Would you agree that an abortion of twins is a double homicide?

[Anonymous]

Here is an example video below:

Updates

+1 y

What if a woman aborted every 3months until she ran out of her own eggs. And then decided to buy other people's eggs and continue aborting a 100 times until menopause. Nobody can stop her the law says it's okay. Then she brags to people that she is a serial killer, is this fair?

Updates

+1 y

If someone doesn't view a fetus as life it should be nothing more than getting a clump of cells like a tumour removed or liposuction or appendix out.
The fact that the woman in the video is emotional and crying especially to this extent is evidence of guilt that she views a fetus as life and decided to abort her twins anyway.

[forthright]

It's only homicide if it's done unlawfully. But certain things like this shouldn't be unlawful if done properly. The entire purpose of the law is to prevent injustice from occurring. And if done right, an injustice can't occur on something not even capable of consciousness.

[Asker]

the definition of homicide includes lawful killing of a human as well. Women refuse to accept it but why feel the guilt later. The reason abortion clinics even exist is because women would otherwise go to extraordinary lengths to kill their unborn baby or give birth alone and then kill. Nobody likes finding a fetus in a public toilet or baby in a bin.

[forthright]

Our words get in the way when talking about complex matters like this. They come attached with them very biased meanings. In this case, it's biased for good reason. It doesn't feel good to be murdered or to have someone you love murdered. But I do believe that some homicides can be justified.

When we take a step back and analyze the state of living, we see that life is a painful thing. It's filled with suffering. And by having a baby, we'd be consciously subjecting another human to suffering. I believe that creating life is more of a sin than destroying it. So although I personally don't think we should be reproducing at all, people will do it regardless.

Better that they do it when the human is at a young age than an older one. And the more it's legalized, the fewer people will have to be freaked out by seeing others sad attempts at trying to prevent future suffering...

[Asker]

id tend to agree with you but then if every person had this viewpoint villages and thirld world countries would die out. You live with whatever means you have, you grow your own food, ration, walk to places to get water etc etc. The abortions however are occurring in civilised priveledged opportunity equality based countries.

[forthright]

I don't know how to solve poverty & shitty structures within other countries. But I do know that stopping abortion in our own won't help us do that. When people have kids when they aren't ready or wanting to then they make shitty parents. And shitty parents tend to produce kids that aren't good for society's growth.

[Asker]

perhaps, but nobody knows if they'll make a good parent until theyve experienced it. Many have kids just to claim benefits anyway.

[forthright]

That could be a good argument for pro abortion tbh. I believe we need to have an abortion as an option now more than ever since people have become more promiscuous these days. The decline of the church & strong religious following came with it more and more relaxed morals. So now that we don't have fear keeping people from procreating so much, the wrong people are hooking up with and dating more of the wrong people.

Babies are expensive & they limit people's potential. I've seen first hand just how much babies limit people. I come from a family where all of the women have been with many deadbeat guys & had many babies. They'd be more sucessful in life if they hadn't. Ofc they sadly mainly didn't want abortions, but if they did, it was nice that it was always a legal option.

[Jer3312]

What is your opinion of the case of Nathan Sutherland? His crimes were against a person not capable of consciousness.

[Halibut]

@forthright I'm not an anti-natalist. It's my opinion that there is no reason to create new life unless it assists existing life, and I believe it often does... and I think that the pleasure of life can make up for the suffering of life. That said, I love that you're thinking outside the box.

My view is more that... if the parents want a child, and that child will be born into a decent life, it probably makes sense to have the child. If they don't want a child though, there is no reason to bring the child into the world.

[nella965]

@asker

so where is the guilt for giving birth to kids only for it to be malnourished, abused, without maternal love, neglected?

she may be experiencing guilt, but she may think its the better thing to do.

[iBeowulf]

Women are the most prolific mass murders of all time, boys.

[Asker]

wow that's insane, so many? 😕

[iBeowulf]

Our Selective Service immune, Affirmative Action enabled, female voting majority doesn't want people to know, so abortion isn't listed as an official cause of death, conveniently.

[Asker]

I wonder if psychopath women deliberately get pregnant and abort just so they can feel the enjoyment of killing.

[iBeowulf]

Who cares at this point? The stack of bodies could be seen from space.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Echo chamber, MHO

[t-8900]

makes you think that every pro choicer should be wearing Mao, Stalin, and Hitler T-shirts everyday.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Again, you're just an echo chamber. BIASED MHO

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf That's like saying pulling the plug on permanently brain-dead comatose people is murder. That's not murder. Anyone who thinks it's murder has very poor reasoning skills... which is unfortunately an enormous percentage of the population. Abortion, if it occurs before about the 24 weeks when fetuses may be able to experience pain according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, involves zero of the harms that are the reasons murder is typically defined as illegal. After the 24 week point, abortion may involve one of the harms that is the reason murder is illegal: pain. That said, that pain also needs to be weighed against the unpleasantness of the birthing process and whatever circumstances that were the reasons the parents were considering the abortion for.

Another reason why abortion is not murder is because in murder, something is forcefully taken from you: your life. In abortion, nothing is forcefully taken away that would not already be forced by mother nature.. If the fetus is not forced to die, it's forced to live. Either way the fetus has no choice.

Deer hunting is closer to murder than abortion... because at least with deer hunting that's not typically done to benefit the deer, and it will involve pain, and deer-hunting really isn't done to assist the deer... whereas I think a strong argument could be made that, if we really wanted to focus on helping children as much as possible, the solution could be to encourage everyone to get more abortions so that only the parents who want children the most have kids.

[iBeowulf]

So you'll say anything to justify murder if women are the culprit... got it.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf Abortion isn't murder... and if you wanted to focus on nothing except protecting children, you might argue that we should create a state-mandated eugenics program that mandates the abortions of every parent with low I. Q., a history of genetic problems, or who are impoverished. That would be horribly tyrannical... but unlike abortion bans, at least it might help children.

[iBeowulf]

You want to run to big daddy government for everything, like a girl, but you don't support a government ban on abortion, because it's not your brand of big daddy? Classic woman logic.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf You have the maturity level of a small child. You totally ignored my long, logical post to you that we could have had a useful discussion about. You like to insult women (which makes you trash) too. Go away. Come back when you're ready to have an adult conversation using logic and reasoning and not your bullshit about abortion being murder, which it's not, for reasons I've explained.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 Pro lifers are the ones essentially mandating that the government inject incurable diseases into people's children. That's what laws banning abortion do. That's because if a woman is pregnant with a developing fetus with downe syndrome, and they get an abortion, and have another baby later, that's essentially the same thing as the original fetus being cured of downe syndrome. Opposing that is opposing the best miracle cure we have.

Now, I'm not encouraging abortion in that statement. For all I know the powerful parental instincts that might prevent a parent from even thinking of getting an abortion might make a kid's life wonderful regardless of whatever state they're born into. But using that "miracle cure" needs to be a legal option.

[iBeowulf]

Maternal genetic testing for various genes that lead to birth defects are a thing. Any reason is good enough for you, because you worship women. We don't want your input and it's no longer up for debate.

[Halibut]

@ibeowulf I don't worship women you nitwit. I'm just not a chauvenistic twat like you who spends all their time pondering how horrible they are... which they're not. They probably have harder lives than men on average, because of the menstreul cramps and greater safety concerns, by the way.

Also, yeah... maternal testing for various genetic problems are a thing. ultrasounds happen well into the second trimester, from 18 to 20 weeks. That's when birth defects really can be detected, from what I understand.

[t-8900]

@Halibut untrue. Women have an easier time in society than men do by a long shot. You are short sighted in thinking menstrual cycles and child bearing are enough to tip the scales. Things might be slowly changing in some aspects but historically men had the short end of the stick. Go ask any poor sob that was forced into a war he had no business being in. Ask any man who was expected to take a bullet for a woman or selflessly sacrifice himself for her. Ask the men that fought to the death to win a chance to mate with a woman because she was the prize. Ask the men that toil in the fields, dig the ditches, work 100 weeks in mushroom houses. Women aren't the ones doing he back breaking work and the never will. And don't even get me started on th fucked up alimony/custody/divorce system, the rape support groups that refuse men who are also victims entry, or the way domestic violence is treated. And let's not forget the #BelieveAllWomen bullshit.

[NicoletteXO]

@Halibut thank you. Correct.

[NicoletteXO]

@t-8900 OMG been overdosing on the MGTOW websites, now, have we?

[NicoletteXO]

Just reading this thread again. Guys - let me tell you, Halibut is the Man here. Intelligent, logical, empathic, clear. The rest of you are complete sissies. Worse, you're misogynistic sissies. Unfortunately you got owned. Deal with it. You lost to a man who is simply superior to you.

[nella965]

just imagine if we didn't abort those 15 million people. i can guarantee that unemployment will sky rocket. there simply aren't enough jobs for that many people.

[Halibut]

@t-8900 which sex has it harder will inevitably depend on the person... that's the point. I'm not saying one sex doesn't, on average, have it harder than the other. I would rather be a man than a woman though. I would never trade anything for the greater safety concerns.

Ask the women with abusive husbands. Ask the women who countless chauvenistic bastards are accusing of wrongdoing for getting abortions... and totally ignoring the men who got them pregnant. Ask the women constantly being sexually harassed. Ask the quite large percentage of women who may have been sexually assaulted. See what I'm getting at here?

[Halibut]

@NicoletteXO thank you for the compliment.

[Coulis]

I agree. There is a difference between aborting at 6 weeks as opposed to 6 months however. People want to keep the aborting but don't want to give up the unbridled sex.

[Asker]

people hide their conscience but they break in the end.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Echo chamber MHO

[Halibut]

shame on you for your barbaric, vicious mentality. No... abortion is not murder.

[doopayo]

Lmao I know that meme. And no, because it doesn’t meet the correct description for one

[Asker]

Why was she crying about it then? 😭

[Rachelspiks]

Asker - the answer to that is at the 0:08 mark, when she says that "You can get out of the gutter". The other girls started crying because she understood what she was going on about, about how hard it is to live life on the street. She wasn't crying because of the abortions she'd had.

[Halibut]

@Rachelspiks yes

[lightbulb27]

I have no idea and choose not to think about it because that just causes distress and hopelessness. I choose to stand back from the legal aspect and address the human emotional aspect, something that I can influence in myself, loves ones, and others to build values of life and help others to heal so they can have life and pass it on.

I'd rather deal with that individual and their issues so that they become a better person, parent and heal the messed up emotions before they develop the disconnect with their unborn offspring and want to kill them in hopelessness. The guilt trip didn't help. The twins had no chance without mom anyways. Mom needs healed.. set free of the curses projected upon her, then the children can survive and thrive. It's not a color but a cultural issue and trap, she's expressing it. Lets not forget about dad either. We need Men, we need more Men, we need strong families to survive. Country is being torn up. Caveat... this show is obviously about drama... so take with grain of salt, but it is real for many, so fair enough.

Knowing women better now, all this is such a huge warning on this web site you'd better be careful who you are messing with, mating with, dating and fooling with. A lot of people are playing with grenades and don't know it.

"The wages of sin is death". In this case, two people died before they had a chance to breathe. That's a human tragedy. What can be done is to take this, and heal the hearts of as many as possible.

[Halibut]

It's not a tragedy. Death, before the organism has an understanding of death, is not. Nothing is lost, because the organism doesn't care about death. Oblivion is a neutral condition to it... not something to fear like it is for us... unless the organism is at the point of being capable of experiencing pain, perhaps.

[lightbulb27]

@Halibut whose to say who those two humans would have been, their contribution to humanity, or maybe one is the Dr. that would save your life, die in a war stopping a terrorist from killing your family, nurse who holds your hand at the end of your life, or your wife... that would never be. It's devaluing a life that is started. whether that life can experience it, is just part of it.

[Halibut]

Who are you to say that I would not have been better of non-existent? You don't know me. You can't know that. It doesn't de-value my life to say that I'd probably be better off replaced with some genetically engineered superhuman. That's okay. That's just the way things are. That doesn't make my life any less important... nor the life of anyone with Downe syndrome and congentical heart defects I have advocated for the abortion of in the past. They're here now, as am I, and any costs of that are sunken and no longer matter.

That said, those costs didn't necessarily need to be paid in the first place.

[lightbulb27]

@Halibut are you saying you have no worth and are useless? Was Stephen Hawking useless? Not that he wanted such illness, and some lives can probably seem worse than death. but not right to project that onto an innocent. It isn't fair for me or anyone to judge the worth of an unborn. Some lives greatly alter human history in a good way, some make a difference to even one persons life, and may never know it. That is one aspect of life.. living, having hope, love... fill a persons day with love, that is fulfilling. that's the good part of life. It's up to the parents of the offspring though, so I don't tell people what to do and leave it their choice. without a mother and father, chances of navigating the world are low. maybe a Dave Thomas type person who is adopted to a good home. Parents are needed for those offspring.

[NicoletteXO]

What a stupid and exaggerated hypothetical. Show me one woman in the history of humankind that has done what you are suggesting. You can't because there are none. The vast majority of women don't do this for kicks, honey. And for those small minority of women who are genuinely irresponsible and careless, I don't think they're going to magically become a fabulous mother just because you force them to gestate. If anything, you're setting up a situation where a child will be born into utter destitution. So do you really care about "life" or do you care about controlling women's choices and bodies?

[Halibut]

No... it's not homicide, and society really needs to stop thinking that way. Fetuses can't experience pain before 24 weeks pregnancy. Even if they can... we'd be talking about death with pain, but without any of the other traits that make it so horrible for adult humans and born children. There is no knowledge of death. There are no social bonds broken. There is no breakdown of society if it's legalized. There is no loss of control... etc.

Perhaps the situation you mentioned with a woman aborting thousands of her own fetuses should be legally punished somehow... if it were to happen... but it will never happen.

Obviously, aborting twins should not count as double homicide. Fetuses are either forced to live or forced to not live. Either way, they get no choice in the matter. Abortion therefore doesn't necessarily take anything away from them.

[exitseven]

Somehow there has to be a real non political decision made regarding exactly when a group of cells becomes a human being. It is above my pay grade but I know that it should not be up to Biden and it should not be up the the Pope.
The way it is now, people can get an abortion ten minutes before they go into labor. I think that that is murder. And if it is twins then yes, it is a double murder.

[Halibut]

How many people do you think are going to get an abortion ten minutes before they go into labor, for reasons that aren't extremely important... such as the mother's healthy? I'm thinking not many. I therefore do not think that's murder.

[nella965]

Having a few homicides is ok as long as it makes the world a better place. I don't think its fair to give birth to babies just for it to have a terrible miserable childhood. A bad childhood leads to kids to grow up as a criminals, abusive parents, mental illnesses. Having too many kids can also lead to unemployment for everyone else.

Abortion should never be seen as an amazing thing. But you gotta do what you gotta do in order for the overall good.

[hahahmm]

"Having a few homicides is ok as long as it makes the world a better place." -- well, if you kill the moms it's fewer than if you let them kill the unborn. If you want to talk about the math. Anyhow, most of these kids have bad lives because the mom was dumb enough to have a baby with a guy who was obviously a horrible choice (either because he said so or he showed it to be so).

[nella965]

@hahahmm

Aborting a baby at its very early stages is less hurtful and painful than murdering a real life human who can feel. We are talking about something so underdeveloped that it’s not even considered a human yet. This thing never knew it was alive and cannot feel.

[nella965]

@hahahmm

because you gotta realize , even if you do not abort this baby and let it out into The real world, this baby be fucked either way. A mom and dad that doesn’t want it. Even if they do raise it, I’m sure the kid won’t be appreciated. Is it fair to bring this kid out into the world only for It to live a terrible childhood? A terrible childhood is what develops future criminals , murderers, mentally ill folks, abusive parents

[nella965]

Adoption is no guarantee that this baby will be treated well. All throughout history , orphan kids were adopted by families to used as slaves , maids , to serve the husband and wife. They weren’t treated well. This is why adoption agencies are so picky on who to give babies to. They don’t just hand out kids to absolutely anyone.

[molonski2]

Its moral homicide thats for certain..
A friend of mine aborted twins years ago , and she never ever recovered from the pain..
Those babies didn't ask to be there , they had no choice. No matter how its played out , you will pay big time , emotionally the female will never recover.
Yes , its certainly moral homicide , just like sanctioned killing , but again she"ll just never recover , there is always a price.

[Halibut]

no it's not... that'll depend on the person. Some people will just look at things the logical way and think, "death cannot harm an organism that can't experience pain yet and doesn't understand death yet."

[molonski2]

Beyond doubt , its murder of 2 beings..
There is a price to be paid for those deaths and its one in which ( certainly the female ) will NEVER recover from , mark my words , ask the woman in 20 years.
Morals down the gutter stuff

[Rachelspiks]

Why don't we call in an expert, an actual homicide detective, on this here?

Lt. Columbo. Nope, even he can't figure it out.

[Floppy2112]

I couldn't watch. It's too disgusting to me. Yes, it's obviously a double homicide so long as homicide is defined as a human life taken by unnatural means. And it's wow depressing. And no, I wouldn't knowing deal with a female who has had an abortion.

[Halibut]

No it's not... because there are different types of humans. There are, for example, brain-dead comatose humans who have pretty much everything in common with fetuses in the early stages of pregnancy. It's legal to pull the plug on them for some of the same reasons abortion is legal.

[Floppy2112]

@Halibut Uh, well that would be called mass murder. I can't say I am down for that. Mouth-breathers are everywhere. Nothing we can do about that.

[Anonymous]

It isn't homicide because they aren't protected by the law. It is killing 2 human lives, though. There is no debate on the idea that, even if they aren't born yet, they are living. And the type of life they would be categorized is human. So it is ending human life. And in the case of twins, it would be ending 2 human lives. But this does not make it homicide.

So, it would not be double homicide. If the unborn were granted rights and protected from being killed under homicide laws, then it would be a double homicide. And this has nothing to do with anybody's beliefs, natural rights, etc. It's a matter of how the law is written and the precedence of the interpretation of that law.

[Interstate]

I graduated High School in 2000. It was about a year before when the Supreme Court (with the help of the Amish Community), ruled that a fertilized Ovum IS a fetus.

And yes, the irresponsible act of murdering two human lives IS homicide.

[Halibut]

no it's not... abortion usually involves zero of the harms that are the reason why homicide is dealt with so harshly. Just think about it.

[Daniela1982]

If a baby in the womb is not considered a person, then why is someone who killed a pregnant woman charged with a double homicide?

[Halibut]

I'm not sure they should be... but that's not particularly important to me, just so long as they're convicted of some kind of crime.

They harmed the mother greatly through hindering her plans and dreams for the future. They may have also prevented a child from being born into as ideal of a life as they could have been born into, through messing up the mother's plans. Also, it's in society's interest to protect the most vulnerable, and we want to make sure pregnant mother's are extra-protected, because of how delicate the developmental process of a baby/fetus/whatever is in the womb.

That said, if there was no way to know the mother was pregnant... I don't think it should be a double homicide... but I'm not going to complain a lot if a murderer gets a few more years.

[Halibut]

Edit... what I should have said is that my statements apply to harming a living mother in a manner in which her developing baby dies in her womb and why that should be illegal. I figure it might make sense to tack that onto the murder of pregnant women too because the father might lose something additional too... his plans are also lost.

The law makes sense... and it also makes sense to simultaneously not legally treat the fetus in the womb as a person in every way... because it doesn't think like most people do, or feel like most people do. It's something very different than an adult or toddler, and so it needs to be treated differently.

[Daniela1982]

@Halibut I do like what you said about the father losing his child too. I'm sure most fathers-to-be would call the death of their unborn baby a murder.

[Halibut]

I don't know. I've never been a father or wanted to be one. I don't know what that'd be like.

That said, I think it's probably obvious that any man who believes their wife getting an abortion means that their baby was murdered by their wife is a monster who deserves nothing but disdain from society.

But yeah... I'm sure for a lot of fathers the loss of an unborn child when their wife is killed is an extra source of pain.

[Interstate]

@Halibut Just because the baby can't do everything because it isn't fully developed and born yet doesn't mean it isn't a person.

In your first response to Daniela, you said;
"They may have also prevented a child from being born into as ideal of a life...". But yet you are arguing that a fertilized Ovary isn't a baby? Halibut... you contradicted yourself there, dude.

[Halibut]

@Interstate it doesn't matter whether or not a fetus is a person. Arguing over that would just be semantic bickering. What's important is that death cannot harm a fetus in most ways it can harm most born children... especially before the 24 week point at which fetuses seem like they might be capable of experiencing paint. That means we should treat them differently... for their benefit as much as everyone else's.

[Coulis]

Because the woman was not seeking to abort the baby. So the murderer has terminated the pregnancy without consent of the woman. While I am pro-choice, I needed to point out why it's a different kettle of fish.

[ThatNoUVAtYourEyes]

Would much rather not think about such things, but now that you mention it - yes.

[Asker]

thank you

[Halibut]

No it's not. Abortion involves zero of the harms that are the reasons why homicide is typically dealt with so harshly. Homicide is illegal because it steals life away from people who very much want to live, causes them pain (typically) and if we legalized it, society would collapse. it severs social bonds and the threat of it causes fear.

None of that occurs in abortion, except for possibly pain, seemingly late into the pregnancy after 24 weeks... keeping in mind that about ninety percent of abortions happen in the fist trimester, about 12 or 13 weeks or something.

[ThatNoUVAtYourEyes]

@Halibut it does, once you happen to experience it over the strange bond that gets formed when you are involved.
Women use abortions chiefly to hide they fucked someone else with no condom or prosthetics, got pregnant. And zhey ate alarmed about Texas because you cannod do a peternity test until week 10 of pregnancy (7 at the earliest but it is unreliable then)
Are you promoting falsified paternities, standing at arpund 30% at present?

Google it

[Dragonpurple]

Something I've always found odd, is abortion is legal, yet if someone attacks that woman and kills the babies... its considered murder.

Shouldn't it instead be charged as forced unwanted abortion against the woman's will?

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

I don't know what to think, I don't think so who knows?

[MrPickles13]

No because the view that abortion is murder is not only wrong but damaging to so many lives. Those anti abortion laws are just going against human rights. We are an educated society backwards laws should not be there.

[MrPickles13]

In response to the emotional point you made that can be via a lot of things such as the circumstances that lead to the decision or even just the hormonal changes her body is going through.

To the other point.. yes a woman could do that but all she would be doing is wasting money buying eggs putting herself through a lot. And if she wants to be a serial. killer getting abortions isn't the way to do it as it's not murder. It's. A choice everyone woman should have and removing this service is unethical backwards and about 100 other things I could say.

[XSea-Sonic]

Abortion’s federally legal in my country (so I’ll answer assuming it applies to the US). So no. Get to know Roe V. Wade.

[slatyb]

Homicide is the taking of the life of another person. A fetus is not a person. For at least the first 24 weeks of gestation it is an unconscious bit of protoplasm.

[Asker]

That's assumption, not fact. Also the use of the word twins implies 2 persons.

[slatyb]

The lack of consciousness in the first 24 weeks of gestation is a scientific fact.

[Asker]

unconsciousness because of brain development in the first 24weeks cannot be disproved. Babies can also come out stillborn (not unconscious). So therefore a soul entering a body can not be disproved and entering the body from the moment of conception can't also be disproved.

[cth96190]

Abortion is murder, so the murder of two babies is a double homicide.

[msc545]

Yes, that would be a double homicide.

[Asker]

thank you

[Halibut]

No it'd not a double homicide. Abortion typically involves a grand total of zero of the harms that are the reasons why homicide is dealt with so harshly.

[Anonymous]

If you can put it in a freezer at -160C for 6 months and they don't die?

IT IS NOT A BABY.

[Halibut]

I like you

[hahahmm]

People don't abort embryos.

[Opinion Owner]

Do tell us then the exact moment the embryo stops being an embryo.