What are your thoughts on the INCEL movement and culture?

[coachTanthony]

[OliviaDenny2000]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I feel sorry for them.

Sure, their comments about women are terrible, and I do not justify their actions. With that being said, what if you were rejected by a gender your entire life? You would probably want to shame that gender too. I'm sure most of these guys weren't always this bitter. Chances are, they were the smart/nerdy guys who were rejected, because they weren't popular, and are now raging against women.

Loneliness isn't something to shame, or mock at. Loneliness has a sitgma attached to it for some reason, and it pities me to see some comments on it.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Here's my problem with these people & I've only just realized this about myself & from this point forward am working on this myself. These "nice guys", incels, etc. Is they only go after women for sex. (Which they claim assholes do, but they are literally only going after women they find attractive.) Personality, common interests, & what you can provide or bring to the table is what should matter instead. I generally feel I'm an actual nice person, just a little jaded in my thought process & how I view relationships & how my mind works. These men instead of complaining & blaming other people need to self reflect as I have & figure out what is wrong with them & improve themselves, like I am trying to do. It is nobodie's fault, but mine that I'm a 26 year old virgin, who's never really been in a relationship or even kissed a girl/woman. Until that day, these people will remain alone in their lives until they do what is needed. I don't feel sorry for them, they do it to themselves.

[Bluemax]

"I know this is an unpopular opinion..."

It's strange that compassion for people who are mistaken is unpopular, isn't it? I admire your compassion, OliviaDenny2000. My brother works with people who have been rejected all their lives, but they never turned down the road of violence and hating the opposite sex. Perhaps because my brother never mocks them.

"Loneliness isn't something to shame..."

AMEN!!! And you know this at 18, when I've seen people on GAG twice your age who mock them, mistakenly thinking they're going to shock them into action.

[Bluemax]

@DeadRosesWithWine
"I've only just realized this about myself & from this point forward am working on this myself"

Bravo! What made you decide to do it?

[DeadRosesWithWine]

@Bluemax Many factors take a role in it, traumatic events such as one of my best friends killing himself, friendships between people I cared about deeply that ended in a way I wish they didn't, & losing a lot of friends I had, because I chose to associate myself with bad people to help out a friend that became a love interest that ended on a very bad note.

[Bismarck12]

Giving this demographic any sort of attention is just giving them what they want. It's why they go on mass killing sprees and spread hatred. They're so discontent with their lives that they become totally immersed in some sort of illusive fantasy. I would be inclined to agree that they are a product of our exclusive society.

[OliviaDenny2000]

@DeadRosesWithWine Keep in mind, not everyone's situation is the same. Some guys truly are screwed over for being nice, or many other reasons.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Believe me I know what you mean. I had a friend that pretended to be my friend, yes initially when I befriended her it was because I thought she was absolutely gorgeous, but eventually we became really good friends & fell in love with her kind hearted & sweet personality, only to find out months later, after spending money on her, buying her gifts, etc. That she just wanted to use me & that I was just a joke to her basically.

[Guanfei]

As someone who never had a girlfriend, was rejected my whole life, and ended up as lonely as a steak at a vegan party, I thank you for your comment.
Sure, I'm not as hateful and bitter as them, but let's say the fair sex didn't leave me a good taste.
People find funny that people can't have a girlfriend, seeing them rejected is subject to mockery. That makes it even worse for them, because the world suddenly look against them while they did nothing wrong.
And that is a terrible blow to confidence. You end up thinking that if everyone mocks you, then you're probably a terrible human being.
I know it because it went like that for me. As a child I was extremely friendly, anyone talking to me was my friend. Then people started mocking me, I was ginger, I wasn't exactly the most good looking child. At first that made me angry, then shy, then totaly lonely. People don't mesure how much what they consider a "joke" is hurtful. Especially when everyone repeat it, for years.
I understand those guys.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

@Guanfei I couldn't agree more with what you typed that is exactly how I feel. Didn't think anyone could understand it as bad as I do.

[Puppylover_129]

I think its scary and kinda sad that these men turn all spiteful for not being able to get a woman. While I agree, there are women out there that suck, there's no need to think rape or murder is the way to go.

[Benedek38]

Just pointing out, judging an entire community based on the notion that a single member did something horrible, and got media attention for it, is not exactly an honest thing to do.
Case in point: The SCUM manifesto.
The funny thing is that this book is STILL incredibly popular with feminists. It was written by Valerie Solanas, who later went on to kill Andy Warhol. I could make a case against the entire feminist movement based on this single person, and the fact that people are TO THIS DAY backing her views.

[Cyhhgg]

@Benedek38 Andy Warhol died of cardiac arrhythmia.

That said, you pretty much missed the whole point of what she was saying by providing the old addage of "not all men do this".

Boring.

[Benedek38]

@Cyhhgg
1) Warhol's gunshot wounds apparently contributed to complications during the surgery. In a way, that's being instrumental to his death. But I admit, I was mistaken. That beinf said, intent to kill shows character flaws, regardless of whether the killing was successful.
2) "you pretty much missed the whole point of what she was saying by providing the old addage of "not all men do this"."
Except I didn't. She said:
"I think its scary and kinda sad that these men turn all spiteful for not being able to get a woman. While I agree, there are women out there that suck, there's no need to think rape or murder is the way to go."
Not only are not all incels like that - actually the vast majority of them aren't. Fun fact: chances are you were an incel at some point in your life. Inceldom is not defined by discontent for women.
I am resentful of my own lack of success in dating. I qualify as an incel. And you calling me names is not fair in the very least - you don't know me.

[Benedek38]

@Cyhhgg Oh, and I couldn't give a shit if I bored you. If you are so pathetically dependant on cheap thrills and hooks that you can't read two paragraphs without boredom, that says a lot more about you than my writing.

[majorG]

Sad situation. There is no excuse for violence.

At the same time, it would be good if we as a society recognized that a lot of men (of all ages) lack guidance when it comes to the opposite sex. Men have to take a pretty active role when it comes to dating, and a lot of men are either not learning what that entails, or are being fed poor quality information.

[goaded]

Yes!

All children should be taught positive ways to deal with rejection; unless you're very lucky, it's a fact of life, whether with friends, jobs or the opposite sex.

In general, you can expect a long line of rejecttions, before you find your place, and probably a few where you thought you had, but hadn't.

It's not always clear that it's OK to reject other people (gently), as well. You know it will hurt them, but if they've have been taught to deal with it, it won't be too bad.

[Trolloween]

I find it tragic but also understandable to some extent. It's always a personality issue and it's so frustrating hearing them all complain about looks when 90% of the ones I have seen aren't ugly at all

[coachTanthony]

I couldn't agree more.. most of the ones that identify with this culture are not bad looking dudes.

[bacca400]

But a 30yo guy still living with his parents, and STILL hasn't saved a penny for his future, it not exactly attractive to a woman either. I sure wouldn't date a woman without financial security either. I can't blame the women for making the same choice.

[coachTanthony]

@bacca400 I am sure that is an issue as well but If we had to pin point the major issues with these men it would be social awkwardness and mental issues. They can't function normally around women and maybe anyone for that matter. Just look up some of these guys on You Tube. After listening for a few minutes you can tell immediately.

[Bluemax]

I believe that they can be potentially dangerous people who need to be dealt with accordingly. I believe that many mistakenly believe they can't find intimacy with a woman due to circumstances beyond their control, without realizing that in most cases it is very much *within* their control. I believe that probably due to learned hopelessness they think that they can do nothing to better themselves and their situation. In most cases, they are profoundly wrong.

The question remains what to do about them. Well, this is something my brother has dealt with quite a bit (more on that later). I'm actually vehemently against anti-hate speech laws, as they are, I believe, an unnecessary limit on free speech. Rather, I believe that men can make themselves good role models, and men and women alike can encourage them to improve themselves. I would be very interested to know about the fathers of these incels. Something tells me they were men who could use some improvement themselves.

Now, where I part company with *many* people on GAG is that many feel they can just name call and insult them into action. By calling them pieces of shit, or garbage, or pathetic losers, they somehow believe that they are being brutally honest and this will make them see the error of their ways.

I almost hate to think people could be so foolish.

Firstly, I think that people who use those terms are dishonest in that they often don't really believe it will help. They are using those terms because they're exasperated and annoyed. Secondly, overwhelmingly those terms will just make people more defensive and unwilling to listen. If you don't understand this, you're profoundly mistaken.

Now interestingly, my brother has been working with incels decades before the term became widespread. He has counseled people with disabilities, who for various reasons haven't experienced intimacy. All of them are repelled by this recent eruption of violence. All. This leads me to think that for every one Elliot Roger, there are hundreds of guys who can't find a mate who don't kill, and who never will. They just go about their lives as best they can. The guys on reddit and 4chan and other web sights are, I believe, a very vocal minority... but it troubles me they seem to be growing.

[Bluemax]

P. S. CoachTanthony, are you a buckeye? How does one become a dating coach?

[coachTanthony]

I am a buckeye and to become a dating coach you have to be very unlucky LOL.

[Bluemax]

What part of Ohio are you from?

What qualifications make one a dating coach?

[coachTanthony]

I am in the Nati.. and I wouldn't say there are any specific qualifications but you need to know what your doing... so lot's of practice on my part for the last 10 years. It's just like anything.

[Bluemax]

I always think of WKRP, my father and a black coworker having lunch, and Pete Rose when I hear Cincinnati.

[NearlyNapping]

INCEL is nothing new. It's been around since the beginning of humanity. What's new is that now people have a forum (the Internet) to whine and complain about it. The Internet has the ability to take every little thing and amplify it far beyond what it deserves. Then it builds on itself. This INCEL and MGTOW stuff would not be happening if not for the Internet.

This is also about the modern entitlement attitude. Everyone seems to think they somehow deserve things, like it's supposed to be automatically given to them. This applies to a whole lot more than just INCEL.

Something that just popped in my head. I think I'm going to add porn to this. Among other things, it gives these guys an outside-looking-in feeling - more than they already had. The are reminded over and over again, at the click of a button, what they are missing out on. Again, the Internet. Not long ago that wasn't even possible.

People today voice such strong opinions against labeling and stereotypes. But I swear people today are dramatically more into labels than any time in the past. People want to label everyone else, and they want to label themselves. They want to be in some category, as if that gives them identity. They want to be INCEL. They want to be MGTOW. They want to be bi, or demi, or pan, or CIS. They even want their very own pronouns to go along with it. It's like people today don't even know who they are unless they find the right word, the right label.. "Me" doesn't seem to be enough any more.

To INCEL or not to INCEL, that is the question. To INCEL? OK, now go start killing people.

There have been INCELs since forever. There have been MGTOWs forever. The difference is that now they are proactive about it. They seem to think that women MUST accept them, date them, take them to bed. This is just one of the many facets of entitlement. If they don't get what they are entitled to, they throw a temper tantrum.

Last but not least. People need to get away from the god damned computer or mobile device. They need to go out in the real world. Get some exercise instead of letting all that pent up energy build up until it explodes. Humans aren't made to sit on their ass all day. They need to go out and run a marathon, or do some physical labor. Then they'll be too tired to go out shooting people.

One last thing. They are going about it wrong. But these INCEL and MGTOW guys do have some valid points. People really should listen instead of totally writing them off.

[Joeofalltrades]

A bunch of guys that think they're entitled to something that they are not. A bunch of guys who want the hottest chick but have no self esteem or any other qualities that a hot chick would want. A bunch of guys that are too lazy to workout and train and have a better body and life and think they should just have everything because they're entitled to do so. A bunch of guys that think to be happy they need a woman instead of being happy with themselves and that it happens naturally. A bunch of guys that have no dreams no real career goals they just have jobs with no aspirations for anything better then just dead end nothing. A bunch of guys that probably should have played a little bit more Sports when they were younger so they learned how to lose without being a pansy and taking it out on everyone. These kind of people need to get over themselves Society does not give a flying fuck about them. If you want to stand out in the world do something that the world wants and then all of that other socioeconomic stuff falls into place but they don't teach people this in school they're more worried about teaching them how to choose their gender and pronouns another useless fucking bullshit that means absolutely nothing in the real world. These guys have left high school and University being taught by liberal-left bullshit pansies that couldn't make it in the real world and now they're ruining these people by teaching them the same garbage because they are the same. These are the guys that cannot fight their own fight.

[englisc]

It's nothing new. In the past there's evidence that shows that 80% of women managed to reproduce while only 40% of men did. Some say that today when it comes to sex 80% of women have sex with 20% of men - that isn't backed up by any solid evidence but there have been studies done for example on sites like OKCupid where women rated 80% of the men there as being below average in terms of attractiveness, perhaps that's where that statistic comes from, and the idea that only 1 in 5 men can get laid regularly isn't that hard to believe.

This is one of the reasons for the introduction of monogamous marriage in modern civilisation. In order to incentivise the bottom 60-80% of men to become more productive they created the agreement for each men to have only one wife, thus giving those men who otherwise would have no sexual access, sexual access and the ability to have a family. Without that they wouldn't feel any real need to contribute to that society - one of the biggest motivations to do so would be to ensure a good life for their children - which they wouldn't care about if they didn't have any.

Cultures with more monogamous marriages became more cohesive as a result of this. Those that loosened sexual morals and freed women from the expectation of marriage lost that cohesion and eventually either got invaded or collapsed, especially since many of the men just abandoned that civilisation.

Also, many of those men without sexual access would become violent and lash out at that society. Men are naturally more aggressive - that aggression can either be used for good (protecting the women, children, society as a whole) or bad (destroying it). Take away their ability to have sex, relationships, families etc. and it goes bad.

That's not a justification, it just is what it is. It's human nature. Always has been and always will be.

[Bananaman177]

They didn't volunteer, they were drafted.

And it could VERY EASILY happen to YOUR son.

Every generation, a new crop of happy bouncing baby boys is born, and their mommies love them very much and want nothing but happiness and love for them, but we all know how it goes, some kids have all the good luck, some have all the bad luck, and most are in the middle somewhere. These guys are the happy bouncing baby boys who are growing up to discover that they won't get to experience the good things in life, they are here to work a crappy job and die alone, and that feeling of hopelessness and self-disgust is a horrific war that they wage in their mind every day, and most of them feel like they're losing ground steadily, and the only thing that could help them, the love and understanding and support of other people, and good friendship and fellowship and community, is the one thing that is always DENIED to them, and whether that's their fault, everybody else's fault, or nobody's fault, the fact is it's sad but true.

These people are clawing their fingernails out against a concrete prison screaming in agony for the tiniest little show of love and affection, they're starved of it. If you have no sympathy for them, or if you actively despise them for some perceived crime on their part, I think you're being a straight up shithead for real. That's all.

These people are some mother's babies, and they're fucking drowning and nobody will help them. Fuck YOU if you feel like it's your job to make them feel worse. I know there are many people who like to hurt and humiliate these people for fun. You'll be held to account for every bit of it, plus interest.

[Bluemax]

"These people are clawing their fingernails out against a concrete prison screaming in agony for the tiniest little show of love and affection, they're starved of it"

I think you're right. Where we may differ is that I believe in most cases it is a prison of their own making. And can we agree that screaming in agony, while very understandable (even inevitable sometimes), is unproductive?

Like you, I believe in showing sympathy even for people who are fucking their own lives, but that sympathy isn't infinite, nor should it be.

So other than showing sympathy, what else can be done?

[goaded]

There's a related article, here: http://www.BBC.co.uk/news/stories-43956366 "'I'm sad that I didn't have sex until I was 37'"

"One of the things that most worries me about the publicity around the Toronto attack is that people who are still looking for love may feel stigmatised and have a sense of shame.

It might perpetuate the idea that people who have yet to find love are socially awkward and in some way weird. I felt I was perfectly normal before I found my wife and I was perfectly normal after - I didn't change. There is nothing unusual about me.

There are plenty of people looking for love who are not hate-filled. It would be a shame if we conflated whatever drove the Toronto attacker with people looking for a human need.

There is no right or entitlement to being loved or finding love, but looking for love is still a valid wish in life. Not having love is not anybody's fault, it's just circumstances."

[Servus09]

This is what happens when schools and society put girls before boys for over 30 years straight. In schools, little boys can't even chew their pop tarts into the shape of a gun or they will get expelled. Then we see this constant talk about how girls and women are soooo oppressed.

Well, as a man, I can tell you nobody ever gave two fucks about me as a child... ever. I had feminist teacher's tell me to my face to stop trying because I'm stupid. Do you have any idea what that does to a 12-year-old? It makes them give up completely. Meanwhile, girls get all these special programs where they can learn without the boys being around. Then there are the boy scouts, which got sued into oblivion by feminists and now they are required to let girls into all aspects of the boy scouts.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand? You can't have strong men if you keep telling them to be like girls and shaming their natural male tendencies. You feminists need to fuck off and stop abusing my little bros. You cunts.

[Bluemax]

I wish you were in my class.

[Servus09]

@Bluemax
Why is that?

[RationalMale]

I have a coworker like this. He spends all his time playing video games, talks about how he doesn't even bother having dating apps on his phone, etc.

He's an obese slob with a bad haircut and an overgrown gross beard. I tried to talk to him about getting to a gym and working out, playing only 5 hours of games a week, etc. He wasn't interested.

My impression? Most of these guys are either burnt from bad relationships (these guys I feel sorry for, they need some alone time and some good hobbies and friends and some gym and yoga classes) or they are pathetic losers who won't put in the needed work (they can go die of drug overdose for all I care).

getting a woman is like getting a job. You gotta make your resume the best you can, work to make it good, and then get it to as many employers as possible.

You don't want to work to improve your resume, you don't want to apply, or risk rejection at interviews? Well, life's tough. Some people can't cut it.

[IlyaTheImpaler]

I have only read Elliot's "My twisted world", as recommended by my friends, to learn English.
I find it among the most brilliant black comedies I've read. It's too bad that it is not ironic.
img.4plebs.org/.../1452655407155.png

genius.com/Elliot-rodger-my-twisted-world-the-story-of-elliot-rodger-part-6-3-annotated

The main character's worldview is hilarious, and so tragic at a deeper level. It's a tale of a very lost boy, a KHV at 22 living in a place like Isla Vista (where almost everyone is fucking everyone else) is basically like everyday waking up to a nightmare, watching everyone around him having what he can't have, and he ended up lashing out at the world.

Sadly, he decided to kill those innocent people. He allegedly has a very shitty family and he was so lost on his path to adulthood. In the attempt of "revenge", he didn't go for the people who wronged him, instead he just killed his roommate (who probably has as much sex as he does) and some random Chads and Stacies, then himself...😒 perhaps this random element is a fitting ending to "My twisted world".

I wish I could've been his friend when he had no one to share this frustration with (just the sound of his little sister being fucked in the next room 🤔). I would try my best to convince him that some girl saying cruel things to him or his lack of sex are such frivolous and quirky parts of his life and should be treated as such (write a book about them!), but there are much more beautiful things in this world worth dying for.

I don't know anything about the INCEL thingy though, aside from it stands for Involuntary Celibacy and Elliot is considered an Incel.

[Bluemax]

You know, I read his manifesto. I also saw his Youtube channel and FB page before they were taken down (I was listening to NPR that day, and his name leaked out as it was happening). I gotta say, as a teacher, his manifesto is actually well written. Pity the content was crap.

As for befriending him, he *had* friends. He also had people attempting to befriend him. He drove them away.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

It's sad, as a 26 year old virgin who has chased, been friendzoned, & heartbroken by several women. I understand the pain & frustration of feeling so alone. However, that doesn't mean this is the way to go about it. It's not so much that men put pressure on ourselves, it's because of our peers. Not only are you seen as less of a man if you have less sex, but you're constantly berated & mocked if you are a virgin. I love how everyone is trying to turn this around & say it's because they have too high of standards. That simply just isn't the case at all, I for example have fallen in love with someone that many wouldn't find attractive, but her personality & how good of friends we were melded so well together, unfortunately she was out of my league, imparently. When you feel like you are the ugliest person on earth compared to other men, not only do you feel worthless, but it eats away at you. Not a day goes by, where I don't hate myself or wish I was never born. To live your life solely for the purpose of finding another mate is ridiculous, but when you are surrounded by people who are constantly happy & then are mocked for being alone by ones who are closest to you instead of trying to help, it makes life seem not worth living. All these guys in Incel who want to kill & rape women, I don't agree with that at all. I could never intentionally hurt another human being like these guys want to, no matter how much people hurt, take advantage of, or use me. (Female or not.) I couldn't do it. The whole movement & culture makes me hate myself & people like me even more. Because now this is what represents people like me. Not genuinely sweet guys who just have bad luck with women, making it even harder for me to ever find happiness. If anyone should be raped & murdered it's these fucking assholes.

[Bluemax]

"When you feel like you are the ugliest person on earth compared to other men, not only do you feel worthless, but it eats away at you."

This is probably a serious contributing factor as to why you are alone. Do you mind if I message you?

[DeadRosesWithWine]

@Bluemax If you want, sure.

[Bluemax]

In order to message you, you'll have to follow me.

Or I could just talk to you on this thread. Whichever you prefer.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

@Bluemax Followed you back.

[Anonymous]

"Misogyny at the heart of the manosphere."
Mainstream media continues to fumble and misrepresent anything politically incorrect at every turn. Imagine my surprise.

"Angry and bitter"
They're having a shit time in life. It would be weird if they weren't angry and bitter. Enduring anguish and coming out the other side with a positive attitude is not a given. Sure it would be great if they could just take everything well and cope with everything as well as people who's problems have never compared... except that would be dumb to expect that. So they're angry and bitter and now that they got attention, instead of doing something to help them we're instead going to rant about all the hate and insist that it invalidates their pain, damn them further, put them on the to-be-censored list. Don't fix the problem just cover it over, make it quiet so it can fester deeper and hurt more, good idea.

People still apparently haven't noticed that they call others sources of hate to objectify, dehumanize and mark them as a target of hate.

A dismal excuse for journalism once again.

[thingwithfeathers]

Elliot Rodger shot seven people in 2014 and was an incel. Very recently, a man killed ten people and injured 14 in a van attack after praising Elliot Rodger and declaring an 'incel rebellion'.
Is there anything left to say?
I know not all these men are as extreme but they're still so full of resentment and spite. Mentally, I do not think these men are sound.
They can't be happy when hate consumes them.
These men are misogynistic and advocate rape and violence towards women. They'll inevitably keep this attitude for most of their life not realising that it is that same attitude holding them back.

[OliviaDenny2000]

And even though Elliot Rodger, and the others were sick, I do feel sorry for them in a roundabout way. Their loneliness drove them to that point (not justifying their actions at all, to make that clear).

[Servus09]

Very few of these men seriously advocate rape and violence. You have to understand how men think. We get frustrated with women all the time, even if we are in a relationship, and telling other men we would like to chop our girlfriend/wife up with an axe is a way some men choose to vent those frustrations. They wouldn't actually do it. The same is true for these INCEL men. They are venting their frustrations online.

[Bananaman177]

"No man is an island."

It's easy for you to focus on what's wrong with their attitude, I'd love to see what your attitude was like if you were born a beta male, always knowing that your best will never be good enough, nobody will ever want you, people don't even like being in the same room as you, and everybody would be happier if you were gone. And all because you were born looking a certain way, or because you have unpopular interests and poor social skills and maybe a bad childhood. I'd love to see how your attitude held up to that kind of life.

[thingwithfeathers]

@OliviaDenny2000 Agreed. I think a little empathy is good in instances like this. No matter how abhorrent their actions, they are a product of deep-rooted issues in our society. It's sad that this guy's loneliness and unstable mental health led to him take his own life and the lives of innocent people.

[thingwithfeathers]

@Servus09 I don't know how true that is. There is a clear difference between 'ugh, bloody women' and the incel 'movement'. The proof is in the pudding. There have been two incidents already of extremely violent behaviour. I think it's pretty obvious that these men are misogynistic. I think they're comparable to radical feminists in the sense that they have or feel that they have been treated unfairly by the opposite sex and now hates every woman/man despite who they might be as an individual. All men are rapists, pigs, entitled, etc. vs all women are money hungry, whores, unempathetic. It's sexism no matter how you look at it.

[thingwithfeathers]

@Bananaman177 I'm focusing on the fact that these men are most likely not mentally healthy. I could make a pretty confident bet that they are far more likely to be suicidal than the average guy. I know men that have had the same luck in life and while it gets them down they don't have the same misogynistic ideology.

[Servus09]

I have visualized punching my ex-girlfriend in the face. I don't recall telling my friends I would like to punch her in the face, but that sort of thing does get said. The difference is I knew that was wrong and I didn't act on my thoughts. If these men were acting out on the thoughts they put on the internet there would be a bloodbath.

I have also been on websites like 4chan where men talk about these things. For a lot of them, it's just a sick joke. You really should check it out sometime. There are even black guys on there spewing racial mixing to destroy the white race. They are lonely men and this is what happens when lonely guys come together to entertain each other.

[OliviaDenny2000]

Right. I think some of it is extreme masculinity, and they have to be "macho" and have sex with as many girls as possible. I think there are many issues with society which causes this.

[Bananaman177]

So if their leg was fucked up, you'd have all the sympathy in the world for them, but because their brain is the problem, too bad, so sad?

[Canuckto]

Elliot hated Asian men because he was half white. He felt he should be able to get a woman since Asian men are the bottom of the dating pool. That is why he shot a few Asian men.

[Servus09]

@OliviaDenny2000
It's not "extreme masculinity" or toxic masculinity. Men are just different than women. You're also missing my point. Things said on the internet are most often a way for men to vent their frustrations. I know it's not the healthiest way to vent, but it's better than actually putting those thoughts into action. Which again, if that's what men were doing, you would have actual cause for concern. In the real world (at least in the west) you're far less likely to be harmed by a stranger than a man is. That's a fact.

[Canuckto]

@Servus09 Men are expected not to show any emotions and then expected have emotional intelligence.

[brocklee]

Illogical idiots.

Incel. Involuntarily Celibate.

The FACT is, pussy is available. All over the place. They say that they are being deprived sex? Bullshit. They set they standards to an unreasonable level. They are choosing to go without sex rather than go below the unreasonable standards they have set for themselves. This makes it a choice. That makes it voluntary.

Now. For the worst flaw in this logic: These pussies will cry "I am supposed to lower my standards and sleep with someone I am not attracted to?"

The exact scenario they are bitching women are putting them through. They are the worst form of hypocrites. They are loud and trying organize hypocritical. High horse hypocritical.

[InsertCoolName]

It's dangerous. I understand that as a man there's intense pressure to lose your virginity and it can feeling absolutely humiliating and demoralizing to be a kissless virgin when you don't want to be, but incels don't handle their frustration in a healthy way.

They seem to hate all women and girls (and often men who have lost their virginity) and some literally advocate rape or removing women's rights. Frequently they even use racist (referring to black men as "Tyrones" or Indians as "-pret" ) language as well.

[sugarette]

I think the entire concept is silly, sick and stupid, and these guys don’t have my shoulder to cry on.

[sugarette]

To elaborate; it’s certainly not something that justifies driving a van onto a crowded sidewalk and mowing down as many women as you can like an ISIS-inspired terrorist; and I hope that nutjob in Toronto gets everything that’s coming to him. Not being able to get laid as often as you’d like is a problem every guy has to deal with. What makes them special? They came up with a word for the phenomenon, like "incel", so now it’s a disease, and they're poor sufferers of it? Some women, somewhere, owe them to give them some? What’s next, they want the government to declare them members of a protected minority group and require women to have sex with them once or twice a month?
Incels are pathetic, point blank.

[Dchrls78104]

@sugarette Yes, they are. They themselves will tell you that. But they are also the product of our society. They remind me of the tag line of the movie about the Frankenstein's monster: "If I cannot inspire love, I will cause fear!".
Most of us respect what is called "social Darwinism". This doctrine, in the end, is translated "only the strong survive". The weak, like the Incels, are thrown to the kerb.
Now I don't support or make excuses for them. I'm a Christian, and INCEL ideology conflicts with Christian principles. Also incompatible with Christian teaching, however, is how we generally treat each other. This is the real genesis of movements like INCEL.
They're our monster, our problem.
We created them, and we it is who must deal with them.

[sugarette]

@DchrIs78104 Like, if these guys are not getting any, and they consider that to be a problem... hanging out online with a bunch of other guys who aren't getting any and having a pity party over it together isn't going to solve the problem. They need to be doing something else, like maybe going out and meeting women. That one's a no-brainer: only someone with no brains would not think of it.
I do have sympathy for an awkward, kind man who struggles with dating. Eventually that guy will grow and learn and find a partner. But I have no sympathy for an awkward, cruel dude who struggles with basic empathy. That person is dangerous. I think most of these guys need therapy.

[Dchrls78104]

@sugarette What you are talking about is individuals taking responsibility for themselves and their actions. I totally agree with you there. Incels are sadly misguided terrorists, and all terrorists deserving of execution. Yet I maintain that they're a problem modern society has created.
Incels are loth to go out and meet women. They might tell you, "I'm ugly. If I go out and meet women, they'll only insult me and drive me away." This is one of the excuses they may make. Another is that society today doesn't treat men like it should. For many men, both are true.
The mind of the INCEL is a very dark place. Only the light of love and truth can drive such darkness out. If a child is neglected or mistreated by his family, he may join a criminal gang seeking the love and respect he doesn't get at home. Unless we as humans in general learn to treat each other better than we do now, Incel ideology will continue to sway many men.

[thingwithfeathers]

@sugarette Unfortunately, that is an actual request Incels have made. They want the government to provide them with women for their sexual pleasure. There is no limit to their insanity.
Groups like Incels harbour misogynistic, often racist and pseudo-scientific ideology.
These ideologies are born in spite, rejection and -pain-.
I know it is hard to do when their actions, at times, are unforgivable but we need to have a little empathy.
Not sympathy, but an understanding that their way of thinking is actually understandable, though still abhorrent.

[Bananaman177]

You don't owe anybody one bit of sympathy or compassion.

But nobody else owes you any either, don't be so quick to ration it like it was some precious thing that was gonna run out and you have to horde it all to yourself and only give it out to who YOU like.

You won't always be the lucky one, sweetheart. You'll have to depend on the kindness of strangers many times to get through this life, you'd better hope that the strangers you meet aren't broken and destroyed inside, it's just a little pro-tip. What goes around comes around.

[sugarette]

Again, I do have sympathy for a guy who's shy and anxious but has good intentions at heart and understands basic human decency. I know guys like this and they're pretty cool. But I don't care about guys who think women owe them sex/relationships, or guys who think it's women's fault if they can't get laid and express their frustration through misogyny and violence against women. Not every guy is attracted to me, yet you don't see me calling men selfish, whores, bitches, superficial, etc. I don't blame other people for being single either.
Also, I would never willingly talk to an incel nor befriend one, so. This is out of the question.

[Bananaman177]

So by "incel," you specifically mean the nasty ones?

I'd say less than half of all incels fall into that category.

[sugarette]

I don't trust anyone whom willingly identifies with the Incel movement as it is now. I'd trust MGTOW way more, since they focus on themselves without continuously bashing and hating women.

[Canuckto]

The Toronto van attack was staged. I have seen the video footage which was deleted from youtube. Incel rebellion? These guys are too busy wanting to get laid. They are so weak it is sad.

[Canuckto]

@sugarette The main stream media claims the incels comes from the manosphere which MRAs, MGTOW and PUA community. It's all staged crap trying to silence men. Men might be pissed off at women but in our hearts we wouldn't be able to physically hurt someone over it.

[sugarette]

@Canuckto Yeah, people being wounded and dying is staged. You got me. Can't belive I just got 0wned.

[sugarette]

*believe.
I know that most men wouldn't kill women for it but some do, even if they're rare.

[BarfVader]

With respect, I think what you don't get is that many of those guys probably started out like okay boys. It's kind of traumatic to see everyone around you pair off and to find that impossible yourself. Worse still, I feel like some women don't understand this because they will literally never be in that situation. They may feel lonely, they may be with a dickhead, but women are generally a lot more comfortable reaching out than men are. And women will just always be able to find a guy to sleep with or to provide for them. Not that those guys will necessarily be good guys, and sure, women have their struggles too, but I have lived too long and seen to much to accept that in this department they are quite as screwed as many guys. Or rather: not screwed, so-to-speak.

[Mr_Smile]

The movement is caused by a bigger problem, namely feminism and how men are treated as a whole in modern society. We've almost done a full 180, and instead of having equality, feminism has created inequality. Men are becoming the oppressed sex, so it's not surprising to see some groups pop up from it. This is the first I hear of this group, but it really doesn't surprise me given how men are treated these days. People can scream mysogony all they want, but at the end of the day, groups like these wouldn't exist if they didn't have to.

[TayTay21]

I think this is a symptom of larger problem. Our society on the whole is sick. People are so messed up, they have mental health issues and drug problems stemming from how messed up life is. A lot of these guys don't have anyone around them to keep them tethered to reality. People left alone for long periods of time go crazy. That's why solitary confinement is a punishment.

[jaidee]

Totally legitimate in origin because women have an unfairly great power in dating and because they lie about what they pretend to desire in a man.

But turning this state of suffering into a culture seems odd to me. If they go check PUA culture, they can start finding answers, even tough the road ahead of them is a long one.

Women have no empathy for men (cf. Women are wonderful effect) and society only cares about addressing women's problems. So, nobody will help these guys fix the reason why they're being overlooked. If you already check women's comments here and news articles following the recent tragedy, nobody ever considers how destructive it is for someone's life to be confined to loneliness. Even if you only focus on sex, even though these guys probably lack affection more than sex... sex in Maslow's hierarchy is as necessary as food (go check!)

Truth-haters, show me those thumbs down!

[bacca400]

Well, sex really is on the same level as food. That's a new one for me. www.learning-theories.com/...erarchy-of-needs.html Someone doesn't need sex to physically survive, it's more of a Quality of Life thing. This hierarchy doesn't even list sex: www.goodtherapy.org/.../hierarchy-of-needs-graphic

Second, I disagree that all women are the same as you painted them to be. Yes, a lot of them are real cheapskates and won't ever pay for a date. That's fine, they won't get LTR from me.

Third, your perception that women have more power in dating is not reality. If you don't know how to manage money to pay for some dates, that's your problem, not women's.

Fourth, younger women are very immature. Women mature physically earlier than men, but mentally much later than men. If you aren't finding good women at your age guess whose fault it is? Look in the mirror.

[jaidee]

Sex is a need. From the bottom of the pyramid. Even you acknowledge it but shy away from its meaning. Not having access to sex may truly damage people.

Second, you misread what I wrote. I guess this is willful on your part. I never said "ALL women". This is an aggregate. PLUS... I gave an explicit reference to the "women are wonderful effect". But it seems you're unfamiliar with psychology and can't be bothered to learn even when given explicit references.

Third, you missed the mark by light years. I didn't mention not alluded to money (which I have aplenty). I alluded to online dating and apps. Any woman even fuglies and obese women can find a sex partner (and probably more) in minutes or hours at most, while average men may struggle getting dates for months if not more.

Fourth: I take responsibility for part of my difficulties. But you seem eager to dismiss how odds are stacked in women's favor.

[MarketData]

Unfortunately sex is a team sport. As yet there's no way to administer it intravenously. And there's a massive shortage of women willing to have sex with self-pitying scumbags.

[jaidee]

Should I take this message as an acknowledgement of everything I said above?
... plus an insult to virtue-signal how much you won't be associated with the hurtful truth I'm telling?
I'm but a scumbag among 7 billion others... But I'm at peace with the truth (s).

[Investigator]

I agree with Ben Shapiro on this one. The Incel movement is essentially what happens the culture puts the cart before the horse.

Basically, through extensive, entrenched saturation of pornography into every form of media, sex has been elevated from an action to a state: the presumption is that everyone is engaging in it and having it, and if you fail to have lost your virginity by some arbitrary point in life, you are considered a loser, there must be something wrong with you. This kind of thinking turns being a virgin into an implied state of deficiency, since not having sex is now assumed to be a character fault. Thus, men now more feel pressure than ever to have sex and lose their virginity; if not because it is natural, then because they are laughed at by other men and looked down on by women as "lesser".

I mean, "what kind of loser hasn't banged at least one womanl by the age of 30? What are you, a mangina/incel/ugly dude who can't get any? What's your excuse?"

[madhatters4]

I think INCEL culture is a great result of the dangers of toxic masculinity. i know that phrase is inflammatory and many believe it to be some slam on men but i think our culture has put to much stress on men to see their value inherently linked to their success with women.

if you can't get women labels like loser, pussy, gay, beta, etc, etc get cast on you that are simply unfair and dangerous. now the reports from the texas shooter are that he was broekn by a rejection from a girl. we have the example in california of the Elliott guy resorted to fatal violence due to a bruised ego after years of rejection

but perhaps if the value of a man's masculinity wasn't so tied up having sex we wouldn't have men resorting to misogyny and violence as a result of rejection.