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This is awesome and I agree, this take was really needed lately with all the hate on this site.
Thank you, I thought so too, which is why I thought we should start making attempts to get along, hoping it would be a start! :)
I think it's a great idea and you did an awesome job :)
Great take. Funny to read some of the bizarre responses haha. As if they don't believe in working in a team, and everything has to be made a total issue when its not relevant.
Meh, some of these guys just want to pick a fight to try and get me to snap so I'm one more feminist to them that reacts badly. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised that most guys here who I know don't like feminism and make it clear on other topics have been great to me and I love the civil discussion we're having. This is how it should be, talking, discussing, and getting along. Helps both sides understand things and maybe introduce new thoughts we hadn't considered.
Thank you btw! :)
I like your image choice but loved the title of your post more :)
Thanks! :)
So many people confuse being strong with being angry. That's really something I think about all the time when it comes to Feminism.
yea some feminists think they're being strong when they're just being angry
@RedHairedGirl Some of them really do :/
This has to be the best take EVER on the matter if I've ever read one. Phenomenal take, @Ozanne!
Thank you! I'm flattered to hear it :)
There are many comments that I could make about this piece. But here's just one. If you have a right to an education for example, then it means that someone else has the obligation to provide you with an education, and therefore you are endorsing slavery.
who said the teacher isn't getting paid?
@checkyesjulietx That's not relevant. Consent is what is relevant.
consent to teach? i'm not following. if you are hired to teach, you consented by applying for the job in the first place
What a weird comparison. This makes no sense, I'm afraid, and bit insulting to victims of slavery. Someone who teaches chooses their career, is making money, and can choose to leave their career whenever they want. Slaves never had (and depending what country it is, *has*) these rights, as they were told what to do and when to do it, while being abused in the process.
I'm paying a fee for a service.
With this logic, I strongly suggest you never go out for dinner as the wait-staff would be your slaves too. Also, don't bother going shopping because the cashier is a slave. Even deeper, don't buy products whatsoever from anywhere because the people who made them were slaves. In fact, some people are slaves in worse-off conditions as child-labourers, but nonetheless, all workers are slaves. Don't listen to the radio or any music because all those involved in the music industry were slaves with contracts.
@checkyesjulietx Well, indeed. But, a right is that to which you are entitled. Asker said that education is a right.
@ Take Owner But, on the contrary, I do NOT say that I have a right to be served in a restaurant or a right to have music produced for me. You say that you DO have a right to education, which means that someone else has the obligation to provide it, which means that you endorse slavery. Payment doesn't negate slavery. Slavery can't exist without payment, because humans are not immortal.
Yes, I have a *right* to education. I should not have a school turn me away because I'm a woman, yet accept men. Do you understand that difference, because that is what Malala Yousafzai nearly lost her life over. It doesn't matter what school or what program she wanted to learn something - the fact that a school offered studies and is teaching was poorly handled by extremists who believe women should not receive education.
the right to education is a basic civil liberty which must be universally provided in order to achieve equality of opportunity. your views are archaic and irrelevant to this take. do you have nothing insightful to offer to the topic at hand?
@Take Owner So, you support slavery, albeit in certain circumstances. A right to an education entails an obligation to provide an education, which entails slavery. There is no getting away from that.
Of what at root was Malala a victim? The belief that she had no right to live her own life. There is absolutely no way to justify the right of one person to live his or her own life while denying that right to anyone else. So, by promoting the fake 'right' to an education, you are in fact promoting the moral code that led to the attack on Malala.
@checkyesjulietx Why is there a right to an education? Justify it. Otherwise, you are spouting essentially religious nonsense.
Ok I'll add to my list the right to health care. Next time you go to a doctor tell him or her that you think they are slaves. You have the right to be treated with or without insurance for a life threatening injury. And you are still skirting the real issue of how women have a right to education because the same right is given to men. If they are not given this right it's discrimination.
How is Malala a victim? Because she was shot in the face, basically.
I have already answered that point. Please re-read. Thanks.
About health care? No, you didn't. Kindly copy and paste your comparison of slavery to doctors who treat people with life threatening injuries who have their right taken away to live their life. Thanks in advance.
Substitute 'healthcare' for 'education'. The principle is the same. I'm sure that you're intelligent enough to understand.
religious? what the hell? i'm an atheist. in what way has anything i have said indicated a religious undertone? everyone should have the right to an education for equal opportunity. why should the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor? we need social mobility to provide incentive for the contiuation of society. if you can't get your head around that basic concept then i am wasting my time by even replying to you
I'm sorry to say this but your comparison is a bit aloof and still after describing the difference between a boy receiving education and not a girl and not even acknowledging that it's gender discrimination, you continue with your silly, straw an argument. At this point, I will conclude to you that I will say no (ust to be clear), I don't endorse slavery. No, I won't associate slavery with a right to education, as the educator can choose a career and end their career when they choose. Education serves as a terrific service to all to receive it. Slavery is about being abused. I think that about covers it. Thanks for the bizarre input but I won't be responding again.
I was wondering if the O. O. believed in slavery because he went to school. But by the end of this conversation I came to the conclusion that he stood up for his conviction that getting an education would be supporting slavery and chose to forgo his opportunity for an education. I commend you for sticking to your convictions.
@Red_Arrow Oh my goodness LOL!! What fantastic observation. I'm sorry I hadn't caught that sooner!
This is incredible. Thank you very much! <3 there is way too much anti-equality stuff on here.
Thank you :)
I respect what you are trying to do but feminism is something im not dealing with no matter how sexy the women is
That's fine, you didn't have to even answer, but you did with respect toward me so thank you for that, and thanks for reading my take. :)
A strong, independent, confident, dominant woman is the ultimate womain for me. I tend to feel very submissive, and almost ready to accept a female led relationship with someone like that - my ultimate dream girl
No such thing as a sexy feminist.
You are not a feminist assuming everything in here is true, you are an eagletarian.
an "eagletarian" hmm.. what movement exactly is that if I may ask? lol
If I never responded to feminist questions or opinions here, and I never wrote this myTake, you would never be saying this if we had met. In fact, you wouldn't know where I stand if you were to come in to my home and see how I live and see how I interact with people. It's only until someone needs support on something will they know how I feel. I don't broadcast it in my life (outside of GaG). It's my business. However if a female friend comes to me with questions about abortion and struggles between the pressure to keep a baby from her partner or parents, or have an abortion, she'll find out quick that I am all for her having control over her own body regardless of who pressures her to keep the pregnancy. It's private and is not spoken of later on with friends. This is just an example, but if I'm labeled egalitarian because I also support fairness toward men, then so be it. I don't care about the label anymore. I defend what is fair.
@Jxpxtxr clearly eagleism duh free the eagles
I believe in eagles' rights too.
Omg me too ! 🐦 eagles are adorable!
Maybe not, but as soon as you open your mouth any attraction would instantly dissappear.
And you support women keeping pregnancy from the father? Yeah you're a feminist, maybe not quite as bad as all the others but still quite bad.
Yes, I'm pro-choice and believe a woman has the right choose what happens to her body if she decides to continue her pregnancy or if she wants to terminate the pregnancy. If your mother was gangfucked-raped by strangers in a dark alley and got pregnant afterward, would you want her keep her rapist's baby? She'd be keeping the pregnancy from the "father", the guy who raped her, after all. Is that okay with you?
(Don't have a mother? Then replace with whoever your closest female relative, friend, or your wife/girlfriend in that scenario and tell me if you feel she should give away her right to make sure the rapist who impregnated her could become her baby-daddy.)
And that can easily be abused by a woman who gets pregnant by a man who she later breaks up with.
The greed of feminists is utterly disgusting.
That doesn't answer my question, so please don't evade it. I'll ask again. Should your mom/sister/aunt/wife or whoever keep the pregnancy from their rapist?
Apples and oranges. You support women not being required to tell the man who impregnated them about the pregnency. On top of that, you support holding men legally accountable for any pregnancies that result from any sex they consent to, or even do not consent to, while giving women all the choice over what happens to the child.
A shame your mother didn't abort you.
You refuse to answer because the thought upsets you. I get it. But I wish you would. You really don't want to admit that you would prefer your mom or wife/girlfriend to abort their rapist's child, so to divert the question without answering, you make a personal insult to me that I should not even be alive. The question obviously gets to you. I'm glad it does if it makes you think, and hope you are never in a situation like that where one of your female relatives is raped and impregnated. Since I've now been insulted and it's hard for you to answer, you and I will not be continuing our discussion. Sorry that it got to you, but it's the only way to get someone against abortion to think a little bit, by hitting it closer to home. I hate to say it works every time. Each time I ask, most people get like you and don't answer and become angry with senseless insults trying to get me to stop because it bugs them. Few people have buckled and said those situations are the only times it's ok.
That question is a false dilemma falacy...
If all feminists thought like you, they wouldn't be so hated. Especially by men. In fact, they'd be the most preferred kind of woman.
boring and overdone this site concentrates too much on what feminism is or should be and honestly who gives a fuck it's not like it has much power anyways and it's not like your truly doing change in the world by calling yourself a feminist so who gives a fuck?
That's ok, if you read it, then thanks for reading. :)
probably one of my favourite takes. you articulated the points very well.
Thank you! :)
I couldn't agree more with this Take & you write very beautifully!
But you should probably prepare for outrages of angry men who did not read everything you say here properly.. I'm with you though, lol :)
Thank you :) And getting people talking is fine. I'll see how it goes and then if they become brutal I'll just end my discussion with them, that's all.
And what if I dont believe in equality? What if I think people are inherently different and so are the gender and thinking everyone is equal is just some naive and utopic view on the world?
Don't date a feminist.
I'm sort of saying this too. I've read some books on our biological make-up, and as natural caregivers, women were the ones who reared the children and cooked for the tribe. That was our job. Men's jobs were to hunt for food and protect the tribe. Why? Because they were stronger, more aggressive and naturally respected a hierarchy system to follow direction. The oldest and strongest was the leader - no challenges, no question. For women, we were softer, more caring, and patient, so rearing children and feeding the tribe was what we naturally did well. Even to this day, we still unwittingly fall in to our roles. Women enjoy being with men they feel secure with and a guy loves it when a woman can cook. We aren't so far removed from the caves. However, we are in modern times and we all have to work and make a living and adapt to a new environment, so things have changed in how we co-exist together, with men and women having to experience the other gender's traditional ways at times.
Nobody (here) is saying that women are equal to men. They are saying that they have equal rights to attempt the same things for the same compensation. If she can do the same job, then let her and do not make negative comments.
@Red_Arrow, thank you yes - now in our modern times if there is going to be an understanding that men and women are going to be woven through the economy together, if a company hires a woman only to pay her less right off the bat, then why hire the woman at all unless they are afraid of discrimination? For so many years women were laughed at and not hired as police officers. They were given fluffy desk jobs in police stations and acted as victims' services to attend a scene only to console a victim. Women have gone through testing and passed and become police officers, now only to find themselves at the core of harassment once they are hired. It's this sort of thing we can do without. The targeted hate toward women.
1000 years of technological progress doesn't magically change our brain-mechanism.
The only thing which truly has changed is that we have so much luxury that we forget about what is important while complaining about petty issues.
That most men are and want to be men and that most women are and want to be women hasn't changed though. It is actually society pushing some sort of equality upon us whom most lack interest in. It's quite saying that the more equal a country is, the more men and women lean towards typical occupations.
Also the wage-gap has been debunked a bazillion of times. Long story short: Women earn more due to their choices of different jobfields, more part-time, less overtime, more fluctuation in their jobs, wanting more flexible times, starting to work less while men work more the moment children are involved, etc. Additionally women under 30 outearn men simply due to almost having double the university degrees. This really isn't rocket science.
Well said.
media.giphy.com/.../giphy.gif
Thanks :D
Meryl Streep is a goddess... just had to point that out hahaha
@Minxxie I totally agree
love this mytake! proud to be a feminist!
Thank you :)
you are very welcome
I love Waterhouse pictures. My favourites are Circe Invidiosa, and The Magic Circle.
Oh my gosh I LOVE The Magic Circle, it's actually the very first painting that I discovered from Waterhouse that got me interested in his art! Do you also like John Atkinson Grimshaw? He is my other favourite.
There, now I changed my cover photo on GaG after thinking about Grimshaw! :)
Yes!! I love his pictures of harbours. The river Thames is not that far from where I live. I have also been to Scarborough and Whitby in the same county as I was born.
I also love Sappho by Charles Mengin.
Nice one!!
Oh I am noticing you like the dark, mysterious woman. Sort of witchcraft-themed. When I self-studied witchcraft and wicca I was drawn to all these paintings. I got out of that, then started enjoying more romantic themes. I also have a gypsy lineage in Eastern Europe , and began finding many pre-Raphaelite paintings of gypsies which I still love!
Examples from Google Images:
www.google.ca/search
LOL! I am Pagan!
Ah I see! Well, I used to be. I celebrated some trads in the Harz Mountains and had lovely experiences. :)
In that case, may I wish you Bright Blessings at Litha, the Feast of Midsummer!
Thank you, oh yes that is today!! and to you as well! :)
Thank you, too!!
So you agree that
women should split the bill on the first date?
that women should be required to register for the draft?
Did you even read my myTake? I'm serious, I did cover all of that, and had you read it you would know the answer. Traditional etiquette is NOT what feminism is about. So please, read what I wrote in the second paragraph after my "Here's What I'm Not" bullet-points. I know it was a long myTake, and I have a habit of writing long pieces, but what you are about to get in to is NOT what this piece is about. Petty bullshit about which forms of etiquette favour women is in no way what the feminist movement really is. I'm talking serious stuff like Malala, abortion, safety in the home and workplace. Not about what I expect when I go on a dinner date!
Sorry I forgot to mention that I will point out that equality for any draft should be equal, but are you not American? There is no draft anymore. :/
no, the definition of feminism according to webster's dictionary is " the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" I am American and there is still technically a draft
the key word is "social", so if an social norms benefits only women they are sexist, you are a hypocrite
@Take Owner
With this logic, there are social norms that benefit men that I don't care about, so big deal. There's give and take when men and women go out, it's not all one-sided.
And if it means that much to you, I'll answer: Yes, splitting the bill is acceptable on dates. Okay?
but do you split the bill? You may not care about it but like I said that is hypocritical. True feminism as defined by webster's dictionary is for social equality as well. It amazes me how women like you can fight for equality but then ask for traditional norms
I just said splitting the bill is FINE by me. I am not living in the dark ages. I am also not going on traditional first dates because nothing out there is traditional anymore to go to. There was a time when the guy had to call on the telephone, arrange a date, pick me up, I'd have to wear a special outfit, learn how to put a napkin on my lap and which eating utensils to use at what time, how to cross my ankles, when to get up or sit down, and what to say and not say. My god these times are just not like that. I have a traditional enough want in my femininity to want to look nice in a feminine way, make the guy feel important, and to invite him back for a drink or a second date to come to my home for a home-cooked meal. I'm not a hypocrite, so quit calling me that. I just said that equality in that case is fine, you're questioning how traditional my traditional is, and this is 2015 - so I do my best to be a soft, feminine, woman and not a hardcore, brash bitch. Make sense?
yea, would you prefer to pay for the date then? because you are using the word "fine" and in my experience women say this word when they really mean something else
I can and have paid for dates. I mentioned in a recent question that I actually preferred it that way because of there might be more feelings from one person toward another and it eliminates any feeling of expectation that buying the other person a meal means you accept them, and I never wanted a guy to feel used if things clearly didn't go the way we both hoped. I also know in etiquette that if you do the inviting - man or woman, you pay for the meal because it's you doing the inviting, asking for the pleasure of the person's company. To call someone and say, "I'd like to take you to dinner," is different from, "Do you wanna grab dinner?" These days things are so casual, and for a guy and girl to arrange a date to go Dutch is between them and their business. I personally, had no issue of paying my way for the reasons I mentioned, and I also had no issue with purchasing groceries if I invited him to dinner at my house. (Sometimes that's more expensive than paying for a date.)
I truly hope so. I also hope that you are not just agreeing to avoid confrontation because REAL feminists believe what you just said. Social equality is a concept that is rooted in feminism as well. We know because if it wasn't then you would still be cooking against your will because it was a social norm at the time.
If you're trying to trick me in to saying something, it won't work. I know who I am. I know I'm a fair person. I know I'm a loving, caring person and look after the man I love and I'm protective of the people I care about. Even in my marriage, I handle most of the money simply because I'm better at it. If my husband was better at it, then he would be doing it. We both do things in our marriage that we're good at to have the house run smoothly. I cook, he maintains. He tidies, I clean. He lifts the heavy stuff, I organize paperwork. We really run no unusual man-and-woman type of home. Our money is shared. We spend it as we need it and both don't take advantage of this.
When I dated, I wanted to be seen as a creature of beauty, but not a *delicate* creature of beauty. No man had to worry of how he might seem if he wanted to take me out but couldn't afford it, I would instead ease the pressure and suggest he come for dinner where the actual spending of money wasn't seen.
So then you do cook for him? I remember back when that was expected.
Yes, of course I cook for him. I love cooking.
this is such a childish reaction, nitpicking and ignoring the huge human rights issues over who pays for a date. To be honest I probably pay for dates more often than my boyfriend does but I don't nitpick and throw a fit over it, it's not that big of a deal. If I suggest to go to a fancy restaurant it wouldn't be fair of me to say "hey we are going to this fancy place and guess what you have to pay!" going to a place with a higher price point was MY idea so I expect to be the one paying or to at least split the bill. I enjoy spoiling my boyfriend he bought me a brand new iPhone 6 for Christmas and I bought him an entire new wardrobe and videogames we don't complain like "ohh I spend TWELVE DOLLARS MORE on your present than you did on mine!! this isn't EXACTLY equal!" that's not what feminism is about! It's about everyone having the same opportunities and rights. It's about ending systematic gender based human rights violations.
@Minxxie Men are required to register for the draft, how is that not a huge human right issue?
it is and I never said it wasn't.
@Minxxie thank you that is exactly what I was trying to say to him too, and it seems almost every feminism post on this site resorts to someone getting bent out of shape over pulling a chair out, giving up a seat, opening a door, and paying for a date. My point about the serious issues and the rights for women do not belong with this debate. People should simply make etiquette topics and go run wild in them than compare them with Malala, abortion, and equal pay. It's insulting to the victims of all these things to compare them to etiquette skewed in women's favour when people's lives and livelihoods are at stake, and a common act of courtesy has to be questioned in order to get the message across that this isn't what feminism is about.
It is a serious issue because it is a microcosm that define masculinity. Men are seen as less masculine by the vast majority of women if they aren't chivalrous, you two are the exceptions.
I have never heard of such a thing. I've heard of people, men and women alike, be called jerks if they slam a door in someone's face.
Let's be honest.. these are uncertain times where money is a big deal for people more than ever. Unless you have established a good career, some very fine men out there, who are excellent people and would make wonderful partners would not be able to afford a date. Women get this today. If they don't, they're being idiots. If I didn't get this I wouldn't have married my husband who didn't have a dollar to his name when we met. Our expectations on who does what on dates is out the window. We don't question a guy's masculinity because of something beyond his control with his bank account! Masculinity is much much more than that. Women are being ignorant if they think this is what it means to be a man, being able to pay for a pizza and a movie.
Yet, so many women do
I'm going to suggest this then, for you on GaG. Instead of posing a question on GaG that targets feminism, why not ask a question about "etiquette" and get input from people how they feel about men who truly do want to impress, but feel it would be fair and practical to split the cost of a date. You might have some women saying exactly what Minxxie did about the rule of thumb is asking, and being in a position to pay. But how about the actual approach of planning an outing without it coming across as having this expectation to pay? You might be surprised that more women would be easy going with that rather than being hung up on traditions.
This is why older women are so much more attractive :D You married a very lucky man.
Or maybe you're just cougar bait.
And every woman is set to become an older woman eventually...
Aww thank you :D
Maybe I am cougar bait. As long as they act somewhat like this nice woman, I'm perfectly fine. I'm sick of all the mind games and constant tests that go along with trying to start a conversation. It's nearly impossible to meet people nowadays without some sort of catch. Women eventually learn what this one has and that's what makes them more attractive. I don't think she could have said it any better :D
And you're quite welcome. It gives me hope that there are more women like you. :)