Captain Marvel--Pandering to Women in Poor Writing

[RationalMale]

Yes, I am back again to bash a feminist movie. Let's jump right in to Captain Marvel and tackle a few glaring points on this film, in no particular order. (Side note: almost a month after release, I just saw it yesterday at a Sunday 2pm matinee. Surprisingly, the theater was pretty packed.)

SPOILERS AHEAD!

1. Where's the Arc?

Simply put, how is Carol a different person at the end of the film vs the beginning? At the beginning of the film, she is a wise cracking, sardonic, super powered and confident soldier willing to rush into danger to complete a mission, and willing to risk her life to save others.

At the end of the movie she is... a wise cracking, sardonic, super powered, confident soldier willing to rush into danger to complete a mission, and willing to risk her life to save others. The only difference is she's giddy with her own super power abilities at the end. Why is this? Because women are perfect and don't you dare think she has a flaw!

"But we see her face her failures and overcome them!" You say. "That's her arc!"

Please tell me you're joking. Her failure flashbacks include getting pushed down as a little kid (by a sibling?) crashing a go kart/bicycle (tell me you never crashed as a kid, I dare you to say that lie) and falling from a rope during some crazy difficult exercise in boot camp. NONE OF THESE ARE ACTUAL FAILURES. Any adult who has had any semblance of a life has had bigger failures and shortcomings. Oh, and her crash where the feminized Mar-Vel got killed?

A pilot who never flew a single combat mission went into a dogfight against an alien spacecraft eons more advanced, piloted by an experienced combat veteran, put up a good fight, survived getting hit, crash landed at insane speeds, and literally walked away unharmed with her copilot alive. That's not a failure, that's superhuman amazing.

Oh and yes, she was captured briefly so the Skrulls could help revive her memory... and literally escaped moments after regaining consciousness, literally breaking out of her massive restraints in seconds and beating her innumerable opponents down with her own handcuffs. Meanwhile...

Remember that God of Thunder? Who apparently is perpetually as vulnerable to tasers as your average college student, despite shooting lighting out of his hands?

Here's an example of a Marvel character who has suffered and sacrificed and made mistakes and had to change core parts of who they were,

2. Arrogance is a virtue... if you are a woman.

If you watched Captain Marvel, you remember how Carol is basically a cocky smartass from start to finish--and the climactic battle is literally her running around to a peppy tune, making jokes and beating everyone from her former teammates, to destroy ships by standing still and letting them hit her, to blasting her old commander and saying "I have nothing to prove to you!"

Thor literally was cast out from Asgard reprimanded for arrogance, pride, and vanity. Not until he learns humility and becomes willing to lay down his life does he regain his powers and his birthright.

Tony Stark starts out an arrogant playboy, and is indeed humbled and learns self sacrifice. When he flies too high and cocky... he gets knocked down, repeatedly.

If you've seen the movie you remember the climactic battle consists of him nearly being beaten to death while trying to keep bystanders and his girlfriend safe.

Instead... Carol Danvers is pure arrogance the entire movie. I guess a woman's only fatal is letting people hold her back from her greatness?

3. yeah. That climax.

No, no Marvel character is going to get killed in first movie. But even SUPERMAN managed to have an end fight where it seemed like he was matched and actually in serious danger. Carol's end fight is literally her handing out ass kickings like it's Halloween and she's Willy Wonka with a semi truck of candy. There's not even a second where she seems to be in real peril. The climactic fight with her old commander, who actually kidnapped her? It is turned into a joke.

4. DO NOT GIVE ME THAT "Female Lead Actresses in action movies!" BS

I was going to include like 548 pictures of female lead action movies buuutt I don't think you need it.

[btbc92]

As much as I never seen the movie before. But I have to say that I am sorry to say this, but you are absolutely right. As somebody who writes stories and scriptwriting as well, is the one thing I want to avoid with my characters. Yes is always good to have one or two characters that are like that. But it's definitely not something you want to have as a main character. Maybe in a sense you are over analyzing it. And that's okay too. But I definitely have to bring and what you're saying.

I won't necessarily say that she is arrogant. Sometimes that's just her being strong to hide her weaknesses from her enemies. I believe what they're trying to say is that regardless what to expect in life, don't let anybody hold you back is right. But do not forget who helps you achieve where you are today. Though from everything that you are saying, it does sound like she is indeed poorly-written.

[SpiderManFan2002]

I'm a feminist and I've seen the trailer and I think it looks bad!

Her acting seems so wooden, I've seen wonder woman, the story may have been a little bland but Gal Gadot's acting was amazing! I've seen Alita: Battle Angel, her acting, the story- I loved it!

I haven't seen Captain Marvel yet, the trailer looks disappointing and the reviews seem just as disappointed as I was at the trailer- and I can't say I agree with some of the things Brie Larson has said in real life. But I'll watch it anyway to keep up with the MCU.

I'm not going to blindly support her just because she's a woman because that's sexist.

[RationalMale]

Hmm yeah i feel like kate beckinsale is better in underworld as a character.

[SpiderManFan2002]

I haven't seen underworld haha.

[cykasenpai]

I think her acting was good, she played the semi-awkward character well, but the plot was lackluster and characters fairly shallow.

[RationalMale]

@cykasenpai Are we talking Kate or Brie?

[cykasenpai]

Brie.

[Maguel]

I felt the same as you when i saw the movie. Also same issues were there with the wonder woman movie. It's cool and all to have female main leads but these movies take "empovering women" waaaaaaay too far. These characters have been made "too perfect". They are ridiculously overpowered. Haven't made any real mistakes. It also feels as if these characters have no history behind them and they just popped out from thin air like "im perfect leave everything to me"

By comparison i saw a movie called Alita which also had a "female" lead and that movie was amazing by comparison.

[RationalMale]

I felt Wonder Woman was a lot better honestly

[Anonymous]

wow... you could just ask the question that you really want to "Why are other lesser unworthy people wanting to be equal to the noble white man?

Does the idea of a woman lead hurt your delicate manhood that much?

I truly pity you... it must be horrible to be so wounded by things like this. You the type of boy that gets off seeing women get attacked and the only children you might have will involve the phrase "sexual assault"

[RationalMale]

Why is it that the people who leave comments like this usual end up like Joe Biden, being exposed as creepy predators?

[CoffeeWC]

The real reason this movie, along with any other superhero movie with a feminist agenda. Producers idolize feminism.

[ObscuredBeyond]

This film is what I purposely avoid when I write female hero leads in my own work.
======SAMPLES=====

Candi (Ciem) is not anything like Carol. She was a victim of sexual abuse as a child, and is really messed up because of it. Yet, she's fairly humble most of the time. And has an Alita-like determination to go to extremes to protect those she loves. And yet, she does sometimes judge others too quickly. And has to learn to not do so. She also doesn't think that her sleeping around will hurt anyone. And then it does, and she accepts the BS prison sentence by the end of her first story, so she can get help for her real problems. Her family tells her to fight the case and that it's unfair. But she won't let them get hurt, and feels she screwed up anyway - just, differently. She has too much integrity to claim that nothing that happened was her fault. She still beats up the bad guys, but even then, needs help to do so. And isn't too proud to ask for help when one of the villains clearly out-classes her.

Hea has the means to become way more powerful than John (Gray Champion) - yet, she chooses not to, because she fears that power corrupts, and sees herself as susceptible. She realizes that this makes her an easy target for villains due to being weaker; but she doesn't care.

Mingmei Cheng (Stung Hornet) and Zize Choi (Plum Bixie) are really talented at doing spy and assassin work. But the MSS only sees them as honeypots; and they get frustrated with how no matter how often they save China; they get no respect. Mingmei finally gets reassigned to work on Shing Xu (Black Rat), and becomes what she was meant to be after making friends that do respect her.

Zize gets trapped behind enemy lines in Idaho, and joins a resistance against the Hebbleskins that have taken it over. As part of the resistance, she finally earns the respect of others - something she never had before, and is grateful to have.

Anda (Extirwraith) wants to do good; but has to overcome her own evil desires and tendencies to avoid becoming the villain herself. (She's still batshit crazy by the end.)

Kayla (Crystal Swan Cortascian Knight II) could've ended her persecution and worked for Hanom sooner; but was too willing to compromise and take odd jobs for criminals (since the Gwirdons convinced everyone she was a criminal anyway, and wouldn't let her get a legitimate job anywhere.) After Hanom and Volkonir spring her from a Gwirdon death trap, she is determined to redeem herself by any means. All because she didn't wanna have to take a bus to Bozeman with a toddler in her arms and arrive with no money, on the hopes that she *might* land her dream job. (And the Gwirdons kill the kid, so she feels bad about that too.)

Miriam was cocky and manipulative; but is humiliated quickly when her sister is almost blamed for one of her own morally questionable antics. When it stops being harmless fun, she learns to be more responsible quickly.

Point being: all these women have actual shortcomings, flaws, and failures, that haunt them. Not some snowflake "I fell down once playing baseball;" but genuine guilt and self-loathing over failures and character deficiencies that have previously defined them for the worse.
===========
Carol... never faces any serious consequences for her attitude. And learns nothing by the end. Because the script was written by Tide Zombies who are allergic to classic morality character arcs.

She is as bland and offensive as Mike Meyers' take on the Cat in the Hat. Yes, I went there. Cat-Pain Marvel... deserves to be a critical failure.

[CherryRoseChampange]

Tbh I didn't like the movie because I thought she wasn't fit enough to be the savior of the whole universe. She's kind of impulsive and dumb. I didn't like that. Also the humor they tried to fit in was at terrible times compared to when they did it for other superheros. Which was already kind of annoying.

I don't know I just found the writing kind of bland and like what it was. A space filler. Maybe it was supposed to empower women but I didn't get that vibe. I got a space filler vibe. No real substance, just a quick movie to explain the next Avengers. Although, I will honestly liked the female supporting actress more. If empowerment was their aim, that woman would have been my pick. She's a mother, intelligent, had depth, and maturity as well as genuineness to her.

Which is ironic considering the first Captain Marvel woman was Black. And she was actually a good character that people fought to try to bring back. I think going that route would have been better but after how much people overreacted to Black Pather I'm not surprised they didn't bring Monica Rambeau back.

[RationalMale]

And Captain Mar-Vell was a white man, but they didn't have any qualms with over writing that

[dancing_in_nebulas]

I do hate how tasteless her character is.

It's the same cliche' story of being the underdog because of being a bit smaller, weaker, (a woman?,) and being in masculine situations such as military piloting, and a battle force intergalactic team.

Not saying women can't do it, but we aren't built to climb as high, hold on as long, or even have as great of coordination. For totally naturally reasons that give our particular species necessary advantages to thrive.

To me, it felt rushed and so dry that Africa is sending aid.

Women don't have to be the underdogs, and we don't have to be free spirited ass kickers as men are.

Honestly, the women who are not spotlighted super heroes, take a lot more shit than the actual super hero women. Take Pepper - Tony Stark's wife... she had to be very quick witted, resilient and detailed to make sure he did not die, and act as a very powerful back bone.

The problem is, society teaches us women, to be ashamed of being the backbone, because somehow that makes us less than the men.

Ironic, that feminism teaches that we have to be like men, in order to be important...

[Belgie]

Nice take. I'd followed a ton of the youtube stuff about this movie, and it was ridiculous how the legitimate issues raised by some were all mislabelled as "trolls" by wilfully ignorant or shockingly misinformed SJW's who wound up not even seeing or supporting the movie in the end...

So let's leave Bree as a actress to one side for a sec, and the bullshit spread by Disney and the insincere actions by parties like Rotten Tomatoes to... well, several other sides. And let's just look at the movie.

I took my nephew to see it, like I did for many superhero movies, Marvel and DC. He loved it. He's not old enough to have seen Rocky or any of its sequels. This was his first introduction to the theme that it doesn't matter how often you get knocked down, it only matters that you get back up. Captain Marvel represented the Never Give Up, attitude that fans love in characters like Rocky or Batman or whatever. My nephew didn't even notice that the movie was making a knickertwist of pointing out how it was "evil *men*" who kept knocking her down. He just identified with "People tell me I can't do this... BUT I CAN!" Or as John Locke used to say in LOST "Don't you tell me what I can't do!!!"

He loved seeing Nick Fury do his thing. He loved the cat. Every time a Skrull was revealed as having impersonated someone to the surprise of the audience, he laughed and said "I knew it!" even though he was obviously lying...

It's a simplistic superhero origin movie, aimed at kids. It will never be a classic and it isn't timeless. Because as you said, she has no weaknesses, no arc, no real obstacles and no growth.

Superman (1977) had all of those. It is still a classic for that reason. And my nephew watched Spider Man, the Avengers, Thor, Captain America and Black Panther over and over and over and over and over... Once was enough for Captain Marvel.

[RationalMale]

The sad part is they actually could have gone Rocky and given her actual failures to overcome. This movie could've been every bit as amazing as the trailers looked.

[Anonymous]

Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about it, it's raking in the money.

So, you're always free to voice your opinion. But, judging by how much the movie is raking in, people are just either intensely curious about the movie, or they like it. I guess if they like it, you might as well go on the soapbox and call all of them idiots for not being in sync with you about the writing.

Also, it's pointless to compare Captain Marvel with Thor and Iron Man.
How many movies does Captain Marvel has?
How many movies do Thor and Iron Man have between them?

Also, look at the timeline between movies. Look at how they're spaced out.

Do you honestly think the Captain Marvel movie was given as much time as the Thor or Iron Man movies? Seriously?

It's fine to critic a movie.
But anyone who has a decent grasp of the English language can tell that you have some serious issues with female protagonists.

In fact, your entire piece reeks of it stronger than the bread smell that permeates every Subway store.

[RationalMale]

Do you know what projection is? You look like you do it a lot.

[CubsterShura]

I am not even into Marvel so I think it is a crime for me to talk about a Marvel movie. But I read many Classic feminist novels and they are... Phenomenal. I don't know if their English translations are available but if they are I think they are really worth the read.

It sounds quite unrealistic. As much as feminists celebrate success, it takes a lot of people and a lot of time and a lot of trials and failures to reach success. Especially when a certain idea is very new, it take several generations to make it a reality, it doesn't happen overnight.

I have a feeling the movie was made for the sake of a badass feminist movie, and when a movie is made only for the sake of something like that it is almost always never a good one.

[CubsterShura]

I mean, almost never a good one ^^;

[cykasenpai]

What are some examples of classic feminist novels and what characterizes a feminist novel? Female main character?

[CubsterShura]

Mainly in Bengali literature they were written in the 19th and 20th century. It was a time when girls did not go to school and women learning to read and getting education was a sinful act, only a minority of upper class women ever got education. Girls were married off at ages as young as under 10 years. In Hinduism there was a practice that if a woman's husband died then she was also burned alive, which slowly changed into a widowed women only never getting to remarry, but she still had to spend her entire life on a strictly bland vegetarian diet in only white clothes and long hair cut off. But men did not have any of those things, they could live like normal and remarry.

So you would see why female writers WOULD write feminist novels. They mainly feature women as main characters, who have questioned the society's practices that were imposed on her, who wasn't afraid to ask questions and challenge people's notions. And of course, faced heavy rejection, marginalization and even torture.

These books will bring you to tears as you read about the main character getting married at 7. Being mocked by her own children because she can read. Promising to never get her daughter married until they are grown up enough, only to have the rest of her family force her daughter into marriage against their will. Being kicked out by her own husband because of acting so rebellious.

There are some amazing pieces of writing on struggles of women and their failures and trials and what else not. Bengali literature definitely has some of the finest novels of that sort, I don't know if their English translations are available.

[Gramkabir]

Would you please give me some name of those novels?

[CubsterShura]

That's the problem they are all Bengali novels. But I could recommend you to read my favorite trilogy by a famous feminist writer Asha Poorna Devi. This woman's life story is also fantastic. She learned to read just by watching her brothers doing their homework when she was little, and she was just an ordinary woman and housewife. Yet it's amazing how her thoughts and expressions are so modern even in the twenty first century.

The first two books in the trilogy are fortunately available in English. They are called The Forest Promise and Subarnalata. I wish the third one was available too, they are about three generations of mothers and daughters and their struggles in the patriarchal society.

[CubsterShura]

The First* Promise

[Gramkabir]

Don't worry I can read Bengali... That won't be a problem... 😉

[CubsterShura]

Oh nice.

[cykasenpai]

Am I getting it right if I distill your description of Bengali feminist litterature into this: They are criticisms of cultural norms that restrict or harm women.

To pick your brain a bit: I'm really not a fan of today's feminism, and when I hear anything labelled as feminist I very quickly reject that. The reason I say that is because I wonder if criticism against marrying off 7 year old kids perhaps deserves a better title than feminist litterature. Partly because of its tainted past and present but also because, really, having a 7 year old marry someone, or having the wife of someone be burnt as per customs, isn't really so much a feminist issue but more an issue of human rights and freedoms (and I don't use those buzzwords lightly).

[CubsterShura]

@cykasenpai Um it is a feminist issue because feminism literally is about human rights issues that are specific to women. And yes it is feminist literature. That's what it is called, that's what it is and that's what it always will be no matter what YOU think first when the word feminism comes into your mind.

[cykasenpai]

I never said the label was wrong, but I do think you're devaluing the subject/work itself by giving it the label feminist litterature. It alienates male interest for no good reason (and thereby devaluing the importance of the work, which is more a question of morality than it is a question of female equality).

[Kiran_Yagami]

It's not even pandering to women. It's pandering to a certain type of thinking that has become prevalent in our society, social justice. The idea that society at large should be in charge of policing their own by means of intimidation, bullying, slandering, and ostracizing. They are, of course, batshit crazy and even dangerous, but they are not morally or factually correct. History has proven time and time again that mob rule, which is all social justice really is, is both destructive and terrifying and can set civilizations back centuries or destroy them outright.

[SketchForger]

Ok... My personal issues with captain marvel weren't because of the message, it's because I wasn't a fan of the whole "superman" story structure in general.

Nobody complains that superman is over powered, because he's superman. I personally think superman is boring, and honestly, dislike captain marvel for the same reasons I dislike superman.

But people are not mad about Captain Marvel because she's powerful. They're mad because they're in defense mode in reaction to a strong character who is marketed as a female superhero.

This is coming from a guy who doesn't even think it's an amazing movie. I wouldn't even call it poorly written. There is not much to irrationally criticise it for, and there's also not much to think it's a master piece.

I find it hard to believe that people aren't biased in disliking this film as much as they do.

[RationalMale]

Do I need to start listing action movies with female leads?

[RationalMale]

I don't suppose you have any rebuttal to any of the points aside from " but but misogyny"!

[SketchForger]

There are plenty of bad movies with male roles, but why is pandering to women a bad thing? There are plenty of movies that pander to men.

It's not really a discussion of misogyny, while I doubt you actually read my post, it's about why captian marvel specifically is under such a microscope in terms of criticism.

[RationalMale]

Captain marvel was sold as a specific bill of goods. Thats why it's scrutinized--it failed by its own metric. No one gave underworld or resident evil or such such scrutiny because they weren't sold as amazing girl power feminist inspiration

[oddwaffle]

Well, I guess congratulations that you have just realized that ALL HEROES are the same every single time! This latest superhero is the same. She is the same as every other loser heroes you had before.

Heroes are always the same. You can add some flavor to them but they are simply one dimension characters with a single purpose. They are predictable. You can tell exactly how the story will go.

It is the good villains that will drive a good story. Not the heroes. The villains are what you want to focus on.

Deep, driven, mad, brilliant, powerful, sexy the villains that will make you feel terrified but also fascinating!!!

In the context of superheores, I like Anarchy and the modern Joker a lot.

[JamesRandiDebates]

B... b... b... but... PUSSY! See? She has a VAGINA! YOU CAN'T CRITIQUE HER. YOU DON'T HAVE A VAGINA. YOU'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED MISOGYNY. YOU'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED MANSPLAINING. YOU'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED MANSPREADING. YOU'VE NEVER BEEN RAPED 4 OUT OF EVERY 3 TIMES YOU LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. YOU'VE NEVER BEEN A SLAVE. Oh, wait. Wrong victim group. YOU'VE NEVER KNOWN WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WOMAN IN A MAN'S WORLD! CAPTAIN MARVELOUS IS THE GREATEST SUPERHERO EVER IMAGINED. AND SHE MADE THE GREATEST SUPERHERO MOVIE OF ALL TIME. IN FACT, THE GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME.! SHE DESERVES OSCARS!

[imgudluv]

My expectations were high for this movie and i was dissapointed towards the end. 2 boring hours. The males in marvel have better action scenes but hers didn't even exceed theirs yet her name is Captain Marvel.

[No_Archons]

How about Rey from disney wars? How's that for shit character? Hell, name a good character from the modern star wars movies. At least qui gon was fucking cool, obi wan was a badass and avenged his master, jar jar binks has more of an arc than fking rey.

[RationalMale]

Given how badly reviewed last jedi was, how poorly Solo immediately did at the box office, it will be interesting to see how rise of skywalker fares.

[Galian84]

Nice review! I'm in agreement with all of it, and I really wanted to like this movie. Wonder Woman and Black Widow still remain my favorite female superheroes =)

[RationalMale]

Scarlett was great in winter soldier, i hope her movie gives her character even more depth

[Thatsamazing]

... Yeah but you should have just reviewed the movie and let it stand. Basically everything you're saying is on point, but no one is going to take you seriously with all the "RAAAHHHH FEMINISM BAD" nonsense, like you don't even need to start off with that. Just make your points and make them well.

[Zodiac10]

Yeah I feel your reading into it a bit much. I would say her arc was finding who she was. Which is what every superhero struggles with. I think they did really well. Marvel could have made it super sjw and they didn't. I appreciate them not doing to. They only time I cringed was when it was showing her getting up over and over.

[sasukeuchiha7]

Even with shuri, she has the same or even greater intellect as tony. she is also equally arrogant and egoistic but Tony's attitude has always been shown as his weakness. But for shuri, her arrogance, disrespect to culture and ego have been shown as cool and empowering

[coachTanthony]

That movie sucked ass. Thank god I saw it on bootleg. It felt as if they slapped this one together. I could of read a comic and understood more about Captain Marvel... well the rip off version. We all know the real Captain Marvel is SHAZAAM

[Anonymous]

It was kinda bland. Lile I believed Gal Has It as wonder woman in the 3 DC movies she was in even when she was pregnant doing fight scenes.
Allison Brie barely looked like she could barely run to the end of the block.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

captain marvel isn't bad because it's a feminist movie. it's bad because it's a marvel movie and the vast majority of them suck ass... the only actual good marvel studios movie is ironman 1. the rest are either ok, at best, or straight ass.

[RationalMale]

for a marvel movie it is entertaining and visually a show, but the writing is low quality for even a marvel movie.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

that's literally the entire point of marvel movies. good visuals and shitty writing, and even worse plot.

[sasukeuchiha7]

Ok , how dare you? The only marvel movie that had bad plot was Thor 2. The others most were amazing.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

@sasukeuchiha7 you clearly have not seen thor 1, any of the avengers movies, or pretty much any iron man movie that isn't the 1st 1...

[sasukeuchiha7]

I've seen every marvel movie at least 5 times each. But okay you keep your opinion. I'll keep mine.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

@sasukeuchiha7 that seems a bit excessive, but good on ya!