Would you agree that an abortion of twins is a double homicide?

[Anonymous]

Here is an example video below:

Updates

+1 y

What if a woman aborted every 3months until she ran out of her own eggs. And then decided to buy other people's eggs and continue aborting a 100 times until menopause. Nobody can stop her the law says it's okay. Then she brags to people that she is a serial killer, is this fair?

Updates

+1 y

If someone doesn't view a fetus as life it should be nothing more than getting a clump of cells like a tumour removed or liposuction or appendix out.
The fact that the woman in the video is emotional and crying especially to this extent is evidence of guilt that she views a fetus as life and decided to abort her twins anyway.

[forthright]

It's only homicide if it's done unlawfully. But certain things like this shouldn't be unlawful if done properly. The entire purpose of the law is to prevent injustice from occurring. And if done right, an injustice can't occur on something not even capable of consciousness.

[Asker]

the definition of homicide includes lawful killing of a human as well. Women refuse to accept it but why feel the guilt later. The reason abortion clinics even exist is because women would otherwise go to extraordinary lengths to kill their unborn baby or give birth alone and then kill. Nobody likes finding a fetus in a public toilet or baby in a bin.

[forthright]

Our words get in the way when talking about complex matters like this. They come attached with them very biased meanings. In this case, it's biased for good reason. It doesn't feel good to be murdered or to have someone you love murdered. But I do believe that some homicides can be justified.

When we take a step back and analyze the state of living, we see that life is a painful thing. It's filled with suffering. And by having a baby, we'd be consciously subjecting another human to suffering. I believe that creating life is more of a sin than destroying it. So although I personally don't think we should be reproducing at all, people will do it regardless.

Better that they do it when the human is at a young age than an older one. And the more it's legalized, the fewer people will have to be freaked out by seeing others sad attempts at trying to prevent future suffering...

[Asker]

id tend to agree with you but then if every person had this viewpoint villages and thirld world countries would die out. You live with whatever means you have, you grow your own food, ration, walk to places to get water etc etc. The abortions however are occurring in civilised priveledged opportunity equality based countries.

[forthright]

I don't know how to solve poverty & shitty structures within other countries. But I do know that stopping abortion in our own won't help us do that. When people have kids when they aren't ready or wanting to then they make shitty parents. And shitty parents tend to produce kids that aren't good for society's growth.

[Asker]

perhaps, but nobody knows if they'll make a good parent until theyve experienced it. Many have kids just to claim benefits anyway.

[forthright]

That could be a good argument for pro abortion tbh. I believe we need to have an abortion as an option now more than ever since people have become more promiscuous these days. The decline of the church & strong religious following came with it more and more relaxed morals. So now that we don't have fear keeping people from procreating so much, the wrong people are hooking up with and dating more of the wrong people.

Babies are expensive & they limit people's potential. I've seen first hand just how much babies limit people. I come from a family where all of the women have been with many deadbeat guys & had many babies. They'd be more sucessful in life if they hadn't. Ofc they sadly mainly didn't want abortions, but if they did, it was nice that it was always a legal option.

[Jer3312]

What is your opinion of the case of Nathan Sutherland? His crimes were against a person not capable of consciousness.

[Halibut]

@forthright I'm not an anti-natalist. It's my opinion that there is no reason to create new life unless it assists existing life, and I believe it often does... and I think that the pleasure of life can make up for the suffering of life. That said, I love that you're thinking outside the box.

My view is more that... if the parents want a child, and that child will be born into a decent life, it probably makes sense to have the child. If they don't want a child though, there is no reason to bring the child into the world.

[nella965]

@asker

so where is the guilt for giving birth to kids only for it to be malnourished, abused, without maternal love, neglected?

she may be experiencing guilt, but she may think its the better thing to do.

[iBeowulf]

Women are the most prolific mass murders of all time, boys.

[Asker]

wow that's insane, so many? 😕

[iBeowulf]

Our Selective Service immune, Affirmative Action enabled, female voting majority doesn't want people to know, so abortion isn't listed as an official cause of death, conveniently.

[Asker]

I wonder if psychopath women deliberately get pregnant and abort just so they can feel the enjoyment of killing.

[iBeowulf]

Who cares at this point? The stack of bodies could be seen from space.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Echo chamber, MHO

[t-8900]

makes you think that every pro choicer should be wearing Mao, Stalin, and Hitler T-shirts everyday.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Again, you're just an echo chamber. BIASED MHO

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf That's like saying pulling the plug on permanently brain-dead comatose people is murder. That's not murder. Anyone who thinks it's murder has very poor reasoning skills... which is unfortunately an enormous percentage of the population. Abortion, if it occurs before about the 24 weeks when fetuses may be able to experience pain according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, involves zero of the harms that are the reasons murder is typically defined as illegal. After the 24 week point, abortion may involve one of the harms that is the reason murder is illegal: pain. That said, that pain also needs to be weighed against the unpleasantness of the birthing process and whatever circumstances that were the reasons the parents were considering the abortion for.

Another reason why abortion is not murder is because in murder, something is forcefully taken from you: your life. In abortion, nothing is forcefully taken away that would not already be forced by mother nature.. If the fetus is not forced to die, it's forced to live. Either way the fetus has no choice.

Deer hunting is closer to murder than abortion... because at least with deer hunting that's not typically done to benefit the deer, and it will involve pain, and deer-hunting really isn't done to assist the deer... whereas I think a strong argument could be made that, if we really wanted to focus on helping children as much as possible, the solution could be to encourage everyone to get more abortions so that only the parents who want children the most have kids.

[iBeowulf]

So you'll say anything to justify murder if women are the culprit... got it.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf Abortion isn't murder... and if you wanted to focus on nothing except protecting children, you might argue that we should create a state-mandated eugenics program that mandates the abortions of every parent with low I. Q., a history of genetic problems, or who are impoverished. That would be horribly tyrannical... but unlike abortion bans, at least it might help children.

[iBeowulf]

You want to run to big daddy government for everything, like a girl, but you don't support a government ban on abortion, because it's not your brand of big daddy? Classic woman logic.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf You have the maturity level of a small child. You totally ignored my long, logical post to you that we could have had a useful discussion about. You like to insult women (which makes you trash) too. Go away. Come back when you're ready to have an adult conversation using logic and reasoning and not your bullshit about abortion being murder, which it's not, for reasons I've explained.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 Pro lifers are the ones essentially mandating that the government inject incurable diseases into people's children. That's what laws banning abortion do. That's because if a woman is pregnant with a developing fetus with downe syndrome, and they get an abortion, and have another baby later, that's essentially the same thing as the original fetus being cured of downe syndrome. Opposing that is opposing the best miracle cure we have.

Now, I'm not encouraging abortion in that statement. For all I know the powerful parental instincts that might prevent a parent from even thinking of getting an abortion might make a kid's life wonderful regardless of whatever state they're born into. But using that "miracle cure" needs to be a legal option.

[iBeowulf]

Maternal genetic testing for various genes that lead to birth defects are a thing. Any reason is good enough for you, because you worship women. We don't want your input and it's no longer up for debate.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf I don't worship women you nitwit. I'm just not a chauvenistic twat like you who spends all their time pondering how horrible they are... which they're not. They probably have harder lives than men on average, because of the menstreul cramps and greater safety concerns, by the way.

Also, yeah... maternal testing for various genetic problems are a thing. ultrasounds happen well into the second trimester, from 18 to 20 weeks. That's when birth defects really can be detected, from what I understand.

[t-8900]

@Halibut untrue. Women have an easier time in society than men do by a long shot. You are short sighted in thinking menstrual cycles and child bearing are enough to tip the scales. Things might be slowly changing in some aspects but historically men had the short end of the stick. Go ask any poor sob that was forced into a war he had no business being in. Ask any man who was expected to take a bullet for a woman or selflessly sacrifice himself for her. Ask the men that fought to the death to win a chance to mate with a woman because she was the prize. Ask the men that toil in the fields, dig the ditches, work 100 weeks in mushroom houses. Women aren't the ones doing he back breaking work and the never will. And don't even get me started on th fucked up alimony/custody/divorce system, the rape support groups that refuse men who are also victims entry, or the way domestic violence is treated. And let's not forget the #BelieveAllWomen bullshit.

[NicoletteXO]

@Halibut thank you. Correct.

[NicoletteXO]

@t-8900 OMG been overdosing on the MGTOW websites, now, have we?

[NicoletteXO]

Just reading this thread again. Guys - let me tell you, Halibut is the Man here. Intelligent, logical, empathic, clear. The rest of you are complete sissies. Worse, you're misogynistic sissies. Unfortunately you got owned. Deal with it. You lost to a man who is simply superior to you.

[nella965]

just imagine if we didn't abort those 15 million people. i can guarantee that unemployment will sky rocket. there simply aren't enough jobs for that many people.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 which sex has it harder will inevitably depend on the person... that's the point. I'm not saying one sex doesn't, on average, have it harder than the other. I would rather be a man than a woman though. I would never trade anything for the greater safety concerns.

Ask the women with abusive husbands. Ask the women who countless chauvenistic bastards are accusing of wrongdoing for getting abortions... and totally ignoring the men who got them pregnant. Ask the women constantly being sexually harassed. Ask the quite large percentage of women who may have been sexually assaulted. See what I'm getting at here?

[Halibut]

@NicoletteXO thank you for the compliment.

[Coulis]

I agree. There is a difference between aborting at 6 weeks as opposed to 6 months however. People want to keep the aborting but don't want to give up the unbridled sex.

[Asker]

people hide their conscience but they break in the end.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Echo chamber MHO

[Halibut]

shame on you for your barbaric, vicious mentality. No... abortion is not murder.

[doopayo]

Lmao I know that meme. And no, because it doesn’t meet the correct description for one

[Asker]

Why was she crying about it then? 😭

[Rachelspiks]

Asker - the answer to that is at the 0:08 mark, when she says that "You can get out of the gutter". The other girls started crying because she understood what she was going on about, about how hard it is to live life on the street. She wasn't crying because of the abortions she'd had.

[Halibut]

@Rachelspiks yes

[lightbulb27]

I have no idea and choose not to think about it because that just causes distress and hopelessness. I choose to stand back from the legal aspect and address the human emotional aspect, something that I can influence in myself, loves ones, and others to build values of life and help others to heal so they can have life and pass it on.

I'd rather deal with that individual and their issues so that they become a better person, parent and heal the messed up emotions before they develop the disconnect with their unborn offspring and want to kill them in hopelessness. The guilt trip didn't help. The twins had no chance without mom anyways. Mom needs healed.. set free of the curses projected upon her, then the children can survive and thrive. It's not a color but a cultural issue and trap, she's expressing it. Lets not forget about dad either. We need Men, we need more Men, we need strong families to survive. Country is being torn up. Caveat... this show is obviously about drama... so take with grain of salt, but it is real for many, so fair enough.

Knowing women better now, all this is such a huge warning on this web site you'd better be careful who you are messing with, mating with, dating and fooling with. A lot of people are playing with grenades and don't know it.

"The wages of sin is death". In this case, two people died before they had a chance to breathe. That's a human tragedy. What can be done is to take this, and heal the hearts of as many as possible.

[Halibut]

It's not a tragedy. Death, before the organism has an understanding of death, is not. Nothing is lost, because the organism doesn't care about death. Oblivion is a neutral condition to it... not something to fear like it is for us... unless the organism is at the point of being capable of experiencing pain, perhaps.

[lightbulb27]

@Halibut whose to say who those two humans would have been, their contribution to humanity, or maybe one is the Dr. that would save your life, die in a war stopping a terrorist from killing your family, nurse who holds your hand at the end of your life, or your wife... that would never be. It's devaluing a life that is started. whether that life can experience it, is just part of it.

[Halibut]

Who are you to say that I would not have been better of non-existent? You don't know me. You can't know that. It doesn't de-value my life to say that I'd probably be better off replaced with some genetically engineered superhuman. That's okay. That's just the way things are. That doesn't make my life any less important... nor the life of anyone with Downe syndrome and congentical heart defects I have advocated for the abortion of in the past. They're here now, as am I, and any costs of that are sunken and no longer matter.

That said, those costs didn't necessarily need to be paid in the first place.

[lightbulb27]

@Halibut are you saying you have no worth and are useless? Was Stephen Hawking useless? Not that he wanted such illness, and some lives can probably seem worse than death. but not right to project that onto an innocent. It isn't fair for me or anyone to judge the worth of an unborn. Some lives greatly alter human history in a good way, some make a difference to even one persons life, and may never know it. That is one aspect of life.. living, having hope, love... fill a persons day with love, that is fulfilling. that's the good part of life. It's up to the parents of the offspring though, so I don't tell people what to do and leave it their choice. without a mother and father, chances of navigating the world are low. maybe a Dave Thomas type person who is adopted to a good home. Parents are needed for those offspring.

[NicoletteXO]

What a stupid and exaggerated hypothetical. Show me one woman in the history of humankind that has done what you are suggesting. You can't because there are none. The vast majority of women don't do this for kicks, honey. And for those small minority of women who are genuinely irresponsible and careless, I don't think they're going to magically become a fabulous mother just because you force them to gestate. If anything, you're setting up a situation where a child will be born into utter destitution. So do you really care about "life" or do you care about controlling women's choices and bodies?

[Halibut]

No... it's not homicide, and society really needs to stop thinking that way. Fetuses can't experience pain before 24 weeks pregnancy. Even if they can... we'd be talking about death with pain, but without any of the other traits that make it so horrible for adult humans and born children. There is no knowledge of death. There are no social bonds broken. There is no breakdown of society if it's legalized. There is no loss of control... etc.

Perhaps the situation you mentioned with a woman aborting thousands of her own fetuses should be legally punished somehow... if it were to happen... but it will never happen.

Obviously, aborting twins should not count as double homicide. Fetuses are either forced to live or forced to not live. Either way, they get no choice in the matter. Abortion therefore doesn't necessarily take anything away from them.

[exitseven]

Somehow there has to be a real non political decision made regarding exactly when a group of cells becomes a human being. It is above my pay grade but I know that it should not be up to Biden and it should not be up the the Pope.
The way it is now, people can get an abortion ten minutes before they go into labor. I think that that is murder. And if it is twins then yes, it is a double murder.

[Halibut]

How many people do you think are going to get an abortion ten minutes before they go into labor, for reasons that aren't extremely important... such as the mother's healthy? I'm thinking not many. I therefore do not think that's murder.

[nella965]

Having a few homicides is ok as long as it makes the world a better place. I don't think its fair to give birth to babies just for it to have a terrible miserable childhood. A bad childhood leads to kids to grow up as a criminals, abusive parents, mental illnesses. Having too many kids can also lead to unemployment for everyone else.

Abortion should never be seen as an amazing thing. But you gotta do what you gotta do in order for the overall good.

[hahahmm]

"Having a few homicides is ok as long as it makes the world a better place." -- well, if you kill the moms it's fewer than if you let them kill the unborn. If you want to talk about the math. Anyhow, most of these kids have bad lives because the mom was dumb enough to have a baby with a guy who was obviously a horrible choice (either because he said so or he showed it to be so).

[nella965]

@hahahmm

Aborting a baby at its very early stages is less hurtful and painful than murdering a real life human who can feel. We are talking about something so underdeveloped that it’s not even considered a human yet. This thing never knew it was alive and cannot feel.

[nella965]

@hahahmm

because you gotta realize , even if you do not abort this baby and let it out into The real world, this baby be fucked either way. A mom and dad that doesn’t want it. Even if they do raise it, I’m sure the kid won’t be appreciated. Is it fair to bring this kid out into the world only for It to live a terrible childhood? A terrible childhood is what develops future criminals , murderers, mentally ill folks, abusive parents

[nella965]

Adoption is no guarantee that this baby will be treated well. All throughout history , orphan kids were adopted by families to used as slaves , maids , to serve the husband and wife. They weren’t treated well. This is why adoption agencies are so picky on who to give babies to. They don’t just hand out kids to absolutely anyone.

[molonski2]

Its moral homicide thats for certain..
A friend of mine aborted twins years ago , and she never ever recovered from the pain..
Those babies didn't ask to be there , they had no choice. No matter how its played out , you will pay big time , emotionally the female will never recover.
Yes , its certainly moral homicide , just like sanctioned killing , but again she"ll just never recover , there is always a price.

[Halibut]

no it's not... that'll depend on the person. Some people will just look at things the logical way and think, "death cannot harm an organism that can't experience pain yet and doesn't understand death yet."

[molonski2]

Beyond doubt , its murder of 2 beings..
There is a price to be paid for those deaths and its one in which ( certainly the female ) will NEVER recover from , mark my words , ask the woman in 20 years.
Morals down the gutter stuff

[Rachelspiks]

Why don't we call in an expert, an actual homicide detective, on this here?

Lt. Columbo. Nope, even he can't figure it out.

[Floppy2112]

I couldn't watch. It's too disgusting to me. Yes, it's obviously a double homicide so long as homicide is defined as a human life taken by unnatural means. And it's wow depressing. And no, I wouldn't knowing deal with a female who has had an abortion.

[Halibut]

No it's not... because there are different types of humans. There are, for example, brain-dead comatose humans who have pretty much everything in common with fetuses in the early stages of pregnancy. It's legal to pull the plug on them for some of the same reasons abortion is legal.

[Floppy2112]

@Halibut Uh, well that would be called mass murder. I can't say I am down for that. Mouth-breathers are everywhere. Nothing we can do about that.

[Anonymous]

It isn't homicide because they aren't protected by the law. It is killing 2 human lives, though. There is no debate on the idea that, even if they aren't born yet, they are living. And the type of life they would be categorized is human. So it is ending human life. And in the case of twins, it would be ending 2 human lives. But this does not make it homicide.

So, it would not be double homicide. If the unborn were granted rights and protected from being killed under homicide laws, then it would be a double homicide. And this has nothing to do with anybody's beliefs, natural rights, etc. It's a matter of how the law is written and the precedence of the interpretation of that law.

[Interstate]

I graduated High School in 2000. It was about a year before when the Supreme Court (with the help of the Amish Community), ruled that a fertilized Ovum IS a fetus.

And yes, the irresponsible act of murdering two human lives IS homicide.

[Halibut]

no it's not... abortion usually involves zero of the harms that are the reason why homicide is dealt with so harshly. Just think about it.

[Daniela1982]

If a baby in the womb is not considered a person, then why is someone who killed a pregnant woman charged with a double homicide?

[Halibut]

I'm not sure they should be... but that's not particularly important to me, just so long as they're convicted of some kind of crime.

They harmed the mother greatly through hindering her plans and dreams for the future. They may have also prevented a child from being born into as ideal of a life as they could have been born into, through messing up the mother's plans. Also, it's in society's interest to protect the most vulnerable, and we want to make sure pregnant mother's are extra-protected, because of how delicate the developmental process of a baby/fetus/whatever is in the womb.

That said, if there was no way to know the mother was pregnant... I don't think it should be a double homicide... but I'm not going to complain a lot if a murderer gets a few more years.

[Halibut]

Edit... what I should have said is that my statements apply to harming a living mother in a manner in which her developing baby dies in her womb and why that should be illegal. I figure it might make sense to tack that onto the murder of pregnant women too because the father might lose something additional too... his plans are also lost.

The law makes sense... and it also makes sense to simultaneously not legally treat the fetus in the womb as a person in every way... because it doesn't think like most people do, or feel like most people do. It's something very different than an adult or toddler, and so it needs to be treated differently.

[Daniela1982]

@Halibut I do like what you said about the father losing his child too. I'm sure most fathers-to-be would call the death of their unborn baby a murder.

[Halibut]

I don't know. I've never been a father or wanted to be one. I don't know what that'd be like.

That said, I think it's probably obvious that any man who believes their wife getting an abortion means that their baby was murdered by their wife is a monster who deserves nothing but disdain from society.

But yeah... I'm sure for a lot of fathers the loss of an unborn child when their wife is killed is an extra source of pain.

[Interstate]

@Halibut Just because the baby can't do everything because it isn't fully developed and born yet doesn't mean it isn't a person.

In your first response to Daniela, you said;
"They may have also prevented a child from being born into as ideal of a life...". But yet you are arguing that a fertilized Ovary isn't a baby? Halibut... you contradicted yourself there, dude.

[Halibut]

@Interstate it doesn't matter whether or not a fetus is a person. Arguing over that would just be semantic bickering. What's important is that death cannot harm a fetus in most ways it can harm most born children... especially before the 24 week point at which fetuses seem like they might be capable of experiencing paint. That means we should treat them differently... for their benefit as much as everyone else's.

[Coulis]

Because the woman was not seeking to abort the baby. So the murderer has terminated the pregnancy without consent of the woman. While I am pro-choice, I needed to point out why it's a different kettle of fish.

[ThatNoUVAtYourEyes]

Would much rather not think about such things, but now that you mention it - yes.

[Asker]

thank you

[Halibut]

No it's not. Abortion involves zero of the harms that are the reasons why homicide is typically dealt with so harshly. Homicide is illegal because it steals life away from people who very much want to live, causes them pain (typically) and if we legalized it, society would collapse. it severs social bonds and the threat of it causes fear.

None of that occurs in abortion, except for possibly pain, seemingly late into the pregnancy after 24 weeks... keeping in mind that about ninety percent of abortions happen in the fist trimester, about 12 or 13 weeks or something.

[ThatNoUVAtYourEyes]

@Halibut it does, once you happen to experience it over the strange bond that gets formed when you are involved.
Women use abortions chiefly to hide they fucked someone else with no condom or prosthetics, got pregnant. And zhey ate alarmed about Texas because you cannod do a peternity test until week 10 of pregnancy (7 at the earliest but it is unreliable then)
Are you promoting falsified paternities, standing at arpund 30% at present?

Google it

[Dragonpurple]

Something I've always found odd, is abortion is legal, yet if someone attacks that woman and kills the babies... its considered murder.

Shouldn't it instead be charged as forced unwanted abortion against the woman's will?

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

I don't know what to think, I don't think so who knows?

[MrPickles13]

No because the view that abortion is murder is not only wrong but damaging to so many lives. Those anti abortion laws are just going against human rights. We are an educated society backwards laws should not be there.

[MrPickles13]

In response to the emotional point you made that can be via a lot of things such as the circumstances that lead to the decision or even just the hormonal changes her body is going through.

To the other point.. yes a woman could do that but all she would be doing is wasting money buying eggs putting herself through a lot. And if she wants to be a serial. killer getting abortions isn't the way to do it as it's not murder. It's. A choice everyone woman should have and removing this service is unethical backwards and about 100 other things I could say.

[XSea-Sonic]

Abortion’s federally legal in my country (so I’ll answer assuming it applies to the US). So no. Get to know Roe V. Wade.

[cth96190]

Abortion is murder, so the murder of two babies is a double homicide.

[slatyb]

Homicide is the taking of the life of another person. A fetus is not a person. For at least the first 24 weeks of gestation it is an unconscious bit of protoplasm.

[Asker]

That's assumption, not fact. Also the use of the word twins implies 2 persons.

[slatyb]

The lack of consciousness in the first 24 weeks of gestation is a scientific fact.

[Asker]

unconsciousness because of brain development in the first 24weeks cannot be disproved. Babies can also come out stillborn (not unconscious). So therefore a soul entering a body can not be disproved and entering the body from the moment of conception can't also be disproved.

[msc545]

Yes, that would be a double homicide.

[Asker]

thank you

[Halibut]

No it'd not a double homicide. Abortion typically involves a grand total of zero of the harms that are the reasons why homicide is dealt with so harshly.

[Anonymous]

If you can put it in a freezer at -160C for 6 months and they don't die?

IT IS NOT A BABY.

[Halibut]

I like you

[hahahmm]

People don't abort embryos.

[Opinion Owner]

Do tell us then the exact moment the embryo stops being an embryo.

[John_Doesnt]

No, it's a trip to the doctor's office and it's none of your business what happens there.

[Bee-Hatch]

Ahh 3 questions in and already there's a contender for dumb but judgy question of the day.

[Asker]

answer the question if you aren't dumb

[Anonymous]

women who get abortions are the ones who should have been aborted.

[Halibut]

No, that's you. Ideally, someone would have aborted you. The women who get abortions are fine. They're not hurting anyone except organisms who generally don't care that their existence ceases, and so it does no harm to them.

[abc3643]

What if they are conjoined twins?

Of course not.
To be a victim of murder, you first have to be born...

[Asker]

So a killer could stab a pregnant woman in the womb and not be charged with murder if the unborn baby dies?

[abc3643]

That's the way it should be. (*) Some states have differences of opinion.
====
(*) I don't say this callously. It's a fine point about a gray area that both science and the law aren't adequately able to define... when does life begin? And what qualifies as "important life".

For instance, if you pick your nose, you've just slaughtered thousands of living cells... Human cells. Your cells. Did you commit suicide? You killed "you" after all; should you be charged with thousands of counts of murder for picking your nose?

At what point does a clump of cells have meaning?

You asked about the pregnant woman being stabbed and that kills the fetus - I won't say baby because the baby is not born, so I use the medical term. If she is 8 months pregnant and the fetus is stabbed and killed, yes, that's terrible and maybe there should be some kind of charge... (Maybe there should be a dedicated killing of fetuses charge in the law.) But what if the stabbing kills an embryo or an unviable fetus? Meanwhile, what if the stabbing didn't hurt the baby at all, but, in reaction to it, the woman has a miscarriage?

I am not looking for answers to these questions, but I am raising them to illustrate that things are not nearly as black and white as people want them to be.

[Asker]

I think all of thoses can be blanketed the moment life is created. A soul never got the chance to experience earth. Nobody should have the choice to say no, there's options to give up their baby to a loving family.

[abc3643]

1. "[the] moment life is created."
You don't know when that is because we can't even properly define what life __IS__.

2. A soul is one of two mutually exclusive things.
A) A soul is an incorporeal thing that does not exist in the physical universe. The problem with that is that a soul could not then be embedded into a body. Furthermore, the soul could not react with the body because the body is physical. But, If a soul could be embedded into a body, then...
B) A soul a physical thing subject to the laws of the physical universe. That's problematic because then the soul is not an independent entity.

>>> What I outlined about is something in philosophy called the Mind-Body Problem. I did not know that in Spring 1984 when I first wrote about it, but, as a physics major then, I wrote a paper titled "On Physical Determinism" on it that got an A. I also didn't realize it at the time, but I was using the Socratic Method which, in a way, I am doing here. You might be interested in the 2008 book "13 Things That Don't Make Sense" by Michael Brooks. In the book, it discusses some of these intractable problems such as the mind-body problem. Chapter 5: Life and Chapter 11: Free Will are relevant here.

But, I am going off on a tangent...

The mind-body problem is a currently unsolvable problem. In fact, it cannot be solved at all without a fundamental shift in our understanding of the nature of existence and the nature of scientific experimentation.

(more)

[abc3643]

These fundamental problems - what is life and the mind-body problem - are at the heart of why reproductive law is in a quandary and so problematic.
We cannot possibly -... it is impossible... to know about souls and "life" in a way that is satisfactory from a legal or scientific perspective.

Furthermore, laws need to be able to be enforced and enforcement means being able to sense and measure things or events that happen within the physical universe.

This is why reproductive law now is in the way it currently is...
We can't measure souls, but we can measure things like biological processes and determine things like the viability or a fetus or if there's a fetal heartbeat etc.

So, any law involving fetuses has to be based using such measurable definitions.

And murder is an example of that: Per Black's Law Dictionary - the universal standard among the legal industry - murder requires the human to be born.
https://thelawdictionary.org/murder/

[Asker]

That was really unnecessary. You have totally understood a soul is waiting in line and now has the unfortunate reality that it could lose that opportunity because of a woman's selfish victim act. That woman herself was once waiting in line and was not entitled to it, she was given an opportunity to live on earth and dissapointed someone else. Being compassionate thinking of others before one considers their options is something that is lacking in this world. How would you like it if you were naturally selected to be a twin and your mother said no? Well you wouldn't be able to think because you were killed.

[abc3643]

If a soul is really "waiting in line" for a human body to come along that is like a passenger at a bus stop waiting for a bus, so that soul can just wait for the next body to come along.

[Asker]

You'd like to think that but what if you were chosen at that exact second and you've only got just enough energy to travel to that fetus. You know stillborns are a real thing too, I imagine that was a soul who was met by an obstacle and ran out of time.

[abc3643]

Look I am tired of this discussion because nothing of it is verifiable. It's like arguing about how man angels can dance on the head of a pin or how much pain does a man feel when giving birth to a unicorn.

The fact is that you cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a soul let alone one with the characteristic that you'd want it to have: free will.

Thus, I will let HAL-9000 speak for me as I mute this question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA

[Asker]

Stillborns are proof of souls or rather that one didn't have a soul. Goodluck and goodbye 🤣

[Halibut]

that inability to experience earth could be seen as as much of a gift as a curse.

[EyesOfGod]

Until its outside of a womans body its not my problem.

[Anonymous]

If you're guy make sure you use a condom so you don't have to deal with abortion, child support, STDs, the new Texas law today and more. If someone is breathing on their own in the world by themself, of course it's homicide, but a 6 week fetus in Texas today is now a live person that can live by themself?

[Asker]

Even a born baby can't live by themself, sorry not understanding your point of view

[Aiko_E_Lara]

It's not even a homicide in the first place. So Zero times Two equals Zero. No homicide is done.

[SamE86]

I think it's better to have an abortion than to have a child and not take care of it.

[Asker]

you didn't answer the question

[t-8900]

its better to have the child and put it up for adoption that snuff out it's life for the sake of convenience.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 I disagree. I think it's better to "snuff out" the child than put it up for adoption. It loses nothing from being "snuffed out" because at the time of its "snuffing out" there is no one in existence being "Snuffed out" who cares about the fact that they're being snuffed out. Adoption, however, can potentially be harmful to the child if it goes into foster care rather than a good home.

[Daniela1982]

@SamE86 Why not just give it up for adoption? As it is many people have to adopt babies from other countries, and at more expense, because there are not enough babies in the US to adopt.

[t-8900]

@Halibut your comment makes my stomach turn. This is something pro lifers will never agree with under and circumstance

[Halibut]

@t-8900 Well you need to accept that it should be legal. I don't care what you do yourself.

[Halibut]

@Daniela1982 because adoption is typically the inferior option to abortion... unless you know there's a family that wants the child. Even then, yeah, a family gets a kid and they'll be happy... but there's also the question of, if fewer people had the option to adopt babies, might more older children toddlers and such and older, be adopted, rather than growing up in foster care?

Given that death cannot harm an organism that can't experience pain from it and that doesn't understand death, abortion before about 24 weeks appears to have no disadvantages, whereas giving birth and giving it up for adoption has potential disadvantages... and definite disadvantages for the mother, in the sense of the unpleasantness of giving birth.

[t-8900]

@Halibut I don't need to accept shit. That's something you leftists can't seem to tolerate. Our will to not go along with every little bit of sick bullshit you want to push. It's wrong and the word is out on pushing late term abortion. You guys just want to keep pushing boundaries for the sake of it. It has nothing to do with the betterment of society

[SamE86]

@t-8900 im not a fucking liberal. Fyi... If abortion becomes illegal then what happens if someone gets pregnant from a rape? Should she be forced to carry her attackers baby? Some of you people should have been aborted lol. Maybe you still can be lol. Maybe you are eligible for a really late term abortion 😂

[t-8900]

I think i mentioned this before but looks like not in this threat. I believe rape and the case of it killing the mother are grounds for a legal abortion. But that's it imho. Unless the baby is going to have a miserable life from some horrible deformities. But I think a healthy baby created out of casual sex should not be murdered simply for the sake of convenience.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about any of that, but that's one hell of an outfit she has on!

[Asianguy123]

My friend got abortion and it was twins. Doctor wanted more money because it’s more

[Anonymous]

Abortion is never homicide. Stop messing with women's bodies now.

[Asker]

Homicide, the killing of one human being by another. Homicide is a general term and may refer to a noncriminal act as well as the criminal act of murder.
Abortion is the killing of a human fetus.

[Opinion Owner]

Thanks for liking my comment and then taking that like back. Women have a say in their wombs and they can have an abortion unwanted brats.

[Asker]

No one's questioning that you don't have a say, course it's your body right, when you choose to have sex you know the risks. So if you don't want to get pregnant don't have sex.

[Opinion Owner]

I can have as much sex as I want. Or I may not be protected. I can even have an abortion. These are the most natural rights. Just dont like children. That is all.

[Asker]

you can get sterilised. This question is more so about the fact that this woman upon hearing she's carrying twins aborted.

[Opinion Owner]

yes, i saw it in your answers. I replied only by reading the title without seeing the video.

[iBeowulf]

Men don't get a say although it's their sperm. Fortunately, marriage, cohabitation, sex and childbirth rates are at all time lows.

[Opinion Owner]

Here came the vile misogynist again. Your sperm must be rendered dysfunctional. You are a great danger to society. @iBeowulf

[t-8900]

women who get abortions should have their eggs removed. They shouldn't have the right to children later. Once a killer, always a killer.

[Opinion Owner]

Men are the people who will have the last word about a woman's body. Now shut the fuck up, sperm bag.

[iBeowulf]

South Brazil and Argentina have the largest populations of white people, to the tune of almost 80%. 🦒🍆🇺🇸

[Halibut]

@t-8900 Abortion isn't murder. Abortion protects children, typically.

[iBeowulf]

Guys, simps will justify murder of the innocent if a woman is the culprit.

[Halibut]

@iBeowulf Men don't get a say in abortion because A: the women go through the physical hardship and B: at most, if the woman wanted to terminate the pregnancy and the man didn't, you'd have a tie. No matter how you look at it, giving men any power to determine whether or not an abortion happens makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Halibut]

@iBeowulf I'm not a "simp" you incel. What I'm doing is called practicing common decency. You should probably try to figure out how that works. Women are not the cause of every problem you have. A lot of your problems are probably just you. Take a bath or something. I bet that'd help you get a date... although your personality can't be helping things either.

[Daniela1982]

If you don't want any "unwanted brats" then don't have sex or get your tubes tied. A simple solution.

[t-8900]

@Daneliela1982 you forget why they want abortion in the first place, they never take respons for anything. Even when they have murderers on trial they try to empathize with them. There's no reasoning with those this far gone.

[Halibut]

@Daniela1982 No... it's not a simple solution, because of birth defects, which can't be predicted... and also, it's unnecessary to get one's tubes tied if onself just uses contraception or the morning after pill or, as an emergency backup option, an early abortion. Fetuses don't have the mental connections to experience pain until well into the pregnancy.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 abortion is a way of taking responsibility. It's a path that typically leads to zero problems for anyone... unlike giving birth. If you give birth without wanting the child, that, at minimum, leads to problems for you... through the unpleasant birthing process, and possibly for other people too if the child doesn't get a good home.

[iBeowulf]

As best I can determine, taxpayers subsidize roughly 24% of all abortion costs in the U. S. with 6.6% borne by federal taxpayers and the remaining 17.4% picked up by state taxpayers. Stop trying to pilfer other people's pockets because of neglect, sloth and irresponsibility. Women and soyboys gravitate toward socialism because they can't keep up in a meritocratic environment.

[Opinion Owner]

@Halibut , what kind of king are you? I want to kiss you on the forehead. Thanks for your sensible comments.

[Милашка]

oppsoing women killing their babies is not misogyny.

[iBeowulf]

Everything is misogyny or racism, because it pays to charge white men in court.

[Halibut]

@iBeowulf in this case there's a lot of misogyny going on... real misogyny

[Halibut]

Thanks you for your compliment.

[Opinion Owner]

you're welcome @Halibut

[Inexpensivefurniture]

No because I don't believe abortion is murder

[Asker]

What do you think it is if a baby is killed?

[Inexpensivefurniture]

It's a medical procudure

[succubus_girl]

Abortion isn't homicide.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Christians will hate this answer

[Милашка]

@ItsMeItsMe1989 abort all you want. Eventually you will be burning in hell.. I don't care

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

I'm an agnostic jew

Did you know abortion isn't even mentioned in the bible, ie genesis

Did you know jews also dont believe in hell

I'm white, what if i decided to not reproduce, am i still "going to hell", in your words?

[Милашка]

@ItsMeItsMe1989 if you don't impregnate someone then bow is it murder?
it doesn't matter if you believe in hell or not. The hell still exists.
Bible condemns murder. SO yet it is against abortion

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

@Милашка Hell exists because YOU want it to. Hell doesn't exist for ME

Did you know that every time you masturbate, you're killing sperm, so, you could essentially say that masturbating and not getting someone pregnant, is still murder. That's why republicucks don't want men, masturbating, and women using contraceptives, as well as men

No. It simply doesn't. THE BIBLE DOES NOT MENTION MURDER

Did you know the bible has been written over, and over... to fit peoples "narratives". Go back and look at Genesis, there is NO mention of abortion

ABORTION IS NOT MURDER

GET THE FUCK OVER IT, YOU FUCKING DOUCHEBAG

[Милашка]

@ItsMeItsMe1989 why would I want it to exist?

[BlacklightShade]

Were the mother and father killed too?

[Asker]

If the father couldn't stop her then he's spared but the mother's soul is owned by the devil now.

[t-8900]

agree with you OP

[DaveJord]

I agree the girl in the clip is hot.

[Anonymous]

the fallen angels taught abortion
what do you think

[FunkyMonkee]

IF you consider abortion, homicide.

[Asker]

Yeah I mean if the woman was told she's having twins and then suddenly a decided no then I think that's a homicide.

[lizchill]

Not at all. Abortion is not murder.

[t-8900]

i think this is why we men need to filter women out. You need to be honest up front about being pro-choice. For me a pro-choicer is not marriage material. that's my opinion on it. And likely you feel the same about pro-lifers. For me abortion is the one social hill I am willing to die on because imho it's the most heinous crime that has ever existed.

[lizchill]

My great grandmother lost her life from a back alley abortion in Chicago. Had there been suitable clinics and drs to go to she would've survived

[t-8900]

I feel bad for her if she got raped and then got pregnant. Otherwise imho I think it's karma tbh. Dont mess around if you can't accept the responsibility. that might sound horrible to you but completely reasonable to me. Imho if your willing to not only kill your own child but your own flesh and blood your just as bad as the Waffen SS in everyway.

[lizchill]

Just bc you don't think it's right doesn't mean it shouldn't be available in a safe healthy environment for others who may not share your views

[t-8900]

that rational doesn't work when innocent life is on the line. Imho if a woman is willing to have an abortion then the child she is carrying is by default more valuable than her.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 That's about the most tragic statement I've ever seen... your lack of understanding. An organism cannot be harmed by death if it does not understand death and cannot feel pain from death. You're advocating that people bring people into the world in ways that harm both themselves and the people brought into the world, for no reason.

[NicoletteXO]

@Halibut don't even bother with this guy. He hates women and yet simultaneously wallows in victim mentality regarding the fact that he can't get a girlfriend. I could say more as I've had plenty of interactions with him here. I tried to be kind and understanding, but he is entrenched in his ways it seems. I suspect he just wants to control women's bodies since he has no access to them.

[t-8900]

#Halibut I'm trying to learn from others on the subject. Having my world views changed slowly. Perhaps the way you put it there is a way I can accept it more. I dt think late term is right though. But I guess if it can't feel pain and fear yet then it's a different story. Thanks for breaking that down for me better.

[NicoletteXO]

@t-8900 Well that is surprising! Yeah of course, I don't think anyone is advocating for late term abortion. Which is also dangerous for the mother too. But the capacity to make a choice in the early stages is fundamental.

[t-8900]

@NicoletteXO I'm really just trying to do the right thing. I'm sorry if you took what I did wrong. Also I've let go of religion because I recognized that it was bringing nothing but toxicity to myself. I've for so long tried to not be who I really am for fearing going to hell but I just can't love that way anymore and lie to myself

[t-8900]

@NicoletteXO check your pms I sent you some messages

[OddBeMe]

Unborn aren’t people.

[Asker]

So a mother or a killer can kill an unborn any time before it's born and it's not a murder?

[OddBeMe]

The issue is bodily autonomy. If the fetus can survive on its own great. If not it’s the host body’s choice.

If not…how dare you kill a virus in your body. You serial killer.

[Asker]

Who created the idea of abortion and abortion pills? In China once upon a time parents weren't allowed to have more than 1 child and would abort if it's a girl. Abortion infringes natural selection.

[Halibut]

I don't think bodily autonomy should have anything to do with it. That doesn't impact whether or not an abortion causes harm. The ability to experience pain does that, and perhaps other forms of suffering... which seemingly come about after 24 weeks or so, perhaps. I think that's the point at which abortion is capable of causing harm and therefore there is something resembling an argument for making it illegal. I still think we'd need it legal later, at minimum, for the sorts of birth defects that can lead to disadvantages that could be seen as countering the potential pain of the abortion though, and making the abortion lead to less unpleasantness than the birth defects would.

But i like your comment about the virus though... and I do admit that if the fetus can survive on its own, I think, tends to have to do with the legal aspects of things.

[Halibut]

Natural selection sucks. Here's what natural selection is: get two groups of people to go out into the woods. one group wears red shirts. the other wears blue shirts. Have them cannibalize each other to avoid overpopulation. Nature sucks. Natural selection sucks. Everything natural sucks. It's in humanity's best interest, typically, to behave as unnaturally as possible.

[OddBeMe]

@Halibut exactly backwards to me. Think of it as the govt mandating all children have the right to parents organs. Big no right?

[OddBeMe]

@Halibut your knowledge of natural selection is off. This is how Darwin discovered it. The beaks of birds on one island were stronger than the beaks of birds on another. Because the trees were different. Over time the genes that better adapt to their environment win out.

[Anonymous]

Yes I’d agree lol

[Asker]

you shouldn't be afraid to speak your mind

[Xoirwinkan]

Women who get abortions are evil.

[Halibut]

You're evil. Women who get abortions are fine. You cannot harm an organism in any meaningful way by killing it if it doesn't understand death and can't experience pain... which is the case of fetuses before about 24 weeks into the pregnancy or so, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

[natured]

It's not a homicide at all generally speaking

[Asker]

Why then did the woman get upset about it and feel the need to tell all inc. the world

[Halibut]

because she went through hell. If that implies homicide... you crying when your grandmother dies apparently means you probably killed her.

[cloudspy]

No I would not agree it's a double homicide.

[Asker]

So why did the woman get upset

[cloudspy]

We don't know her circumstances. Maybe wasn't an easy decision for her to make. Maybe she does feel guilty. Feeling guilty about something doesn't mean you're admitting you committed a crime.

[Asker]

Guilt is a feeling of wrongdoing. This is why this woman confessed on a reality show. She was looking for forgiveness, I myself could not forgive her I'm afraid.

[cloudspy]

Why couldn't you forgive her?

[Asker]

She killed. And what's worse she is making money from it.

[cloudspy]

I'm pro choice. I don't believe she killed anything outside of herself. Too many kids are brought into this world unwanted, unloved and suffering.

[Asker]

But she was priveledged enough to go out having sex with men? Makes no sense. You're bringing in extreme environments to suit your ideology yet she's on a reality TV show in America making money off killing. She denied someone waiting in line an opportunity to live on earth.

[cloudspy]

Why does this bother you so much? Obviously you would never be with a woman who would abort their pregnancy. How is it affecting you that the next lives in line were not brought into this world? She can't make money from it unless someone pays her. She can't abort her pregnancy unless someone is willing to do it. I don't really give too much fuck about her her motives, they are hers and for her to deal with. If she's a heartless, selfish, immoral, money grabbing cow I am still pro choice.

[Asker]

you are pro-choice because you want to be. But before you decide on that you should care about others or else it's selfish. This world can take away your freedom and give you back a little of it to keep you happy. Imagine if you were told you can only have 1 child you want a boy, you'd choose to keep aborting girls? That's what happened in China.

[cloudspy]

I thought we were talking about whether or not in my opinion abortion is homicide. Now you're talking about freedom, aborting boys or girls, and China. I've lost the plot!

[Asker]

this question challenges natural selection. She aborted because she was having twins, rather than 1 baby.

[cloudspy]

Is miscarriage mother nature committing homicide?

[Asker]

you're being dumb 🤣
So if a father punches a pregnant girl's belly or puts something in her food that stops a pregnancy, that's an abortion? They didn't want the baby. Can't be homicide.

[Halibut]

Oh my god... fetuses are either forced to live or forced not to live. If we think about the "free will" of the fetus... it doesn't understand death. Death basically just means falling into a deep sleep for it. It's not going to mind that unless it involves pain... which it doesn't seem to before 24 weeks according to the American College of obstetricians and Gynecologists.

Now, even once it can experience pain that pain needs to be weight against the unpleasantness of being born and whatever negative circumstances the parents were considering getting an abortion over.

You're bashing women over nothing. You're encouraging them to harm themselves... through not getting abortions when they get pregnant but don't want children... for no reason, and if they are foolish enough to listen to you and have children, it harms their children too because they had children before they wanted them.

[Halibut]

@ "you're being dumb 🤣
So if a father punches a pregnant girl's belly or puts something in her food that stops a pregnancy, that's an abortion? They didn't want the baby. Can't be homicide."

You're the one being dumb. That's illegal because it steals something from the mother, damages her body, and ruins her plans for the future. It also might have prevented the would-be baby from growing up in an ideal environment the mother had planned for it.

[Halibut]

@cloudspy Because they don't want to think about reality enough to figure out that they're wrong, because that would make them feel icky... so they bother you to feel better about themselves. You have my sympathies by the way.

[Agape93]

Nope

[Anonymous]

Yes and the father is part of the crime …

[Opinion Owner]

Stop blaming women and fucking use a condom..

[Asker]

Why do you assume the father didn't want twins

[iBeowulf]

Guys, women will lie about taking birth control and either trap you or change their mind and cancel their, not your, offspring.

[Asker]

@iBeowulf oh i see what you mean, when a girl cheats

[iBeowulf]

I wasn't referring to cheating, but that also happens... can you not read?

[Asker]

@iBeowulf you said "cancel their, not your" so it's your fault

[iBeowulf]

Since they're obviously biologically related to both parents, I refer to legality because of child custody statistics. Dealing with dumb people just sucks all the fun out of everything. I can't be hyperbolic, I can't try analogies... I can't be colorful.

[Asker]

@iBeowulf you are so Sheldon like 😅

[iBeowulf]

You wish, fat boy.

[t-8900]

the woman let him inside of her without the condom. Women have the power in the bedroom BY LAW. So she can deny him entrance unless he's wrapped. Plus she has plan B, mesh, birth control, all kinds of shit. Literally 13 kinds! STOP BLAMING MEN FOR WOMEN'S LACK OF FORESIGHT!

[iBeowulf]

You're crazy smart, but we both know that'll never happen. Women could have godlike power and they'd still blame men for everything.

[Halibut]

@iBeowulf no they won't... not typically, and most men won't rape you too.

[iBeowulf]

Leave me out of your homoerotic fantasies.

[NYCQuestions1976]

I'd rather watch sports and cartoons.

[Asker]

We should be glad our mothers wanted us

[NYCQuestions1976]

Sure, but I hate reality programming.

[Asker]

I do too actually 😂

[Halibut]

You wouldn't have lost anything if your mother had terminated your pregnancy. You'd never know it... so no... there is no reason to be glad our mothers "wanted" us, unless by wanted us, you mean loved us after we already existed as babies who were looking up at the world and learning about it. Then, yes, in that sense we should be glad our mothers wanted us.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@Halibut Way too serious of a response.

[Halibut]

this is a serious topic. I've probably spent 20 hours arguing on this website alone, because this is important to me.

[NYCQuestions1976]

@Halibut Okay.

[blondfrog]

Yes it is.

[dudeinohio]

Yes I would

[SmokinAces2000]

It’s not a homicide at all

[Asker]

It is you just don't understand

[SmokinAces2000]

It’s easy for you too say that abortion is wrong and murder when you will never get pregnant. Giving birth is like the closest a women will ever come to death so the women should have a say on if she wants to give birth or not

[Anonymous]

Yes.

[Anonymous]

Bullshit.

[Anonymous]

LMAOOO DUH