Are you now or have you hired people at a professional level?

[msc545]

If so, what problems in their applications have you noted? I am having numerous difficulties with undereducated people and people with unrelated education applying for a professional position. Also difficulty with people claiming they have degrees that their resume does not reflect.

[slatyb]

Is formal education required? I hired a lot of programmers and most degrees meant very little. Graduates from top schools tended to know their stuff because if they hadn't learned it, they wouldn't have completed the degree.

At Amazon we ask two kinds of questions of developers:

* tell us about a time when you behaved as a professional and not an order taker.

* programming problems to be solved at a whiteboard. These are not absurdly hard. I screened problems and if I couldn't create a working solution in Python in about five minutes I threw them out as too hard. The candidates got about 30 minutes.

About 75% of candidates couldn't code, even with a CS degree and some experience. Finally Amazon created an online screening test and that saved a lot of wasted interviews. Even so, some candidates would cheat on the screening test. One found a solution online, pasted it in as their solution, then realized that maybe we would see that so they quickly deleted it and then retyped it. They got an interview and absolutely bombed as they could not code at all. I feel sorry for those candidates. They pay a lot of money to attend some state university program in CS, run the obstacle course to graduation as directed, get a diploma with a high GPA and believe they were ready for the market. Then they interview at a FAANG company and find out they are completely unprepared.

[msc545]

For the job that I am hiring for, a fairly substantial amount of formal education is required in that they need to have at least a master's degree. Many of them claim to have such a degree and as it turns out they do not. They give themselves a way by stating they have one on my screen in question online and then not reflecting it on their resume.

[slatyb]

Is it education you require, or expertise? They aren't necessarily connected.

[msc545]

The education is required, and if they have it along with the degree, the expertise is nearly always present. It is fairly easy to assess all of this. It is the deliberate lying on the application that has been disqualifying many of them.

[lightbulb27]

not now but in the past yes.

Technical field seemed easier as can examine their skills and today I hear they get tests, often from consulting companies. The worst were over educated people with no real life application experience. Made several bad hires and way to avoid that is to really like the personality. If they seem emotionally balanced, that is good. If they are too logical and fact without balance, trouble. My environment required them to work effectively w others.

It's a whole another skillset to hire and to manage people. Just because you are competent technically in your profession doesn't mean you are emotionally cut out for management. But you may be.

From what I see of high school and some college, no wonder. Their job is to get them that degree and get the money, not make a polished person.

In your field... likely best success with foreign students/immigrants which often have solid parents and value systems or those whom can talk about why they went into the field (because they sufferred personally) and how they grew. That mean, they have some real life to apply and maybe a heart for those whom are hurt, thus willing to learn.

[dustybiker2]

You will get that a lot. I'd personally rather hire the person who is brutally honest about things they do not know and shows the drive to want to learn them. Honesty there shows honest character. = Much better employee.

[msc545]

Yes. I had an applicant who listed herself as "Dr" and actually used the title in front of her name. Looking at her CV I realized in about 2 seconds that not only did she not earn that title, she actually never attended college. Migod.

[dustybiker2]

Dr Phil did the same thing and made a show for himself through Oprah I believe it was. Dr. Drew tried to fight that title saying he hadn't earned it either. People... honestly.

[msc545]

Actually Dr. Phil did earn that title as far as I can tell. The real problem is that much of what he does is pretty much unethical and he also has no license to practice in California and does it anyway. I personally cannot stand the man.

[dustybiker2]

I don't think Dr Drew Pinsky would have gone public if he hadn't looked it up. He's too well known. But I've never liked Phil either. Always disagreed with what he had to say on back on Oprah so never watched his show.

[msc545]

He send a lot of kids to Utah facilities where they often get abused. I suspect he gets paid by the facilities for each boy.

[dustybiker2]

Eck
Hadn't heard that.

[msc545]

I am in a position to hear stuff like that. Most people do not.

[exitseven]

Yes, I have hired several. I have learned that people pad their resumes or just outright lie about things. I never give them the benefit of the doubt. I also have written exam I produced to gauge how much technical knowledge they have. I never made a bad hire. Most of the people I hired went on to bigger and better things. Maybe I trust my gut as well.

I have been teaching Computer Science at a local college for the last year. I had not taught in 3 or 4 years and I noticed that the students I have today are lacking in basic math and English skills., these people are the same ones that were in high school when Covid happened and they had 2 years of online learning.

[msc545]

ugh. This is very new to me.

[exitseven]

welcome to the party, pal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wRZCV7naE

[Sevenpointfive]

i think whenever you endevour yourself into a job working for some entity that pays you it becomes professional.

[msc545]

I guess that depends on how you define "professional". The things I do require very solid proof of a shitload of education and an expensive license.

[Sevenpointfive]

yeah, yeah? a shitload of paper money for a signed paper with a paper receipt. i know plenty of idiots that got a degree. they shouldn't have been able to.

[msc545]

Sorry, it is quite different from that if you also have a medical license.

[Sevenpointfive]

this brings me to teachers. bottom of the barrel clingers to their degrees because they won't become a manager and make 4x as much there.

[msc545]

Teaching is actually very difficult below the University level...

[Sevenpointfive]

not really. wives and communities have done it for years. they weren't all without degrees either

[msc545]

True, but that doesn't make it less difficult.

[Sevenpointfive]

no. it wasn't a gun back then but the ruler harmed far more

[msc545]

whatt?

[Sevenpointfive]

those witches

[msc545]

Did you go to a Catholic School?

[Sevenpointfive]

no, but the church did have a school attached. we rarely interacted with the schoolies. they were a lot different though.

[Ariesman81]

Sporadic or short work history. Lack of references even with extensive work history. Just poor work ethic period.

[princeofromance]

People often will lie to get a job.

[msc545]

These are not even good lies. They will say they have a graduate degree, and then when I look at their CV there is no such degree listed. Very sad.

[princeofromance]

Yes, it is more than sad. These people are taking jobs away from a person who actually meets the qualifications for the job.

[msc545]

Actually, they are so clumsy they are likely to be caught. Just pathetic.