Women Think They Should Approach Men? I Don't Believe That

[ManOnFire]

For a lot of years I’ve always been against women making the first move on a guy, or at least I never really favored it. But now I don’t really care one way or another or make a big deal of it in my life anymore, though I personally always have and always will make the first move because that’s just how I am. I like to approach and be playful and flirty and get numbers. If you wait for a woman to do it, you’ll never get your shot. However, if a woman did approach me and suggest doing something or letting me know she’s interested I don’t think it would really bother me anymore, but I certainly am not going to sit around and expect that.

But hearing women nowadays advocating or talking about how they can or should make the first move? I don’t believe that, and I don’t think most of them really believe in it either.

Women approaching men...

Although they want to make it seem like they’re becoming more common or empowered to do it, most of the women you hear talking about how women should be allowed or should make the move period have really never even done it, and never will. They just say it for the sake of “equality.”

Some did it once, and others have done it just to be able to say that they as a woman made the first move, and some had success with it while others really didn’t. And then others will say it doesn’t really matter that either way is fine, but deep down still prefer a man to approach. These are the fine lines in the situation. Ultimately most of these women advocating it have and never will approach a guy first.

And honestly? I sometimes question why a woman would. It often seems to me that these kinds aren’t exactly trying to seem empowered or confident, but because maybe no guys are giving them any play, or the guys they do like aren’t making the move, so now they’re getting frustrated and ready to go out and do it themselves under the guise of “women can do it too.” I will however say that if an older woman is approaching it probably is more sincere because they generally do have more confidence, know what they want, and would be more qualified.

But it’s really not that simple for women…

Some women try to say they don’t approach men first because guys would like that too much, an egotistic presumption. The biggest reason women don’t approach men is because they fear looking stupid or being rejected, and probably more than men. Even the ones who say they don’t approach because they prefer the guy to do it have still said if they did they’d be afraid of getting turned down. And they’re judging the guys who are shy or scared to make the move, but are overthinking their own chances as women a lot more than those guys are.

Let me just be completely real here: women really do have bigger egos when it comes to sex, attraction, and relationships with men. They believe that men, sex, or a relationship is or will always be available to them so they never need to make any first moves, but subconsciously they fear they’ll have more to lose if they did: their pride. Because it’s difficult for them as women to ever believe - or accept - that a guy wouldn’t be into them, especially if she was one who’s very attractive. The bigger the ego, the harder it hurts when things don’t go as expected, and the more puzzling it is.

Rejection…

Although women think men take rejection harder, I don’t believe this is really true, and I think they often try to put it more on men to cover their own insecurities about how they’ve reacted or would react if a guy rejected them. Have there been plenty of guys who got angry and bitter at women for it or thought of them as a bitch? Certainly. But the vast majority of men already know that being turned down is always a possibility, and have even been taught to expect it. And when it happens, most of us deal with the disappointment for awhile but always go back to approaching the next woman, and the next. That’s just how it is.

Women however, do tend to feel the burn in their own very harsh way because they believe that their existence is enough to bring them success and have been taught that it works this way. They are pretty much the only ones you will ever hear saying a guy must be “intimidated” by her for why he just wasn’t into her, as a self-righteous way of saying ‘the problem is him not me.’

While men can be bitter or stuck in self-pity for being rejected, women more often have a dangerously arrogant mindset that when a guy isn’t interested it has to be because of him or his own insecurity, not because she just lacked appeal or did something that turned him off, or because she actually needs to improve herself to be more attractive in character or personality.

And although these “incel” guys are popular nowadays, the vast majority of people who are brooding and worrying about not finding anybody, being single forever, or not being attractive enough are still women. Not men.

Should women approach men?...

People can do whatever they wanna do, and I’m not really opposed to women making the first move anymore but I’m also not a guy who’s excitedly into that or waiting for it to happen either. If a woman approaches, that’s fine, but in reality it isn’t this ‘becoming more common’ thing going on like the media or female bloggers and vloggers are trying to convince us of. Most women are still not approaching, and that isn’t exactly wrong either.

#GirlsApproaching

[CubsterShura]

In the place where I live women don't make the first move cause it's something that guys should be doing always! Women making the first move are considered as shameless, characterless, immodest and what not. They are badly judged. Heck, women are badly judged for expressing themselves here. Shyness in women is very much valued in our culture here.

I strongly believe that women should be able to make the first move if they want. I never really liked a guy to the level that I felt the need to make a move. Even if I do I won't be able to make the first move cause...
1) Bad history. I've been badly bullied by guys and I also had a terrible ex. I've been very different from my peers so I could never be close with them. I'm am outcast.
2) For being different even I never wanted to ask a guy out anyway. Nobody is my type.
3) Upbringing. I already interact with the opposite gender very less and when I do I stay modest. I'm too shy to talk about my ~feelings~. 🙊

Only if I wasn't treated like an outcast and had moments of an entire CLASS of boys making fun of me, maybe then I would be more confident. This is just an extension of my struggle with socializing. I have nothing against who I am. I am a good person and I look good.

[ManOnFire]

I know how it is for women in your country, yeah. It's tough.

[CubsterShura]

That is the kind of thing we need to get rid of. It's not common for women to make the first move, yes, but when they do they should not be judged at all.

Equality isn't about half of the times guys will do it and half of the times girls will do it. It's about not having a biased attitude towards either gender making the first move or giving a proposal.

[ManOnFire]

I agree, but in your country there is much male dominance so women approaching is gonna be a hard pill for them to swallow. I think you'd need Aziz Ansari for president to get that going lol.

[CubsterShura]

It won't be easy. I admit it's hard to get Bangladeshi people into a better change.

[Starbers999]

I agree - I've always wanted men to make the first move but I've never been asked out in my life. I can tell some men find me attractive but they never ask me out - maybe I don't look approachable or I am too different from them or maybe no one finds me attractive and its all in my head! Except one time where I thought the guy was trying to ask me out but turned out he had a girlfriend so no idea what he was after. Question is, what if a girl always waits for guys but no one ever does? Do you just sit waiting forever like me or go approach yourself first? I don't blame women for doing it but I bet it's not their preference, it wouldn't be mine.

[ManOnFire]

Well, if no guys are approaching then I see nothing wrong with a woman taking things into her own hands if necessary. So you've never had a boyfriend?

[Starbers999]

Think I just worked out why I never get asked out. I'm not very approachable if you don't know me. I am open and friendly with people I feel 'safe' around like married men or men who have girlfriends (which is probably why they tend to crush on me more and I end up in silly situations😕). I'm kind of single by choice to be honest, I choose to keep a distance for religious reasons and this is probably why it has never gone any further than just attraction. No, I've never had a boyfriend - which a lot of people find odd. Haha

[ManOnFire]

Then in that case I know exactly the same kinds of women, and much of it does have to do with their religious differences because of their culture. That would be something you have to work out. Don't take offense, but places like India and the Middle East have put women in bad, restrictive mindsets about interacting with the opposite sex. Even for me as a guy and especially an outgoing American guy I've experienced the way they try to be distant and think you must be trying to get them just because you're talking to them, when I actually am not really attracted to them, and their behavior towards men is a large reason why, yeah.

[Starbers999]

I think I know what you mean but I don't think a guy is trying to get with me because he is talking to me. I meant I don't have a boyfriend because I keep people at arm's length (not just men) that being my personality and because I am trying to follow my religion in my own way (when ir comes to men but I'm only human). In fact, the fact that I am happy to interact with the taken men more freely tells me it's not culture and religion but me just finding excuses not to get with guys who are too available. I know what you mean about being restrictive about interacting with the opposite sex, I think, like most girls, I don't have a problem with doing so with men I am attracted to, just not with men I am not because I wouldn't want them getting the wrong idea. So in a way, it's not religion and culture. Also, we are all different, you can't assume all these Indian or Middle Eastern (I'm not either by the way) think you are trying to get with them.

[ManOnFire]

You feel better with taken men maybe because you're afraid of single guys. I don't really know. Maybe you don't know how to act with them or something.

Religion and culture does have a lot to do with it in my experience. These women are often trained to see men as trying to have sex with them or as potential predators, or that interacting with men in very warm, friendly, comfortable ways is some form of impurity or inappropriate behavior.

So where are you from then?

[Starbers999]

That's true about religion etc but I think it also protects women too. E. g. Islam asks men and women to lower their gaze and asks women to cover up so men don't see them as objects and like them for who they are as a person. If clothes were not an issue, then every time a woman complains about getting cat called or harrassed on GAG, people wouldn't ask what they were wearing. Also, drinking alcohol is forbidden in Islam and girls going out a lot late at night (because of the kinds of things that happen after dark) is culturally frowned upon. This one is more about individual choice but this mindset you talked about trains us to think about self preservation. There are regular reports of lone drunk women getting raped in the UK - how often does this happen to Muslim women? People think it is all about oppression, it's about protection. Not all men are good and we don't know their intentions - so we take precaution against those types but as a result, keep the good guys away too.

[Starbers999]

You seem to have a very good insight into the correlation between women's behaviour and religion/culture and seem like you are talking from experience? I live in the UK but my background is Pakistani.

[ManOnFire]

I know a lot about other cultures and I even observe the way women behave so I guess I have some amount of understanding. The fear of sexual assault thing is one I hear a lot from Indian and Pakistani women, and I guess that would be because of what happens in their own countries, but in the UK and even America, most of those women are not ever even raped by us and when they are it's from their own Indian and Pakistani men. Very, very few black or white men would ever try to do that. I'm black and I would catch the most hell for even trying to act sexual with women from your region.

The way I see it personally is that it's too much to keep up with all those kinds of religious rules and concerns about attraction or if looking at a man or woman will invite something. It seems incredibly stressful and internally oppressive. I myself am "Christian" and grew up being taught all these "Christian" rules for men about avoiding lust and temptation and looking at women. It oppressed me.

[Starbers999]

Black or white men might not do it to Indian or Pakistani women but they do it to their own women - or whichever woman was available at the time, usually someone they know. Slave masters raped many a slave woman and if Pakistani and Indian women were as liberal and free (usually even when they are not), it would happen to them more too (by men of other races)- although not if they don't find them attractive or stay away from them in the first place like you mentioned.

On a separate note, most Pakistani women (not sure about Indian) stick to their own men anyway so black and white of any country are out of the question for various reasons from lack of attraction from both sides to cultural and religious differences. Even of they did, they would have all the obstacles from family etc. So yes, you'll probably get a hella grief for your troubles so not worth it for anyone!

[Starbers999]

By the way, for me personally, the world is meant to be a prison for the believer (it's a temporary abode and life passes quickly and it is a test for us). I know what you mean about restriction from religion and finding it hard to reconcile rules with what we want to do. However, reason i haven't acted on anything is because, despite everything, the religion gives me more peace than any relationship ever will - I would be lost without it.

[ManOnFire]

That's what I'm saying, it happens from your own men not us black or white men. I do also know how your culture is about sticking to your own men, yeah. Which is okay. Though in America some of your women are in relationships with us, though when they are it's mostly white men. Some idea that white men are more attractive or superior or something.

The prison idea is true, and even taught in Christianity. But for me I just can't live my life forever in restriction, especially having grown up sheltered. I have a difficult history.

[Starbers999]

The whole world has been brainwashed into believing that white is good and the best and black is bad and inferior. It is something I fight against all the time in my own community. I am neither dark or light - I am in between so it's not like I get any grief over it personally but it still annoys me. I get that people have preferences - I have my own so shouldn't call people out too much (but I do anyway). Every ethnic minority is self loathing and most have issues with skin colour. If these Pakistani women normally go out with white over black because they are supposedly superior then would you agree that this is also the reason that 99% of black footballers (mainly Premiership) reject their own women for white? I keep seeing dark skinned black men with blonde white women and think about how that must confirm the message that black is bad, that given the choice even black men wouldn't pick black women. By the way, I don't mean to cause offence to you. It's just an observation of mine.

[ManOnFire]

Yeah, I know how bad they dislike dark skin in your part of the world. I even used to have a Nepali co-worker who told me how her people think she's not beautiful because of her dark skin too.

Black men like those just dislike black women and want to make a show of how they can get white women. I myself personally prefer to date women of other races, but not for those reasons. It's because generally white, Spanish, and other kinds of women tend to connect with me more and have similar interests. When you're a black guy like me who likes rock music, Star Wars, and knows about other things and cultures outside of black society then you get your own people thinking you're a "nerd" or even white. It's not often that I meet black women on the same level as me, but do meet white and other kinds of women with my same knowledge and interests.

[Starbers999]

I feel embarrassed for other people to be honest (all races) you get everyone looking down on dark skinned people and people feeling better about themselves because of something no one has control over. I have worked with white women who felt white people were superior, repeatedly talking about blonde hair and blue eyes being the epitome of beauty and like everyone else is lesser, especially ethnic minorities and black people. Then the same women finding it odd when white men show an interest in women of other races. There are good and bad, attractive and unattractive etc in every race - try telling that to the rest of the world.

I totally get that because I can be similar, in that I sometimes feel like I have nothing in common with other Pakistanis. As long as it is not just about looks etc and like black is lesser. It still makes me sad for black women though, it seems like the only race where the women will see a black man they are attracted to and wonder if he likes black women.

[ManOnFire]

Wow, you've known white women who find it strange for white men to like other races of women? Very curious, since white women generally don't hate it when their men date outside their race, while white men are known to hate it when their women date black men.

Yeah, it's never about thinking my women are inferior. Because in many ways black women have plusses that other women don't, we just don't have common ground in personality and interests.

[Starbers999]

With white women especially, it revolves more around perceived beauty and it's not always said but definitely thought and felt. I can only go by my personal experiences and this is no way against all white women. There have been at least 2 occasions that I can think of when young attractive white guys who have been younger than me have shown an interest in me and the white women have either not believed it, thought it was one sided or been horrible to me because they felt threatened. The first was definitely because of race because of their obsession with their own race being better. The second time, he was from a very posh background (his father was a peer in England), and his colleague became very jealous - I got a feeling race and class had something to do with it but I might be wrong.

It works both ways, plus many a black woman will tell you that black men don't like it when they see their women with white men. Maybe it's just people thing, where they feel rejected by their own.

[ManOnFire]

Definitely news to me about white women.

Yeah, I've heard of black men being upset about black women choosing white men, though I don't think it's nearly as common as black women hating it when we date white. For me it doesn't bother me if black women date white. In fact I actually think it's great because for a long time black women didn't want to give white guys the time of day. But now they're more open-minded these days and to me that's a good thing.

[Starbers999]

I think black women are in a very different situation from other women so I can see why they would resent it more. They are generally seen as the least attractive race (for females). There are people out there who see no beauty in Kerry Washington and Naomi Campbell and think a plain generic blonde is more attractive. Black women have to be something really special to get any attention. The majority of men stick to their own race or prefer others but not black. This generally leaves black women with less options so when a significant amount of their own men prefer other races too, that leaves a lot of single black women and a lot of understandable resentment. Most Pakistani men like Pakistani women (or other similar looking women), if they didn't like me, it would not be a big deal because a lot of white and sometimes black men find me attractive too. Same goes for East Asian and Latina women. Black women don't have this luxury. I'm 100% team black woman here😊.

[ManOnFire]

Definitely true that black women are seen as less desirable, which does bother me as a black man because many of our women are attractive and I would have sex with many black women. Just a relationship wouldn't work.

True about people putting generic blondes on a pedestal, cuz a lot of the thin blondes they worship are not even special-looking to me.

[Starbers999]

It's nice we agree on these points.

Do you think we would get on IRL? What with me thinking you were out to get with me because you were talking to me and fearing sexual assault?😊

Or you, thinking my religion was oppressive and that because I was Pakistani, I lived under a rock and never heard of the Foo Fighters, Arctic Monkeys or knew who L S Lowry was? 🤗

I'm just 'taking the Michael' by the way. It was nice talking to you.

[ManOnFire]

Ahahaha. Plenty of people from the Middle East and Asia know those groups. But I prefer Zeppelin, U2, Van Halen, and Stone Temple Pilots.

Take care😉

[Aynsof]

You make some good points
I do wish though that we in general could dispense with all these "games" in flirting and dating etc.
If a woman likes a guy she should speak up
Not because it is empowering or even for equality's sake (though I favour that) but we are not living in fairy tale land where the Prince has to say dragons and what not to win the princess and half the kingdom
It is a degrading process to men and women alike

[ManOnFire]

Kinda true, yeah. And I think that's why the idea of women approaching is less bothersome to me now. I can understand some element of it.

[lazermazer]

I didn’t not like this one at all.

I think everyone should be able to approach and be approached.

You are basically saying that women should remain like items on the sale,
Only the buyer can choose.

This is just shallow thinking.

[ManOnFire]

That isn't at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of these women are not living up to their own advocacy. And although I personally prefer to approach I never said women COULDN'T make the move.

[lazermazer]

You implied that they shouldn’t.

[ManOnFire]

Where did I imply that?

[lazermazer]

“Rejection...” the whole part.

[ManOnFire]

That was no implication that they shouldn't. It was saying fear of rejection is why they don't.

[coachTanthony]

Men will always do the approaching because it's more than just APPROACHING it's the rest of it too. If you are a woman and made the first move and you are perfectly fine with it... are you now going to take the lead in the relationship? Will you be picking him up for the first date? Bring him some flowers? Pick up the tab on every first date you go on? Pull out his chair? Open the car door for him? The Answer is NO.

You will soon grow tired of taking the lead and simply SAY F*CK this shit. Especially if that were the only way you would ever be able to get a man to go out with you. This is why today's man is tired and looking at our chivalrous past as NONSENSE. You have no EMPATHY.. and that is where it starts for these men.

[ChronicThinker]

I've done it myself multiple times, though I did notice that some liked it and then found it too forward, while others plain thought it was too forward period. It seemed to make them uncomfortable, I assume because it is so rare. Most women can just stand around and men will approach them eventually, so I guess it just made me come across aggressive.

[ManOnFire]

"Most women can just stand around and men will approach them eventually"
- My point about the ego.

[ChronicThinker]

Yes, I don't deny it. I think women do get an ego about it. I'm just saying I'm one of the few women that actually do mean it when I say I approach lol.

[Benedek38]

You mean when you are not being groped and having dicks rubbed against you in a bar that you thoroughly don't enjoy BECAUSE of guys who approach you all the time, and wish to be purged of said guys.

[ManOnFire]

@ChronicThinker You're a lucky one then. I think ultimately women have bigger egos than men because deep down they know being attractive or having a body is all they really got going for themselves a lot of the time. Yeah, there's personality and body language that factors in, but with men we can be appealing in many different ways. So I kinda think women have so much sexual ego as a way to make up for what they're lacking.

[ChronicThinker]

@Benedek38 What? Dude, you're fucking weird, for one lol and secondly: I didn't say anything about a purge. But yes, I would really prefer it if men didn't sexually assault or grope me. I don't get why you think that's a problem. Yes, when I was single I did enjoy men who politely approached me.

Problem?

[Benedek38]

You just come off a bit hypocritical, saying that you approach men, and it makes them uncomfortable, when you yourself complain about men approaching you all the time in bars, to the point where you want them out of the clubs entirely.

[VIVANT]

this seems very unnecessary, if you like a person go ahead. i think the way you entitle it 'women think they should approach' is setting up a debate about obligation when this is not an issue fir anyone. no one has to do anything no one has to date or get people they want. if you want a person you will do something -or you will not.

i do not like how you set it up that women should not think they should AND women lie when they say they do. you are just firing on both sides and shutting everything down. you claim you no longer mind but you seem very offended and threatened by the idea.

you have not asked any woman anything just here asserted how they really are. none of what you say here is about me but you have covered y sating that bc i 'lying' sop how can there be any discussion here.

this is very much to silence women.

women should not approach and anyhow they dont if they say they do its a lie. this is honestly bullshit. i mean that politely as possible.

i neither feel i am owed not being rejected nor am i so flimsy i can not handle it. I notice my approach is different to men who ask me out. they do so when sure i am interested-though i was not. IF i ask a guy out -and i DO- it is bc I don't know IF he is interested of course i know i might be rejected. if i ask then i have accepted this as a possibility.

and its OK. if i get rejected i can move on. who wants to wait around wondering. well some people but not myself. id rather a hard no than a soft maybe.

I ask for purely information purpose. not to stroke my ego but to get on with my life. really irritates me when guys avoid answering bc they are offended i did it before them, or bc they think they bare some great obligation to 'handle' me delicately-- i've experienced both and dislike both equally. its obnoxious. i'm a person thats it.

it amazes me that guys who get hot and bothered can not see it from a practical perspective. if they ask a girl out i presume they want an answer. Well SO DO I. thats it. Why turn it into something else.

by the way i like asking guys out bc if i ask i know exactly why i'm doing it. and i enjoy getting things done. when they ask i can never be sure, and some take too long and I do not enjoy ambiguity. i will not reject a guy im otherwise interested in if he asks but im going to ask if im interested. and i prefer it esp bc if he reacts badly it tells mea lot.

Anyhow i'm an actor- rejection is part of the game, its no big deal. its not the part i worry about.

[VIVANT]

when i ask i concern myself with being clear so if he assumes incorrect things i can at least know i tried my best, but in my experience guys get melodramatic when you ask them out. not all luckily. but it is tiring.

[ManOnFire]

Stop, stop, stop. You're overcomplicating this to the max, and I'm not about to sit here and take you apart over it either. A lot of other people here are getting the point. I think it just bothers you and you're reaching really hard to make an argument and you're only babbling.

[lazermazer]

Thank god someone here thinks like that.

[Djaay]

Initiating your visability and showing your availability to a guy and letting him decide his preferences regarding you , is a proper way to express. And visa versa. Women deciding to take stance on the idea of a feministic masculine stance towards being aggressive with the idea of conquer and quest concernig approach towards men , will ultimately fail. Most men aren't into zipper control. What's left in the male pool of guys after that... have at it. But this is primarily what the asker is getting at.

[VIVANT]

@Djaay
The asker is jumping to conclusions and ittibgcall women in one category. I never advocated any such thing as you indicate and I am sharing what is my experience since I am a woman and my sex is being pigeonholed

[VIVANT]

#ASKER
since you mentioned you used to disapprove of Women asking men out , in intersted to know why you did.
It seems like you still have an issue with it but are covering that up by thinking Women don’t want to do it or can not.

I can of course be wrong that is why I say it seems to me. Bc I can not prove it it is just an impression. But it does make me very curious to know what the issue you had with women asking out guys was. Not the details of how you think they do it badly. Just straightforwardly do you want to hang out. Why is saying that bad for any gender it better for any other?

[Djaay]

Vivant... I was just iterating the way women can be. Don't get angry at me. Like I said , men dont like zipper control... especially me. You mentioned you're an actor... try acting a little more kind.

[ManOnFire]

@Djaay Dude, the only acting she's probably done is TV commercials and college theater.

[lazermazer]

@ManOnFire
I know you now, don’t ask me how, got multiple sources.

I’m disgusted really. Stop altering yourself to get girls here, this is not dating site.

[ManOnFire]

@lazermazer I don't know what your "multiple sources" told you and I don't care though I'm 100% sure they don't know what they're talking about. This is a sex and relationship site, so that's what I'm writing about. Not picking up chicks. Like the dumbest I've heard in a long time here.

[JohnFrost]

The whole idea with making the first move is go after what you want. As a men im not waiting until a woman approaches me but i love it when they do. Because it shows she is confident and independent. She is not waiting until a guys comes to you.

waiting for someone else to make you happy is foolish. You are responsible for your own happiness. I dont think women should always make the first move.

I do believe that there a lot of women that say they should make the first move and then not do it. Or make excuses when they do and fail. But thats also true at the male side. Getting rejected is hard if you commit for something and its natural for your brain to want to defend yourself.

As a men i also see a lot of women in my life i like but dont approach them all. I dont approach someone that looks busy or is having fun with a lot of friends or when there with guy friends. That doesn't mean i dont like them.

Finally i think it can be harder for women to make the first move and fail because its not the norm. A guy getting rejected is not a big deal because all the guys have been rejected some times. But if you are the only one in your girl group to make the first move you also are the only one getting rejected. So there is nobody to tell you happens to everybody.

[Anonymous]

After reading this I disagree with most of what you said. The only thing that I do agree with is a lot of women say they are willing or do ask out men, but reality is most don't. But the fact that you think women shouldn't ask men out I couldn't disagree with more. I think more women should. Fuck that's all most men want from women, to be more honest with their feelings and actually say what they want. That's what women asking ouy men is. The other way is fucked up and confusing for us me. I hate the mind games and playing hard to get shit that comes with them not saying how they feel. In all honesty enough of that is actually a huge turn off. Women actually asking men out changes that. It makes them state how they feel and let it be known. Doesn't matter if the guy is interested or not, at least now it progress one way or another instead of having a guy or a girl just thinking WTF the other is feeling. As for your reasons why women react to rejection differently and why they don't like asking men out, that is complete bull shit. What you described is true for men too. We feel that stuff just as women do.

I don't like this myTake just for the fact that it seems like it was meant to deter women from asking men out. And I don't like that and actually want more of it not less. So women if you like a guy have the courage and just tell him how you feel. Since nothing ventured is nothing gained. And that guys like this guy is the rarity and most of us actually do want you to be more open abut this, how you feel and about taking a chance.

[ManOnFire]

I didn't say I think women shouldn't ask men out. My point is that most are not really real about it and that they fear being rejected. I also noted that I PERSONALLY am not one of those guys anticipating a woman making the first move but ultimately am not bothered by the idea much anymore and that women can do what they want.

Very simple.

[Anonymous]

I'm not really sure what quantifies "the first move". Was it literally the asking out of a date? Or first person who broke down to say 'hi'? Was it the first flirty comment? The first flirty smile to check if they're interested too? Most people DON'T walk up to a stranger whom they don't know, and whom has never made any sort of eye-contact or gesture of approachable towards them - men or women. It's usually some degree of BOTH people interacting and signal sending well before the subject of dates are actually brought up. Men TEND to be more verbal about what they want - "are you single?" "are you free on Saturday?" "would you LIKE to come with me?". Women TEND to be more non-verbal. The higher octave voice, the hair twirling, the coy smile, and seductive wardrobe choices. But, like I said, it's a mixed bag varying from person to person. How could anyone discount 1/2 of the interaction entirely as irrelevant when that's at least in part why they decided who was 'open to the idea or not'?

[ManOnFire]

Somebody initiates the conversation or interaction as the first move, and that is mostly men. When we see something we like we usually go over and try to strike up a conversation, get interaction going. That's how it works.

[Cartouk]

Really though can it called "empowerment" in this case? Because approaching someone you can't be sure will be interested in you or find or find you attractive by it's very nature gives makes you vulnerable and gives the other person the power to reject you.

[ManOnFire]

Dude, that is very very true.

[Anonymous]

Women should approach men but your right we fear public rejection and ridicule. This happened to me the only time I ever asked a guy out and the rejection was brutal whereas guys just brush it off their shoulder. I just subtly let guys know I'm available and drop hints that I'm intrested, like fishing bait on a hook.

[ManOnFire]

Lmfao.

[Benedek38]

"whereas guys just brush it off their shoulder."
LOL
Do you seriously think guys just brush it off? It crushes us. I know that I have been to concerts where I had the time of my life, I asked a girl to dance, she brutally rejected me and ridiculed me, and I had to get my coat, and go out to sit down a little and sober up, because I felt like I was kicked in the balls. But yeah, I brushed it off... with a deciliter of vodka.
Anybody surprised men commit suicide 4 times more often than women?

[Shyguy2001]

@Benedek38 Only a deciliter? not at least half a bottle? I mean i know some people that get piss drunk after they get rejected. Were not great friends they are friends of friends but still.

[Benedek38]

@Shyguy2001 I had to get back in there to listen to the main concert. You don't just waste away an Alestorm ticket :-D
The vodka was just the fuel, the most pit was for making me feel better.

[Shyguy2001]

@Benedek38 Awwwwwwwwwww yeah Tear it up haha.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 I've seen guys get rejected and ask another 10 girls out.

[Benedek38]

So? That's just a testimony of how tough they are that they could get over it. They were probably used to getting rejected on a daily basis. The first 5, 10, 20 hurts like a motherfucker.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 yet still able to keep going. Guys are defenitley tougher than women emotionally, at least most guys are.

[Benedek38]

Maybe a bit, but definitely not enough to justify never trying. If women can work full time and earn as much as a man, they should be able to take the responsibility of asking someone out, and the "pain" of being rejected.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 a woman can ask a man out if she wants but with free will and the ability to choose most choose not too.

[Benedek38]

And that's what I am asking - aren't you afrain that most men will say "fuck this, why is it only me doint the brunt of the work? I won't ask women out, if they are interested me, they'll just come to me"?
Because that's exactly what's happeneing with the MGTOW movement. They essentially chose to refuse chasing women.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 no offense but have you seen some of the guys in the MGTOW movement? Most are decent guys but have a long way to go until they are dateable, they aren't refusing to chase women it's a case of some woman has hurt them or they haven't had any luck chasing women or a minority are butthurt that women don't just give them the sex they think they are entitled to on demand.

[Benedek38]

Their intentions are irrelevant. The point is that they are tired of playing the dating game with a handicap, so they opt out of the game.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 again the guys you are talking about are the ones who lose when they play the game and like any game there are winners and losers.

[Benedek38]

Not necessarily. I have spoken to plenty of guys who were successful with women in their life, but got tired of chasing them all the time, and went MGTOW. The portrayal of MGTOWs as sad virgins is not an accurate one. Sure, they are on average not the most successful guys, but they are usually not drawn to the lifestyle due to necessity, but curiosity and exhaustion.

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 if these guys were succesful with the women in their life then surely they wouldn't be tired chasing as they'd be done chasing?
Not all MGTOW guys are unsuccessful with women but the majority certainly are and most are butthurt.

[Benedek38]

"if these guys were succesful with the women in their life then surely they wouldn't be tired chasing as they'd be done chasing?"
So you married the first guy you ever had a date with?
Don't kid yourself, women nowadays often aren't interested in settling down until they are in the late 20s. And often neither do guys. So they look for short term relationships, or hookups.
>THAT is what they get tired of.

"Not all MGTOW guys are unsuccessful with women but the majority certainly are and most are butthurt."
See, there you go with assumptions. You don't know that. Have you ever talked in depth with people on a MGTOW forum?

[Opinion Owner]

@Benedek38 women today are more choosy with perspective partners and honestly we have very high standards in our prime attractive years it's when we start closing in on our 30s we realise that our standards are too high and that all the good men we had been are becoming less intrested in us so we realise we must settle. But not me, when I found a good man I married him.

[newbie2015]

I think there are psycho social reasons a man should make a first move that are based in instinct. In addition, it sets a dynamic for the rest of the relationship. If you chase a guy, the laws of physics suggest you will constantly have to do this or inertia results. As a female i want a man to put forth effort. I reciprocate of course, but i don't initiate, because I know what constant initiation does to a female ego. It all comes down to hunter gather mentality established by our long ago ancestors.

[villageidiot]

That's called "pop psychology". It is a myth

[Anonymous]

I've approached men before and a lot of them said that i was too forward and didn't like it. one of them even said that he didn't think a woman should do the approaching and its a guy thing.
I've been rejected everytime i approached a guy and they were all different than one another. haha I've had bad luck i guess.

[ManOnFire]

It's because it's out of the ordinary for a woman to do it and causes wonder of her intentions. A difficult truth is also that if a woman is making a move on a guy, even for sex, there can be some kind of motive behind it. For other women they really are sincere but I don't think it's entirely wrong for a guy to get a little wary.

[villageidiot]

Those guys are total losers

[Abe90]

I've been curious about this topic. I've never been approached by a single woman that was attracted to me. It was always a staring game until I walked over. I would be impressed to see a woman walk up to a guy and at least strike up a conversation or very much as him out.

[ManOnFire]

Staring games are what I've experienced a lot too, yeah.

[DevilsAngel]

It all depends on the woman. Not all women are comfortable with it and not all mind it. The idea behind that women should ask men out if they are interested is about empowering them and giving them the support to go after what they want. And who is stopping you from making the first move? I have asked men out and sometimes I got rejected but it didn't bother me. You win some and you lose some. Try to be more careful with your words and how you present your thoughts because this post makes you sound like men should make first move and women should wait.

[ManOnFire]

"Try to be more careful with your words and how you present your thoughts because this post makes you sound like men should make first move and women should wait."
- The problem is how you perceive it cuz that's not even what I said. I said I personally like to make the first move and that women are not really serious about doing it.

[DevilsAngel]

All I said is be careful. Its not just me many have problems with your take. I dont care what you think but being careful never hurts. Again whether women are serious or not depends on the woman and the man too.

[ManOnFire]

People on GaG tend to be very selective readers and have comprehension problems because I talk about some of these things on other sites and people there understand exactly what I'm saying. The main demographic on this site is millenials with limited understanding so I don't take them too seriously.

[DevilsAngel]

Or perhaps people here are more open and opinionated and not agreeable kind. Its your opinions your business.

[Djaay]

The more aggressive a woman is towards approaching you , the more she's implying herself upon you for her own reasons as you eventually become a second class tool she conclusively wants to use for herself. For the easy guys out there , here's your perfect storm...

[ManOnFire]

That's kinda what I think too.

[ericclayton]

I wish women would approach men more often, especially since I'm a shy dude. But after 50 years of social change, that's not going to happen if it hasn't by now.

Women have a lot less confidence and aggressiveness, and most prefer that we do the hard legwork.

[ManOnFire]

And either way is okay. If a shy guy needs a little help that can be okay too.

[girlreps]

In my experience, i did the first move, and it was going smoothly till we had great months in relationship. And the fact is, he never make first move towards women because his pride and fear of rejection. I mean both women and men are same we have that worries. Luckily, that i am not kind of traditional woman, it's okay to make first move, it's mean you are confident about yourself, rejection only spices of your journey. But, must carefully when you approach man first, because some are would gladly to take advantage of you. Be elegant in your way when you trying to make first move, don't be so open with who you are, don't have sex at first time, you can express your admiration genuinely to him, and don't trying so hard to find any words if the conversation turn off then you might leave first.

[Celtero]

I thought I'd be pissed by the end but I was pleasantly surprised.

I'd feel like a hypocrite if I'd complain about women not approaching more. I've been approached and hit on extensively by a woman, but she was too ugly for me.

One of these days I'll get the courage to approach, at least just to say I've done it.

[lilaqua]

I’ve always approached, guys don’t really do it any more, and if they do it’s not actually legitimate but more of an extension of cat-calling. I’ve been rejected more than I’ve been accepted, which hurt but you get over it, in reality it doesn’t bother me too much because I kind of expect rejection in reality. Under my impression, if I never approached I’d still be currently single and virgin, so much for “waiting around”.

[ManOnFire]

Whatever works.

[bubble_tea]

I think women should do it at least once so we can appreciate the courage it takes for guys and be more kind when we let someone down.

[TomasLyy]

I agree, or maybe just do it when you like someone

[bubble_tea]

@TomasLyy Of course. It should burn. 😂

[ManOnFire]

@bubble_tea Interesting response.

[VIVANT]

funny bc a lot of guys do not appreciate the courage it takes when women do it. often they get upset :)

[bubble_tea]

How else would you learn? lol

[TomasLyy]

@VIVANT Who, and where? When you say a lot of guys i doubt it's actually concrete, and more like a generalization to support why girls don't act this way

[bubble_tea]

@VIVANT I don't think the guys I've approached were upset. They didn't make a scene, unlike some of the girls I used to know who straight up broke up in laughter because some guy thought he could talk to her.

[VIVANT]

i have directly experienced this as have my friends. otherwise i would not have mentioned it. certainly not making an excuse not to do it I've done it over a decade. by the way boys deal with it better before high school ;p

i have never ever humiliated a guy or got upset i just say no if im not interested. no drama necessary.

[bubble_tea]

@VIVANT What did the guys do or say that made you think they were upset?

[ManOnFire]

@VIVANT Do tell. Because even if some guys were/are upset, I doubt it likes the storms women will stir up for being turned down.

[VIVANT]

Get angry throw a fit or demand to be the one to ask

[TomasLyy]

@VIVANT The only reaction I see from guys is sadness and heartache. They maybe will get depressed for a few weeks but never have a fit

[ManOnFire]

@TomasLyy Exactly what I'm trying to tell her. I think she's really just exaggerating to try to make it look like guys are that feeble.

[bubble_tea]

@TomasLyy She meant the guys were got angry and threw a fit, when she and her female friends asked them out.

[bubble_tea]

Lol, maybe some women do, but I was just glad I could move on.

[Anonymous]

Nice take.

I’ve seen women take cheap shots at guys who turned them down (favorite insult is that he’s “gay”). I remember I had two attractive girls overtly hit on me at a bar I worked at. I liked them but I had a responsibility of working the door. They wanted me to take a shot with them but if I did I would likely get fired. In retrospect it might have been worth it though.

Later that night after closing my female coworkers openly mocked me for turning them down saying I must be “gay”.

That really pissed me off. They can say that shit about me but I can’t say that shit about them if they turned down a guy.

But considering how the metoo movement is screwing everything up I think wen are going to be forced to approach men more and more nowadays. Guys are worried about being labeled a “creep”

[JSmuve]

I tend to agree. They say they want to approach guys but that's just to come off as being progressive. It's like paying on dates. They say they don't mind splitting or paying, but they much prefer the guy to do it. Always have. Always will.

[ManOnFire]

Exactly.

[VIVANT]

You guys are making things up. It’s not a fact just bc you believe it.

[ManOnFire]

@VIVANT If it really wasn't true then even many of the females who commented wouldn't be agreeing and having their own experiences.

[VIVANT]

THEY ALWAYS

This is the lie. Anyone can do something at some point. Your using absolute language which makes it wrong.

[ManOnFire]

@VIVANT I don't think you really read this whole Take, did you? Or at least read it extremely selectively.

[VIVANT]

Why are you making pronouncements about “women” you seem intelligent you must know there is no behavior that everyone shares and people have very different experiences in life.

I gave how things work and why I do what I do from my perspective. You ant have a perspective that all blank do such and such. Where is the thinking in that?

[JSmuve]

@VIVANT Yes, anyone *can* do something at any point. But do they want to? Do they prefer to? Ability and preference are two different things.

[VIVANT]

Also I do not hear anyone advocating anything. Just a lot of people telling Women not to do what it is a mans job to do. Other people saying who cares who. But I really never see it as a “ cause “. I would think if any person is doing something just to make a point it goes badly. Same with guys who ask women out bc it’s supoosed to be a guy thing but their heart is not in it. So they do it badly and are resentful. In that respect I may agree with you and if your point is towards Women who make a point to do it just to do it I suppose I can sgree in certain ways but there are still far too many assumptions here for me to b comfortable with there being no underhanded agenda/ conscious or not.

And really even IF some women were trying to make a point... if eventually everyone felt comfortable asking people out bc they like them and not bc if the gender well I think that’s be great and does it really matter how we got there?
Also there really is a lot of negativity surrounding women askin

[VIVANT]

It really adds challenges to something taht should be very simple for those who already see it positively to ask someone out why make it negative?

It’d be better if we just encouraged each other to go for it instead of trying to prove its inauthentic. Most people feel fake doing things that are new... then it becomes familiar- that’s life.

Anyhow there is no way to prove women are or are not really into asking guys out it what the motives of the women who do it are. Nor can you prove the same with men. Do we need to?