zeitgeist057]

And yet that exact "lame" introduction will result in a conversation almost every time in real life.

You support the point made. A guy has to do some fantastic feat of shining out amongst the 100 or 200 other messages a girl got for the day, just being a normal person and opening with a "hi, my name is ____, what's your name?" is "super lazy".

Yet women aren't doing anything fabulous in return, how many super witty intros from women were coming from women to the 18 year old girl's fake account?

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 Personally, I unmatch any person who sends me a 'hey' or 'hi how are you" - for my tastes it is lazy and unoriginal. It indicates the man will not bring the quality of connection to the relationship that I will bring. I did a self-inquiry exercise to see check myself with this - I decided to message some men (normally I wait for them to message me, since it is my experience that these encounters work better). It took me about 20 seconds to craft a thoughtful and personalized message that was far superior to "hey". It actually reaffirmed my feeling that these messages are really sub par. Men simply need to lift their game. It's actually not hard. I do not support the point made, and I do not appreciate that you pretend that I do.

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 Also - I disagree. If some completely random person walked up to me out of nowhere and said "hey" - with absolutely no other context - I would think it was bizarre and creepy. If they said something heartfelt like "um, look, I was sitting over there and noticed you were reading a book on applied ethics - that's a real interest of mine. You're also gorgeous! I felt quite drawn to introduce myself, if that's ok?" ... if they said something like THAT in real life, different story.

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 there is also a very good reason why women do not start introduce themselves. I have experimented with this - and time and time again it is ALWAYS a flop. If I lean back and allow men to initiate, they are so much happier and the connection flows well. Masculine energy is by nature initiatory. Feminine energy is receptive. Penises penetrate - vaginas receive. Most men actually HATE and feel emasculated when I initiate. Every time I have ever experimented with this it has backfired. When I don't, encounters flow very smoothly and men adore my company. So if you wonder why women don't initiate, it's because most men do not enjoy it. It makes them feel controlled and emasculated. I do not initiate out of respect for a man's energy. Also, if he's not initiating, it means he's not that motivated to connect with me. Other men who will initiate ARE more motivated to connect with me. Of course, a better relationship will ensue if I am connecting to a man who is actually motivated to be with me. It will be better for both of us.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

The guy makes good point. Saying "hi" to someone in person gets you a conversation, and also even if he actually had to come up with great lines... yes, that's the point, guys are made to jump through these ridiculous hoops where women are not.

So glad you agree with the guys on this one.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz I don't agree - as I mentioned, walking up to a chick randomly and saying "Hi" will not get you a conversation in real life. Maybe if they are 14 and have no personal boundaries. But not with a normal woman. Saying something genuine, relevant and heartfelt will get you a conversation.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz It's a shame you didn't bother to read the extensive information I included above. It's not about "making people jump through hoops".

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Doesn't matter if whether your intent is for hoops to be jumped through or not, you still make it happen.

If I say hi to someone in the street they stop and listen because I'm obviously trying to speak to them for some reason. Most people respond to someone trying to speak to them.

You deciding that your message was thoughtful, does not necessarily make it so, and that experiment does not represent the context of guys being expected to do this constantly.
Try the same experiment as the girl in the video, *then maybe* you'll come close to a realistic analogue.

I would judge a person by the entirety of the conversation and the contents of their profile, not their opening line. A single line is a terrible metric for a person.

And the essence of your position is agreeing with the point being made about the expectations on guys, the caveat being that you think it's fine that way.

[zeitgeist057]

@NicoletteXO also, I did not say an opener of "'hey' with no other context was a good introduction, it is different than "Hi, how are you?", "Hi, my name is ______, what's yours?: or some other short opener that otherwise gets a "lame" mark. I agree simply grunting in someone's general direction is lazy, but on the flip side, many satisfying interactions start with no more than a little eye contact, a smile, or other body language.

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057just out of curiosity... why are you attempting to argue that sending an intro that is better than "hey" is a big deal? It's not hard, and it shows the woman A) that you care, and B) that you are a man of higher quality than the rest. Surely this is just a simple way to experience better quality connections. Isn't that not only what women want, but also what men want?

[zeitgeist057]

@NicoletteXO I didn't say it's a big deal, I agreed that it's a waste of time.

As for "A) shows that you care" and "B) shows you are a higher quality man than the rest" I disagree on both points. A) Sending any message shows interest. B) I would argue that men who are pathetic enough to waste their time on a quality, heartfelt and deeper message as their first message that probably won't even get read, either don't respect and value themselves, or they are too stupid to understand the basics of dating apps as illustrated by this MyTake. The other more common category is the players who are looking to get laid by as many women as possible, and for them the effort is just part of the game so no big deal. It doesn't make them "high quality", just the opposite. But it's obvious they are successful at fooling you, and likely many other women.

[zeitgeist057]

It's a waste of time because as the MyTake illustrates, a female profile is going to get a flood of about 100 messages/day and she's not even going to read them all. The more attractive she is, the more this is true. It doesn't matter what you write if it doesn't get read, so writing something that takes time and effort, is a waste of that time and effort. Whether that is 20 seconds or 20 minutes. It's a numbers game. Some of the smarter "players" on these apps just do a google search for some funny openers and cut and paste those with some success. When I used dating sites/apps I would cut and paste a couple sentences of my own original opener, which also worked fairly well.

What actually matters, online and off, is if the attraction is mutual. That is why my cut and paste usually says something along the lines of "I looked at your profile and found you attractive on several levels. If you like, check out my profile as well and if the interest is mutual then let's continue the conversation." Subtext: If the interest is not mutual, there's no point in writing more. I won't waste any time and energy on begging you to like me. I don't need to write about myself, that's what having a profile is for; it gives you the basic picture. If the woman is too lazy or self absorbed to check out my profile and put her own energy into a mutual conversation, I'll leave her to the players and desperate losers to pick up.

[t-8900]

@NicoletteXO when i first engage I say hello followed by my interest in their hobbies and interests that are in line with my own, then i talk about wanting to get to know them better and then wish them a pleasant evening. I never get responses. Am I doing something wrong?

[zeitgeist057]

@t-8900 yes you are using dating apps lol

[NicoletteXO]

@t-8900 you're doing way better than someone who says "hey". Send me a PM with an example of what you say, and I will let you know exactly how to tweak it. I am pretty convinced I will be able to help you get responses.

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 you sound very bitter. Look, ultimately, I agree with the MyTake to the extent that in-person connection is always going to be better. But I'll tell you why - it's because having the courage to actually approach a woman in the street already demonstrates to her that you have qualities that are superior to some lazy dude who is eating Cheetos on his Mum's couch, cut-and-pasting "hey cutie" to 50 chicks a day.

In terms of your point that sending any message shows "interest". I don't see why that means anything. When she has thousands of other guys showing "interest" in a lazy way, that's not going to advance your chances. A man needs to show he is not only interested, but he cares to engage in a way that shows attentiveness and care. The reason for this is that it demonstrates a man who is more likely to have qualities which will form the basis for a fruitful connection.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“it's because having the courage to actually approach a woman in the street already demonstrates to her that you have qualities that are superior to some lazy dude “
Yet, for some reason it’s okay when she’s the lazy/spineless one.

“it demonstrates a man who is more likely to have qualities which will form the basis for a fruitful connection.”
She’s done nothing to be worth that effort though. The context you outline is exactly why the women are not worth that effort: I'm competing with thousands on guys for this rando chick to throw me a bone? Exactly, that's not worth. A girl who meets halfway is more likely to have qualities which will form the basis for a fruitful connection. That’s worth my time and energy.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz why are you arguing? If you don't want to be on the apps, then don't be on the apps. All good.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

No, not all good. It's about what's happening to everyone, not me.
So I should just keep quiet while everyone continues positioning themselves? No thanks, I'm going to say my piece.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

*poisoning themselves

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz well, if chiming in on other peoples' affairs is 'your piece' ...

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Okay, so you should just butt out then?

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz Hardly, you are the one commenting on the thread of my initial comment, about a sphere of human affairs which you apparently do not desire to take part in.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Hardly?
You're "chiming in" on advice addressed to a demographic of people you are not a part of. And it's advice about not participating in that sphere of human affairs.
I'm no more chiming in on other people's affairs than you are.
It's social media, this is what it's here for.

And I would be a part of that sphere, provided it's not disgusting. But it is and that's the core of the problem we're talking about.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz Correction - YOU had a disgusting experience. Other people don't. Maybe you should take some tips from those people instead of ragging about your lack of success from the sidelines.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“YOU had a disgusting experience. Other people don't”
No, most men did. This is well documented already.

“Maybe you should take some tips from those people”
Their success doesn’t validate the existence of the struggle. The existence of the struggle itself is the transgression. Some people have escaped a murderer, better to take advice from them rather than not having any murderers, amirite?

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz

“YOU had a disgusting experience. Other people don't”
No, most men did. This is well documented already. " >>> But not all men have this experience. If you could be one of the successful ones, why wouldn't you? I'm offering ways that you can be.

"“Maybe you should take some tips from those people”
Their success doesn’t validate the existence of the struggle. The existence of the struggle itself is the transgression. Some people have escaped a murderer, better to take advice from them rather than not having any murderers, amirite?"

Nobody's suggesting men don't struggle here. Women also struggle in their own ways. Struggles are real, but after we acknowledge that, let's move on to solutions.

Your murderer analogy is not clear. If anything, it supports my point. If you want to "escape the murderer" (ie. escape being rejected/ unsuccessful on the apps) then yes, it is better to take advice from the people who have escaped the murderer (the ones who escaped being unsuccessful - ie. the ones who ARE successful).

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“ If you could be one of the successful ones, why wouldn't you?”
I would, but that doesn’t change the reality others have to go through. Not caring about others just because I won is cold. For some strange reason, it’s not enough that only I am happy. I want to help engineer an environment where people have equitable and satisfying experiences. For now, that doesn’t appear to be dating apps. It’s not really like that in real life either, but men will still have greater success in real life or even online as long as it’s not on dating apps. These apps are the last place they should be looking for a connection.

“If you want to "escape the murderer"”
There’s a bigger picture. The point is not specifically to “escape the murderer”, the point is to not get murdered. I’m suggesting we put our focus on stopping murderers trying to kill people in the first place, rather than solely advising people on how to escape while leaving the murderer alone.

“Women also struggle in their own ways. Struggles are real, but after we acknowledge that, let's move on to solutions.”
Sure, but for the sake of an accurate depiction of the data, which is conducive to finding solutions, let’s not unintentionally imply they are proportional in this context. To dip into another analogy: rich people have problems too, but we generally consider them less substantial than poor people’s problems. Being able to help everyone with what ails them sounds nice, but I’m going to prioritize reforming the system which disadvantages the poor.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz I seriously don't understand what you're arguing about with me. You want men's chances to improve, and so do I. I'm saying there are easy ways they can. Why squash that? If they don't think apps are for them, that's great. But if they do, I have some super easy adjustments which they can make which will shift their success. Why are you wasting energy trying to quash that? Seems extremely counterproductive.

[NicoletteXO]

Also, please explain your murder point more coherently. It's not clear.

[zeitgeist057]

@NicoletteXO I think what he’s saying about the murderer is rather than ask people how to successfully navigate a terrible experience, change the experience.

For the murderer analogy: stop the murderer (put in prison), rather than let murderer continue to murder and use survivors to advise future victims.

For dating apps: change the platform to be satisfying to a greater proportion of users, rather than consult those with successful outcomes on using a dysfunctional system.

[NicoletteXO]

@zeitgeist057 Hey, I have no problem with changing the tech of the apps to work better for all. Or with people not using apps.

However, what I think is pernicious is a dude complaining about me offering extremely simple insights which would greatly assist men to go from utter failure to some modicum of success on the apps IF they choose to use them. I'm not suggesting they need to use them, and I support anyone who chooses other ways of meeting people.

But what this guy is doing is complaining and unwarranted negativity. Unless HE is going to develop some new tech or a new app himself, then he has no place bitching about someone who is simply trying to offer some help in the context that that new tech does not exist.

It's like: I'm watching guys get murdered... I yell out - "hey, there's a knife over there, and an exit route there!" - attempting to help them. And this dude is complaining about me, pontificating about putting the murderer in prison. Should we put the metaphorical murderer in prison? Sure! But until we can, I don't see the point in ragging on people like me who can at least stop people from being killed while the murder is free. It's ridiculous and petty in my opinion.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

@zeitgeist057 I accept that interpretation of my analogy. The only thing I would add is that it's not the "platform" that I’m interested in changing per se. That frames it like a tech issue, like we can structure an app with special features that someone how make things better. Although I do frequently think about tech-based solutions, we’ve seen that kind of thing before and so far it hasn’t done anything. Rather than the platform, I’m suggesting the problem is cultural, as should be the solution. But otherwise, yes, you got it.

@NicoletteXO “offering extremely simple insights which would greatly assist men to go from utter failure to some modicum of success on the apps IF they choose to use them.”
In spite of your best intentions, I think it ultimately distracts people from a real solution. The other guy gets the analogies.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“But what this guy is doing is complaining and unwarranted negativity.”
How’s this for “unwarranted negativity”. A man just died on the street outside my house, there’s literally a lifeless body 2 doors down on the side of the road as I write, the EMTs have given up. It wasn’t warranted and I see it as negative, but it’s real nonetheless. Life doesn’t care if you don’t like it and don’t want to hear about it. Sometimes things are just bad and we have to deal.

To me, my assessment of the situation we’ve been discussing has been matter-of-fact, I’m accepting the reality of the situation and looking for a solution. To someone such as you for whom the experiences we’ve discussed are alien, it’s understandable how simply being told about it would sound like horrific pessimism, too absurd to be real. But what if it *is* real? Consider that maybe, just maybe, it’s real. Maybe it’s “unwarranted negativity” to you because it’s difficult to accept that things could be that bad and so different from your own side of the circumstances. But is life not capable of kicking you when you’re down? Of course it is. We can’t shy away just because it’s too uncomfortable to confront. I’m sorry if it sounds too negative to your ear, but rather than focusing on the contrast with your own situation, just see it as reality.

To put it in perspective, it’s rough, but there are worse things, I’m thankful not to be the guy on the ground outside. Right about now, his next of kin are being informed of their loved one’s death. What he went through and what they are about to go through dwarfs our bullshit. Compared to that, everything I’ve talked about is virtually chipper. Does that make it easier to accept? Whether it sounds negative to you, or trivial in contrast to worse things, it’s just life happening around us, and that’s how I’m treating it.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz Look, I agree with you that the cultural dynamics between men and women need to shift. But arguing with me about a simple point - which is entirely correct - that saying more than "hey" is going to put a person in a better position or an app than not doing that - is odd. If anyone's being matter of fact, it's me. It's a matter of fact that "hey" is unlikely to get a good response.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“arguing with me about a simple point - that saying more than "hey" is going to put a person in a better position or an app than not doing that - is odd.”
I’m not arguing that point. I’m arguing that engaging in it is wasted effort, a distraction, placation which inhibits meaningful change.

“It's a matter of fact that "hey" is unlikely to get a good response.”
From a girl, in practice, yes. But that’s a symptom of the problem.

[NicoletteXO]

@AllThatSweetJazz “arguing with me about a simple point - that saying more than "hey" is going to put a person in a better position or an app than not doing that - is odd.”
I’m not arguing that point. I’m arguing that engaging in it is wasted effort, a distraction, placation which inhibits meaningful change.

If you want to effect "meaningful change", then why are you still arguing with me about this point? Go right ahead and let us all know: what is your big proposal for meaningful change? I'll probably support it!

“It's a matter of fact that "hey" is unlikely to get a good response.”
From a girl, in practice, yes. But that’s a symptom of the problem.

How so? If a random guy walked up to me in the street, said "hey" and did nothing else, I would be running for the hills. Apps or no apps, it's terrible and shitty communication which is not going to result in fruitful connection.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

“If you want to effect "meaningful change", then why are you still arguing with me about this point?”
Because what you are telling people to do helps keep society in that hole.

“what is your big proposal for meaningful change?”
Never said I had the magic pill. I’m just speaking out about something bad. Without forcing people to do anything, all I have is to advise people to not to indulge in this addiction and to change their behaviour for the better. Nurture good culture.

“How so? If a random guy walked up to me in the street, said "hey" and did nothing else, I would be running for the hills.”
I doubt it, I think you’ probably been approached by a charity worker, salesperson, or had someone return something you dropped and you didn’t flip out.
It’s not “shitty communication”, it’s just a simple greeting. There’s more to people than one line. I used to try hard to come up with perfect openers on apps and it wasn’t productive. It’s trash. People don’t actually care about that stuff in real life. Most people are nice and if you just talk with them they’re chill. In university, friends were the most useful thing to succeed, so every new class I would just go chat someone up and early on and I would always make friends who could help each other through the semester. I have no patience anymore for texting, let alone carefully crafted texts to make a good first impression. I can just jump in discord with someone and talk to them no problem. That’s real communication: Using your face to make words at people naturally. What is said on apps is not real communication, it’s a cover letter you write for an employer, it’s not worth anyone’s time. And that’s what makes it a symptom of the problem.