Do you believe in equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?

[PinkMichae]

Personally I believe I'm equality of opportunity because you can't count on everyone working as hard as you to be given the same outcome. I was raised that you get what you work for.

I mean even when you raise your kids they won't have the same outcome in life because of the different choices they will make. One might choose a career that will eventually make them very wealthy and the other might choose another career that makes them happy but won't lead to riches.

Not everyone has the same start in life either. But the opportunity is always there to change your outcome depending on the choices you make and maybe a bit of luck. Also you can be more proud of yourself if you started on the bottom and worked your way to the top.

I believe in equality of outcome.

I believe in equality of opportunity.

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+1 y

Well so far the majority believe in Equality of Opportunity. Thank you for your perspectives and experiences that led you to your opinion.

[The_Other]

We can't have either or, because if we look at it that way, the whole idea falls apart.

Equal opportunity doesn't mean they will always make it especially if what they want/need is limited.
10 people might get the equal opportunity to go interview for a specific job, but if the business needs only like 5 employees, then thats 5 more people who are still jobless. (This just a limited example but hopefully you get the idea), so this system is such that some will win and some will fail no matter what.

When it comes to equality of outcome, it's not sustainable in all cases either.
James is a construction worker.
Ana doesn't work at all, she just sits at home doing nothing.
It makes no sense for someone not doing anything even though they are capable to have the same economic outcome as the person who is working hard to make a living.

Exceptions: Basic necessities, basic human rights.
There are some things in which people should have at least the bare minimum, this ties both in to both categories (Opportunity & Outcome), for example: Education, Healthcare, security, food, housing... If people don't have the bare essentials, then we can't expect them to "pull themselves up by tge bootstraps" when there's no boot to begin with.

[exitseven]

Equality of opportunity. I worked in the public sector and it was more or less equality of outcome. Everybody did a little bit less than the bare minimum and everyone was paid according to how many years on the job. As a result people just did the bare minimum because there was no incentive to do any better.,

[PinkMichae]

Thank you for sharing that. It helps people to understand why equality of outcome doesn't work.

[exitseven]

Thank you for the MHO

[kyleelyn199723]

I agree with you. I was talking to a co worker today actually about how there’s another of worker we have that goes above and beyond of what he is supposed to do. He complains a lot because a lot of people we work with does not do the amount of work he does. And I put it into perspective of 1. He does above and beyond (which I you should do but is not in the job description) 2. You can’t expect everyone to go above and beyond when going above and beyond is not normal. He is a very well respected co worker and I feel like that there’s nothing really bad to say about him is a reflection of his work.

[kyleelyn199723]

Another co worker*

[Rachelspiks]

Equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome is impossible, and whenever it's attempted the end result is that people wind up equally poor and miserable.

[HugoThe2nd]

"Equality of opportunity" is bollocks, is the only issue.
Yes, everyone "can" be a valedictorian in high school and then continue on to earn a PhD and subsequently have a career in science.

But to claim that a daughter of a wealthy, family business owning real estate agent who was homeschooled by a college educated mother since the age of 6 and developed a dedication to excellency because her life revolved around nothing else outside of that has an "equal opportunity" to achieve such career and academic success as kids of working class couples who had to help out their fathers on the field and around the house as soon as they came home from school because their unemployed mothers were taking care of their sick and disabled grandparents, well that's just intellectually dishonest, or "dumb crap" in colloquial terms.

While the rich girl will be taking extra credits, doing work research and internships with mentors with great credentials and then resting at the cozy apartment daddy paid for at the end of the day, the other kids will be half-arsedly studying while simultaneously washing dishes at a local dinner just to be able to afford "some" degree at "some" school.

That's not equality of opportunity, because the starting point for those people is not at all the same.
It's bollocks, a delusion like the "American Dream" that rich people like to parrot in order to feel more like their success was earned.

But the reality is that your success is predetermined by who you are and what parents you have been born to.
If your parents aren't wealthy and educated, well then you are fucked.
Because your "equal opportunity" means you will have to spend approximately 3 times the time and effort to achieve the same level of success as someone who had it better in life.

Is that equal opportunity? Lol no.

[PinkMichae]

No. My brother and I grew up poor. He went on to get good grades and an education to become a registered nurse and makes great money. He's now got a beautiful wife, smart kids, a huge house in the country, cars, a boat, etc...

I unfortunately made poorer choices more interested in have fun then getting sick with a chronic illness at 16 years old. Unable to work eventually because of the pain and fatigue. Therefore I live on a fixed income that barely supports me.

Now does it suck? Sure.

Do I blame him for having success when I couldn't? No

Yes, some people are going to have better advantages or disadvantages because of their parents or bringing up. But others disadvantages are not the fault of those that are advantage. So you do your best to better your life so your kids have more opportunities. And don't forget someone worked their butts off to make sure they and their kids have better opportunities.

If you grow up poor you have the opportunity to change that if you're physically able. It's all about making the right choices.

Also I had cousins that were homeschooled. And being homeschooled they missed out on things us public schoolers had. There's also advantages us poor people have that the rich kids don't. And that's life education. And as far as I'm concerned when you are given so much, it's a disadvantage then when you work for it.

We do our best with the life and opportunities we were given.

[Celtero]

Equality of outcome is always misrepresented in these images, as they suggest we live in a world of infinite resources.

Equality of outcome says the worst among us should wind up the same as the best among us. Some people are objectively better people and work harder and do much better things for the world than others.

[007kingifrit]

but equality of opportunity is equally as evil as its just equality of outcome with extra steps. people pass their outcome onto their kids so its inevitable you can't have equal opportunity without equal outcome

[Celtero]

@007kingifrit Nah, equality of opportunity can be just... Like a person who inherits wealth shouldn't be more likely to get a certain job than someone who is poor. It's a different story if we're talking about a family business or something.

Whereas equality of outcome just neutralizes people's agency in the world.

[007kingifrit]

trick question, they are the same thing because people pass their outcome onto their kids. which then become opportunities. one generation's outcome is the next generation's opportunity. so you can't have one without the other

BUT you can't really ever have either. some people are born stupid, some ugly, some lazy, some mentally or physically deformed. we can't have equal opportunity because some are born with better talents than others. it can't happen.

instead. i offer an alternative... fairness.

fairness is the idea that you get out what you put in. if you are better you get more. if you are lazy or untalented you get less. it doesn't give everyone an equal start or an equal end but it does give everyone what they deserve.

[MCheetah]

Equality of opportunity.

Equality of outcome; Equity, is just straight-up Communism, and only the biggest losers in society would want it, cause they hope to get an upgrade in life from it, while everyone else gets downgraded.

[grega239]

Opportunity.
Which is why affirmative action programs and gender quotas need to be done away with

[007kingifrit]

you don't believe in euqal opportunity. you believe in what's called merit. or fairness

[grega239]

@007kingifrit Same difference.
Equal opportunity to prove ones skill

[007kingifrit]

well you can't have equal opportunity to prove your skill because people are born with natural advantages. infact the very act of allowing people to do better than one another guarantees unequal outcome because people pass their advantages onto their kids. as soon as one person does better than another and then they both have kids... poof, equal opportunity is gone

that's why fairness is distinct from any form of equality and is a more realistic and sustainable option

[grega239]

@007kingifrit "well you can't have equal opportunity to prove your skill because people are born with natural advantages".

Yes and the way to see who naturally better is to give everyone the opportunity to prove it

[007kingifrit]

that's just not possible because we don't have enough resources to give everyone the same education. interviews, or tools etc etc

[PinkMichae]

@007kingifrit We have the same opportunity to make choices that make us successful or not. We can take different paths that lead to the ability to succeed.

[grega239]

@007kingifrit yes you do. Because as far as i know elementary school is mandatory. Whatever academic path comes after that is up to the individual themselves. Parental oversight is obviously a huge factor.

Yes some people will have more success than other simply by talent but that talent can only be discovered if every has an equal opportunity to show it

[007kingifrit]

@grega239 yeah but your ability to learn in elementary school is already diminished or enhanced by your home life before day 1 of school. infact some studies show breast milk makes kids much smarter so even that shows opportunity can never be equal

[msc545]

equality of opportunity is fine - equality of outcome is definitely NOT

[Anonymous]

equality of opportunity because people need to be challenged and incentivized to work hard otherwise they won't

[JesseJayNeak]

Opportunity. You should earn it, it shouldn't be given to you on a silver plate

[Andres77]

You nailed it. I can't improve on what you said.

[PinkMichae]

Thank you.😎

[NYCQuestions1976]

Opportunity? Yes. Outcome? No.

[Hawner]

Both.