Unattractive Things Guys Say/Do To Impress Others

[Anonymous]

1. Call other men "Beta males" to make yourself look tough. It doesn't make you look tough, it makes you look like an over-compensating, insecure wannabe. I often imagine a highschool kid who goes to gym just to post a selfie of his shirtless body onto Facebook because no one cares enough to compliment him in reality. Just don't do it. No one actually cares whether a man is beta or alpha, you don't get brownie points for calling others this to bring attention to yourself. It doesn't work

2. Call women "females" or a different "species" right before flattering us. Putting us on a higher pedestal isn't right, nor does anyone like a suck-up. It's more so creepy and confusing as we normally don't think of segregating ourselves from you.

3. Showing aggression to other men to assert dominance, or calling other women ugly sluts to compliment the girl you want. Screaming unnatural, unnecessary, unfriendly & locked-up child vibes here. Considering we have friends of both sexes that you're being rude to, and you're acting like you hate everyone but us, it's pretty obvious why this doesn't work, and yet, it's a common go-to move.

4. Posting pictures of yourself at the gym with a stern (constipated?) expression. I mean, I get wanting to look tough, because men are constantly told to act dominant/masculine, but the frown doesn't actually get the ladies. If anything, I've heard more girls say they like a boy's smile, and I can confirm I've never heard "I love that look he gives me when he wants to stab me... Or perhaps reach for more laxatives".

5. Walk up to 10 girls and ask each of them out, then come online and say women are sluts who just want to be beat up by abusers. I assure you, none of the long-lasting couples I know started with a man going up to women for their looks & started a marathon of asking them out. They were all co-workers, knew each other through social groups and once they experienced an intimate/close bond, they THEN started asking each other out. I don't know why people who don't get out much think a random girl on the street is your best chance of success. It isn't. Actually being apart of events, social groups, being active in the community & work/volunteering are some of the best ways to meet someone, GET TO KNOW THEM FOR WHO THEY ARE, and then date. You don't date for the sake of dating; you meet someone, like them, then want to be with them. If you wanted to shop for a girl, then go do just that. Don't expect it in a random girl you don't know who doesn't sleep around for money or primarily concerned with getting you laid.

& If love is what you want, why would asking out a million pretty girls you don't know be the answer?

I wish you all the best.

[Onidandal]

I agree with this in principle. It's not how I've experienced reality. Keep in mind, that I have a generalized view based on my experiences around dating and romance. All men and women are different, but tend towards average acceptable/desirable behavior.

Your first point is a basic callout of 'dominant' behavior among those who wish to place labels on such. It's pathetic, but it works because it's a basic form of exerting your will on another human being. I believe it's called hyperagency, but I could be wrong. It's a trait associated with leaders, thus it's considered attractive. It makes me retch, but a vocal crowd of women also use 'alpha' and 'beta' to describe guys, so that urges guys to continue the behavior.

Your second point is about dehumanizing behavior. The key thing about attractiveness, as a generalization on the guy's side, is to never be degrading about dehumanizing behavior. It's why 'pursuer/pursued' or 'winner/prize' get used, rather than 'human/subject'. This can be seen in a dynamic as simple as starting the dating phase, with the bulk of responsibility for pursuing, planning, and paying being on the guy. This mindset bleeds into colloquial thinking and phrasing, and thus, the term 'female' starts sprouting up colloquially. It's disgusting, but there's a vocal crowd of women that enjoys being the objectified prize, so that urges guys to continue the behavior.

Your third point is about the enforcement of positions of dominance and prize, respectively. The idea with this is to both enforce your position as top-dog, and to make her feel better about her position as the top prize using your own authority. It's a basic manipulation tactic, which is tying your worth to them. It's toxic, but there's a vocal crowd of women that responds positively to being the best prize a man can get, so that urges guys to continue the behavior.

Your fourth point is about what dominance looks like aesthetically. Male models don't do a lot of smiling. The best results on a dating profile for guys come from not smiling, among other factors. Constipation is trying too hard, but even that can get some attention. Literally, my best Tinder picture was of me holding a beer, wearing my hawaiian shirt and skinny jeans, looking away from the camera, and not smiling. I was told to not smile by the very women taking my Tinder picture. I haven't used Tinder in a while, because I'd rather be a human. My point still stands. Women in general find smiles to be less sexually attractive, so that urges guys to continue the behavior.

Your fifth point is simply the nature of the dating game. While people walk up less, the role of pursuer is kept in dating apps and making the first move in a group of people before it's too late. That is usually the guy's job. Not always, but usually. There is a vocal crowd of women who actively shame men who don't approach, with the line: "If he doesn't have the balls to come and ask me out, I never wanted to be with him to begin with.' So this urges guys to continue the behavior.

I noted that you seem to put more emphasis on bonds. Which I can appreciate. I'd like to acknowledge reality, and change the system of dating to be focused less on animalistic lust and outdated mindsets, and more on the bonds that bring people together. Because as you've said, you can't expect a long-lasting bond to come from asking out 50+ people in the hopes of netting someone. You can't expect a long-lasting bond to come from asking someone out on the street.

We need more people like you, and your circle of friends. I want to be hopeful about the future.

[myTake Owner]

No worries, I'll be sure to keep in mind your note about it being generally-speaking. Same for this MyTake tbh.

1. That's interesting, I hadn't heard of hyperagency before, I'll look it up later. I agree with the whole dominant qualities being found in leaders, thus that's why they behave that way in theory, with the whole beta labelling- it just sounds right to me if that's what hyperagency is. But, I can't agree with the conclusion that women are drawn to it in THIS specific example of guys calling others beta's. I think the reason why I agree with your premise but not in this example is that the guys who ATTEMPT to look dominant this specific way actually fail at looking like dominant leaders. It comes off more as "douchey" or "wannabe".

2. I don't disagree at all here, it's too true that there's a certain type of woman that does like being out on this pedestal. The only thing I have to contribute, in line with before, is that it's just not the majority of women. Also calling someone "female" over and over again makes you feel... weird? Confused? A ringing sound of "why does he keep doing that?" gets loud😂 Makes you feel like the guy is inexperienced. Imagine if a girl kept calling others "you males ____" in every sentence, I'm sure it also wouldn't rub off the right way to the average high-esteemed (is that a word?) person.

3. Yep, again, there's definitely a type of women who like this behaviour, but not the majority. I think the difference between those who do & don't are the experienced and the inexperienced. Ohhh! Also, those who have guy friends and those don't have guy friends. Cause if you're a friendly girl who befriends guys just normally, you're not gonna want some to come and diss them, unlike a girl who might dislike guys or have none to feel bad for. Probs goes the same way with girls who are threatened by other girls.

4. Ooooh this one is the only one so far that I stronglyy disagree against in every way, but thats absolutely subjective!

[myTake Owner]

Sorry, word limit.
But yeah anyway, just because I don't agree with the fourth thing, it doesn't mean at all you should stop, I'm sure you rocked your Hawaiian shirt with or without a smile.

5. I can see that as being one of the reasons why men do it, it's very much a societal birthed move; agreed. That I agree with, though, unfortunately there seems to be other more disrespectful reasons other guys do it, as you can see from some of the comments I've received. But as always, those guys are in the minority & I don't take what their disrespectful words say to heart, nor at all perceive it as an accurate representation of all men.

Awww thank you so much! Your comment was really in-depth and a really good read of its own. I don't do many Questions or Mytakes, but im gonna give you a follow just in case you do ever release Mytakes 👌

[SteveSmith1985]

Well I have to say. I completely agree.

I'm an argumentative and opinionated guy by nature. I almost never "agree completely" with anything. I certainly can't remember ever agreeing completely with anything of this length, where so many different (arguable? Controversial?) views were expressed.

I even read it twice just to make sure. I'm afraid I can't find anything at all to disagree with. Not one single minor point. I was even looking pretty hard for something.

There is something I don't like here though. Well I guess it doesn't matter quite as much by my age anyway. But... I've always enjoyed the fact that so many guys are clueless idiots when it comes to "trying to impress women".

If you successfully teach these idiots, not to be idiots... It makes thing that much more crowded for those of us who were born non-idiot. I suppose we just have a different interest in the matter.

I get why you posted this anonymously. Men have gotten fucking WEIRD with this whole women-hating "men's rights" garbage.

I don't know what's going on with all THAT, but that shit is... Really messed up so yea I get the anonymity.

At the same time... You sound awesome and I kinda wish I knew who you were. I think you're just the kind of GAGer who I would like to follow.

After you check my other posts to make sure I'm not really an undercover agent sent by the 'manosphere" (such a dumb name; such a dumb thing). And after the heat over this inflammatory post dies down a bit... Perhaps, you might consider... Revealing yourself by following ME? See then I could follow you... And... well... you get it. 🙂

[myTake Owner]

Hmmm that's an interesting perspective, I never thought of it that they way (the whole concept of then having overcrowded "non-idiots"). I guess I just don't mind ever more smart guys in the world because I'd theorise they wouldn't "try" so hard if someone was in a relationship already or walk up to 20 girls to expect results, you know?

Also, I really appreciate the compliments, I get it, I can be very opinionated too😁 I guess I wouldn't mind doing the follow-thing, but I actually comment more on others questions then actually posting my own takes and questions. That said, I'll definitely give you a follow✌️

[Anonymous]

I hate the Beta male thing. If a man shows any amount of sensitivity toward women he's a target of the "alpha" male guys.

Not impressed by money or gifts it is the every day things. Will he come change my flat if I'm on the side of the highway or send a company to do it for me.

No pics standing next to cars on dating sites.

I think I went off topic a bit.

[myTake Owner]

I agree that the small gestures matter more than gifts, though I don't think he'd need to personally come over to do it. But I definitely agree with the general belief of small gestures over gifts👌

Haahah yeah I guess some really like there cars

[LuWe22]

So true. Everyone who says he is a alpha male it is a instant turn off.

[myTake Owner]

It makes my skin crawl with the cringe!

[TonyBologna25]

Some men are actually beta, and to suggest there's not a social hierarchy is asinine. Are we not allowed to acknowledge any part of social hierarchy, or just this part? Who's the alpha here? Pat Tillman who was a former NFL star and member of US Special forces who was killed in combat or black bear dancing around like a fucking fairy bitching about his ex in this music video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfzlUHOFQ5k

What's wrong with using the word female in an accurate context?

Showing aggression is a part of male dominance and it's how we as the male species operate on a biological level. We are surely more evolved than cavemen, but it's only natural. To suggest that a man is absent of all aggression is to suggest a man lacking normal testosterone levels. Aggression comes in a lot of different formats, and it's not all violent. I'm aggressive in my day to day career and I'm very competitive. It's pretty normal for healthy young men to be this way. A man who doesn't have any competitive edge and doesn't assert any aggression at all in his life is the word you hate... a beta male.

A stern look on your face? Fucking a lol. You know how some women have rested bitch face and can't control it? The same applies for some men. I'm told I look fucking mean and intimidating when I'm simply relaxing and having a good time telling jokes. I don't smile in many pics and after you've had friends blow up and have been shot at a couple times... it's sort of a certain look that develop. If you're not attracted to me because I look too stern, then you can go find yourself a nice hipster soyboy.

I agree with your last point to an extent, a bitterness is a weak emotion... but having said that, there is a reason as to why a lot of good guys are frustrated in the dating scene today. Third-wave feminism and hookup culture has really ruined the dynamic between men and women. Women are just as frustrated. And lastly, there are a lot of sluts out there male and female. The word can still be applied in the appropriate context.

You're entitled to your beliefs, and what you're attracted to. Absolutely you are. Having said that, I am too. Women that share the same values that you do are unattractive to me. They want to feminize men and are easily triggered and typically emotionally driven. Alpha-males and type-A personalities typically make women like you feel inferior and insecure because you simply can't keep up. Confidence, assertion, decisiveness, and a respectable demeanor should be things that are encouraged in male culture.

[myTake Owner]

I'm not gonna bother with the first two considering you're either purposely ignoring the point because you're extremely defensive, or the point just went over your head for those two.

Lmfao, so basically you're aggressive because you haven't evolved from the caveman days? Okay. In all seriousness, you can be as aggressive as you want, but don't expect a normal man or woman to not laugh at someone who's trying too hard to impress a woman by being... a rude & aggressive douche.

I can't believe you just used both "soyboy" and "beta" to raise your own image. But you know what, your projection strategy is working, I sure am getting the feel of who you are😂 Resting bitch face is different to posing for a photo with a stern face though🤔 But regardless, this was only a subjective view. By all means, keep posing the way you want to, it's your photo, your face, your right.

Hookup culture is definitely clouding the scene, that's why I suggest avoiding the street-shopping approach & just live your life prioritising yourself over the need to find a woman at a specific place and time. I agree with the slut comment. So I feel that promotes my point more, really. Best bet is to just go out and socialise with your mates, and if there's a girl there who you like & likes you back; flirting and intimacy will happen~

Nope, I do not want to feminize men, if that's what you took from this take, you can either re-read after noting that's not what I wrote at all, or you can stop bothering with me, whatever you like. If I was as easily triggered as you pretend I am, I would not have the different social circles that I have now, nor a happy relationship. If anything, you want to be desperately acknowledged for your "alpha" qualities to the point that you need to tell other people which guy is a soyboy or beta. Which is funny considering earlier you were talking about the "good guys". Riddle me how you consider yourself one if you're out there shitting on guys that are different to you🤔

[TonyBologna25]

I’m out right now, but I’m an engineer and working professional. Not a cave man.

[myTake Owner]

Note; I was raised with those "type A personalities" you're ridiculously labelling. Can't fear or feel inferior to my beloved brothers & father, can I? The difference between them & you is that you need to TELL people you're alpha. They show it. You're the kind of guy I was talking about above, not dominant men. The kind of guy who doesn't intimidate nobody with his actions, just attempts so rudely with his words, & brings down other men of his sex. There is your misunderstanding and why you thought I was implying dominant men are to be discouraged. No. Just ones like you.

[TonyBologna25]

Who did I say I was alpha to?

[myTake Owner]

You've implied many times in your response that you are. You should be allowed to acknowledge social hierarchy by saying you're alpha and others are beta, you don't like women who are trying to feminise men (even though I never wrote that, implied that, nor want that), you say men who aren't dominant and aggressive are beta soyboys.

You didn't (& aren't) say you were alpha in those direct words, but you'd be otherwise implying you're the beta soyboy character that you're being unnecessarily rude to. Which don't get me wrong, would be an epic plot twist, but that's not what your prejudice against "soyboys" and the lack of defense of the "beta's" on the bottom of the hierarchy is saying here.

[TonyBologna25]

This has little to do with me as an individual, and everything to with how I disagree with some of the modern culture I see. I work in a very progressive area, so what I’m seeing in society could be amplified to a higher extent than you. it’s bring other men up rather than down. I’m sick of feminism and modern culture telling men to act a certain way and demonizing men for simply being men. It’s irritates me. Just like you, I was raised with strong male figures in my life and I’m thankful for it. A lot of society doesn’t even get that because of divorce rates and children being raised only by single mothers. There’s a lot of causation here we can talk about.

Also, it’s kind of personal with the male equivalent of rested bitch face. A lot of people try and start shit with me because I look a certain way. I can’t tell you how many clubs I’ve been to and two guys are staring me down like they want to fight when I’m just trying to enjoy myself. My head is on a swivel so to speak. I have a look that has gotten me in trouble in a lot of places and it’s beyond my control. It’s frustrating. It’s normal to have these mannerisms in the military, but not so much civilian life.

Also with the whole gym thing, when I was bodybuilding in college, I took a lot pics for gram, but what people failed to realize is that this was my life. I spent four hours training some days and a lot of my friends did the same. We were just living our best life and sharing it on social media. Can’t stand it when insecure people get on the comments saying we’re just bragging and attention seeking.

Like if you were a dancer, and did all these competitions, would you just be arrogant as hell if you posted pics from these competitions and you in the studio with friends? It’s really the same concept.

[myTake Owner]

Oops, that's second paragraph was supposed to start with "perhaps", so without it you can ignore the "(& aren't)".

[TonyBologna25]

If a good portion of my life was bodybuilding at the time, and I can’t post pics of it without being called arrogant, you’re pretty much telling me that I can’t even share my life on social media.

[TonyBologna25]

You can gather whatever implication you seek to from what I’ve said.

[myTake Owner]

"what I’m seeing in society could be amplified to a higher extent than you" - see... This... Wasn't needed at all😂 Here's the trend with you, you think that if you tell other people why a certain part of you is superior, it's not only true, but that you'll think that's something "civilians" need to hear. In reality, it's irrelevant and random assumptions that were given out of nowhere. Most importantly: no one cares that you're superior in that aspect; true or not. Your need to tell people it speaks volumes.

Anyway, sidetracked there a bit. So as for your resting bitch face- again. I have no problem with resting bitch faces. Again, that's not what I meant in my point. Again, I don't equate resting bitch face in regular life to someone who purposely puts on a stern face when posing for a photo. Make sense? Ergo, I am not that person that's going to judge you if I see you walking around with a bitch face. Those guys that would start shit with you at the club? In that situation, THOSE guys are the aggressive assholes I've said I'd dislike. And THOSE guys are the ones you, regardless of knowing, are defending in my other points. Doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end of aggression now, does it? Frustrates you, but here you are saying men should be like that. And stupidly pretending that I said men should be more feminine.
The ONLY person her demonising men is you, because you can't stand it when a guy (without a woman telling them to be that way) is more feminine than you. You blame it on me, but you're calling the people of your own sex soyboys if they're not as aggressive as those fucking idiots who staunch you at the club; aka you. Because you're doing the same thing with your words to those less dominant men. And for what? What the fuck did they do to you? As little as you did to those guys for having a resting bitch face.

[myTake Owner]

"You can gather whatever implication you seek to from what I’ve said." Lmfao right back at you when you pretend I'm trying to feminise men for saying "hey guys, don't try to be assholes to other men". Literally. That's it. That's all you needed to hear fEmInIsM, when ain't nobody here gives a damn about feminism or brought it up (other than you). You clearly have problems with other women & putting that load onto me.

[TonyBologna25]

I actually encourage men to be themselves if you’ve read any of my content on here in the last five years. Part of being a man is self acceptance and staying true to who you are. I believe that there should be structure to life but to let people be themselves. The liberals out here are a little more on the extreme side and these soy boys are some of the in your face and judgements pricks. They demonize men who are superior in some way by calling them neadrathals and animals when in reality, they just have normal testosterone levels. You just did the same thing to me.

I think men are being ridiculed by leftist society in a lot of ways and culture is definitely trying to feminize modern men. I don’t stand for it. Ill strongly oppose it any day. Millennial men need to stop taking advice from feminist women on how to be men and just be themselves.

If you want to just try to tear down my character, and who I am because of a difference of socetial views, then go ahead, but I don’t want to participate. Rather have an actual constructive discussion

[TonyBologna25]

I have great women in my life. Love my mother very much and my sister. Don’t have an issue with women. Your views align with a lot of feminist propaganda that we’re seeing today.

[myTake Owner]

I'm not the one tearing down men, YOU are. It's to the extent that you've fooled yourself into not considering those less dominant men as men. Everytime you say you wanna make sure men can be themselves, you're excluding the less dominant men as lumping them ALL together as soyboys, and even worse than that, assuming that all of them are all the same judgmental person. All without realising you JUST judged them altogether.

I said don't be rude to your fellow guys, and you heard fEmIniSt PrOpAgAnDa, even though I've told you twice now I'm not even a feminist. YOU are judging ME. I never came up to you and assumed you were the "alpha" who went around being rude to other men; YOU came to this MyTake and read that message TO OTHER people who do that, and automatically assumed I was targeting you for being dominant. You thought wrong. And that's why I'm telling you. From the moment you came here, you mistook me talking to jerks for talking to all dominant men, and in the process of responding you took it upon yourself to insult and lesser dominant man- to which you're surprised at me defending. Dominant men are great (just as non-dominant men), YOUR specific behaviour is not.

You came here to defend dominant men because you assumed I was attacking them, but in reality you came here and defended the very men you get frustrated with at clubs. Additionally accusing me and trying to insult me as being some other feminists you've had problems with, even though I am not one.
You need to take a step back now, think a little bit as to what I'm saying next to plan your next course of action: you can be as dominant as you want, you will be NO LESS attractive for it. But if you try to tear down less-dominant men in the process, that's another thing entirely. Is this understood? You don't have to agree, but don't ever try to change the meaning of what people are saying.

[myTake Owner]

Too long to read: Go ahead & dominant. But do not insult other men if they are not. Dominant is attractive, asshole is not. And the two aren't the same thing.
If you don't agree, fine, but don't change my words & pretend I'm a feminist for this original meaning to my words. Nothing else was implied despite your assumptions. You thought it? No worries, but you were wrong and I'm clarifying to you now how I actually think.

[TonyBologna25]

This is what I mean. Where in this did I insult you on a personal level in an attempt to gain leverage. You have no idea what kind of man I am or what I believe in other than this post and you’re flawing my personal character because we have a difference in societal views.

[myTake Owner]

No no, you're flawing me by assuming I demonise men (which I don't, I defended both dominant and non-dominant men, see above), and you also flawed me for being a feminist even though I've told youve assumed that incorrectly more than once.

As to where you insulted me, I don't hold any grudges, but you can look at where exactly you've said something to me that's not true by reading where I pointed that out.

I do not know what kind of man you are other than this post, correct. I've only responded to sentences you've given me.
So again: disagreeing is fine, just do not alter my words.

[I-C3_ME]

First of i wish a good day to u

Ok i don't think I've called another guy "beta", however when i look back a couple years i was "beta" myself, i don't mean it in a bad way it just described me as a person. Then the whole "changed my life around blah blah blah" (we all know the stories) so back to my point, although i don't think alpha & beta are terms to be used to judge, i do think we can use them to describe as in religion u may like some features of a religion but that doesn't mean u hate it.

The other points u have my 100% support, all expect 4 are not "alpha" things to do, the are just "a****ole" things to do. Not 4 because your not hurting anyone & frankly i could care less about the "fitness" of some other guys body

[myTake Owner]

Thank you, I hope you have a great day too!
Yeeeah, that's a good point. They're fine terms when you use them for yourself, or if you're using it in a non-judgemental context😊

For sure I understand why 4 isn't quite right for you or others, it's probably the most subjective point here in this list. No harm done, you're right 👌

[TenPoundTabby]

Agreed, although #4 isn't meant as a look at the woman. It's meant more as an expression of identity. All guys want to exude strength in some way, but if all a guy has is tough/stern pics, again, you're right. He needs to look approachable and like he can laugh.

[myTake Owner]

True, I agree with you in hindsight, if he has other approachable photos, it's not really much of problem at all :)

[btbc92]

Amen! That's how they never get the girl they want. Or any relationship at all. Let alone get married. It's not masculine at all. It's flat out arrogance and ignorance. Only other shallow, immoral, ignorant and an arrogant girls will fall for such a person and actually like it. What a naive ones they sadly have to live and let learn. I respect any man who grows out of this ignorance.

[myTake Owner]

Agreed, those types of men and women truly deserve each other

[Swat_]

Really interesting take. There are lots of videos and posts out there telling guys to behave in x or y way to stay competitive towards other guys. There is so much conflicting information in these that its hard to tell what women really want or how men should really behave. I think hearing the opinions of girls on this topic is pretty important.

[myTake Owner]

Im glad you liked it :) Yeaah I definitely understand the confusion so many different perspectives bring, so I'll make sure to next time (not that I think there will be a next time, this take was more of a impulsive first) reiterate how this is my mere opinion, not fact. Particularly the gym one!😁 Also goes without saying some men aren't the only ones that can improve, some women also have lots to learn!

[Idontknow012]

I only call beta 1 guy all my life, just because in 1 month he hit 5 girs... 1 week with each, just to try to bang and he bang... the last girl wich was so naive that fall for the trap and was like "he really likes me" lol (even the other girls were like "how she likes him he was saying that to me last week"

when i talk to her and relationships come to the convo i always say how that guy was a beta just bc goes against my morals is desperate moves not to bring attention to myself and she agrees because he left her lol

[myTake Owner]

Aww I'm so glad you were able to encourage her out of a bad relationship :) I think he would've deserved so many swear words and I would've cheered that on😂 Just be careful because calling a jerk like him a Beta degrades your own image and also affects how you see other guys. Just don't go down that path, it's not worth it~

But no, well done bro 👍

[MainePrincess]

I think it's pathetically adorable when certain stupid boys with really low self-esteem desperately try to better themselves in their own eyes by being a total ass. They never learn that trying so hard to seem tough while whining all of the time just make them the topic of many laughs among women

[myTake Owner]

Agreed, it's really odd when they tear other guys or girls down to do that😅

[Jamie05rhs]

Well, please forgive me, but with all due respect, I just don't understand the whole "being friends first" thing. I never have. Because how can you be friends with someone and have that be the definition of your relationship and then transition into having a romantic relationship? This is an honest question; I'm not trying to be contrarian or give you a hard time.

[myTake Owner]

Thank you for asking nicely :)
So firstly, I never said "best friends" although that's another possibility too.
I said you get to know people first, you socialise with them, get to know them, you can befriend them or at least be aquaintences with them, and eventually if there's a mutual interest you'll both flirt or show signs of intimacy. As I've said, I know about 6 couples in my volunteering social group who have done this and transitioned into successful long relationships, myself included. I didn't look for a boyfriend in my friends, I just naturally grew intimate with someone who also liked me back. For who we are. And we knew each other which greatly contributes to staying together for a long-term relationship.

[Jamie05rhs]

Interesting. Okay

[jirwin7979]

i treat everyone how i want to be treated i dont say anything bad about anyone and if i dont have anything nice to say i keep my yaper box shut... at times i feel more like a girl stuck in a guys body but i know once the right girl comes in my life she will be the happiest girl on earth

[myTake Owner]

Awww, I think we should all be like you :)

[jirwin7979]

that makes 2 of us but than we would not be unique or different

[myTake Owner]

Touché

[Prof_Don]

You’re absolutely dead wrong about point number 5.

Men HAVE to ask out women in large quantities, or else we will be perpetually single.

We as men go through many “no’s” to get the occasional / rare “yes”.

The “get to know her first” is a one-way ticket to Friend Zone.

[myTake Owner]

Considering I've seen a couple jerks here, I'm honestly just thankful for your non-insulting way of putting this.

But I'll agree to disagree considering as a very social person who's encountered many social men; many of my friends have successfully gotten into long-lasting relationships on their first or second try. I'm talking about social circles where chemistry naturally begins. Intimacy naturally grows. It's actually really simple, if you're not attracted to someone, you're not gonna date them, but that doesn't apply to every person of the opposite sex. Just socialise and be apart of the community, otherwise you're of course not going to get someone and you'll of course have to resort to online dating or street-shopping for women. You don't try to get a girlfriend, you just do your thing and you'll find someone you connect with, and then you want to be with them. That's the thing I don't think some people are missing from what im saying. The more you forcefully try to look for someone, the more weird it is and it would've never been about you two, but rather trying to find ANYONE that will like you back. Which of course will result in short-term relationships. (Generally). Online dating and streets work, but they don't achieve the best results, so all I'm trying to say about that is: by all means, go for online dating and street pickups if you're comfortable with that, but don't expect the best results. Why? Because it doesn't show the best side of you. And the more failures you receive, the more disheartened you come, which sometimes gives birth to incels. They don't get that it's not their fault, nor the girls' for not being instantly in love. They just aren't using the best method/mindset. That's all :)

[myTake Owner]

Ooooftttt. I'm so sorry for that block of paragraph 😅😅 Accident ramble. Feel free to not read it.

[Prof_Don]

I read the whole block!

[myTake Owner]

Bruh hahahaha! You're much more patient than I am😂👌👏

[Anonymous]

"They were all co-workers, knew each other through social groups and once they experienced an intimate/close bond, they THEN started asking each other out."
But that's impractical. They can't just wait around for that to happen.

"If love is what you want, why would asking out a million pretty girls you don't know be the answer?"
Because it feels necessary. Because it feel practical.

The take away is that men and women's experience is completely different and you're speaking from what you would like the situation to be as a woman, not what the conditioned experience is as a man.

[myTake Owner]

Yes, yes you can. Cause you shouldn't be just sitting and waiting for love to come to you. You should be out there, socialising, having fun, prioritising your life and work, and naturally when there comes a time you like someone and they like you back, you start flirting or showing signs of interest in one another.

It feels necessary because that's the only option you're giving yourself. Nobody told you to go shop for women on the streets, it's the one you brought upon yourself.

If that was the take away, then I'd be the one on the streets and a man came to ask me out on the streets. Since you're speaking from the perspective of the man, you'd be asking me out on the street, huh? But that's not the take away, cause if you actually understood, I'd be the one chilling with my friends and you'd be right beside me, playing with my hand & chatting with me near our friends.

[Opinion Owner]

"Yes, yes you can."
See this is what I'm talking about, you think just "having fun" and whatnot is "just waiting", well that works for you, not for guys and it's because guys aren't "just waiting for something to happen there. It's an active effort to create the opportunities and to seize upon them where you thought it just happen stance. That's the work we do; to make it feel natural. A guy can't just wait for a girl to fall into his lap. When he's interested in meeting some, he is "on". Doesn't matter where you are, even at work, it's not something that just happens; the only way anything happens with any reliability is because he put in the effort to make it so.

"It feels necessary because that's the only option you're giving yourself."
It feels unnecessary to you because it's not an option you need to consider. You think most guys haven't tried everything at one point or another? It's necessary because girls have told them through conditioning that it's necessary. If a guy goes through life not putting any effort into getting himself into the right places at the right times with the right things to say then it's very realistic to go unnoticed for years. You can wait to get noticed, but it's impractical for a guy, whether it's at work or wherever, he can't just wait.

"If that was the take away, then I'd be the one on the streets and a man came to ask me out on the streets"
Not sure what you're trying to say here.

" if you actually understood, I'd be the one chilling with my friends and you'd be right beside me, playing with my hand & chatting with me near our friends."
If you actually understood then you'd know that nothing about that is be just waiting, if that's the situation I'm in then it's because I made active efforts to put myself there and have my game face on and everything else that entails. If you think that "just happens" naturally with any regularity then that's because I've the job effectively to hit all the right notes at all the right timings.

[Opinion Owner]

Guys know that girls don't respond well to just making a hamfisted move too quickly, and so guys learn the need to seize of opportunities to make things happen, more than that, they learn they need to massage the circumstances to *make* opportunities present themselves. They can't wait for the fates to grant them a lottery win.

[myTake Owner]

"See this is what I'm talking about, you think just "having fun" and whatnot is "just waiting"" - Umm... I specifically said you SHOULDN'T be waiting around for love. Like... literally in the same sentence you just replied to. Having fun and living your life does not equate to waiting for love. It shouldn't be something you're looking for every woman that passes you, do you get me? That's what I'm saying. Next, that's how it was for me... AND my partner. See, it takes two to get into a relationship, remember?😂 my partner IS a guy. So yes, guys too can also just be living their life and get close to a woman- Shocking, isn't it? You simply haven't been living with that mindset, you've be convinced by media that you need to go woman-shopping, but little did you know that no damn couple I know actuallyy started a relationship that way- and since you didn't get it the first two times; that includes the GUY in the relationships too. They literally were chilling or working in their social/work environment when along came this girl who likes him and he likes her, and they flirt, and then they get intimate, and then they get together. ALL of them. Might I add, the friend that does tend to go on dates with men who come up to her on the street is one of the only single ones. Why? Cause that's not how good relationships start😂 You don't know each other, of course the likelihood of that turning into a long relationship will be low.

For as long as you trying to scope out women for your "game" as you call it, you are going to be disappointed and YOU will be forcing yourself into that corner. Society is no longer telling you this, you are now just religiously following it and blaming it for obvious failures. You aren't showing someone who loves you or could love you your actual potential or good side. You're trying to force women, ANY woman you like the looks of, to see your good sides. Well, of fking course that won't work in the longrun. Love THEN date. Don't date THEN love.

[myTake Owner]

"Guys know that girls don't respond well to" stooooop. Girls aren't a game. GUYS aren't a game either. It sounds like you're spitting out textbook theories. These do not work. Girls, like guys, are many a people. There's not one type of girl. Stop trying to read women like the manual in a game. You're single because you're forcing yourself to understand the wrong thing.

[Opinion Owner]

"Having fun and living your life does not equate to waiting for love."
Well in my original comment that's what I'm stipulating. It *is* waiting relative to what most guys do. There's another level of effort there. You might think that having fun and all that isn't waiting, okay I accept that you think that, but I'm saying that's girl's experience of it and guys will consider that just waiting relative to what they feel they do.

"guys too can also just be living their life and get close to a woman- Shocking, isn't it?"
I didn't say it was impossible to fall into anything. But I don't think you did just fall into that without any effort from him. You could have, but it would be an exception.

"you've be convinced by media that you need to go woman-shopping"
No, the media tells me never to speak to women. That men are usually just creeps if they try anything. That I oppress them with my existence. That I should be ashamed for my heterosexuality. Since when does to media encourage me to go "woman-shopping"?

"the friend that does tend to go on dates with men who come up to her on the street is one of the only single ones"
I'm not really talking about approaching women in the street. One of the first things you learn as a guy is that women have a stickup their butt about being approached like that. I'm saying even the "oh we just met at work" couples required an active role beyond "just living life." I can go to work, I can go to class or wherever, but just living my life doesn't mean I'm interacting with people in meaningful ways. I could go to work, get on with the job and show be polite, then go home and nothing comes of it.

[Opinion Owner]

All my success with girls and making friends came from me going out of my way to be engaging, to be funny, to have things to talk about, to come up with things to invite people to, to put myself in circumstances where I can meet girls under the guise that it's "natural". All girls had to do was turn up and be receptive, guys have to be *on*, they have to work for it.

" your "game" as you call it"
Just because I said game doesn't mean it's not serious. That's just the term that's used. It is a sort of game, guys are presented with hoops to jump through and tasks to accomplish. Though I guarantee it's not them that wants to be playing it. Women are setting up the same, so how can I not play? For the vast majority of guys it's play women's game or die alone.

"Society is no longer telling you this"
You have no idea what society is telling me. In my experience it's extremely common for women to think men are being pressured in specific ways when really they have no clue at all. If anything you've been told by "society" what society tells me, but I don't think you know.

"You aren't showing someone who loves you or could love you your actual potential or good side."
Of course I am. That's the point, I'm basically running my own marketing campaign to advertise myself whenever I'm around other people and it's work. It's like a politician going to a charity event; it's not that they don't actually care about the charity work, but really the idea is that they are seen doing it and have positive interactions with everyone for the cameras. It's not that I'm being dishonest about my policies or that I don't genuinely care about the charity, but I do still have to be *on* when running for office. That's what it means.

[Opinion Owner]

The vast majority of guys can't just love then date without effort, I'm saying to even get to that love stage was through effort and intent. And yes, of course you felt like it was just natural and then you started dating, that's the idea, part of it is me making that happen and having it feel natural and wholesome as it does. I'd don't approach women in the street and try to date then love. I engage with classmates and girls I work with over weeks and months to build a relationship and that's work. That's not just me living my life, that's me trying to build what I want. I've been the extremely socially anxious person and now I'm often the social guy at the table trying to be inclusive to the people I recognise as being closed off.

I'm writing a lot but basically I'm not "just living my life", I am *on*, I am working at this and I have to, while it's not a necessity for women. This is what I mean when I say it's necessary and practical in my original reply.

"Girls aren't a game."
You're hearing it as a game and like it's a problem. Do men and women have trends in the way the behave or not? Yes, there are lot of different people, but if there are trends and preferences then obviously reacting the that is fine. You yourself just posted a list of 5 things not to do to impress others -- that's because of trends and preferences, so obviously saying that "there are many poeple" is just hollow. Obviously peopel are different but we can understand trends. You just don't like the word "game", but it doesn't mean we're not serious, so please stop with that talk.

"you're forcing yourself to understand the wrong thing. "
And what is the right thing?
I think you don't try to understand guys' perspective as someetehing different to your own. But please do tell me what I'm doing wrong even though I had the most success taking the active role and doing the work.

[myTake Owner]

"I didn't say it was impossible to fall into anything. But I don't think you did just fall into that without any effort from him. You could have, but it would be an exception." so basically anything that hasn't happened to you is an exception. You know what? Okay. If that's what you feel, I can't do anything for you. This is how socialising works, really, at least in my multiple differing circles. I won't keep hammering this to you until you believe it, cause that's not right, nor should you blindly believe anything; the best way is to experience it after all.

This is a lot of reading & it's pretty late here, so im going to cut my answers short (if I can stop running my mouth).
"That I should be ashamed for my heterosexuality" - lmao this is all I needed to hear to see the major exaggerations and manipulation of facts, which allow me to not even bother. Much like the society you blame for conditioning you to act a certain way, I'm going to stop walking down that trail. I suggest you do the same. A lot of societal conditioning occurs on media, to answer your question, but of course there are other mediums.

"women have a stickup their butt about being approached like that". Gee.. I wonder why. Could it be to avoid such rude comments & mindsets in perfect strangers?
The difference between you & the "oh we just met at work" guys (as you called it) is that you're more so preying on women like they're all the same game that you wanna stick you dick to; doesn't matter which one says yes, as long as it's any of the many you target, whereas they are living their life, meet a person they connect with & they both mutually make the moves on one another. Thought I said this before, but maybe I said it too nicely, so there's the roundabout way I'm giving you at the hour of my nap time (I'm pretty much a baby, not gonna lie, love my sleep).

"under the guise that it's "natural"" -Does the idea of planning something just to get girls by TRYING to make it natural sound natural?

[myTake Owner]

Holy fuck, my phone just turned in the middle of typing a long ass response I rambled away at. Fuck my life, well there goes that 10mins down the drain.

Look, key points: you DID say it was a game, twice now, so don't gaslight me and say I just was "hearing it" that way. No, you are thinking that way.
Next, guys don't have some other secret way to hear societal messages, you are human, you are the same species as I am, anything society tells you is something I can see is put on you, and I don't know if I typed this in the prior response or if I did during the lost one from when my phone restarted, but the only difference between you and some other men for societal expectations is they don't let society make them their bitch.
Next, where on fucking earth did I say taking the active role in social situations is going to be bad for you? Where? Don't you see that in my whole comments and original mytake that I clearly said social situations are the best way, not unnatural ass women-shopping and dumbass games?
You assume I don't understand men yet here I am with the most successful men in long lasting relationships as friends and a wonderful kind-hearted man as my partner. You are just slaving to societal gender roles and most likely contribute to calling women a whole other species as well as the fact that you've already referred to getting them as games. Not once have I said anything that implies I don't understand men.

One last time, if you don't get this, I'm done from this whole discussion because this is the point you've spun a whole bad tale from:
All I've said is that you do not go on the streets, get rejected, and blame a whole gender for it, BECAUSE there are better ways to succeed. There are other factors/variables/reasons. Do not take this to have any other meaning, this take was for those people who wanted to see a suggestion, regardless of if they wanna take it or not. If it doesn't apply to you, nor do you want to believe it, you are most welcome not to.

[myTake Owner]

(Note, the last couple responses are not proof-read, probs a million typos as I'm sleepy & I'm pissed off with phone turning off mid reply so I only bothered summarising what I originally attempted to write- replies will not be as thought out as before, I might be more aggressive in them- not because of you, but the above mentioned circumstances. No hard feelings, I'm sure you're a gent, please do whatever you are comfortable with, and understand my take wasn't targeted for you to change who you are; again just suggestions of what not to do for those who happened to wanna give them a go. If you are not an incel, there is no offense intended from my heart to yours. Thank you.)

[Opinion Owner]

If you're having the bug I think you're having, when the phone turns off you should be able to unlock it again, use the home button to get back to the main apps screen then hit the gag app again and it should bring up the text you've written again.

This was another long one, sorry.

"so basically anything that hasn't happened to you is an exception."
No, it's not in relation to me, but the general state of things. I've experienced exceptions too. But they are exceptions to the norm, that's the point.

"at least in my multiple differing circles"
-- and from your perspective. Just beacuse it looks like that's how it played out doesn't mean there wasn't more going on beneath the surface that you aren't privy to.

"A lot of societal conditioning occurs on media, to answer your question, but of course there are other mediums."
You don't know what media I consume yet you presume to tell me how it's conditioned me. I am being hyperbolic to make the point. But as an example how often do we men meaning depicted as creepy or gross or hateful toward women? Very frequently. You just listed 5 points complaining about things guys do too often. You're making my point for me. There are a million different lists like yours about what I should and shouldn't do around women. Now see things like that 1000s of times in movies, news, people in general, wherever, and you feel like being a hetero dude is walking on eggshells.

[Opinion Owner]

"rude comments & mindsets"
It was a rude comment, but not a rude mindset. But if that's how you're going to frame it then we should call that aversion to being approached rude in itself, no? The rudeness of the comments to illustrate that I feel the same from the other side. Basically we disagree, rather than acknowledge validity on both sides, you have to make me be seen as "rude" instead of agreeing there may be another side to it. Instead of it being that guys want something and girls want something, you have to make it that what guys want is wrong and what girls want is right. Also, notice how you're agreeing with me that girls feel that way about this despite giving me the 'everyone is different' speech? HMMM.

"that you wanna stick you dick to"
Oh was that a "rude comment"? Could it be that someone out there doesn't see it as vulgar as you and has a differing opinion?

"as long as it's any of the many you target, whereas they are living their life, meet a person they connect with"
I'm "targeting" girls to connect with. You're just saying the same thing with a different framing to make it sound bad. I'm obviously looking for something mutual, the point is that girls aren't actually *trying* to do that. They're just "living their life" as you said, and what I'm saying is that the guys they found something mutual with didn't just fall into that position where (and why) the mutual flirting happens. The girls are just generally none the wiser. And the wider point also included guys that don't succeed at that. I said it's impractical for guys not to be *actively trying* to get themselves into that position because from their perspective they know that it doesn't fall into place as easily as girls think. Why is it so crazy to accept that guys actually try to make the experience of meeting someone new, coming to like them and entering into a relationship perfect for you?

[Opinion Owner]

"Does the idea of planning something just to get girls by TRYING to make it natural sound natural?"
Exactly, it's not. It just looks that way to girls because that's the idea; to make it good for them. It's like a zoo environment; it's meant to look like a natural environment, but really it's packed with a bunch of 'natural features' that you would have a hard time finding all in the same place in the wild.

"you DID say it was a game, twice now, so don't gaslight me and say I just was "hearing it" that way. No, you are thinking that way."
Nope. I said "game face" the first time, that's not calling it a game. The second time, I said if that's how you want to put it then it can be considered a game. But I can also consider war or politics a game. That doesn't mean anything. That's you having a problem with the word "game", I can call these things not a game as well, it's all just semantics. I can make the same points without calling it game if you like, but I'll acquiesce to it while pointing out that I'm only doing so because of your hang up over something arbitrary.
This stuff is not a game.
This stuff is a game to be taken seriously.
Pick whichever framing you feel you can grasp and I'll use that.
So no, I'm not thinking like that", your mistake is thinking that language I use is necessarily defined by you.

"guys don't have some other secret way to hear societal messages"
It's called interpretation. Some people might be partially colourblind and not see what others do. Some people might have all the same physical perception but feel differently about something based on their life and/or how their brains work. You might even hear something very similar but miss some nuance or the source of the message. Long story short, yes people can perceive different things.

[Opinion Owner]

"they don't let society make them their bitch."
There is a whole world of social pressures out there not just, "be yourself" or "comform". This myTake for example, you're telling a bunhc of guy to listen to you rather than not being "society's bitch". What do? So they shouldn't be "soceity's bitch" ... but they should listen to you, appparently... as well as the next woman who tells them something different, and so on.

"taking the active role in social situations is going to be bad for you? Where?"
Where I said guys can't wait because waiting is impractical for them and you disagreed saying "yes you can".
I get you think that being social falls under "waiting" for you, but there's a lot of effort that goes into it for guys -- and it doesn't need to be about me, just make a poll to see if they consider that "waiting" and if they feel like they have to wear a "game face" in situation where you think people are "just living their lives".

"You assume I don't understand men yet here I am with the most successful men in long lasting relationships as friends"
>most successful men
HMMM
By definition that is a subset of men that deviate from the norm, so if that's the sample you're going to use then yes, I suspect you won't understand.

[Opinion Owner]

"You are just slaving to societal gender roles"
I was the most gender egalitarian person their was. It wasn't until I tried to actually talk to girls and date that I got a rude awakening. What semblance of gender roles I have learned, I learned later in life than I should have and I did so from women and listening to them. Women instill gender roles the most intensely. And your an example of how frequently people deflect to "society". Well society is made of people and --this goes back to the 'world of social pressures' part-- when it comes to the specific aspect of society regarding how men react to women, the primary source is women. We can't just say "society" as some nebulous enemy controlling us. Society here, is you. The men you've spoken to have in part drawn their impression of how they should react to women from you. You have played a role in it. You wrote a myTake exerting social pressures on men as to how they are to behave; that's you being "society" breeding the same toxicity women will go on to complain about.

"you've already referred to getting them as games"
I've already explained that it's your hang up over your personal connotations of the word. Don't tell me what I mean by it, especially when I'm willing to use different language to make the same point just so you don't have to adapt.

[Opinion Owner]

"All I've said is that you do not go on the streets, get rejected, and blame a whole gender for it, BECAUSE there are better ways to succeed."
I agree that it's not very effective and I don't do it myself, but I don't think it should be off the table. But that's beside the point I want to make here.
Did you ever think about what it's like from their positon? Men honestly and sincerely approaching a woman they find appealing and they get treated like shit. Yes, I understand you don't like that stuff, but don't make it about you for a second. All they want is a connection and the women right in front of them are the farthest from reach, that probably doesn't feel good, hmm? Really their flaw isn't their feelings, it's the lack of discipline to contain their feelings and conform to "society's" expectations (aka women-in-society's expectations).

Ultimately, I'm saying it's impractical to wait for anything, even when having an active social life. The first thing is that having an active social life is work; it's not necessarily something they wanted in the way women wanted it so it could be more accurate to say that many men are being a part of women's social lives in order to have an opportunity of that mutual attraction rather than saying men are "just living their own lives". But secondly I think that if they feel they can talk to wowmen in the street then they should. I urge them to handle it right, but if they feel like they can then they should. Realistic bad scenario is that some random woman is annoyed with you and you should stay strong. While ideally you find someone more "naturally", don't count on it, do what you need to do to feel wholesome fellas.

[myTake Owner]

"I think that if they feel they can talk to wowmen in the street then they should." - This is the root of all this. For some reason, you simply won't accept that I'm not fucking talking to people who are okay with this😂 Both in my list, on the title of the EXACT same point we're talking about, I refer to the men who get upset about it and then "hate" all women and think they're gonna be alone for the rest of their lives. I've said it specifically there, and I said it a few times now who this mytake is for. It is NOT for you, or for men who think they can handle it or think they can feel fine after. After numerous times of you missing this, until you get this, there is no point in further discussion as this is where all our points branched off from.
The wholesome fellas I know are the ones who conenct with someone naturally, not men who strategise how to get women, and more importantly they're men who don't see themselves so alienated from women to the point that they refer to them as a whole other species- thus I suggested the active social group way of life. But again, this never applied to you, nor men who are comfortable with the street-shopping approach. So there is no problem here.

[myTake Owner]

"Women instill gender roles the most intensely. And your an example of how frequently people deflect to "society" Out of the two of us, you're the one who initially brought up societal expectations impacts on men, and you're further the one who felt trapped by your own society. Not me. Not the men I know. You're the one who feels so separated from women due to gender roles. Not adding up, aye?

[myTake Owner]

"So they shouldn't be "soceity's bitch"" + "listen to you" - No, no. I made a take for those who struggled, you're the one who took it to mean I'm talking about all men despite 1000 clarifications in the comments with you about who they were for and that they shouldn't listen to me, but free suggestions for anyone who wanted them.
Next, yes, if they're gonna blame society and a whole gender for their failures, you of course should look to not-conforming to society, this is a no-brainer.

[myTake Owner]

"deviate from the norm" - Depends on what you classify as the norm. To your mind, are the majority of men failures who can't successfully be with women? To my mind, most men have a healthy mindset and perspective of women, and my larger social circles of course are apart it.

[myTake Owner]

Yikes, I said I'd stop the discussion until you responded to the first reply's idea, but here I am still going. Gonna catch & stop myself here, because as I said, this is all derived from that one misunderstanding of my words.

[Opinion Owner]

I’m feeling out of steam atm, so hopefully this is going to be a shorter reply than my usual novelesque posts.

“The wholesome fellas I know are the ones who connect with someone naturally, not men who strategize how to get women”
All but the most naturally attractive men strategize. I know you don’t want guys to strategize, it’s understandable why you would prioritize guys that seem like they don’t do it. But nearly all do because they must, I’m saying we should accept that. Again, the goal is to make it seem natural, precisely because you don’t like it.
Most guys don’t see women as a different species, doesn’t mean they don’t need to strategize. They’re not a different species but they do have a different sexuality.

“you're the one who initially brought up societal expectations impacts on men”
I think you brought it up when you posted a Take about how men should act.

“you're further the one who felt trapped by your own society.”
Is that supposed to be disparaging? Would you go to someone experiencing something negative and berate them? “Ha ha you’re sad.” To people experiencing something negative, I ask what they face, not beat over the head with it.

“You're the one who feels so separated from women due to gender roles.”
I already pointed out how gender roles provide the most success, so no, you’ve got it backwards. Personally, I usually find little that appeals to me about gender roles. But women finding them appealing is the strongest reason men adapt their behaviour to them.

“look to not-conforming to society”
You are not that part of society by the way.

“To your mind, are the majority of men failures who can't successfully be with women?”
Not failures, but the work they must do and the challenges they face are substantial. Even where they eventually succeed, it came after failures, after experiences that meant they had to alter their *strategy*. Basically, even guys who aren’t failures, know all too well the challenges they face.

[Opinion Owner]

“To my mind, most men have a healthy mindset and perspective of women”
Sure, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t jump through hoops to get there and make it all seem dandy. Also, it’s entirely possible that what you consider “healthy” is not all that healthy. Men are generally more comfortable jumping through hoops for women, but even when the outcome seems comfortable, I think the procedure to get to that point is still worth noting.

"here I am still going"

[myTake Owner]

"I’m feeling out of steam atm" - you and me both, brother.

Nah, I went up to my boyfriend, I first contacted him, I invited him to a friends gathering, we both started chilling together with other people, we both flirted with subtlety.. and then you know what his "jumping through hoops" strategy was"? Said he wanted the watch this movie and asked if I wanted to go. That's it. Wow, what a master plan, what manly struggles and hoop jumping. We both then proceeded to detail when we didn't have work or uni and went the next time we were free. We were friends, it was so easy. We came back to our individual homes in a relationship.

"You are not part of that society" - You've either used the wrong word or you've got the wrong definition of society if you think women don't live in the same society as men😂

It's not my fault when you misunderstand the purpose and target of the MyTake.

"Also, it’s entirely possible that what you consider “healthy” is not all that healthy." - ... Uh. It's entirely possible that you're an incel. Does that random (incorrect) assumption make it true? No. It's just something you randomly brought up.

[myTake Owner]

You've still been discussing under a whole misunderstood premise.

[Opinion Owner]

"his "jumping through hoops" strategy"
You understate it. That's not at all considering the breadth of his experience in the matter. Even in the unlikely event that it was a smooth as you think (and I don't think there's a way to be sure), that still doesn't represent the rest of society.

"You are not part of that society"
You misread.
I said "You are not *that part* of society."

"Does that random (incorrect) assumption make it true? No. It's just something you randomly brought up."
It doesn't make it true, but considering the possibility that we're wrong and what that means is good. I think you're seeing everything as honky-dory on the surface and as long as things appear to be going smoothly for women then nothing could be wrong.

[myTake Owner]

"You understate it." No, I'm not. You just want this to be the case cause it ruins your point. I think I know myself and my partner's situation better than a random guy on the internet who pretends all guys have trouble in this department just because you may.

[myTake Owner]

"I think you're seeing everything as honky-dory on the surface and as long as things appear to be going smoothly for women then nothing could be wrong." It went smoothly for my partner and the majority of my social group, what you're saying is invalid.

[myTake Owner]

"You misread.
I said "You are not *that part* of society."" - but... I AM apart of the society we're talking about. The one both men & women live in. You just want to pretend like men & women come from different societies.

[DDpsy]

The only problem is that those things are "unattractive" to you not all women. There are plenty of women for which those things work and those women give plenty of positive feedback for those types of behavior. Therefore do not expect male behavior to change anytime soon.

[MzAsh]

These things only “work” on low quality women.

[DDpsy]

@MzAsh That doesn't mean much since women don't have a label for "quality" that you see when first approaching OK-LOOKING-CHICK #3873. The quality of pussy is also not that variable either. If a type of behavior gets men sex then you will see more of it.

[MzAsh]

Low quality dick seeking low quality pussy.

[DDpsy]

@MzAsh You still haven't made any valid point against my original statement so I don't understand what exactly is your deal.

[MzAsh]

Your argument is that these qualities aren’t unattractive to all women and I’m saying that the only women these things work on are low quality women, the same type of women who are into prison guys are the same ones who like over masculine meat heads like described here.

[DDpsy]

@MzAsh My point was that there are enough of that type of woman for a positive reinforcement effect for that type of shitty behavior to exist. I think that is pretty obvious and does influence the behavior of a lot of young inexperienced men.

[DDpsy]

The "quality" doesn't make much difference when people see and are constantly told (many times by women) that in order to be successful, one must constantly project an image of dominance and strength.

[MzAsh]

I see. Just because this behavior gets them laid by gutter trash doesn’t make it ok or attractive to the rest of sane society.

[DDpsy]

@MzAsh Plenty of middle and supposedly upper class, sophisticated ladies will go for it also. Don't worry about it.

[MzAsh]

Maybe if they are paid lol

[myTake Owner]

I'm on the fence with this opinion. I definitely agree with your first sentence, this is definitely a subjective matter, not objectivity.
However, a woman (and also vice versa for a man regarding a woman) who has healthy levels of self-esteem, is sophisticated, not immature nor inexperienced will not end up with such men. Those who do are the antonyms of what I just said. The exception may be for number 5, kinda like winning the lottery, they might find such a girl who's gonna give her number out to anyone cause she too is desperate or not-cautious, or perhaps she thinks she can safely and slowly message this guy (though I do not know a single long-lasting couple who have met this way and stayed together). The weird-frown face thing is also very subjective and whilst no one is gonna love the expression, it may of course attract an inexperienced girl who is firstly looking for that physical type. The thing with that point was more so that most guys who are confident aren't gonna go to a gym and take a photo like that to show the world "look at me" & immediately post to Facebook, now are they? It's easy bait that those with self-esteem and experience see through.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I kinda disagree with the last point, but the rest are pretty spot on (I got a good chuckle at "constipated face in the gym" xD)

[myTake Owner]

That's fair! This is all subjective anyway, not factual😊
Haaha yeah I threw that in light-heartedly, but in hindsight I think I may have offended some people😅

[Miss_COLORADO]

When they have a girlfriend and say they don’t have to impress them anymore because they’ve already wowed then and already have them. That’s annoying because HECK NO YOU DONT. You better think twice if you think you don’t have to impress me and think you have me. You best “wow” me everyday cause I’m worth it.

[Onidandal]

Are you an object? Because that sounds like something that a prize would say, rather than a human being that bonds with another.

[GreatSworl]

Im kind of guilty of number 1 sometimes but i dont do number 1 in public, only on the internet

[myTake Owner]

I mean, hey, we're all guilty of 1 or 2 unattractive habits :) At least you're not doing it in person haha. But trust me, just try cutting down on doing it on the internet too and slowly stop if it's habitual. Doesn't do any favours for your arguments, you know?

[GreatSworl]

I dont do it a lot but if someone was acting like a fake alpha male to be tough id call em a beta. The whole alpha beta thing is pretty bad.

[myTake Owner]

I wouldn't encourage that, but fair enough :) I've seen it used under far worse contexts ✌️

[YHL6965]

I'm honestly baffled by the fact that some men seriously think all of these work. I mean I find these behaviors to be so toxic for the most part, belittling others like that is never a good sign.

[myTake Owner]

I know aye. Inexperience, I guess

[YHL6965]

I mean, I have literally no experience in dating and flirting, but I know that's not a way to talk to a human being.

[myTake Owner]

Good point. You're right, that was a wrong guess from me.

[DWD94]

" I assure you, none of the long-lasting couples I know started with a man going up to women for their looks & started a marathon of asking them out. "

Bullshit. Dating is a number's game. The men that are successful in dating are the ones that approach/message 25-50+ women. Its not something women understand because dating as a guy is WAY different than dating as a woman.

"Showing aggression to other men to assert dominance, or calling other women ugly sluts to compliment the girl you want. "

Being aggressive =/= being a jerk. And most women prefer men that are more aggressive and dominant. You can be both of these things without necessarily being a prick.

[myTake Owner]

"Its not something women understand" - Considering I was involved in the starting of my relationship process, i know what I'm talking about irregardless of my sex, buddy.
You are going for a specific kind of woman and consider quantity, not quality (& by quality I don't mean looks, since that is all you'd go for in this department if you're doing the 25-30 women on the street thing). If a guy wants a long-lasting relationship, why did he need to go in the street 25-30 times, mate?😂 Because that process is shopping for women, via quantity. Because only men who don't know women do this. Because there's a serious lack of social awareness of his behalf, which is why so many (not majority) come home to their computers & find themselves on r/incels subreddit.

"being a jerk. And most women prefer men that" - This is a red flag of a statement if/when the woman catches you having. Honestly can't help you until this false mindset is changed.

[DWD94]

""being a jerk. And most women prefer men that" - This is a red flag of a statement if/when the woman catches you having. Honestly can't help you until this false mindset is changed."

I never said women prefer men being jerks. I said that being aggressive is not the same thing as being a jerk. You can be aggressive and dominant without necessarily being a prick.

""Its not something women understand" - Considering I was involved in the starting of my relationship process, i know what I'm talking about irregardless of my sex, buddy."

Irregardless isn't a word, and second of all 'buddy', you cannot compare dating as a woman to dating as a man because they are world's apart.

" If a guy wants a long-lasting relationship, why did he need to go in the street 25-30 times, mate?"

Because dating is and has always been a numbers game.

"Because that process is shopping for women, via quantity. Because only men who don't know women do this"

*Sigh* No its because dating is a numbers game. If you go on a dating app and you make a message like "Hi my name is (insert name here)" copy and paste and message to 50+ women, you will get responses. Its not something women understand because women do not have the burden of communication and its not socially required for them to put themselves out there to get dates. Do you realize how many times women get approached when just going about their day? Men do this technique because it works.

"Because that process is shopping for women, via quantity. Because only men who don't know women do this. Because there's a serious lack of social awareness of his behalf, which is why so many (not majority) come home to their computers & find themselves on r/incels subreddit."

Many of the men become incels because they were set up to fail by people giving shitty dating advice.

[DWD94]

I'll try to explain this a bit better. When it comes to dating, men have to work twice as hard. The reason we talk to multiple women instead of hyperfocusing on 1 woman instead is because we know that most women already have a bunch of guys that like her.

Think of it like a job application. When you put in a job application, you give it to multiple employers, not just 1 employer.

And when it comes to dating apps, we will message 50+ women because we know if we message just 1 woman, its not guaranteed since most women already get a shit ton of messages on those dating apps.

Like I said though, this is not something women will really get or understand.

[myTake Owner]

I misread what you wrote. However, that's not true in the context of what I wrote up there in my list then. If some men have to be aggressive to other men to assert dominance, they ARE a jerk. You can be naturally dominant without doing this. And THAT'S the behaviour I put into the unattractive list, not normal dominant guys.

You shouldn't side-track from the actual topic, but irregardless is used in a colloquial manner & that's what I was doing, and you know that. This is not a literary setting, whether you like it or not. However, I'll refrain from using it from uptight people, how's that?
I can exactlyy compare dating from a man with a woman when the two in question share the exact same experiences. Again, whether you like it or not, I assumed a lot of the "man's" role in initiating a relationship with my partner. We shared the exact same experiences when it comes to dating, despite our sex. Not that this was the point of my list, just one you tried to hook on to flaw the perspective.

"Because dating is and has always been a numbers game" - Nope, missed the point, man. I'm saying, if you are looking for someone to stay with, and you have tried 25-30 times in the same repetitive way without success, you are doing something wrong. Calling it a "game" isn't changing anything except maybe birthing a chance to tell you that you'd be losing. People who don't do this have often so many times have succeeded the "game" (to use your label) on the first try. Perhaps it's time to accept you can 'win' in another way, and come to think of it, I'm not sure why that light bulb hasn't gone off in such a person's head yet; why wouldn't you try 'winning' no matter what? Hell, Einstein would be ashamed to hear these insane attempts done over & over again (joking).

"Do you realize how many times women get approached when just going about?" Bro. I AM a woman & I approached my man.

"Become incels because they were set up to fail" oof I wonder who this justification often comes from

[DWD94]

Again, aggression doesn't mean being a jerk. You keep conflating the 2. You can aggressively pursue justice, you can be aggressive in competition whether its through sports or whatever. Aggression =/= being a jerk.

"I can exactlyy compare dating from a man with a woman when the two in question share the exact same experiences. Again, whether you like it or not, I assumed a lot of the "man's" role in initiating a relationship with my partner. We shared the exact same experiences when it comes to dating, despite our sex. Not that this was the point of my list, just one you tried to hook on to flaw the perspective."

An exception to the rule doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. That would be like saying "Hey you're wrong about cigarettes causing cancer! I smoked 10 packs a day and I didn't get cancer!"

" Nope, missed the point, man. I'm saying, if you are looking for someone to stay with, and you have tried 25-30 times in the same repetitive way without success, you are doing something wrong. Calling it a "game" isn't changing anything except maybe birthing a chance to tell you that you'd be losing. People who don't do this have often so many times have succeeded the "game" (to use your label) on the first try. Perhaps it's time to accept you can 'win' in another way, and come to think of it, I'm not sure why that light bulb hasn't gone off in such a person's head yet; why wouldn't you try 'winning' no matter what? Hell, Einstein would be ashamed to hear these insane attempts done over & over again (joking)."

It is a numbers game though. And what is your idea of 'winning' another way? The most success I had with women came from when I flirted with a bunch, messaged 50+women and would tell them whatever they wanted to hear on dates.

If I didn't do this, I wouldn't ever get dates nor would I have lost my virginity.

[DWD94]

""Do you realize how many times women get approached when just going about?" Bro. I AM a woman & I approached my man."

Okay but most women do not approach men. And why would they? There's no incentive for them to considering that most women will just get approached going about their daily routine whether its shopping, going to school, etc.

[myTake Owner]

Hold your horses there, not "we". Not all men do that whole walking up to women thing. Hell, not even majority (that actually get out a lot + socialise). If that's something YOU do, then proceed with your point, but it's not "we men". No friend I know does this, not in my University circle, not in my old-friends circle, not in my mutual friends with partner's circle, and certainly not in my work circle. They all achieve success in natural settings, they're men who understand going up to 50 strangers is obviously not how you get a suitable partner, nor do they WANT to because they much rather know a girl. They have other priorities. They don't face-shop. And most importantly they have girl friends/aquaintences that they could at any time get close with enough to like their looks, values, and personality (& hell, know she ain't crazy).

YOU, and many of those guys who end up hating women, objectify women. Your job application, while a clever metaphor for your point, is what's wrong with your perspective. You're not in love with a woman that you want to be with, you're looking at women as objects. You're looking at 50 objects, disregarding who they actually are, and picking and choosing, discarding ones that don't suit you in the trash, looking at the pretty ones with some few other things you like; you pick those ones up & if it shatters, and if you're an incel, you'll call it bad names even though you've had no such chemistry with it to warrant such strong feelings. Others, hopefully you, won't do that, but they'll feel wronged, they blame social roles, they'll blame their sex, they'll hate to an extent, and they'll keep doing what they're doing without changing. Why? Why tf would you do that? It's not helping you, i promise you, it'll benefit you to make a change in your life, see the success of others & try to find out why. Inspire yourself, we all need to sometimes, there's nothing wrong with that, progression is always needed. No one 'won' if they didn't grow.

[myTake Owner]

This is a generalisation that most women don't approach men. It's actually true to an extent. Consider the setting. I THINK you talked about online dating as an example at one point, right? So assuming this is a good place (it's not the best in my opinion, but hey, it works for some), consider Bumble. That's basically like Tinder except women make the first move. Right? Perspective in place, yeah? Moving on, the streets. THIS is where men do in fact approach women more than the other way around. For sure. Agreed. Next, social friend groups: BOTH. Definitely both, this is where people were already friends or even minor aquaintences, and BOTH sexes contribute to the starting of a relationship, because flirtation, hinting, intimacy, etc, it all comes from both sexes. I think I know about 6 couples in my Volunteering work's social group, and they all initiated it together, because the "Would you like to go out with me?" with flowers isn't actually always casual enough. The encounters here begin other ways. Why would the women do so too? Hell, because they like their friend/aquaintence/co-worker, of course they'd prefer them over someone on the streets. I've been asked out on the streets, but I've always had connections and inclinations to people I actually know. It can be flattering, but doesn't mean I'm going to go with the stranger on the street.
Anyway, I'm rambling. I hope you know at this point, I'm just trying to say you can do so much better. And I believe you really will if you make the steps to do so.

[DWD94]

"Hold your horses there, not "we". Not all men do that whole walking up to women thing. "

What makes you think I'm talking about walking up to women on the street? I'm mainly talking about messaging women online via dating apps.

"They all achieve success in natural settings, they're men who understand going up to 50 strangers is obviously not how you get a suitable partner, nor do they WANT to because they much rather know a girl."

You never know if you don't try. And even so, this isn't really referring to walking up to strangers. This is moreso about messaging women on tinder, pof or other dating sites/apps.

"YOU, and many of those guys who end up hating women, objectify women"

Who said I hate women? Most of my friends happen to be women.

"Your job application, while a clever metaphor for your point, is what's wrong with your perspective. You're not in love with a woman that you want to be with, you're looking at women as objects."

So? If it helps me get laid and/or get dates, why get upset about my methods?

"You're looking at 50 objects, disregarding who they actually are, and picking and choosing, discarding ones that don't suit you in the trash, looking at the pretty ones with some few other things you like; you pick those ones up & if it shatters, and if you're an incel, you'll call it bad names even though you've had no such chemistry with it to warrant such strong feelings."

I'm not 'discarding' who they are. I'm simply avoiding getting attached to them so that way if they don't feel the same way, I won't feel bad about rejection and I can move onto someone else immediately.

[DWD94]

Your advice to me basically amounts to hyperfocusing on 1 woman and that's terrible advice.

Hyperfocusing on 1 woman limits your options, and what happens then if the woman doesn't like you? Then you've pretty much just wasted your time. No thanks. Me personally, if a girl asks me if she's the only one I'm talking to, I'm just gonna lie to her and say yes.

Also hyperfocusing on 1 woman leaves you open to being used because you end up getting attached to her. Attachment is the worst thing that can happen when you're dating because then she'll get turned off, especially if you start sharing your emotions with her. If you act more emotionally unavailable then she'll stay interested. This is exactly why hyperfocusing on 1 woman isn't a good idea.

" I think I know about 6 couples in my Volunteering work's social group, and they all initiated it together,"

Okay exceptions to the rule do not mean that the rule is invalid. If you legitimately believe women initiate the first move JUST as much as men do, create a tinder account as a guy and then create one as a girl. Then compare the amount of messages you get in 1 week.

[Onidandal]

He's talking about the dynamic in dating as a whole, not the interpersonal relationships that should be grown and developed for a wholly fulfilling romantic relationship. The mytake owner's advice seems to be avoiding aggressive, antisocial behavior. This works for building interpersonal relationships, but being prosocial hasn't exactly done people any favors in building sexual attraction. At least, not in today's dating climate.

[myTake Owner]

"What makes you think I'm talking about walking up to women on the street?" .. Because you DID talk about it. But sure, I'll add the online dating thing as your main concern.

"You never know if you don't try." That's fair, try, no harm in doing that. But the friends I referred to don't need to try it, that's the point; they found success, as I said on first or few goes, as opposed to the street-shopping or online attempts that can take a large amount of failed tries (50 for example as you say).

But I'm honestly sidetracking now from the initial point, so let me just reiterate my meaning again, before I continue reading & arguing paragraph by paragraph with you: I am not discouraging you from doing that. If you just take another look at the initial point, I'm saying simply don't become an incel or hate yourself or hate others or whatever if you keep doing the online attempts and street-shopping & see too-few good results (I've now paraphrased to be more blunt than originally ofc). Why? Because it, in my opinion and experience, is not an effective method to begin with. So don't take it harshly, don't think you're the literal problem, don't think others are the literal problem; it's the method. Don't feel too hurt, because you, like many, can overcome rejection through better methods of finding a long-lasting relationship.
^i think this is the meaning lost between this dispute and long paragraphs (which I'm also guilty of).

Please note, that the times I say "you" I'm not literally referring to you, but rather anyone who falls under the context im speaking of/for/to.

[DWD94]

Incels are gross. What makes you think I'd ever become one or want to be associated with a group of such pathetic men with zero self awareness?

"So don't take it harshly, don't think you're the literal problem, don't think others are the literal problem; it's the method. Don't feel too hurt, because you, like many, can overcome rejection through better methods of finding a long-lasting relationship."

I dont care about rejection nor do I get hurt by it. I just move onto someone else.

[myTake Owner]

Honestly great to hear that (no sarcasm). That's the kind of people I was talking about in that point, hence the title of some of the points obviously talking about that type of guy.

Who, I'll clarify to make sure there's no misunderstanding, I do believe & know are in the minority. Thankfully.

[Anonymous]

Asserting dominance over other dudes. trying to act tougher then what they really are!

[myTake Owner]

Agreed! Definitely in line with my 3rd listed belief. There's so many great guys out there, pretending to be better than everyone of them is ridiculous and over-compensating.

[CoffeeWC]

i agree with all of this. some guys are just clueless.

[myTake Owner]

I know ayee. Same with girls~ got many stories there too haha

[selfdestruction]

Some men are beta. Especially the nice guys. That doesn’t mean they’re compensating. Just means that man doesn’t put up with pussy boys. Yes, women do gravitate toward alphas. You may not, but most do.

If a woman is called a female, it’s cuz she’s a feminist.

If you call confidence and zero tolerance for indecision aggressive... I got news, you don’t want a confident leader.

Being proud of your hard work and posting it with out a fake smile is cool. Not all the dudes are doing for the ladies. In fact most aren’t

I can’t fall in love with a personality at first sight. Yeah, attractive girls; at least the ones I view as attractive will get my attention first. It’s called dating. That’s how you get to know someone. And believe it or not, there is usually no sex.

You seem to have a warped view on men. I’m sorry

[myTake Owner]

Lmfao what did I just read.

If you have to call another guy "beta" or "pussy boy" to look tough, you are in fact over-compensating.
No, media would have you believe what some label as "alpha" is the more attractive guy, but had you left your house enough and plunged yourself into more social groups & settings, you'd see there is no such requirement amongst those in long-lasting relationships.

"If a woman is called a female, it’s cuz she’s a feminist." - I mean... This logic is blowing my mind, I'm not sure I need to say anything but let this stunningly inaccurate sentence stand for itself. However, I'd like to reiterate: the MEN I'm talking about call women this to FLATTER them. Not talking about other situations that you're confusing this with. Just those particular guys, acting like they've had little experience with women so they think it's distinguishing and complimenting. A second look at that listed point would've told you I wasn't talking about feminism or guys calling them that to insult them, but alright~

"If you call confidence and zero tolerance for indecision aggressive... I got news, you don’t want a confident leader." You seem to not be able to tell the difference between confidence and over-compensating assholes. I wonder why that is🤔 Confidence is good. Trying to insult everyone else to make yourself look better is not. It's puny, hilarious (not in the right way😂), and rude. Imagine if you could be confident be without pathetically needing to call everyone else bad names.

"Proud of your work is cool" - Alright then. That's honestly your opinion, I don't think you're wrong about that in the slightest, I'm glad you disputed that with me if that's how you feel👍

There are many forms of dating, and yes, that is one way to know someone. My point was it's not the only way, & more importantly, not the best way. But if that's what you're comfortable with & don't have a problem with, go for it. Just don't bitch about the results (i dont mean just you)

[myTake Owner]

Nope, I have a healthy view on men, you're the only one here who made it about all-men. There are women AND men who do unattractive things, this MyTake was only talking about the men who do.

I daily talk to my group of friends, lovely men and women, along with my partner and see their success in not doing any of the above.