Why are guys still expected to make the first move?

[Anonymous]

I'm asking this anon as I know there will be a load of haters saying it isn't the case, but for my generation at least it is.

Girls are subtle, they drop hints and expect that to be enough, but guys aren't mind readers and are somehow expected to know when a girl would say yes.

My perspective is that girls have a bigger fear of rejection and also both genders are taught through societal norms that this is the way it is.

Guys would feel much better about themselves if girls would ask them out once in a while.

Sorry for the negative post - needed to get this off my chest.

Updates

6 mo

Feels like some women want it both ways - they don't want to do the chasing, take the risk, and conform to societal norms, yet they want gender equality - it's very confusing for me.

[Chazmatazz269]

The largest poll of its kind showed that less than fifteen percent of women have ever made the first move and a negligible percentage of respondents practice it as the norm.
Anyone who suggests that the onus to make the first move is not on men is wildly ignorant or full of sh*t.
Women benefited from a liberation from their traditional gender roles. Men did not. In so far as it benefits women and children, men are still expected to fulfill their traditional obligations as though it’s 1950, instead of 2025. Furthermore, only when it benefits women, and to a lesser extent children, men are expected to be “evolved”, and those traditional roles we are beholden to become “toxic masculinity” in order to keep us from establishing meaningful autonomy. Men don’t get to define themselves anymore. We are what women and children need us to be; no more and no less. It’s even written into legislation and enforced by precedents. Just in case you were to start thinking you can buck societal expectations.

[Asker]

Please could you link to your data source?

[Chazmatazz269]

It’s from a poll conducted by OKCupid. You can probably look it up.

[mysteriousNicholas]

I often think women are amazingly assertive in all areas of life even being bossy at work

Yet they either won't or are lacking in confidence when it comes to "ask him out" 😜 🤣

[mysteriousNicholas]

Or lazy 🦚🦚🦚🦥 lol

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

You are half right. Societal pressure for each to be that way is what does it. We aren't any more afraid of rejection than men are. Think about what we learn from media as an example. Women are princesses that have a man sweep them off their feet and live happily ever after (which honestly I have another problem with that it excludes lgbt).

We are also taught to be more gentle when it comes to letting down men out of fear of being attacked (both verbally and physically) or worse while men are taught that they will be more masculine if they make themselves approach women and be successful.

Honestly I hate gender role norms. Women should approach men. Women should not be expected to be the sole housemaker/child raiser. Men should not be considered predators or babysitters when out with their own kids. Women should not be shamed for having sex before marriage while men are applauded for it. The whole system sucks.

[Asker]

Very refreshing opinion, thanks for sharing!
Too many people on GaG are too quick to stereotype.

[Joshydavid25]

"Honestly I hate gender role norms. Women should approach men. Women should not be expected to be the sole housemaker/child raiser."

Women were never the sole housemaker/child raiser... They were just the main one.. While men were out there working long hours to provide for the family.. The system worked because it played to the natural tendencies between men and women.. But unfortunately women were given freedom to step outside that and men for the most part weren't unless they wanted to become like women..

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Unfortunately? What an asinine statement. It isn't our job to be your mother, maid and sex slave all in one. That isn't our role. We have lives we want to live that doesn't include working in the home.

Men can also be homemakers if they want to be. It's men like you who call them women for wanting to be in that role that prevents those gender roles from breaking.

[Joshydavid25]

Uh I don't think you understood what I was saying.. I said Unfortunately women were given the freedom and men weren't essentially.. Most women don't want a "homemaker husband" they want a man who's gonna provide.. Men still have to work the long hours while womencan essentiallybe what they wannabe.. Also if you look at actually nuanced history.. Women in the west were never many of those things.. Not a mother, a maid, or a sex slave.. I don't care about "gender roles", but most people abide by them because it's naturally inside us..

[kitkatto]

I guess because with animals it’s usually the male that does the courting and the female gets to choose who will be the one that gets to mate with her. But honestly, I don’t see anything wrong with girls making the first move either. In my personal experience, you’re actually less likely to face rejection as a woman.

[Asker]

I like your perspective - Darwin has a point!

[DishLady]

Tbh, I find that some guys play games and SEEM to drop hints as well, but then don't do anything about it -- or worse, they do a "shit test" to see how the gal will respond to the mention or interaction with other women.

For instance, there was a guy flirting with me for several hours -- verbally flirtatious and also staying physically closer than necessary considering we had access to a whole booth for just the two of us. Suddenly out of the blue he mentions two very young gals who are three tables down and indicates a "possible interest in seeing if they would possibly be interested" and while I didn't physically shift or move, I just suggested that if he's so interested he should go over there and talk to them. Two days later he was texting me... and asked about the girls again... and I repeated that I don't know much about them. I mentioned I didn't have their contact numbers (anticipating that he'd ask for them) and he texted me their contact info... I blinked and said, "Great! Thanks so much! If you have their info you should really just call them, silly." (Never heard from him again outside of a small work project. I don't like guys who do that sort of thing and I'd never do that sort of thing to a guy.)

Another example is a guy who stays close and comments on any guy I even marginally address... but then claims disinterest in anything more than friendship and never makes a definitive move to ask me out...

Neither of these guys is the guy to ask out. If he wants to be serious and ask a gal out then he will. They register a girl asking them out as "chasing" them.

If a gal has been exposed to this sort of fellow too much she's VERY UNLIKELY to ask a guy out.

[Asker]

Interesting comments about guy behaviour.
Have you ever asked a guy out or made the first move?

[DishLady]

Yeah, but it's established that if i do that we're only going to be friends. I only date men who know that men lead the dating game and women set the pace of how fast/slow the process goes.

[Asker]

Sounds very rigid

[DishLady]

It's ok. It works for me... and usually for the guy as well.

[Asker]

Very traditional but at least everyone knows where they stand

[DishLady]

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

And now you know why dating is largely broken anymore. Yes it's always been a man's job traditionally to approach women. But there was a time when women actually wanted to be approached for a shot at possibly forming a relationship. Those days are gone and men know it. This is why guys do not approach anymore. Most know it's a put a up deal.

To make matters worse women used to make men earn her. Now most women decide in the first few minutes whether she going to sleep with him or not. Guys know this too believe it or not.

So, the end result is women chase away all the guys that might actually be worth a 💩. And keep all the guys that know they're getting some. And he knows he doesn't have to do anything to earn it. He just plays her little game till she gives it up (which he knows won't be long). Then he's off to the next woman.

There's NOTHING wrong with a man being EXPECTED to make the first move. But until women start gaining some self respect as well as respect for men and the role they play. expect this to continue

[HollyK21]

It’s become a lot more normalized for women to make the first move. I’ve done so in the past and have several friends who’ve done so as well. For those women who still expect men to approach first though, I’d blame that on societal norms and gender roles.

[Pohjolan]

Out of curiosity what did you or your friends do to make a move?

[HollyK21]

No problem☺️

One friend had developed a crush on this guy at work, she thought maybe he liked her back but was too nervous to make a move since they were coworkers. She hated the job, quit like 4ish months later and asked for his number before leaving.

With another friend, this was at our mutual’s bday party. There was a guy she’d seen like twice before but he had stopped coming around the group after he moved for work and so we didn’t see him for several months. So when she saw him at this party she actually went up and told him that she liked him.

Another friend was just on a night out at a restaurant, she’d been eyeing the karaoke host/DJ and decided to ask for his social media. They started talking through DMs and exchanged numbers.

These are just a few of my friends! There are others too.

[HollyK21]

Oh and for myself, this was with a guy from high school that my bestie and I had run into, again on a night out lol. Him and his friends were hanging with us and I just decided to ask if he wanted to go check out this place with me for taco Tuesday the following week since that’s what we were randomly discussing at the time. He was down and we exchanged numbers. This was years and years ago, I’m currently engaged to someone different.

[Pohjolan]

@HollyK21
Thanks for sharing.

[HollyK21]

No problem! Do you feel like these are fair examples of women making the first move? I was just glancing over both your comment and the comments you’ve made to others, so I’m just curious🙂

[Pohjolan]

@HollyK21
Yes.

[Joshydavid25]

"It’s become a lot more normalized for women to make the first move."

It will never actually be normalized because it's not in women's nature.. Bumble is a great example as the creators took away what made it different because the women were overwhelmed with making the first move... Hell even women who want to get with women have a hard time making the first move..

[HollyK21]

@Joshydavid25 so if it’s not in a woman’s nature then why does it happen so much? I shared a few examples here, even my own personal experience. This isn’t some sort of phenomenon isolated to myself and my experiences only.

[Joshydavid25]

Trust me, I would be nice if women were actually approaching more as a whole, but they don't.. I've experienced women finding me attractive and only looking or dropping hints that they wanted to be approached.. But never approaching.. Maybe it's because I'm intimidating I don't know, but for the most part I have not been approached.. The few times it's happened is when they were in a group and kind of drunk..

[HollyK21]

I hear you, and I won’t say that majority of women won’t approach men, because I totally understand that many do not! But I do feel like for at least my adult life, I’ve encountered a substantial amount of women who don’t mind making the first move in some sort of way. Even if it’s not her going up to him directly, it can simply be “sliding in the dms”. If we’re speaking on personal experiences of course.

I blame the traditional values some women still hold on societal norms and gender roles. I know I don’t speak solely for myself when I say this is instilled in women by their fathers, brothers, uncles, the male figures in their life. For so long it’s always mainly been men telling their daughters or other women they respect to find a man who will ask them out first, open their doors, pay for dinners. It’s the new generations that are veering from those roles, whether it’s acting on it themselves or instilling it in their children.

As the years go on I certainly expect to see a greater shift, because of the people who are parents now and what they’re teaching their daughters.

[Joshydavid25]

"I blame the traditional values some women still hold on societal norms and gender roles. I know I don’t speak solely for myself when I say this is instilled in women by their fathers, brothers, uncles, the male figures in their life."

See we can say that they are "traditional values" but most people today aren't that traditional.. Also it's really mothers who tell their daughters not to approach if anything.. I don't think father's usually care about that sort of thing, just that the boy is not treating her badly and has good intentions.. It's honestly women who gate keep women the most..
But also it's because it's just more in women's nature, yeah if some such as yourself like a guy enough they'll show their clear and honest interest, but most will just let it die if the guy doesn't do anything.. Especially if it's not the typical guy they usually are around.

[HollyK21]

So if most women weren’t traditional, then wouldn’t that mean we’re asking men out? Because traditionally we’ve been told that men make the first move, open doors, pay for meals, head of the house, etc. If you want to be stuck in your bias then that’s fine, but that means this isn’t an open minded conversation, it’s just you trying to push your own agenda/beliefs.

Your sole experience doesn’t speak for the masses just as mine doesn’t. You don’t get to negate my experiences and just dismiss them by saying “well I don’t think fathers do this or that”, MINE did, does it not count? Plenty of my friends fathers and other relatives have instilled the same values in them, do their experiences not count either? We are actually women, I am a woman and you are not, you can’t define our experiences or describe what does or doesn’t happen for us growing up when it’s not something you went through.

[Joshydavid25]

I'm not trying to push anything.. And I'm discounting your experiences and saying that they don't count, just that they are not the norm.. I mentioned the Bumble app which is that women have to make the first move.. The creators removed that feature because women found it overwhelming..

Like I mentioned, I'm not dismissing your experiences, but then you try and pin it on men, like mothers and women don't tell each other anything.. I grew up with a mother and sisters and all around women, and I've seen the stats, and I'm a man who is interested in women...

[Joshydavid25]

I'm not discounting**..

[HollyK21]

You have no more grounds to say your experiences are the norm than I would have to say about mine. I never claimed my experiences speak for the masses, I’m simply stating that it happens more often than you claim it does. You are stating that as a whole this is not the norm, when I have an entirely different POV.

I didn’t engage your mention of bumble because I don’t think it’s relevant. Dating apps have been on the decline for years, regardless what happens on Bumble doesn’t define the overall consensus when it comes to whether or not women feel comfortable and confident enough to approach men. It’s as if you’re saying “well bumble changed their approach because women found it overwhelming. That must apply to every woman under the Sun”.

I never said that mothers don’t say anything to their daughters, but in most cases you’re going to encounter a woman who’s ideologies when it comes to dating are rooted in what the main male figures in their lives instilled in them. Why? Because the average woman’s dad right now is relatively old fashioned. We’re just now in this age range where millennials all have kids under 20, not yet on the dating scene and their minds have most likely been shaped by more progressive parents.

If you were to speak with a woman who’s like 23-25 right now her dads probably in his mid to late forties, and he probably stuck to what his dad taught him about opening doors for women, asking her out first, etc. Give it another 10 years it’ll be a whole different breed of women with entirely different approaches to dating.

As societal Norms change and progress we have no choice but to move forward with the times. Most women fully recognize that men want to be approached as well, and we feel confident enough to do it. That may not happen in your world but it doesn’t mean it happens next to never at all in other places.

[Joshydavid25]

I actually do have grounds, because most guys will tell you that they've never been approached by women.. I've also been around "Black" women who are usually more straightforward than not and even then being approached by them is not the norm either.. And I can also say that I have been hit on and pursued by gay dudes and the difference is almost night and day.. There's way guys pursue women is the way women pursue guys..

I didn't say that the Bumble thing represented all women.. Just that when you have a big enough group of people doing the same similar things you can conclude that the rest of the population of said group is not much different nor would breed different results.. Bumble had millions of women on the app.. If it worked out the app would have been a long success like tinder, but it hasn't.. Dating apps are just dating apps, but they can give good revelation on humanity..

And okay well I won't deny that some dads do tell their daughters to wait and let the guy pursue you, but I don't know about meeting a woman who's idealogy comes from their father on the regular.. I don't think I ever met that type of girl.. LOL.. Like I mentioned it just seems to be dismissive of mothers and aunties, and big sisters who can be very opininated on those matters..

And I don't think it'll change.. there's a stat that 49% of young men have never approached a woman.. And that most are single because of that.. So if women were approaching as much as you say those stats wouldn't exist.. The redpill wouldn't exist, incels wouldn't exist.. The attention deficit in men wouldn't exist.. Women wouldn't have the power that they do right now if there was more approaching from them.. The truth is that while some women do approach guys they are really attracted to, or really like, most don't.. And we could go on about gender norms and roles but at the end of the day they are nothing but an extension of each of our natures..

[HollyK21]

At this point we could go back and forth about this forever, and I’d really rather not lol. We can agree to disagree. Have a good one.

[Joshydavid25]

Yeah, I guess we both were thinking the same thing.. Thanks for being cordial as you could and not blocking me.. Lol..

[AMS700CX4u2]

My experience has been varied. Tradition maintains that the Male i[s the seeker and the Female is the sought after. But things have changed. My first penile prosthesis was implanted in 1993 and I had the procedure done at the hospital where I worked. What occurred afterwards can be viewed in two ways. OR techs talk and word gets around. About a week after I returned to work some of the secretarial pool began making comments that could have been interpreted as invitations. One, who worked with me, was more direct and cornered me in the presence of other co-workers and demanded "Fuck Me". My wife and I had just celebrated 25 of marriage and we had 2 teenage children. If ever I was going to cheat, that would have been it.

[Jammannn]

I’ve been going out a lot recently and have actually seen quite a few women make the first move but every time, it’s towards guys who are tall, muscular, and conventionally attractive (usually over 6'1").

On a recent tour, I spoke with a guy everyone called the most attractive one there 6'4", blue eyes, blonde, the whole thing. He told me he doesn’t even ask women out anymore because it only leads to disappointment, and now they just approach him. I thought he was exaggerating, but I watched it happen repeatedly throughout the trip.

I can’t imagine most guys being able to replicate that experience. Apps like Bumble might seem like they’re changing things, but realistically, if no one’s reached out to you, it just means you’re not in that top 10–20% of men looks-wise because for that group, it happens constantly, and for the rest, it’s almost nonexistent.

[Nikki1989]

It all comes down to deep historical roles, evolutionary psychology, and modern social conditioning. It is what it is, but there are many women who make the first move, where the response is usually negative.

[beenherebefore]

Because women are still expected to be modest and never chase a man.

[Asker]

Expected by who?

[beenherebefore]

Society.

[beenherebefore]

Society and men.

[Asker]

I am sure lots of men would love it if the woman made the first move.

[Anonymous]

Confidence and initiative is attractive. Women like to be chased (unless she gives obvious signs that she'd rather be left alone). I think it's less of about fear of rejection (men are not picky and usually jumps at the opportunity). But women are also taught to be shy and take less risks. So it's probably a mix of both.

[blackeagle007]

For years I been waiting to get approached. Still single

[Opinion Owner]

Well, my theory doesn't always hold water, I guess. Maybe give a treat but stay far away and be non-threatening 😂

I'm sorry we are so complicated. The delicate balance is hard to get right. And I'm glad I don't have to.

Women should probably make the first move more often. Or at least make the first one so obvious he knows to chase

[Opinion Owner]

Wait sorry. That was in response to something else entirely. Well ignore the first part. The second still holds I think

[Asker]

Men like to be chased too - to feel wanted.

[Opinion Owner]

Yes. But you don't get that opportunity as easily, I'm afraid. You'd take it if you could, just like women are 😅

Like I'm not saying it's great. I would love for women to take initiative more. Just explaining why

[blackeagle007]

They should take initiative more I agree

[MysteriousDarkness]

Women like to be chased (unless she gives obvious signs that she'd rather be left alone).
Chasing is to go after a person who does not want to be caught by you.

[Anonymous]

What are you talking about? Every girl that I've been with made the first moves. From looking at you across the room.. to opening up the space between you.. from being interested to what you're saying.. to keeping the conversation going.. those are all good indications.. I have never once when I went to go in for the kiss that I got rejected.. I got rejected once when I just went for it... I have communicated my intentions after I seen those signs of warmth and never failed..

[Anonymous]

For me it’s because I’ve been rejected over and over and over again. So what do I do? Now I let the guys approach first, I’m done with the rejections the degrading things I get called for thinking a guy is handsome. And let’s not add the racial slurs I would get called for approaching too. Imagine being rejected then the group of boys start making monkey noises behind you as you walk away

[emeraldsaphire]

Why are women expected to raise kids and do domestic duties? Because that's how guys like it. Most of the men i dated would have felt emasculated if I made the first move

[Asker]

Are they? The women I would like to date wouldn't put up with that and neither would I.

[Pohjolan]

Even if a guy would have felt emasculated by that it wouldn't have been the case next week.

[Joshydavid25]

"Most of the men i dated would have felt emasculated if I made the first move."

More guys than would love for a woman to approach them.. Especially nowadays.. Not many guys would feel emasculated with a woman showing clear and honest interest..

[Pohjolan]

Firstly supply Vs demand. Most gals don't have a need to make moves.

Secondly many don't comprehend that making a move and plausible deniability are mutually exclusive options so they do things that are close to making moves but not very different from what cockteasers do.

[LiamJHayden]

Because the average women has far more suitors than the average guy, the average guy needs to put forth more effort or get passed over.

[SeriouslyNotSerious]

Top secret: it makes us feel more feminine, and that guy making the first move will look very manly to us. He is brave enough to risk — may it be a yes or a no answer from the lady. That's hot. 🥵

[Unycorn]

Be Brave...

It is not impossible that a woman makes the first step

[Anonymous]

The problem is in damn patriarchy.

Patriarchal upbringing teaches girls to be passive/submissive - that's why most of them won't make the first move.

Without patriarchy, there would be more dominant girls, and shy guys like me and you would easily get a girlfriend, because girls would start taking initiative.

[Anonymous]

It won't surprise me if men will forever be stuck with this role whether they hate it or not and because of the State of Affairs being that way between men and women that's more than likely the main reason why the forever alone community and Virgin community is male-dominated and that's why Hollywood made that Infamous movie with Steve Carell in which the title character was a guy male

[AviatorTom]

Simple physics. The cylinder goes into the hole, not the other way around. You plug in an electric cord, don't you, no one waits for the wall outlet to pull in the cord.

[Anonymous]

Guys want to have sex with me and I'm not going to make the first move so if they're ever going to have sex with me they're going to have to do it.

[Asker]

Why aren't you going to make the first move?

[Anonymous]

LOL! So you just want us to make it easier for you.

"Guys would feel much better about themselves" that is a you problem. Not a me problem.

[Asker]

Just out of curiousity, how may guys have you asked on a date and how many said no?

[HighValue]

Men are expected to be traditional while women think it is fine for them to be very low quality, immoral, garbage people.

[Rangers]

Cause girls want guys to be decisive and stubborn and the cold, hard truth is that guys want a woman to love way more than women want a man to love. So it goes their way

[JohnKebab]

Because if the woman made the first move it would make the man look weak, it's the same way how women expect the man to pay for dinner, women just love the feeling that a man can take care of her, as girls love to be taken care of.

[FunkyMonkee]

Supposedly, if a girl makes the first move, she could be seen as a whore. Mustn't let THAT happen!!

[AbbyWinter09]

Because that's just how it is and it always will be till the end of time, it's either you man up and get her to date you or you wuss out and never get the girl, your choice.

[beefcakebradybatson]

Part of the hunter (male) vs. nurturer (female) historical perspective which still finds itself expressed in beginning relationships.

[NervousIndividual]

There are women out there who ask the man out first.

[Anonymous]

Because women are supposed to act innocent. When women act like a douche she will be out of sight.

[Asker]

That's certainly not my experience.
A lot of shallow guys seem to hit more on girls who are outwardly sexual in how they dress an flirt.

[Opinion Owner]

Slutty outfit is just an invitation

[Anonymous]

The Shadow masters prefer it that way.