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We will see two main relationship options and they already have begun gaining traction.
Some women will choose to engage with multiple men below their level. We see this with open relationships and cuckolding. She has 2 boyfriends both kinda meh in terms of dating desirability. Also just women in general cheating because they dont care much about their relationship and find it hard to remain attracted to a man below them. Which stats show female cheating has increased greatly over past few decades.
Alternatively the top tier men which is like top 20% at most but maybe even less. These men will have multiple women. I've personally been part of this group and have maintained 2 or more women at a time pretty consistently. I know other men do this too. Just look at what some more public higher top tier men and what they do. Ie hugh hefner, dan bilzarian...
This is happening because the dating scene had gone far out of whack. The average man has little or no dating value at all. Almost all women have an average mediocre value. And top tier men are highly valuable but rare. So you have a huge mass of women wanting a tiny slice of men. The tiny slice of men have no incentive to do anything other than what they want because so many women want them and are desperate for them. Then you have a huge portion of men with basically no value.
So a woman who plays on that level can treat them like shit have a bill payer and a fuck buddy and a simp at work who covers her shifts when she asks. This is at the expense of having one man who is financially well off and sexually attractive. Because that man already has 3 girlfriends but this girl either is unwilling to share or unable to attract that man.
It doesn't matter because men don't value a woman's financial earnings. Women DO value a man's financial earnings a lot though so the men that earn a lot have many options. So many that they often won't stay faithful because they know the women are easily replaceable. And once a woman passes 30 her options quickly decrease for an exclusive LTR with a good man no matter how much money she makes. I think the question is flawed though because money isn't the only quality people look for so just because someone has less money, that doesn't mean someone is "dating down" when being with them. Good men are almost always "dating down" when it comes to being with someone with as good of morals and that contributes to the relationship and family as much.
I’m over 30 and I actually attract more interesting and compatible men than I did when I was 20. Back then I was still very young and immature and unless they were my age and similarly inclined, the older guys were attracted to me for the wrong reasons. I don’t want a partner who values only my youth and does not care about the state of my character - fact is, the youth fades, the character develops and the “relationship” will crumble. Also, I was much less likely to compromise at 20, as I was very headstrong and independent minded. Nowadays I am much more likely to consider how my actions affect others, as I have experience a wider palette of adult life.
@Medicalbug im not in your position but i can't tell if either your confused or lying. I can't logically see how what you say is possible and since we are dealing with men id have to assume there is at least some logic to it. A family oriented man would never choose a woman in her 30s so that can't be the kind of men you're finding. Any man who wants to have a few kids and the family unit is very important to him just would not risk it with an older woman. So definitely you can't be finding those men more now in your 30s than in your 20s. High income men are also generally desirable. High income men can attract pretty much any kind of woman they want. So if a man can choose a 23 year old or a 35 year old all things equal they choose the 23 year old. Its not rocket science. So your not getting the high earning men. So not family oriented and not high earning... im sure there's other kinds of good men but thats a huge chuck of them gone that you had access to in your 20s. So it just doesn't seem likely you have more available in your 30s. Now i say confused because these same men will want casual relationships and personally I've banged or dated lots of girls in their 30s but im never serious about them... because they are in their 30s. So i think maybe you're confusing casual interest for serious interest? I also think it could be lying because that is something people tend to do. In my experience women in their 30s are highly desperate just going off the ones i know like neighbors and stuff as well as those I've met out and casually dated.
@bamesjond0069 I don't know what kind of circles you associate in, but I am respectful enough not to accuse you of lying or being confused. I do hope you only act this way online.
Anyway - in my world, over 30 is the age when most women start thinking about having a family. I kid you not. lol In fact, it is not uncommon for many professional women to put off child bearing until their late 30s (even early 40s!). I see it all the time, have been to numerous weddings of friends and family that boast grooms and brides over 30. You might want to check up on the statistics - I lived in Europe for a while, and the average age for a first child is over 30 in many countries. In professional circles, this trend is quite common, even in North America, as many of us spend most of our 20s in school, not having children. Eggs are also being frozen, allowing women even more flexibility when it comes to managing their own fertility.
So I do not agree that "family minded" men avoid women in their 30s. At all. People in their 30s start thinking about families, and once again, they gravitate to those with similar lives and interests.
High earners? Well, I've given you my perspective on that in our previous conversation. I am not interested in people for their money. Are men (and women) attracted to young college age kids due to their youth and virility? Sure. Could I have attracted some wealthy man when I was 21? Probably. But. The reasons for the attraction sound more like criteria for a one night stand than a lasting relationship or grounds for founding a family. I was 21 and very immature, with lots of pent up energy and lessons to learn from life. I made a great partner for someone like myself, but someone more mature? Hell no. Are some women different from me and fully formed at 21? Of course! Perhaps you will find one - I wish you nothing but luck and happiness.
@Medicalbug glad you took it how i meant it but i realize it came off rude. More meant im aware of those two reasons why I've heard women say they get more men in their 30s. I personally dont consider the young professionals who have 1.5 kids to be family oriented people. So maybe thats part of why we describe the same thing differently. I find those people not very interested in family. Id say the most family oriented is someone who wants 6 plus kids homeschooled and a stay at home parent to do it while the opposite end of the spectrum is someone who wants no kids or has an if one pops up i won't mind it is what it is attitude. From my perspective this is why im never surprised when these people divorce and you have a mom or dad who just disappears... to me it seems obvious this will happen since they never cared much to have a kid in the first place and its only one or two kids. Not saying they dont care about their kids but its obviously not their top priority in life. Men who think a family is their ultimate goal and top priority aren't going to settle for one or two kids with a 30 something woman unless its really the best they can do. So while you might view that as family oriented i really dont at all in fact id say the average people in this situation are not really family oriented. I also view most of these men as low in personality, not really powerful personality go with the flow not break any eggs sort of men. The kind that often fold to peer pressure and can be a bit whipped. I know women say this is what they want often but womens actions never seem to support the claim. So based off what i know i just dont really see these as being the best men.
@Medicalbug Lastly from my experience being in the same life stage is the primary thing that holds couples together. This has little or nothing to do with age. Many women dream of having kids at an early age with no means to properly provide. Many men want kids but only after they feel comfortable providing for them and thus you get the 30s male with the 20s female. Im 35 and my girlfriend is 19. We have so much in common. Just not work. Which as a wealthy man i think work is dumb. I dont even work myself so people my age bore me talking about their jobs. I just check my investment reports once a week for 20 minutes and thats about it. So people who work i have nothing in common with actually. I do agree many girls are not mature enough for an older man but many are. You said "The reasons for the attraction sound more like criteria for a one night stand than a lasting relationship or grounds for founding a family." However to me it sounds practical nuts and bolts planning on how to maximize ease and comfort for family planning. From my perspective i view women with careers and in their 30s as the criteria for one night stands because they are independent get their own uber emotionally strong less likely to cry or stalk me as they are emotionally hardened. Its some teen girl id be far more hesitant to have casual sex with. She will rely on me both for money and experience like how do i use the valet to park I've never done it before as an example. And she's not been heartbroken many times and could fall in love instantly. So we seem to see the same thing as before but opposite.
@bamesjond0069 Part Two:
I won’t argue with you that in your world, things are different than in mine. In fact, that is perhaps the only reason we are “discussing” things – it’s due to worlds colliding and generalizations that simply don’t apply to everyone. I guess at this point we are sharing how the other half lives? So here I will be asking you more questions, to further my understanding.
If your girlfriend is mature enough for you at 19 and wants the same things, that is lovely! I am happy for you. In my experience, associating in my circles, I did not know any girls with that level of development at such an age. Mostly, if I saw women this young hooking up with older men, the men themselves were immature or the girls often had an almost parental fixation on the older guy. Your words - “rely on me for money and experience” – are an eerie echo of the kind of attachment these young girls (and young men) would form with these individuals. Now, you are not experiencing that with your girlfriend, which is great! But in my circles, it was often toxic. Not always (of course!), but very rarely did it pan out well. It wasn’t the age itself, but rather a factor of the level of maturity.
I am curious about how you live - since you like it when girls fall in love quickly, aren’t you afraid they might fall out of love just as fast? As a 20 something, I was so fickle in love. Doesn’t the lack of experience make you wonder if they won’t change in five years? Do you ever wonder what would happen if you lost all your money?
I totally agree with you that people who don’t want the same things don’t really attract each other– if you are bored with people who work and don’t want permanent relationships with women over 30, you likely won’t encounter such situations at a high rate, much in the way you are the only person I am currently having this kind of conversation with.
@Medicalbug no she obviously relies on me financially and seeks my guidance since she has very little experience. But thats not eerie but ideal. This is what she was looking for and what i was looking for. We both share the same expectations of what a man and a woman bring to a relationship.
In my experience women are as fickle and immature as the men they are with. The second they have feelings for a mature stable man they are surprise, ready to settle down.
I have no concern about if i lose my money ill lose the girl. I know it may seem like the relationship revolves around money but it really doesn't. It revolves around a traditional masculine and feminine role. If i was a bum and refused to work then sure but simply making far less, no. The key is a gold digger brings nothing to the table while a traditional woman brings a lot of hard work just not at a job, its in the home. My girlfriend likes to cook for events to show off how easily she can make healthy good tasting meals for large numbers of people... to entice me to give her the large family she desires showing she's prepared to do her part. One example.
Personally i know a lot of working women in their 30s because i engage professional society at business events and country clubs and such. However i dont usually even bother to talk to them much about these issues because I've gotten the "you're not a REAL man" thing or similar from a few to many women and even lots of hate just from women seeing me with my girlfriend calling her a loser and a dumb child and such. So i think its interesting to actually talk about this stuff with you.
@bamesjond0069 I am sorry that you receive such negative reactions from the people you meet. I can see how this might fuel generalizations or blanket statements, especially if no one is taking you seriously and treats your girlfriend like a child.
They may be used to situations I have described where such setups were more problematic than they are worthwhile, and/or they simply like to feel superior over other people. If you were my family and you made it clear to me that this was your chosen path in life and you brought home a girl who was completely aligned with your expectations, I would not treat her like a child or ridicule you. If she were lacking in experience and needed people to look up to, I would be more than happy to take her under my wing and try to understand her.
I think a lot of the reactionary responses people have to this scenario is due to the fact that it used to be imposed on all women. While some people adapted well, others could not and did not, often resulting in very sad, desperate stories. So nowadays women who are not "traditional" are very eager to cling to their newfound freedom and often make the mistake of looking down upon those still following guidelines of the past. Maybe we are afraid to lose what we have because it is so new? I don't know, but I can imagine there is a lot of shaming going on. I've discussed it previously on my own question, how these roles used to be favored for selection and it is only recently that this dimorphism is losing traction. So really, I do apologize on behalf of those professional women. Not all of us are like that. We are a bit prickly, however, when people suggest we shouldn't be the way we are. That is wrong too and I hope we can all learn to be more tolerant of each other.
@Medicalbug well i mean a lot of times its because im clearly not interested in them. Like one was hitting on me and i wasn't really returning her interest and on the other side of the of the conference she saw me hitting on a younger intern and she was bad mouthing me all night. Also i mentioned in another post women say they want one thing but their actions don't back that up. Like clearly you made your life choices and would not be interested in me and vice versa. No sweat. But a lot of girls who clearly choose a lifestyle like yours are highly offended when i am not interested. But why would they want a man who believes their career is useless? I do have a theory that most women actually do want to live a traditional lifestyle but they dont realize it. Society highly promotes independent career women. Yet. Once they get a tiny taste some go absolutely nuts thinking about it just the same as one discovers a new fetish for say balloon animals and now they all of a sudden want to marry the clown at the fair. Lol. And when they get denied at this point its upsetting to feel that way and then feel like its out or their grasp. So they react a bit over the top.
@bamesjond0069
Hey, so I have a different take on that - some women and men that I know are very competitive and love accepting challenges. Also, there will always be people who believe that they are irresistible and take personal offense to rejection, or see "no" as a challenge to overcome. Sadly women expect men to respect no, but it is often still a double standard. Women I know don't want to "secretly be traditional", but I am sure that some of them see themselves as superior to women without education or financial success (like your girlfriend) and expect that you would "secretly lust after them", rather than go after what they see as a childish, unaccomplished girl. None of this is nice and I don't condone it, but people are snobby. So they make the same mistake you do when you encounter them - you assume they think one way and they think you aren't being serious about your preferences.
I'm sure that not all professional women over 30 have that reaction to you, but some might, depending on their level of sexual competitiveness. I've still seen it with men too - they will go after women who don't show any interest, just to "see if they can get them". It's not uncommon. It's sort of like "negging" is intended to get potential partners interested in those that insult them, simply because the negger gives off an air of "hard to get". It's a challenge for some.
But no. We don't all want to "secretly be traditional". I used to be a bit like this in my mid 20s and I feel bad for having acted like that. I was just hyper competitive and didn't think much about the consequences. Thankfully, I grew up and out of it.
@Medicalbug well i mean just also a lot of women do actually do this. Im basing my assumptions here on actions and not words. For example many women go and get a degree and start a job some even get a masters or more and then bam have a baby and then decide actually no they dont want to work and just stay home. Two women i specifically know both did this. Most adamant independent career women you ever met... both are now homemakers one with 2 and one with 3 kids with no intention of going back to work. Also like my girlfriend she was going to college and getting a certification so she could start working a specialty and she thought thats what she wanted and then like a month after dating she was like "wtf was i thinking this sounds terrible" quit school quit the certifications and that was that. I asked if we didn't work out would she regret it? She said hell no i didn't know any men wanted homemakers this is what i want now. I know other women who dropped it all once they found the right man. So thats why i say i dont believe most of these women want it. Certainly not all but i think a great many do although none run around saying it.
@bamesjond0069
Hi!
I do believe your circles are very different from mine. Contrary to your experience, I actually know a few male homemakers. Lol. My ex's father is, for example. I only know one woman who stopped working and decided to become a housewife, but this was decided because she had a special needs child that required full time care. It was a sacrifice based on logical decision making - her husband is a programmer and is paid very well. She is now getting certification in working with special needs children to not only augment her home situation, but also continue in this field and apply her experiences to the workplace once her child is independent.
Everyone else just takes leave and then returns to work.
Again, we seem to be from very different worlds and you cannot extrapolate your experiences to describe an entire population, especially not today, when more and more phenotypes are breaking the "traditional" mold.
Environment plays a huge role in these cases - yours seems to favor women who are more domestic, whereas mine is full of women who balance child rearing with high profile jobs and sometimes don't even have children. I also know plenty of IVF candidates and egg freezers who plan to use surrogates. We are from different worlds.
@Medicalbug Why would any man choose a late 30s to 40 year old over a mid 20s or even early 20s woman. Thats what you haven't considered. you're relying on men your age being practically shamed into liking you.
@Medicalbug are you from a place like san fran or nyc? I live just outside a small city in a bumfuck sort of state. Im from a place like that though. That being said there's tons of working women here just i wouldn't say its what women here aspire to more just for poor people and liberals.
Asker Thats how i feel too in my opinion only very wimpy men with no backbone would do such a thing.
Asker id even go as far to say its morally wrong. Where @Medicalbug felt like not earning her way financially was exploiting the man, in my mind i feel like a woman who works and doesn't do the traditional duties is not earning her way and is just the same as a gold digger basically. But if other men accept that thats on them.
I mean you would be impregnating a virgin woman (as far as pregnancy goes) who could've very easily already been a grandma
@bamesjond0069 Of course its morally wrong. What kind of person would be able to do that? Add on top of it the risk for mental illness and other birth defects. Not too many pro athletes for example were born to women in their 40s... theyre not excellent babies.
Regardless of what you prefer, us 30+ girls attract men all the time. Shamed. lol. That's a new one.
Imagine if men were all as you described, driving around trying to pick up girls half their age (preferably in a new sports car). What a mid-life crisis cliche. When I was in college, this was actually a joke. Why would a 21 year old girl want some middle aged guy popping Viagra? For money? Are you even serious.
@Medicalbug Because the other options are worse
@bamesjond0069 I am from a place like that, yes. Middle class, more apolitical than anything. Critique of politics was a big thing in my home - we aren't affiliated with anything. I would say most of the people we associate with are either politically neutral or mildly liberal. We don't have conservative friends. I've met them, but they don't have lot in common with me, so we never got close.
@bamesjond0069 "i feel like a woman who works and doesn't do the traditional duties is not earning her way and is just the same as a gold digger"
See I'm not like this. I have no issues with your lifestyle, if you respect the right of others to live theirs. Statements like these are the kind I see from 16 year old trolls angry that the pretty girls don't like them. I rather liked talking to you, so this is disappointing. Why do you care what we do? You have your girlfriend and dream set up, so why does my way of life offend you?
I am more than happy to exchange ideas and thoughts, but this is the kind of thing that shuts down meaningful conversation.
Sure. Anyway. I'm sorry if you don't have any luck with women. I just wanted to let you know that it's not as bad as you might think.
@Medicalbug i dont care what you do. Thats my honest opinion and how i view womens value in dating. It wasn't about you. Id personally be offended at a woman who both wanted to be with me and wanted to work, i view that as disrespectful. This is because its a mans job to financially provide. If she insists on working then 1. Am i not providing suitably? 2. Thats 40 hours she's devoting to basically what i view as a hobby. Very selfish. What if i wanted to play video games 40 hours a week? Thats not right. If other men accept you and like that good for them. I personally can't understand it at all. in my opinion only a poor man or materialistic man or a wimpy man would accept that, i honestly cannot think of any other possible option that logically makes sense to me. I think its not a womans place in the kitchen but it sure is a wifes place. Working women i view like prostitutes because they waste their precious and valuable fertility and virtuous sexuality in exchange for money. Again i dont care what you do im just telling you how i see it. I see it as wasting the one unique thing women have, otherwise they are basically just men.
But i figured you were from a place like i said. You might not see it or feel it but you live a very liberal lifestyle even while you may not be politically involved or supportive of the democrat party. Im extremely conservative if you couldnt guess. To me i think it really is about politics and ideology. And a lot to do with where you view men and women as basically the same where i view them as drastically different, thats the point at which we diverge. I agree if women and men are basically the same many of your views make sense. I just dont agree with your basic principle so thats why i think none of your views make sense.
@bamesjond0069 Yup I'm not conservative. Hasn't our whole discussion has been based upon that premise? I am “liberal” relative to you, but if you are implying that I would be like you if I lived where you do, you’d be mistaken. Am I biased? Everyone is. I try to check my brainwashing and live as my authentic self. In a conservative world, I would just have a much harder life and struggle with identity issues, probably leaving and moving somewhere far away.
I understand that you feel as though you are being marginalized and phased out. In truth, however, you are still free to do as you please. You have a loving girlfriend and I’m sure you are not solely surrounded by liberals like me. I understand it is hard to clash with snobs and elitists, or people who see you as a threat, but ultimately, you are going to be able to thrive as you want.
The issue is this – when you say “all women should”, you might feel like you are just asserting your own choices, but you actually remind some of us of recent history we’d prefer not to repeat. The more you do it, the more antagonistic everyone gets. You are not doing yourself any favors by painting yourself as a boogeyman threatening to return us all to the past. I understand you have problematic friends, but I would suggest not getting too involved and stepping back. "You need to be me" is never good advice.
Change is painful and humanity has experienced a lot of it recently. I’m not a social Darwinist, so I prefer tolerance and patience over bullying and shaming. I’d rather we come together and understand the human animal instead of being fanatical and emotional about it. There is no REAL woman or man. Everyone is what they are – we are just experiencing a lot more diversity and freedom of action and we are going to have to accept many different ways of life. Neither one of us is “right”, as that is not how evolution works. Even if something was right at some point, it can become wrong in the next.
@Medicalbug "but if you are implying that I would be like you if I lived where you do, you’d be mistaken" logically there is a good chance you would be. And vice versa in general although I did grow up in a liberal area and tbh all it did was make me think how wrong it was. But in general most people in liberal areas are liberal and conservatives in conservative while also most people dont move away from home so obviously a great many people simply stick with how they were raised.
"I understand that you feel as though you are being marginalized and phased out." Not sure where you get this. My problem is morons. For example if a man was highly traditional like me goes to church, wears a suit and dresses clean cut, spends time at the local conservative get together yet constantly complained he couldn't find a woke feminist girlfriend... might you not say "hey buddy but you're really doing something wrong here that makes no sense" lol thats basically my problem. Its morons.
@bamesjond0069 It was just a question. Again, I understand your frustration with people who try to convince you to be like them or those that seem like contradictions. You might find a lot of contrary people nowadays, since they are being exposed to new things and might be adapting differently to you. For some it’s a struggle – and a reason I am pretty understanding. I don’t see any bad apples, I see people trying to cope in a very turbulent world.
So if you do look at the statistics, you will also note that the number of women starting to engage in these behaviors (like investment) is increasing every year, and it isn’t a small group of exceptions either. Social security has been important to women for many reasons that have nothing to do with being dependents, such as being subject to lower wages, more breaks in employment and longer lifespans. But. It’s silly to use historical data, because we are literally caught in the middle of major disruptions. Decades mean nothing in the course of evolution and things are changing as we speak. Remember, a lot of these attitudes and freedoms are relatively new, so we won’t have a clear picture of what women will become right away, we can only see trends. A lot of the programming, both the social and genetic by products of past selection, are still abound in a sizeable number of the population. But, as an increasing number of phenotypes survive in the widespread “liberal” climate, the selection pressure will also change and “women” and “men” will take on new dimensions. Women as a “whole” right now are a mixed bag of everything, nothing like you describe, as are men. It’s a gradient and it will shift.
These blanket statements about women! Lol. I prefer men who have a similar income range to my own, so that there are no arguments or insecurities (in either of us) about money. I do not like the idea of a partner who is far more wealthy than I am, nor do I fancy a man who is dependent on me. The latter is not because I would not support a man, it is because I fear feelings of insecurity and resentment arising. It is similar with a wealthy man - I could see myself feeling inferior at times and it might always be a wedge between us.
I have seen that attitude a lot in dating. I make a very high earning through investment only income aka i dont work and I've found many women are on one hand highly attracted to me and so amazing at my success yet are scared or reluctant to be serious with me because it threatens their independence and career. Its fine because i feel the same way so its no big deal but i find it funny how narrow some of you women make your dating pool yet expect to find an eligible or gasp numerous eligible men to date. He can't earn less nor can he earn more... how many men do you think earn the same amount as you? If you feel inferior when faced with a higher earning male that says more about your personality than your income does. Part of the reason if a girl is concerned about my success in a negative way im not interested in someone who is afraid of a positive thing i bring to the table. That just seems unhealthy to me. Its like some man saying oh i like you but i find you too attractive, too sweet to me, too smart, too good of a cook etc... if a man truly thinks these things is a reason to not date you... isn't that a big red flag he has low self esteem or some kind of issues going on? Just something to think about.
@bamesjond0069 Do you honestly think I meet a man I find attractive and have this instant inner dialogue where a nagging voice warns HE MAKES TOO MUCH MONEY! ABORT!
Obviously I am only speculating on the reasons why I have never dated too far out of my own economical circles. Another factor is clearly exposure - most of the people I meet and get to know well enough to date are friends of friends, work colleagues, people frequenting similar establishments etc. It isn't a big surprise that most of the men I end up dating are close to my own career and income level. In fact, in order to click properly, having lots in common actually does bond people more than you might think. I can only use my friendships to illustrate. It is difficult to keep pace with wealthy friends on a super exclusive level, since you either a) rely on their charity or b) can't partake in a lot of what they do because you are financially unable to pay. In the end, your relationship often ends up more superficial and less intense than with a friend who matches you in most of what you do.
None of this has to do with self esteem. Lol. I don't like to financially exploit people, it makes me feel uncomfortable, like I owe them something. I feel guilty, like I am failing them as a friend. The inferior feeling springs from that feeling of failure. Is it irrational? Perhaps! But -finances are quite important - they do result in more breakups and fights than you might imagine.
Is it a deal breaker? No, I imagine if I met someone I really liked, I would try to make it work. Is it likely to happen? No. People just end up with people who are more like them, most of the time. It doesn't say anything about people other than opposites don't always attract.
Just something to think about.
"rely on their charity" "I don't like to financially exploit people, it makes me feel uncomfortable..." i think this misses the point. Women are valuable in their own ways men in their ways and thus a man who wants to spend money on you typically finds your feminine ways valuable. Its just not quite as obvious and tangible as money is. When you say exploit with such a negative connotation i take it to mean he is paying for nothing which from my perspective seems obvious thats not whats happening unless you have nothing to offer? You said "owe them something" but I've never once heard factually any girl say a man took her out and then claimed she owed him sex. I've specifically asked many women this and all say its never happened but they have heard of it happening. So seems a lot like an old wives tale sort of thing. Yeah its a joke and everyones heard it but does it happen often? Im guessing not very much... not to be confused with when a man explicitly buys something and has some sort of sugar baby relationship, im not talking about that. Or I've taken people on vacation and they ran off and i didn't see them the whole time like thats kinda rude i brought them as a guest specifically to go do things with not to just give them a vacation as a gift. So yeah they owed me what just coming as my friend. I hardly think thats a big deal. Just my perspective.
@bamesjond0069 So for part one:
We really travel in very different circles. I don't know anyone who has or is planning on having six or more children, so we are indeed comparing apples to oranges. The difference between you and I is the fact that I do not look down on people who see a large family as an aspiration. You seem to have a very biased regard for people who choose against it. In my world, it is rare to have more than three children, and we aren't homesteaders,. You imply it is negative to be this way - it is not. It's just different people with different choices and different lifestyles. My sister has two children, and they enjoy communal contact with the extended family - everyone is very invested in them and their development. Both my sister and partner are highly educated professionals in their 30s who both have a lot of life experience and financial security to share with their children. They are excellent role models and enjoy traveling with their children and providing them with love from all directions. We come from such a background ourselves and divorce is rare in our family. We are very family oriented, just in a different way than you are. The strength we have is not in numbers but in the quality of love and support we provide each other.
You sound so condescending when you speak of the men I associate with. None of them are "whipped" or lacking in power. We are talking about business owners, executives, scientists (etc. the list is long) with successful careers and balanced lives, not immature man-children still clinging to their mother's apron strings. These are men who appreciate a partner who can engage them on a similar level and build a life with them. They are much like the women they seek - we have also lived and explored life, we are not fresh from the parental home with zero clue about adulting. We all have something to share with our children and choose to have them when our maturity level is at the right point.
I dont look down on them, i just dont see how one could be considered very family oriented and just kind of go with the flow sure we can have one kid eventually see what happens. Compared to my example i dont see how anyone could possibly consider that family oriented. I didn't say its not wrong to not be, but i mean a woman who aspires to homeschool 4 kids id call much more family oriented than a working woman who wants one in her 30s or 40s secondary to her career and plans to put the kid in daycare. Whether you know people like that or not doesn't seem relevant other than maybe you didn't know people can be that into their families but now that you know i think it could be said objectively that they are indeed more family oriented.
@bamesjond0069 Hmmm. Missing the point. Let me expand on that - perhaps I am not valuable in the way you would like women to be valuable, because I don't fit into your world view at all? My "feminine ways"? I think if anything, we can conclude that my values and "ways" do not even remotely fit into your paradigm and neither do those of other women I know.
Perhaps we just have different attitudes about money. I was taught to work hard and earn my keep - I suppose you can earn your keep with your presence if you are an escort? Would I say no if a wealthy friend begged me to come along on a trip? There are many grey zones. I make exceptions from time to time, as long as I am comfortable with it, but I cannot see myself feeling at ease if I were always accepting someone's charity, just so they can hang out with me. I'd wonder what kind of role I really have in their lives - are they just lonely (and I'm exploiting them) or does this make them feel something (like control etc.). It's just a thought we can play with for the next question:
If the roles were reversed and you suddenly lost your wealth and your girlfriend now made all the money - would you be comfortable in letting her spend it all on you?
If yes, then we are just different with money. Apples and oranges again. Interested to hear what you would feel.
"I was taught to work hard and earn my keep - I suppose you can earn your keep with your presence if you are an escort?" Im operating under the assumption that men and women are drastically different. I was raised a man better make 6 figures minimum or he's nothing. No other rules about hard work apply. Simply earn that value. But women are totally different. This is why they are so easily objectified. But its a good mans job to see a womans differences as uniquely valuable more like a priceless work of art vs a silver coin. A womans value is femininity, motherhood and dutiful wife. No price tag can be put on a good woman who fulfills these roles. A bad woman can have a pricetag because the unique value is not present in her. Ie a woman who is not a good mother not very feminine not the dutiful wife of the house is as valuable like a man is, which is basically his net worth or income. This is how my family was and not any or much different than many of the people we associated with. None of my friends moms worked nor did my own. Except one but everyone laughed at their modern ideals. She seemed to wear the pants. None of the men liked the man none of the women liked the woman. Just us kids got along as young kids. As we got older i didn't like him either. Lol.
@bamesjond0069 You can be family oriented and not have 6 children, especially if you expect the brunt of the child rearing is to be left to the women. Contrary to what this suggests, women are not a homogenous group who are all destined and programmed to want to stay home with lots of children. Do some want this? Yes! Was it a selection criteria in the past - for sure, but those stringent conditions no longer unilaterally apply, especially in an age of women's liberation, overpopulation and stagnating wages. In the past, genetic potential in women may have been less likely to emerge in varying tangents, but today, women can be what they want and many are born and thrive who may have been selected against in the past. These women are a vastly differentiated population, where the definition of "family oriented" bears many variations. I cannot, for example, imagine myself doing nothing but rearing children. At all. I often hear fellow professional women describing too much time at home with children (especially those who took extended maternity leave) as draining and mind numbing, if they did not receive much help from their partner or social circle. Then there are women that don't want any children at all (I am kind of on this tangent because I am very easily distracted and absorbed in my work/hobbies). There are so many scenarios of how different women feel about raising children.
In my family child rearing tends to be a group effort where the extended family often jumps in and helps relatives with small kids so that they can still realize themselves professionally and personally. We are very family minded - even I am extremely attentive to the needs of my sister's children. But we have different talents than what you describe and construct our family planning accordingly, to accommodate our personal preferences and infrastructure.
I would say the women you are describing are more "domestically oriented" than the people I know.
@bamesjond0069 You really did grow up in an utterly different environment! I was never taught that women are drastically different from men, it was never really discussed at all. My parents had this attitude of "let the kids be themselves and develop into what they want to be" - well, except we were given very firm values. Hard work, success in whatever we chose to do - these things were highly valued in my family. Everyone was successful in their own way, from my aunts to my uncles and cousins. I don't think that anyone would have looked down on me, had I wanted to be the type of woman you describe, as long as I put in the work like your girlfriend does.
I think this is the big disconnect - I can't be like your girlfriend or excel at what she does, as it is not in my nature, so I would feel awkward if my partner was paying for everything and I was... well, you know, me. Not your girlfriend or feminine or traditional. In your situation she is "pulling her weight" and "earning her keep", as homemaking and planning to care for a huge family is no small undertaking. She can't do that if she works. She needs your financial support.
But my talents would go to waste and I would feel bad, because I wasn't bringing anything to the table if I lived as my authentic self.
So I think that is the crux of the problem. What is perfectly honorable in her case would seem morally questionable in mine. I would keep asking myself if I wasn't exploiting my partner and living off their laurels. To illustrate - if I met a much wealthier guy, I would be okay with helping him run the business in a top level role (thereby earning my keep), even if it wasn't outright my business. It's not born out of a sense of propriety. But if my role contributed nothing to his income, I would feel very weird about spending it. To be honest though, I don't think this will ever happen. I really don't associate romantically with ultra rich men, nor do I try to attract them.
Also on another note - my level of maturity did not change with men, but rather the experiences I had and the mistakes I made. I even dumped a somewhat older guy when I was about 21 because he was too serious for me (he was only 27) and I was much too volatile to be a good partner. I felt he stifled me. Lol.
@Medicalbug i get your reasonings. This is something I've heard people say so i guess the old wisdom and personally I've seen it play out a few times... a woman doesn't do what she's supposed to do until she has a man to do it for. Meaning women may go off and focus on a career or travel or partying and only once a man sweeps her off her feet will she be ready to throw it all away to be a homemaker. But its swept off her feet not just here's a guy who is nice that i like to have sex with. Its more than that.
@bamesjond0069 Your girlfriend may be like that. Some women might agree. But it's not true for everyone by far. I do what I am supposed to do for myself and my friends and family. I try to be an honorable person, whom they can depend and rely on. But I am in my 30s and wasn't like this when I was young. I was wild and impulsive and probably caused my family some heartaches along the way, especially when I went to live thousands of miles away in different countries or continents.
I had to get it out of my system, and also to learn what I wanted in life. It had nothing to do with men at all.
I don't mean to offend you (I do like talking to you), but I wonder sometimes if you just wished men played such an integral, absolute role in all women's lives. Are you afraid that you are dispensable? Some men like to create an ideological "natural order" that forcefully inserts them into the lives of women. You really don't have any reason to feel insecure - you have the perfect girlfriend, so you don't need to try to convert anyone else. Does it bother you that there are women more like me out there?
It doesn't bother me that you and your girlfriend live "traditionally", but sometimes I am a bit concerned by your insistence that most women are really like that. I told you we are prickly when it comes to people trying to take away our freedom. Lol. I don't want to go back in time.
"I wonder sometimes if you just wished men played such an integral, absolute role in all women's lives." I mean i would prefer if things were more like the past. I mean even most of the women i know admit they wish women never got the vote and things would be way better for everyone.
"Are you afraid that you are dispensable?" How so? Im a top 1% earner for my age and many say quite attractive. I feel like everyone is always needing me.
"Some men like to create an ideological "natural order" that forcefully inserts them into the lives of women." Im not exactly sure what that means.
"You really don't have any reason to feel insecure - you have the perfect girlfriend, so you don't need to try to convert anyone else. Does it bother you that there are women more like me out there?" It does in as much as other people trying to involve me in their problems. Ie a career woman pestering me to try a REAL woman bothers me. Or a male friend who follows modern dating standards with no luck... not surprising at all to me. Damn straight i let them have it and it bothers me how they are. If they want to date a man like me or want to not keep having moronic dating issues then yes they should stop being how they are. Or also i can't stand a woman talking about how independent she is only to turn around and ask for help with some basic shit like to help her with something with her car or my input with her work or something she should clearly be able to do on her own if she indeed was independent. My girlfriend gets harassed a lot about it as well and is very shy and not able to comfortably handle a 45 year old career woman verbally sparring with her about this stuff... not yet anyways. So its kind of an ongoing annoyance tbh. I feel like i hear about independent women nonstop like most have a constant desire to talk about it all the time. Where more traditional women just keep quiet and dont feel the need to parade it around everywhere.
@bamesjond0069 I will clarify:
"Some men like to create an ideological "natural order" that forcefully inserts them into the lives of women".
Men who have difficulties with dating sometimes prefer a societal construct where everyone thinks every woman "needs a man" and then enforces the inclusion of men in women's sexual/romantic lives. This way no man would live a sexless life, because it would be accepted as "just the way things naturally are" if women were forced to date, marry or sleep with them.
I mean I'm sorry if people aren't having sex, but raping and enslaving other human beings isn't the answer.
@Medicalbug lol well if you read my post on this topic you would know I am not for that at all. I am getting lots of benefits to how things are currently.
Regarding "where everyone thinks every woman "needs a man"" i do think women as a whole are quite helpless. For example I don't know the exact number off hand but men pay the majority of taxes and women use the majority of government programs. Most women are clearly dependents. Not all not all not all. But most. Also most women do not invest money. Statistically women put up a tiny proportion of the amount men do. You will see some men put away like 20% of their income where the number for women is only like 2%. How do they expect to retire? Social security. SMH. Ofc not all not all not all. But women as a whole just do not want to be independent. Yet so many want to pretend to be independent. It makes no sense. Especially all these pseudo sex workers. "Im independent and dont need no man"..."except a sugar daddy". Lmao.
I think you probably agree with some of what I am saying and think well those are just some bad apples but as a man I can tell you im covering the vast majority of women fall into these and similar categories. So props to you for being actually independent but do realize you're the exception.
@bamesjond0069
You say this then go on to tell me you managed to resist your liberal roots. It’s remarkable how quickly you dismiss my ability to accomplish the same in the reverse situation, even though it would be practically critical to my survival. Lol. You are objectifying me. Should I objectify you as well? Is that preferable to my understanding? Just slap a label on you and off with you? Let’s try to be rational.
First of all, it is one thing to be raised a certain way and quite another to completely deny who you are and cast aside your entire personality. If I were a man in your world, it would be easier to conform to your standards, because they would benefit my inherent personality (to work and not be a stay at home parent). I would be encouraged to be successful and develop my talents outside the home, according to my natural inclinations. As a woman, I would be at odds with everything and suffer serious identity conflicts, leading to psychological issues or extreme rebellion. Men you permit to become a myriad of things, from investors to painters, from lawyers to explorers – a man is a plethora of possibilities. But women? You want an entire group of diverse people to become one thing.
If you logically consider this, you will see how the odds for that happening can only be raised if you use physical force, high levels of social pressure and selection and strip away any chance at opportunity. Over time, you will get a more complacent female population. You’d cull people like me and toss us in a workhouse or sanitarium or leave us on the streets. While you’d still be stuck with women like us popping up, you’d have the perfect environment to shape most of them and control the rest.
But this isn’t 1865. All women in the western world are being exposed to “the other way of living”. It isn’t enough to raise us as conservatives. We have ways to reject it. And we will.
I would assume that men who want a relationship will start focusing on being better people, after all that is more difficult than making 6figures.
Better people, does that mean simping?
Not that means honesty, integrity, communication skills, work ethic, emotional maturity, compassion, empathy, generosity etc
Key words were honesty and generosity there. You want men to get snipped and donate all their money to you
Fuck that, no I don’t. I want men to be good people, honestly is a bear minimum, and there are ways to be generous that doesn’t include money buddy.. I make my own money thank you very much I didn’t need anyone else’s. But like I said.. it’s easier to make 6figures than it is to be a good person. Money isn’t a good enough replacement for being a good person.
The fact is you want money more than a relationship
And studies show women are attracted most to dark triad personalities. The dishonest, lying, and abusive type
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think you know what I want more than I do?
The fact is that I am married and I got married because my husband because he has those qualities, even though he didn’t have a job at the time. The fact is that I was the sole provider for my family for the first 2 years of my marriage while he was in school.
So was Ted Bundy's wife. She was also older than him. Point? Your husband was doing something you wish you wouldve done + looked distinguished + emotionally intelligent enough to seduce you. Does any of that change the fact you ultimately want his money and his humiliation
Look up "praying mantis female vs male" because thats exactly how female humans treat males. They get what they want and then kill
If I wanted his money, I’d be on his checking account wouldn’t I? If I wanted to humiliate him I wouldn’t support and encourage him would I? if I didn’t respect him I wouldn’t submit to him now would I?
Well you dont understand yourself. Thats fine, most people dont understand themselves. The fact is the fact though, no God created this world, no one designed you. You're a quirk of nature. And female nature is to kill and destroy
If that were true don’t you think the human race would have died you thousands of years ago… you know since they give birth and nurture their children.
I understand myself very well thank you very much… however you are delusional if you think you understand a stranger on the internet better than they know themselves.
Human races have died out plenty of times before where females had influence. Why do you think from Peru to China every extant country kept women either at home or away from government matters
Why do you think women world wide celebrate the legalization of abortion in a country theyve never been in (brazil)? Their nature is the same as the mantis
So thats why you and all your friends love (d) the bad boys. They're a mirror of you
Sure does sound like you hate women… why not just date men if you have females so much?
If I hated women Id try to ruin their lives. Does it look like Im ruining anyones life
Well from your behavior and language so far it would appear that you are experiencing intense or passionate dislike towards women, which is the literal definition of hate.
Intentionally ruining someone’s life would be malicious.
Notice all the guys who liked your comment are losers😂
If you hated someone and werent malicious, youd just be a pussy
Notice all the men who liked my comment are men.. not that you would be able to relate.
I've seen them around. Theyre cucks.
Hate to use an incel word but its true.
I understand where you’re coming from, I really do. It’s always easier to blame someone else for your problems than it is to take accountability for your own shortcomings.
I imagine you laughing like a witch every time you get to say shortcomings
Well you have to enjoy life when you can.
witch
If by witch you mean an intelligent woman that threaten people with a lesser intellect I appreciate the compliment 😌
@msc545 "I make my own money"
No real man wants a woman who stresses more over their job than they put energy into their child. you're a child abuser
My child and my husband are my first priority. I honor and respect my husband because he has earned that respect… which is more than I can say for you.
Why is your kid in daycare then? isn't daycare for children without invested mothers?
My son is in advanced kindergarten but thanks for you concern. If I wasn’t invested in the welfare of my family I wouldn’t be working my ass off to support and nurture them would I?
What a bitchy way to excuse yourself of the responsibility of motherhood
You are totally worthless.
You don’t have kids do you?
Worthless
Oh so being a productive member of society, loving, nurturing and supporting my family makes me worthless? You may want to take a moment to reeducate yourself on what that word actually means.
Opinion
15Opinion
I don’t think it’s that simple down to finances and I wonder where you get that narrative in terms of stats. There are differences between men and women, hell even my last 3 girlfriends had advanced degrees and high paying jobs but I wasn’t intimidated because I had plenty of things that bring to the table. Just like you and all my fellow kings.
Look my fellow brothers in arm aka men, you got a lot of shit to offer. It’s about finding a woman who appreciates that just like she appreciates you, none of this pointing fingers and hiding your frustrations behind bullshit. Real men fucking roll their sleeves up and get shit done, even when life throw shit at them, they find a way to survive and accomplish things. If a woman doesn’t value you then fine, just walk away and find another one but don’t shitting on all women because then you’re being a big sore loser. Winners focus on winning, be a winner kings
Someone told me that i think they got it from a news article which quoted actual stats
Can you supply the source to this article?
you're right on. But we'll see what happens
This is by far the best response on here
🙏 thanks @Subarugirl
Lmao what a load of bollox.
get out of your mums basement and visit a low end or normal part of a city, there is not of that wank.
a chunk of people start dating at school or Uni and marry, at that age no one really knows future incomes.
Also dynamics shift in relationships, at one point the guy earns more, supports her or him while at college, Uni, then they earn more, then it swaps around.
also considering dating starts at about 12 years old, this is not what you think about 😂😂😂
it’s always blue anons that come across as fuckwits.
Icing on the cake… are you also a Spam?
Guys who believe this premise have issues.
They have no respect for women yet wonder why women don't respect them.
All they want to do is use women, so they project their own attitudes on all women.
They have shallow values. They think competition is the path to happiness, and that money, power and appearances are all there is. Therefore, they will never have enough.
They think being a good person is weakness.
They deny the existence of things like love, honor, ethics, tenderness, devotion, or any feelings that do not center around greed.
Their standards are out of their league but they hypocritically criticize women for having standards.
They think it's "simping" to like women who don't exceed industry standards. They think that average pretty girls are "low value".
They are unhappy but it never occurs to them to fix themselves. They believe all their problems are external.
We already know what happens the top 5% or so of men who meet that Get pretty much all the women because they're getting all of them why get married And have the risk of 50% of your stuff being stolen. So just date them temporarily use them for sex then when you get bored move down to a younger model eventually the women get into their thirties no one wants them and they go insane as you can see oldee women.
It’s called a prenup if you’re that worried about it
Prenup don't do anything. All the woman has to do is not want to follow it. By law you're not allowed to sign away Protection under the law with a contract. therefore the contract is voided it has been brought up in court many times they're uninforcible
Prenuptial agreements, if drawn up and executed correctly, are legally binding and are usually upheld in court. The vast majority of prenups are upheld in court.
www.legalzoom.com/.../prenuptial-agreements-not-just-for-the-wealthy
@Subarugirl Who asked about prenups? The fact is, social humiliation of a woman's spouse by the woman herself is just as common if not more common than divorce
Oh nvm I got mixed up on who you were replying to.
As you can see the reasons are basically it's unfair. You cannot make a print I'm saying you get none of my stuff it will be considered unfair and thrown out or you can say you were distressed to sign it and many case just throw it out because you cannot sign away your rights. If the woman chooses to fight it it is not uphold the fact that some women don't fight it does not mean this this is not the case
www.forbes.com/.../
Unless you have evidence to back up those claims, they are just your opinions.
I literally posted a link to Forbes read the whole post
Oh I saw, I saw an article with no sources written by a financial advisor, who emphasized the importance of having prenup written up the right way.
In summary, in order for a prenup to be effective, both parties must have their own separate attorney. Plus, the prenup must be:
Written. Oral prenups are not valid.
Executed voluntarily and without coercion.
A prenup that’s signed the day before the wedding can be invalidated.
Executed only after full disclosure. If you hide assets and/or liabilities, you run the risk of invalidating the prenup.
Conscionable. A prenup cannot be unconscionable. In other words, the prenup could be invalidated if the agreement is too lopsided, with one party awarded almost everything and the other receiving only a pittance.
Executed by both parties, preferably in front of witnesses (or a notary). Some attorneys even recommend having a judge witness the signing to make sure that neither party was coerced into signing.
Written in a recordable format, such as a real estate deed
A financial adviser versus a person trying to sell you the document I trust the person who manages the money and makes more not the person selling you a document
No risk and just not getting married why take the risk when it's not needed this is just the fault of the divorce laws and women being very very greedy look at how many of the richest women of the world are because of divorce what a joke system
Well if it’s that big of a deal then just don’t get married…
Also a little more about the author who wrote what you sent me.
“ Jeff is the author of the new book, Divorce: Think Financially, Not Emotionally – What Women Need To Know About Securing Their Financial Future Before, During, And After Divorce, which provides women going through the crisis of divorce with the tools they need to secure their financial future. He is donating 50% of all book profits to Bedrock Divorce Fund for Abused Women, Inc.”
Yep that's what I'm saying just fuck a lot of young 20 year olds using for sex what a great life so easy as well if you just make in the 6 figures and It's not fat
Oh so you just want to use people… you sound like a great person with integrity.
They use me for the lifestyle they can't get without me so I use them for their body what's so wrong with that this is the fucked up world we live in everyone uses everyone
And since when to two wrongs make a right? Like I said.. it’s easier to make money than it is to be a good person. At the end of the day you still have to look at yourself in the mirror.
If that was true everyone will be rich you're Living in a delusion
I’m not the one telling people what they are think and talking about how I’m just going to use people since it takes to much work to earn what I want. See this is where integrity comes into play…
I'm just telling how it is This is the real world people just don't like the real world they want to live in a fantasy dream
No you’re telling it how you think it is… just because you believe something doesn’t make it true. You’re over here complaining about women having standards. If you want things to be like they were in the 1950s, you can’t just hold other to that standard and not yourself.
Literally all the data proves it look at the data from dating apps
Simple women will either have to settle or be alone men win in the end regardless and I’m assuming you’re talking about American women we as men don’t have to change or get our act together as some would say just because she wants a guy who makes more than her and won't settle doesn’t change the fact that there are plenty of women in the world who will appreciate that 250k and a man who makes that much I always recommend that American men date foreign women because they appreciate, cherish and value their men a lot more women outnumber men if a woman doesn’t like you or want you then move on I promise you’ll find a girl who is much better than her and will see you as Superman just the way you are we don’t have to eat burgers and hotdogs all the time guys go get some exotic cuisine it’ll cost less and taste much better
Interesting pov. I definitely agree. Overall, there are far more women in the world who would want to date a western man than there are western men. So
None of the above.
I don't believe it's 90%, but let's just pretend that it is.
Some women make nothing.
Some make minimum wage
Some make 25K
Some make 50K
etc
It's an entire spectrum of pay for women. So even if we pretend it's true about 90%, it still means that the large majority can still date.
People tend to date similar people anyway. If we pretend that 90% is true, it doesn't really limit it nearly as much as it may seem at first.
u something tells me your future will be pretty much like your present...
posting BS about women as a blue anon because well... got nothing better to do, or to offer
It'll continue like it is now till women realize they're creating their own problems. I just wish more guy would find there balls and not simp like they do. Let these women fight over the top guys, get knocked up, and tossed to the side. And then live a life unfulfilled.
Things would go so much better for men if they acted like women and not settle.
I dont settle. The girls who are readily receptive of me without me simping aren't my type so I dont bother dating.
I went on a dating app and got 10 likes in a couple days. only 1 of them was my type, the others hurt my self esteem a bit. But she was cute and smart... witty in her bio.. and a masters student but she didn't reply. Probably had like 100 likes herself
If the woman is submissive and early 20s, a real man can still make a good partner out of her, even if she’s made mistakes and fucked around. If she continues that pattern into her mid 20s then it’s over in my opinion, she’s trashed herself. There are exceptions but in general this is what I see playing out. Ofc I guess it depends how young they start too... some girls start sleeping around when their 13 so by their late teens it’s all ogre...
@Shamalien I think we tend to agree. I always say after25 the good womrn are taken. You're really gambling after that. Because she's single at that point there's a reason for it.
If a woman has indulged bad habits like sleeping around up till 25 then yes... but some women are just massive nerds with tons of hobbies or were raised christian or for whatever reason have been focused on things other than boys. These women are still flowers waiting to bud... there’s nothing wrong with these ones. Thing is, it will be difficult to get intimate with them. It will take a lot of patience but I believe the reward will be worth
The thing is that as a man, no matter how much you make, no matter how tall you are, and no matter how good-looking you are, there will always be a wealthier, taller, better-looking guy that your SO will meet, and that will be it for you. Hypergamy is alive and well, and it is NOT your friend. For most men, women are a very temporary convenience at best. Plan for unwanted change, and a lot of it.
That's nothing new. One could even call it "natural" selection. But it doesn't matter anyway, feminism and simp culture has killed dating in 21st century Western society. Dating is dead.
The shitty men will either step up or fall behind ig🤷🏾♀️
Whatre you even talking about i see many relationships where the girl is way more attractive including mine
You're just guessing. It's not going to happen that way.
It's not 90% but a larger portion of women wouldn't date down financially , and it's been reported widely in the media.
Can u show me your sources for this
Courtney ryan was talking about it
Its a girl she has a dating advice youtube channel
Wow, what kind of fantasy world do you live in?
Those are stats
For a lot of guys not too good
You can also add your opinion below!
