No, Models Aren't Supposed to be "Sexy"... And, No, the Fashion Industry Isn't Conspiring to Make Us Starve Ourselves (Page 2)
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So a couple things:
Like how you brought up Godwin's Law. It funny 'n shit.
It's about time someone mentioned how the men's ideal female body is bigger than women's ideal. I was starting to get a wee bit annoyed.
(y)
Hah... Women who know and understand men, will know well enough. A few of my girlfriends and I have a running joke of, basically, "when my man starts lovin' even more on me... I know it's time to diet again" ahahah 😂😂😂😂
nice mytake, i must say if i masturbate to pictures of amateur women that somehow ended up on the intrenet i always look them in the eyes as im about to cum instead of their body, its 10 times intenser to orgasm.
a similar take on male fitness models would be cool too, i wonder how they compare to these female models and how their models of business can be compared too of course.
Thanks! Hopefully the admins will move it back to "society & culture" soon enough, lol. Damn auto-filters.
With fitness models it's a little different. Even female fitness models tend to be *somewhat* more front-and-center and "in yr face" in general.
This makes sense if you think about it... I mean, think about the kind of women who self-select into being serious fitness enthusiasts.
Fitness is very no-nonsense and no-bullshit -- results are results, and they don't depend AT ALL on "human factors". You can't use feminine charms to lift heavier weights, nor can you seduce away a bad diet.
So, fitness advertising is going to appeal to a subgroup of women who are more OK than most with directness.
Advertising directed at men -- regardless of whether it's fitness or fashion -- tends to be pretty direct. The guys are basically right up there in yr face, for the most part.
One notable difference is that if the advertising is for a non-clothing product -- like a watch -- the ad is MUCH
less likely to feature a model (and much more likely to just feature the product itself, in all its nerdy glory). Take from that what you will.
yeah that makes sense. i like gym girls with some fat mass to be better looking than the majority of fitness models though, signs of fertility play a big role in that for me. as for male fitness models, they are not that impressive, I've seen many guys in the gym that have surpassed their physique. but yeah, fitness models sell supplements so yeah it works for the industry.
Fyi... (you may know this well already, but) "Gym girls with some fat mass" may even BE fitness models.
Fitness models don't stay photo-ready all the time. Getting bodyfat down that low has a whole host of negative effects on the body -- everything from sexual effects (vanished sex drive, no periods) to quality-of-life effects (reduced ambition/drive, constant hunger) to musculoskeletal effects (creaky joints, and even possible degeneration of connective tissue from staying at low bodyfat levels for too long).
Some of those effects can be ameliorated with drugs -- and ya better bet yr butt that basically EVERY major fitness model is on at least *some* kind of performance- and/or appearance-enhancing drugs (although they couldn't ever be honest about it without losing their endorsements) -- but, yeah, nah.
Not as extreme as with bodybuilders, who are in stage-shape for literally three to six HOURS -- after months of prep -- before they go "soft-looking" again and start their
post-contest binge. That's srsly cray.
Fitness models are usually at most **a few days away from** photo-ready -- timelines in modeling are shorter than you'd ever guess -- and they're really good at crash dieting (which CAN be done safely), as well as water and electrolyte manipulation, over those few days.
yeah thats probably true. you would think that instagram fitness models were better because they maintain their fat mass level throughout the year but their body is out of proportion, their glutes and quads are overdeveloped compared to their entire upper body, its not attractive to me, way out of proportion.
"their glutes and quads are overdeveloped compared to their entire upper body"
^^ you got a link/example?
Usually, disproportionate development is just about impossible, unless the trainee is on anabolic steroids (which send extra "Grow!" signals to the muscles that are actually trained, and not to the ones that aren't).
I mean... this is so rare that, when someone has an injury on one side of her/his body, she/he can usually stay just about symmetrical just by training the other (non-injured) side of the body BY ITSELF.
https://jap.physiology.org/content/101/5/1514
(... and that study isn't for injured participants)
So... yeah.
There are, of course, female fitness models who use steroids, but it's rare for them to use in more than smallish amounts (because wanna mb have kids one day, yo).
Could also be surgical. Like, this model has very obviously had liposculpture/liposuction on her stomach -- and, most likely, fat grafting over her abs, too -- and the net result is
just weird:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGr3Pr_R5-8/
I mean... lol at the complete lack of definition anywhere on the rest of her body, compared to the stomach area. That's just some Twilight Zone shit right thurr.
You may also be underestimating the effect of camera angles and camera positioning -- especially when it comes to "overdeveloped glutes" mahah.
Ever seen twerk videos?
Again, if you have a link or two, that would help me understand what you're trying to talk about here.
i dont have a link, i dont know any specific girls like that, but i think its a similar phenomenon to when guys dont work out their legs. you know, they only work out their upper body and their legs compared to that are so tiny. yeah i know that the body symetrifies itself if thats even a word lol. but i think it has limitations though.
now that i think of it, it might as well be butt implants that these girls have and they dont really work out too much at all.
They may have implants, yeah. But, it's REALLY easy to make yr butt look big by just positioning the camera (and yr butt, lol) in a certain way... so, if it's just insta, that's probably all they're doing.
yeah that could be, i know all about the positions to get a massive looking bicep lol.
Victoria's Secret doesn't make me feel bad about myself. If anything it inspires me to be active and healthy and look after myself.
yep -- "aspirational".
I really like their branding! Even though I know it's all cooked up by master marketers ahah.
They don't have VS in the UK, do they?
•___•
Haha yes, we have VS and pink too. It's cute!
yah, I was talking about that with goldie757.
I'm an idiot, I forgot that the fashion show was in London for 2014. Obviously they had a Bond St store by then, if not others.
This is excellent, thanks! While you say this stuff shouldn't need to be backed up by research, I am not sure men are as generally aware of it.
They just might not consciously think about it, yeah... but, if you put the question to most guys, I'm sure they'd realize that *most* women aren't inspired by other women who are bigger than they are. "Thinspo" is a thing for a reason.
Not the same in every demographic, of course -- where I was growing up (poorer parts of Long Beach) I was INSANELY jealous of the girls who actually had ass and hips. Still am, actually. I swear, every other girl in my middle and high schools was a damn video vixen.
But... that isn't the demographic of couture ads.
Speaking of video vixens, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on a not-terribly-related topic: age disparity in films. A lot of people (women?) complain about the great age difference between many of the leading men and their romantic interests on film. Yet these movies seem most popular with women. Is this really some Hollywood worship of youth by male directors and producers, as we are told, or could there be some insidious marketing reason behind it?
Interesting take. 👏👏👏
I have never found VS ads sexy, it's always seemed cutesy to me.
Right? That's pretty much their entire branding strategy.
Also, did you know VS *first* got started as a MAN-friendly store?
I shit you not -- the store first got off the ground as a place where men could feel welcome shopping for "intimates" for their wives. How the times have changed, lol.
Really 😂
VS is pretty new over here.
Ya, seriously.
Right, I didn't *think* VS was over there. I mean... I remember, just a few years ago even, people in the UK were willing to pay murderous prices (including international shipping costs) for VS stuff from US ebay sellers. I think they had the VS perfumes over there, and that was about it.
How long have they had VS retail over there?
I think the first store opened about 4 years ago.
Yeah now that I think about it, the 2014 fashion show was in London, so obviously there must have been stores by then ::smacks self on head:: lol.
Great myTake. You had me all the way through. Well written and well argued.
Thanks!
I remember, you complimented my writing itself last time. (as opposed to the content) <3 That made my day
Your writing is excellent. I love that you back up everything you say with links. I am the anal type who actually clicks on links (or, more accurately perhaps, the curious type). Your humor is also very much appreciated; it helps to keep me reading. Also your use of short, sharp paragraphs is something I -um- aspire to. :)
@brain5000 Thank you.
About the paragraph lengths -- I don't (and can't) read in a straight line. I'm kinda-sorta-like-dyslexic-but-not-REALLY-dyslexic.
Ever see those word-magnets they sell for refrigerators? That's what ALL sentences and paragraphs look like to me, at first. So... if I can't "organize the cloud" INSTANTLY when looking at it, then the paragraph is too long. (:
The upside is that I can read regular text INSANELY fast. If there are two spaces after a period, I can read 1500 to 2000 words a minute. (If there's only one space after a period -- please die a slow painful death, whoever caused that large-scale change since the '80's -- it's only about 1000-1200, because the whole damn thing becomes one giant paragraphcloud.)
The downside is that anything highly technical takes me 6.5 forevers to read, because I actually HAVE to read it in a straight line -- which usually means literally pronouncing it out loud to myself.
I have never found these attractive , besides the fashion industry is run by GAY men , hence no interest in curves.
There are lots of gay fashion designers -- but not really any more than in any other design field.
(A similar percentage of, say, housewares designers are gay, too. Like the guys who design that fancy postmodern furniture.)
It's business, dude. As I explained in the take, the choice of models has EVERYTHING to do with **what will inspire the most women to buy the products**... and NOTHING to do with men's tastes, either gay or straight.
Aye , true , women are bigger consumers than men , hence your comment in the last paragraph , totally agree , profit margins are above all.. money doesn't talk , it shouts fucking loud !!
Isn't the "perfect female body according to men" also thin or slim as you may say? I mean the left one is too thin but the right one ain't fat imo!
Still pretty slim, yeah.
And yes I agree with you that most men dont like anorexic, underweight or stick thin women which is the female ideal. I have a personal experience regarding this... I was stick thin during my late teens and it was not attractive.
Yeah lol.
Well, the female ideal is at least bigger/heavier than the extreme end results of anorexia. (I try to avoid using the word "anorexic" to describe body types, since anorexia can affect someone of any size.)
"Underweight" -- as defined by the US government (BMI values under 18.5) -- actually encompasses both men's and women's ideals of the ideal feminine physique.
That's another term I try not to use -- this time because no two people really agree what it means. But, I can tell what you mean by it here, and I agree with the general idea of what you're saying.
As far as personal experiences --
My weight never fluctuated by more than 10-15 lbs, but, back in the day (and still now aha), whenever I was *up* 10-15 lbs, male attention always EXPLODED. From randoms, and also from every boyfriend I ever had, and from my husband, too.
... And these were guys who met me at my normal weight, so, it's not like their eyes were broken when we met ahah
In my
early to mid-20's, my weight fluctuated between about 118 and 132 lbs... and I'm 6'2".
At the bottom, that's a BMI of about 15. (I was actually an editorial model... hence the interest in writing the take.) I'd say that's below the "male interest threshold"... lol.
I'd like to hear more about the experience you mentioned. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not describe it on here.
I am 5'2" and remained under 100 lbs before hitting my early 20's and I can safely say that I did not look very attractive nor got much attention or compliments as such. But as soon as I increased in weight and got to 110 lbs I started feeling more comfortable with my figure and most clothes fit and flatter me well now. I feel blessed now to be not stick thin but slim 😊
The fashion industry presents clothes on coat hangers ans coat hangers are thin.
www.glaro-products.com/images_2/hangers3.jpg
Even the wooden coat hangers are thin:
www.hangersfactory.com/.../index_coat_hanger.jpg
I'm apparently the outlier in this because I LOVE those waif thin models. I think they have the most attractive bodies
To look at, or to fuck?
Most men seem to have pretty different idealy for those.
Not night-and-day different, of course - but significantly different.
Look at, so far. Haven't yet met a woman in person with that body type
Lol
You may find that the distinction is sharper than you'd thought, once you *do* meet such a woman in real life.
There are some good points in this article but it's basically crap. Most guys I know think models are hot but that doesn't mean they don't think curvy, fuller figured women are hot as well. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another. You can't just lump sum people's taste like that. And yes, there are lots of skinny girls walking around in normal society. I have friends with the "waif" model build and trust me, they haven't struggled much in the dating department. It's mostly about chemistry, personality connection, spirituality and common interests. I'm sort of over these articles presenting mumbo-jumbo like concrete facts. We are way too complex!
Here's another ludicrously comical line in the article..."This picture makes me think "sleepover", which is fun, but also the least sexy thing ever." Yeah, because when guys picture women having a sleepover, sex is the last thing that comes to mind. Ha right.
You might be the smartest woman I've encountered in my entire life.
s16.postimg.org/.../..._2016_08_26_at_05h43_28.png
You understand the literal most successful form of marketing falls under the "sex sells" moniker? That's why there aren't inbread models in paris reping the clothes and it's always the genetically perfect models doing that work.
Attention has always sold more than sex, and always will.
You didn't take a marketing class ever did you?
Your first picture explains it. Men buy a product endorsed by the women based on the body, women based on the perceived sexual attention they will receive from men.
Women's buying habits tend to be directly related to the belief that if a woman with a lot of attention has a product they will too have that attention. Both of which are immoral marketing techniques but that's not going to keep anyone out of shops.
The only reason women are marketed to more these days is due to their increasing positioning in the workplace. Employers are both hiring and being forced to hire more women to "equality" quotas and this increases the buying power of the market demographic while removing a relatively significant amount of the men from the market and decreasing the buying power of men. Things are no longer marketed as gifts to give your girl, it's about giving her what she wants and implied heavily that if you don't she'll find someone that will.
Marketing sex to men, and perceived social power to women.
This is the real truth behind the upswing in feminism and why it hasn't faded away and has become an economic cornerstone. If you market to a demographic that buys based on expert reviews, need, knowledge, logic, general comprehension of the product at hand, you're not going to sell as many as if you sell to a market that purchases on pure ambition and emotion in a way that implies you're part of something greater and explicitly states that your life is better with the product. Selling in a sensorial experience method doesn't work on men in a society based around logic and reasoning it only works in feminized markets where you can manipulate power and the potential to get it, be happier, be prettier, be smarter, etc just by owning a product.
Sensorial Experience Marketing is the biggest marketing kick in the balls the world has ever seen. At least when men had this shit shoved down our throats it was because we'd get laid.
"... women based on the perceived sexual attention they will receive from men"
Ahah no dude. Haute couture? Sexual attention from men?
nooooope
Sure, there's a demographic of women that's interested in *directly* shooting for "sexual attention from men".
Think about who those women are... HINT: Not the same women who are the prime consumers of high-end clothing.
You CAN'T seriously think that *high fashion* has anything to do with "sexual attention". If you do, sir, you are a lost soul.
I mean... one of the world's most popular couture/fashion blogs is called... "The Man Repeller".
Not an ironic title.
The women who *are* amenable to the "male sexual attention" kind of marketing are... to be blunt... the women who HAVE TO TRY for male sexual attention.
For instance, recent divorcées, or single mothers, or very overweight women, or or or.
Basically common sense.
__
As far as sensory marketing -- dude, I don't love 3rd wave feminism any more than you do, but, srsly, you need to
stop trying to blame EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD on it.
Sensory marketing has been around for literally a **hundred years**. It started with the first jingles on the radio, back in the 1920's.
And... as soon as the relevant technology was available, it expanded to colors (including the "blue = boys, pink = girls" thing, which was invented wholesale in the 1940's -- before that, pink was actually considered a shade of red and therefore more masculine). And then smells, tactile marketing, etc.
All driven by... technology. Not feminism.
In fact, you've got THAT arrow of causation mostly backward, too. The later waves of feminism were also mostly the result of technology. Once most domestic labor was automated... there were all these housewives with literally *nothing to do all day*. Hence... yeah.
The fact that you're fighting so hard against it proves that you just believe you're above reality. Sorry girly, back to marketing 101 with you.
And about the feminism thing? Yeah, it would be easier to try and find something else to blame for it? I mean there are daily news stories on NPR about how there aren't enough female this and thats, how female CEOs are paid significantly less, how there are only this many women doing this and how we need more. There are also more and more stories coming out blaming men for damn near everything in the media, woman cheats on man? man's fault/ he deserved it. Woman makes false rape allegation, you guessed it man did it and guilty on principle of the matter alone. A man with higher education and more experience gets the job over the man, too fucking bad he's a piece of shit and it's the glass ceiling's fault. Almost every social problem we have today is from some form of social ism, and the shit needs to be killed now.
When you force equality you only serve to produce hate and resentment, when you allow equality to happen in it's natural time you get respect and civility from everyone on the subject.
Now back to your original and extremely incorrect post. Women buy based on perceived jump in power from owning a product; what does that short game get them? Gets them a step up on the ladder above her current peers; what does that step up get her? Perceived better opportunities socially; what does those better opportunities get her? More social influence; what does more social influence get her? More attention; what do you get from more attention? The potential for better social circle and mates.
You're thinking short game here, I'm already ordering my coffee after the game because you've already been dealt a checkmate and living in an afterimage. Men think in terms of long game and long term gratification; women tend to live moment to moment.
I hate the -isms as much as you do, because I'm sick unto shit of being "the girl who ____" or "the female _____".
I'd rather just be "the ____", but, in the current climate, that's pretty fucking hard.
So, with *that*, yeah, I'm with you. All that stuff minimizes the ACTUAL accomplishments of women who... can actually accomplish stuff, without the help.
__
Yr "better mates" theory doesn't hold water, dude.
The VAST majority of the haute-couture market is... high-status married women. "Better mates" isn't a thing, and these are women who already move in the highest circles of their community.
If yr theory were true, it would predict exactly the opposite.
__
"Men think in terms of long game and long term gratification; women tend to live moment to moment"
^^ ::yawn::
Ok, I'll bite. What's YOUR fifteen-year plan? Bc you'll be my age then.
What's yr forty-year plan?
If you broke both yr arms tomorrow, do you have someone who'll come wipe yr ass every time you take a shit?
Women cheat at rates nearing 200% of that to their male partners. This rate increases significantly at the significantly higher levels of society. The men just don't care because no matter if she cheats and leaves him he'll be able to afford a good enough lawyer to make sure that she doesn't see a penny of the money he earned for the family. He knows he'll always be sexually in demand because of his wealth and the lifestyle he can provide.
Being viable for a relationship doesn't mean you're sexually unavailable.
15 year plan. Own a home, a practical beater/winter car, have my 2013 beetle taken full stage 3+, own and be working on a Dodson 280z project classic car, own and be working on a mid range luxury car. I hope to be married but believe my time of meeting a viable partner is long past. I hope to be expanding my now starting business from just apparel and promotional production to also running a coffee van. Hope to have a condo in Colorado for winter.
Since you want to play this game, what plans do you have for NEXT weekend?
And no, I don't have someone that would come to wipe my ass when I shit. My personality is completely abrasive and I'll be lucky if anyone ever decides to try to get me out of my shell again.
I'm a toxic individual and not really great for anyone or myself.
Do you like the person I know myself to be? Do you want me to go on? Because I can.
dude you're too much. where do you get this stuff?
__
"Women cheat at rates nearing 200% of that to their male partners"
^^ got a source for that? (a real source, not some mgtow blog)
__
"The men just don't care because no matter if she cheats and leaves him he'll be able to afford a good enough lawyer to make sure that she doesn't see a penny of the money he earned for the family"
^^ uh... no.
In most US states, divorce is no-fault, which actually MEANS no-fault. That means that infidelity does not, and cannot, factor into the distribution of assets (and also can't be written into a pre-nup -- if it is, then the WHOLE pre-nup can be invalidated).
And no family court in this country would *ever* distribute assets so that "she doesn't see a penny of the money". That's not a thing.
Again, I don't know where you're getting this shit, but it clearly isn't firsthand... and right now this is just getting foolish. The courts just don't work that way.
And, 26 is
"too old"? What the living fuck?
The most stable and functional marriages are those in which the husband is 3-12 years older than the wife. In other words, at least half of yr best potential wives are still teenagers rn.
__
"what plans do you have for NEXT weekend?"
My oldest son plays football, my daughter does dance, and the weather outside is fantastic.
Eh, this is interesting.
I'm just going to repeat back 2 things that you said:
1)
"Men think in terms of long game and long term gratification"
2)
"No, I don't have someone that would come to wipe my ass when I shit"
... MmmHMM.
I *see*.
You DO know that a "long game" is just... a series of short games, right?
Those aren't your plans, they're obligations to your children.
I don't have any intention of breaking my arms so I have no plan for it.
You can lose every battle but one and win the war. You can't think small if you want to make it big.
Victoria secret models are actually hella hot lol Only fat chicks like to bring em down cos they mad lmao
Or chicks who got boob jobs like the author hahaha.
Great my take, it amazes me that so many people don't know this already.
They're thin and they're almost nude.. call me crazy, but that's sexy to me lol
Are some of them too thin? Sure, but would I say NO?
"This picture makes me think "sleepover", which is fun, but also the least sexy thing ever."
- Wrong. Sleepover, two girls; lesbians; makeout -> sex
It always leads to sex. ALWAYS
Lol that is absolutely not a thing that happens at sleepovers.
(life is not porn, and porn is not life)
of course not. But in OUR heads... xD it is
@redeyemindtricks I am just rooting for your team! This take is so awesome! Thank you!
Thanks!
The “team” thing was for a little writing contest on here... I wanna say... about a year and a half ago maybe?
Invite came from a young woman I’ve gotten to know decently well on here, so, couldn’t say no. ♥️ This was a fun piece to write.
Please, keep 'em coming. It's so refreshing to see these opinions here, where many people have preconceived and polarized opinions so frequently!
Have a great weekend! ❤️🙋🏼♀️
maybe I am a girl so that doesn t count but I find them attractive (bi-curious)
but I have a wide range of what is considered attractive so...
You totally rock! This is brilliant☆♡☆
Thanks!
You ought to have a mainstream blog going if you don't already☆
ahah maybe. Thanks for the kind words bb.
Great my take REMT <3
<3 xx
Sorry, way too much. You won't find many guys willing to read ALL of that. lol
Enough people here are literate, it's ok. (: Besides, the take is purposely written so that each individual part makes perfect sense on its own.
I see you've put yr pants back on, in yr profile pic. That's good, at least.
Thanks for checking out my profile. ;)
I never said it wasn't well written, just said it was too much for "most" guys. Don't beat me up for it.. at least I'm admitting I'm not as smart as you. ;)
I don't think I've ever clicked yr profile. It's just that... *that* used to be right there in the pic.
I try not to use the word "smart" for myself... I just write about stuff I know about.
I think you should add "like me" to that.