Should a teacher have her teaching license revoked for providing her students the QR code of the Brooklyn Public Library’s catalogue of banned books?

[OtterMan68]

The state of Oklahoma revoked her teaching license over the advice of a judge.

Yes, encouraging her students to read banned books is wrong

No, encouraging her students to read banned books is wrong

Yes, she broke the law

No, it's not like high school students don't see or hear worse on social media and mass media

Updates

8 mo

Here's a link to the NY Library banned books site
https://www.nypl.org/spotlight/books-for-all

[DrPepper12]

If the school board prohibits any of those books then she acted in a manner that voided her contract and is subject to disciplinary measures. No questions there!

Now, should she have done it or should books be banned in general are entirely separate arguments and I have some VERY strong feelings on this as a ex teacher.

My job school HS & my kids HS PURPOSEFULLY set up displays of books banned elsewhere and actively encouraged kids to read them. Couldn't be more proud! Also have QR codes to banned books too.

My kids at times have asked for books that were really heavy and explicit on real world issues and we never said no. Ever. If they can ask the question, they deserve an age appropriate answer and the same goes for sex ed too!

For any parent to say "this book is unfit for our community" WILL EARN MY UNDYING WRATH and I will say "No! That book MAY be inappropriate for YOUR child and YOU have the RIGHT to withhold it from YOUR child but I will be DAMNED if YOU think you can make that decision for MY child and OUR community". I deplore book banners.

And as an aside, teachers & librarians are trained, experienced professionals with a wealth of knowledge and pedagogy; why wouldn't a parents default be to TRUST the pros they pay for? I don't get it? I trust pros in any field BECAUSE THEY'RE SMARTER THAN ME!!

[Avicenna]

That's a parental decision, and you don't contract out your parenting to others. Another aspect of it is that there are people who have things other than your kids' best interests in mind when they expose them to material that is inappropriate for kids.

[DrPepper12]

"in loco parentis" Wanna guess what it means in LEGAL terms as concerns the relationship between schools and students?

Yes. Bad apples in every profession. What's your point?

Why did you not address the other parts of my post? 🤔

[Ladsin2]

You think it's ok for teachers to give sexually explicit content to their students without parental consent, and against school policy?

[DrPepper12]

JFC @ladsin2. They're not GIVING their just not preventing access that professional librarians pedogogically trained have determined is age appropriate and relevant

[Ladsin2]

The QA said the teacher gave children the QR code for access. The picture is a graphic porn novel that is on that list. Are you ok with teachers giving that material to a kindergartener?

[DrPepper12]

She's a HS teacher. Do keep up dear...

[Ladsin2]

The question doesn't state that anywhere. In the poll it mentions high school once, but doesn't state emphatically that she is a HS teacher.
Even if that's the case you can treat my question as a hypothetical to discuss the point. Is it ok to give sexually explicit material to children without parental consent? If so at what age? You could say, for example, it's ok for teachers to provide sexually explicit materials to students without parental consent after 15, but not before. Or you could say it's only ok for college students. Or you could say it's fine to give it to 5 year olds. This is your comment, so I'm trying to pick your brain.

[DrPepper12]

Sure. This is easy! When the school board, elected by the community, authorized and approve the curriculum then teachers can teach it. Communities differ but it all comes down to the locally elected school board. Then the professional with experience in pedagogy decided HOW to present said curriculum.

[Ladsin2]

Right. In this case the school board banned these books because they're sexually explicit and trying to be delivered to minors... Most any parent would not be ok with this material being shown to their children which is why people are trying to hide what they're doing with vaugeries.

[DrPepper12]

I said from the very beginning she violated BoE policy and that the end of that. She's wrong for doing it as a violation but not in my mind or reasoning if no BoE policy existed

[Juxtapose]

If the books have sexual content like this:

"I put some lube on and got him on his knees. I began to slide into him from behind. I pulled out of him and kissed him while he masturbated. He asked me to turn over while he slipped a condom on himself. This was my ass and I was struggling to imagine someone inside me. He got on top and slowly inserted himself into me. It was the worst pain I think I have ever felt in my life. Eventually I felt a mix of pleasure with the pain."

- All Boys Aren't Blue (book that was switched out of libraries due to pornographic content)

Then they deserve punishment.

[OtterMan68]

I posted the link to the NY Library's list

[Juxtapose]

What I said still stands.

[DrPepper12]

Totally acceptable for HS students to have access to. Have you even recently SEEN accurate middle school health curriculums? Anal sex and homosexuality is a covered topic for 12 & 13 yo! It's the abstinence only health curriculums in backwards states that is REALLY fucked up!

[Juxtapose]

@DrPepper12 health class and sexual education is not an excuse to fill school libraries with smut.

[Juxtapose]

Kind of wondering why the far left is so obsessed with shoving pornography in the hands of children.

[DrPepper12]

Because it's a real world issues that doesn't stop being an issue just because the kids are in school. Then you guidance from train professionals in pedagogy and curriculum. They need a safe place to discuss ideas.

What is the purpose of sex education then?

ITS NOT PORNOGRAPHY!! It's literature. Real shit. Real issues for real kids. It's essential that we provide the entire pageant of the liberal arts curriculum and let them use it as they see fit. Aka, HOW TO THINK, NOT WHAT TO THINK

[Juxtapose]

@DrPepper12 that's called home. School is not the place for discussing sexual stuff besides health class and sexual education. The purpose of sexual education is obvious.

No, what they're showing those kids and what I could copy and paste for you right now is straight up smut that would get my post removed. People who give lewd material to minors are sexual predators.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

The idea of “banned books” when pertaining to education means that she’s not allowed to include it in her lesson plan, meaning she can’t test them on their knowledge of the books or teach anything about it. Giving them access to the list is not breaking the law, it’s just telling them what books are banned and gives them the opportunity to read it on their own and think critically about why they might be banned.

[DrPepper12]

Right on!!! 👊🏻💪🏻♥️

[DishLady]

Depends why they're banned and how old the students are --> College students? Then no. Elementary school children? Then yes.

[OtterMan68]

high school

[DishLady]

Hmm... A hs with a board of trustees would have the teacher fired for sure. A public school MIGHT have the teacher fired OR might applaud it given the current political climate coupled with the lack of literacy.

[BetaBucks]

Intentionally directing children to adult material is a crime in the state of California. She should be arrested too. Assuming the books are banned because of sexual content. if it's just ideology based bans, then she's just mildly stepping out of her role as a teacher and should maybe get a written warning.

[OtterMan68]

Here's some of the books on the NY Library list of banned books
Speak Laurie Halse Anderson
King and the Dragonflies Kacen Callender
Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi
The Catcher in the Rye JD Salinger

Which books on the list are too adult for high school students

[BetaBucks]

Is that the entire list of the books that are banned? Do any of the banned books include sexual content?

[OtterMan68]

I posted the link in the updates

[BetaBucks]

I've never read any of the books, so I wouldn't know. Besides Catch in the Rye. Which obviously has adult themes, so it's normal to require parental consent before exposing kids to it. Some kids don't drink and fuck like I used to do in high school, so I get why a parent would want to keep that kind of content away from their kids. It's not sexual content, in the illegal sense, of course.

But for the rest of the books, I wouldn't know if they had explicit sexual content or not. Have you read all of them and do you know?

[OtterMan68]

these books were banned. It wasn't a parental cosent thing

[BetaBucks]

I'm referring to a teacher using their role to direct kids to the books. When I was in school, parents needed to give consent for our teachers to show us certain media and books. Meaning the teacher stepped past a normal boundary in what she did. And in that case, it's a minor issue, but should be addressed.

As for the rest of the material, I don't think either of us know if it contained explicit sexual content (or you just don't want to say) so I'll revert back to my original comment about the nature of the material being the deciding factor. If there was explicit sexual content the kids were directed towards, fire and prosecute. If not, it's a minor disciplinary issue that should be documented and everyone can move on.

[DrPepper12]

@betabucks. Yes some of those books have graphic descriptions of homosexual sex. It's totally fine for HS. This teacher however violated school board policy and as such should be subject to disciplinary measures.

I was supposed to get permission in my district to show 8th graders Schindler's list because it's rated R. Many in the community informed the board that they didn't GAF what the rating was - they fully trusted the educational practitioners and said It's something that should be shown to 8th graders. The policy was changed to you have to actively opt out of seeing it for your kid. No parent has ever said no in 20 years. I think teachers should get the same level of trust with all kinds of complex topics. They're the trained pedagogical specialists - treat them as such and trust their expertise and experience.

[AviatorTom]

Interesting question. My answer depends on a few things. How old were the students? Did she give them the QR code as part of an assignment on censorship?

If high school students and it was part of a legitimate assignment, then I don't see the harm.

I'm also wondering what the QR code allowed the students to see I'm guessing its just the index of banned books, not the ability to read them. If that's true, then again, I don't see a problem.

[DrPepper12]

No The QR code leads directly to digital version of the books that the kids can read.

[Avicenna]

The decision to revoke a teaching license is a legal one, meaning it had to fit the legal criteria for doing so. Like it or not, when you sign a teaching contract, you agree to follow a lot of rules, including ones you may not personally agree with.

There are a lot of books that are not simply inappropriate for K-12 children, including one you personally want them reading- Hitler's Mein Kampf.

[Avicenna]

* are simply inappropriate

[DrPepper12]

CORRECT!! TY @Avicenna. You do credit to you're namesake today!!! ♥️

[Ladsin2]

Giving children access to pornography is grooming behavior and introducing them to sexually explicit materials, especially without the consent of the parents should result in a jail sentence.

[OtterMan68]

which books on that list were porn?

[Ladsin2]

Gender queer

[Ladsin2]

No response to that Eh?

[DrPepper12]

What's wrong with HS kids reading that? Middle school health curriculums cover anal sex and homosexuality as it is in normal states. It's the backwards ignorant states that have abstinence only health education.

[Ladsin2]

@DrPepper12 Why do you think it was banned?

[DrPepper12]

What is Cuz USA is full of ignorant prude rigid Bible thumpers for $400 Alex?

[Ladsin2]

@DrPepper12 The school board is full of rigid bible thumpers?

[DrPepper12]

In backwards states yes! Don't forget a said ignorant and prude too

[Anonymous]

Freedom of speech trumps all other interests. They have a right to this information.

[DrPepper12]

YAAAASS!!! 👊🏻♥️

[exitseven]

No, it is a free country

[DrPepper12]

Wow!!! 😲 Just wow!! ♥️