Why don't men understand that no means no?

[Anonymous]

[GoodManDave]

SOME men. I would say sexual type stuff (kissing, etc), I have always backed WAY off if a woman has said no to something.

With rejection for a date... sometimes a no has SOUNDED like an "ask again later." Rarely, but it has happened. Even with a "No," unless they go for personal attacks, with a simple, kind, respectful "no." (rare) I still might try at a different time, if it seems like things have changed. Usually, I get such a rude "no" that I will never EVER ask again. It's not because I'm clueless or a creep, it's because some girls will keep sending out mixed signals, like flirting after a "no."

To me, a lack of signs IS a sign... whether a girl is playing games, or just is flighty... to me, it's a sign that either I don't want to mess with that, or at least that she's not interested.

But even then, people aren't always clear about it. The girl isn't flirting... is she not interested, is she extremely subtle about flirting, or is she just not a flirt?

Some of the signals can get crossed, whether on purpose (playing games), or on accident (she plays with her hair not to flirt, but because she plays with her hair)... I had a girl who was OBVIOUSLY flirting (sneaky head on my chest, head on my shoulders type stuff)... and she wasn't the least bit interested. But when she DID say "no" it at first felt like "not this time, but later." When it was actually a "hell no, loser!" I got those clues pretty quickly, but even by then (circumstances), it was a while into the "friendship."

I've had girls who would flirt just to get me interested and it was a "hilarious joke" at my expense. So sometimes girls (and guys too... I can think of one who is terrible at flirting boundaries) aren't that clear. And some girls will keep acting interested but give a "no." or sometimes the relationship will seem to change... and you're not always sure if that "no" from three months ago still stands. I'd probably ask, but try to be clear..." That's not me being a "creep" or being oblivious... though at times, I've probably gotten that for even fairly innocent stuff like that... the few times it's happened.

[MrOracle]

The vast majority of men understand that "no means no".

But here's the problem: women often don't say what they mean, and often don't say anything at all, and expect men to somehow read their mind.

Pick ANY random day here and read all the questions from women, and you'll find many instances of women saying "a guy asked me for a date and I rejected him, but I really like him and want him to ask me again!" or "he was trying to have sex and I pushed him away, but secretly I was horny and hoped he'd do it anyway."

Men deal with those mixed messages from women CONSTANTLY - and many women will admit that they DON'T KNOW what they want or how they feel, and that they want the MAN to make the decisions. Men struggle with this constantly - on one hand, being told that they're unattractive if they aren't decisive and dominant, and on the other hand, that they need to listen to what women say (even when women admit they often don't mean what they say).

Despite all that, MOST men get it right virtually every time, even at their own expense.

Now, are there men who are selfish, narcissistic, and completely uncaring - who just do what they want? YES! And the rest of us don't condone them or respect them. But here's the thing: many women continue to CHOOSE those men - often over and over, and even despite knowing that a man has a reputation for hurting women and even despite being warned against him. You can't blame the whole of men for the choices that some women make.

Should men communicate more? Yes - many men struggle with this. Should women be less afraid to say what they really think? Yes - many women struggle with this. And between the two of those, communication often breaks down. Men and women are VERY different about a lot of things - more than most people like to admit - and we don't always understand the other's perspective, and without communication to bridge that gap, mistakes can be made. In most cases, there is responsibility for that on BOTH sides.

[didigo182]

Perfect.

Women can not understand themselves, they still want we have to guess...

[Lipsticksmearer]

I just watched an interesting video on YouTube about this actually.

Essentially, one of the factors could be entertainment and movies they have grown up with. The video used the filmography of Harrison ford as an example.

Indiana Jones- indie kisses and lasso's women who have explicitly said 'no' to him
Blade runner- he basically forces himself into Rachel and forces her to give him consent under threat of violence even after she's given no signals to say she's interested in. - while romantic music swells in the background.

The president is a raging misogynistic arsehole who's supposed to be an example and leader for the men &a women of the country who's been accused of sexual harassment and jokes about grabbing women's privates. While the media plays it off as jokes and not a serious offence.

I

[Lipsticksmearer]

n a nutshell, the men portrayed in the media that many young men have grown up idolising, are shown not take 'no' for an answer. And that's one of the factors men find it so hard to understand a playful no from a 100% no or even what consent is.

Know I'll get shit for it. But I'm just rephrasing one reason for why men don't understand when a woman says no she means no. Not saying it's true but it would make sense

[ClauseViter]

This is so true

[ClauseViter]

For most confident guys 'no' is an invitation. It becomes a challenge. To turn the 'no' into 'yes'.

[Rainie_]

Just realised you put the shorter simpler summary of the video I just posted on my opinion ahah 😊
Completely agree.

[Lipsticksmearer]

As if haha, yeah i think I'm becoming an armchair psychologist. I want to understand why people do the things they do, this in no way excuses toxic masculinity but maybe some guys will read it a lightbulb will turn on and that would make for a better person in my opinion

[btbc92]

Well other than the usual answers given, if you have no boundaries set for yourself then they will take it that you're not as serious as you try to make it out. It's like raising a child or training your pet. Don't say it's okay to do one thing one day, and wrong to do that the next day. They won't understand that and will feel that you are very contradicting. It is better for that person to be angry at you for standing your ground than for you to be a people pleaser in the relationship because you're 'scared' they would walk. This issue is a lot of guys say that when we as women say no, we actually mean yes. This reverse psychology is due to unassertive women constantly doing this to guys, and now it's becoming the norm.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Thank you.

[Makeuphoarder]

Unfortunately, some feel they are entitled or like they own you. I've known men that say they shouldn't have to ask for sex , they just take it. I guess that can be a turn on at times but if a female really doesn't feel like being touched/is not in the mood/tired and they say no. No means NO! If you ignore us and continue even though we have communicated we will feel disrespected and disgusted. Please have some self control and understand that our bodies belong to us and we have the choice and the right to say NO! Please listen.

[Lipsticksmearer]

This isn't a hard concept to grasp at all. Men understand no means no, they've just been conditioned to take what they want regardless. ( and I don't want to hear 'not all men' obviously not all men)

[Astoriana]

@Lipsticksmearer "not all men but enough men that every woman has encountered the attitude" which really is a mouthful.

[Joti_Harrison]

@Lipsticksmearer If men weren't conditioned from evolution to take what we want, we as a human race would still be living in huts with women who are just fine not being assertive or go-getters. Many of the inventions or selfies you women love to take all day in bathrooms won't be invented just sitting down hoping what we want comes to us or that girl we like magically just comes to us to profess their love, which in 99% cases never happens for men.

[Astoriana]

@Joti_Harrison taking selfies is not a solely female pastime, if Tinder is any guide.

[Joti_Harrison]

we both know the gender that has taken it to a whole new level with all those Snapchat filters in every of their pictures. Talk of the vast plethora of them who have become so-called instagram models or stars lol. You'd be lying to yourself If you don't believe that most people find it weird when a guy takes selfies all the time but are perfectly fine when a girl takes selfies every time because to everyone that's perfectly normal for girls.

[Frosteh]

Because there's a certain proportion of women who say no when they mean yes, and actually enjoy the danger of interacting with a man inside of that context.

And men have absolutely no idea which women are like that and which aren't. And so it's a very dangerous leap of faith. Sometimes things get pushed a bit too far, and she enjoys that immensly. And sometimes the moment is misjudged and obviously that doesn't end well at all.

Now OBVIOUSLY this is a risk for men, and typically its why men will escalate slowly pushing the boundaries to tease out exactly if she really means no or not. Men also have testosterone which allows for risk taking behaviour. I'm not advocating doing any of this because it is a risk and if you have misjudged then you're in extremely serious trouble. But y'know some men take that risk and it pays off and they feel king of the world.

I get that it's a really serious issue for women who are genuine in their communication. But it's not lack of education or done completely without reason by men, so I hope that sheds some light on why.

To lighten the mood here's a related joke - NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU

[thatguyfromtoronto]

I think there are different aspects to all of this, I remember a few girls I knew in the past where I got into an argument with them and they said, "Don't talk to me anymore!" and I wouldn't, a few months would go by and I would email them to apologize for anything I said that may have hurt their feelings. Most girls responded back to me by saying, yeah, I was expecting you to respond to me a few days later not a few months later.

I think what is also portrayed in movies where a girl or woman pulls away to see if he will still pursue her is a very stupid move females do. I understand females do this to see if he is truly worthy, example if she says "I'm fine, but she really isn't", I don't get why certain girls/women do that, just be straight up and honest, don't beat around the bush.

I guess that plays a factor for guys when no means no. Sometimes in a guy's mind, he thinks you're playing hard to get and he should try harder, sometimes it's his own sexual urges and raging hormones. Do I condone those actions when a girl says, "NO MEANS NO", no I do not condone those actions if a guy still pursues her in that sense. If a girl or woman says no in a firm tone of voice and not in some playful, flirty banter, smacking his arm kind of no then obviously it's a huge difference.

If a girl or woman said no to me, then I would take the hint and say fuck it, she doesn't like me, move on and walk away from her. Yeah, it hurts but not everyone is going to like me unless I was some handsome, rich, tall movie star.

[bluelantern]

Because a lot of men think they're entitled to things that aren't theirs (your body) and when you tell them they can't have it, they get offended and need to demonstrate how "masculine" they are. And sometimes they're just assholes that think if they keep pushing, you'll give in and let them do what they want. Either way, they're jerks and you should find a new guy

[MasterSirMaster]

WHATTTTTTT?

[Anonymous]

Because no does not always mean no. I was with a woman and as we started to fool around. We were making out, then I started to feel her up and then started to put my hands down her pants and she grabbed my hand and told me no. So, I respected that and just stuck to making her out and feeling her tits. Later we got into an argument because she wanted me to finger her and to fuck her and when I told her I stopped because she told me no, she told me she wanted me to keep persisting and make her change her no to a yes. So, whenever a woman tells me "no", I have no idea what the fuck that means.

[Partywithtom]

You clearly were supposed to rape her

[somewheresomeway]

"this is fucked up miscommunication is something women NEED to change" said no feminist ever.

[Canuck37]

I'm a guy that takes women seriously when they tell me no.

But I've had a girl tell me, many years back, that she wanted a guy to pursue her. That she was upset that I didn't keep trying when she told me no.

And when I hear things like this, I start to wonder "what am I supposed to do about that?"

I have still continued to take girls seriously, and their "no" means no. The risk of sexual assault isn't worth the benefit of discovering that a few women didn't actually mean the "no."

[Anonymous]

Well, I think you need to break things down a bit more. Plenty of men (most in fact) DO understand that no means no. It's just a small minority that does not, but you do have to be careful.

It's also worth noting that you should break down the female side of this as well. There are girls for whom no means no, never. BUT there's also a number of times when no means not yet, or try a bit harder, or no but keep trying and it will be yes. Because of that there can be a lot of misunderstanding.

So what to do if you're a girl? The first thing is to try to keep yourself out of situations where you're alone with sketchy guys or with guys you aren't fully familiar with. Secondly, if you do find yourself thinking no, you need to make be VERY forceful and VERY clear and be prepared to leave immediately.

[normalice]

because there are a whole lot of movies and romance novels out there that tell us that sometimes no means "yes, but I want to watch you put some effort into it, first". And girls tend to react to these movies and romance novels as though they are, indeed, romantic. So, it's a mixed signal thing. Guys don't really have a barrier between fantasy and reality - we don't fantasize anything that we wouldn't like to actually do. Girl's have that barrier. So our 'fantasy' signal is easily mixed with our 'reality' signal, and seeing things like this makes us think that a girl who says no is only trying to give chase.

Or he could just be a prick. It varies..

[SnowyOwl]

Because they subconsciously know they are physically stronger than females and even if we resist them, they know we don't stand a chance and they can get their way anyhow.

Many guys also subconsciously don't like to accept that they don't have full control of everything. Saying they dont have control of an outcome is like threatening their masculinity. Some sort of superiority complex.
A social injustice that is culturally neglected, still in 2017.

But there are many guys out there that know they shouldn't take advantage of their physical strength, because its better to be your girl's teammate, not her master.

[ATuairiscean]

Is there any text to this question because I believe that a lot of these moral question fall into the "Depends" category or at least need to be analysed in a contextual sense. Any person who engages in sexual activity against another person's consent is guilty of sexual assault. A person who browbeats another person into reluctant sexual activity is morally reprehensible but not a criminal. The fact that it is in a grey area is more society's fault than anything else. Is it the old double standard that guys are just horny dogs who will just keep pressuring bringing themselves down and other guys who respect women by understanding no means no. Society has created this grey area that allows almost encourages this behaviour.

[DanoMR98]

To be honest, this post is retarded.

Men as a demographic do not defend rape. It is already a crime, and it is one crime that liberals and conservatives both agree is the worst one, or at least in the top 3.

We could ask your title about any crime.

Why don't arsonists know that fire is dangerous?
Why don't robbers know that stealing is wrong?
Why don't gang members know that they are putting their communities at risk?

The answer to these three is because they don't care.

Why don't rapists understand that no means no? Because they don't care.

[Nate1941]

Why the down votes? He poses a good question.

[Daltron]

Majority do, just some jerks don't care. All in all it really depends on what colors guys see, good guys are attracted by a certain breed of girl while other behaviour patterns attract jerks.

Some are clueless and honestly think it's a game and you haven't told him to buzz off you just want him to chase a bit, in this case it's just him being clueless and not a jerk. This would be rare, most of the time it's a jerks that doesn't really care about you.

[Anonymous]

Most men take a no at face value and leav eit. The others who are jerks and mentally incompetant don't because they're selfish and don't know when to give up.

Also to the people saying a women's no isn't always a no, when a girl says no I take it as that. If she's playing hard to get or doesn't really mean no it's her loss. I'm not going to risk raping, sexually assaulting, harassing and in general just disrespecting a woman because the odd one needs to grow up and stop playing head games.

[Rainie_]

Video might seem a bit long but it puts some real perspective into why some people might think its okay because its romanticised or promoted to behave that way, showing in media/movies that women DO want it despite saying no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Not to mention the girls/women who are common fans of this sort of thing.

[Goodwifie]

I'd been on a few dates in my single years and I only had one bad first date experience.
I was on a picnic date and as the people around us left and there was no one else around he pushed me to the ground.
I asked him to stop and he refused, he only stopped when a passer by over herd my struggle and intervened.

Please don't paint all men with the same brush.

[Astoriana]

Did your husband tell you to write that?

[Stacy77]

@Astoriana I guess women can't think for themselves right?

[Astoriana]

@Stacy77 her entire presence on this website is predicated on the fact that she's a good little wifey.

[Stacy77]

@Astoriana That is not any of your business.

[Astoriana]

@Stacy77 so when I recognize people around, I should just forget them entirely, even when I feel that they give bad or at the very least biased advice?

[Stacy77]

@Astoriana Because you don't like her advise doesn't mean its wrong. You seem like a real bully.

[Goodwifie]

I was almost a victim of rape, the fact that someone else who didn't know me decided not to mind his own business stopped the prick from taking it any further.

[Astoriana]

@Stacy77 because I question a source instead of blindly agreeing? Sure thing cupcake.

[Stacy77]

@Astoriana You are questioning the "source" ? She is speaking from her life experience. Is her life experience wrong because you don't agree with it? smh!!

[Goodwifie]

I'm a good wife that has a great husband.
I'm not really sure why an argument has started here.

[Walrus_au]

I don't want to do the 'not all men' thing here, but not all men.
I don't think it is a phenomina that is unique to men, nor universal to one or the other gender.

You see it a lot in egotistical jerks of both genders who think everything is all about them.

[DefinitelySane]

I'm one of the men that doesn't do this either, but the thing is enough men do that every woman has to deal with it. I've been harrassed before, but only once or twice, which is the most any of my male friends have been. My female friends, however, all deal with it significantly more often.

[Walrus_au]

@DefinitelySane You have a very good point, yes.

[Chief16]

Ok, no means no. The kitchen's that way.
68.media.tumblr.com/.../...v16DSX1s77hxvo1_500.gif

[MoonTreexx]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[IndianGirl01]

ok @Chief16, then go make ME a sandwich.

[MoonTreexx]

@IndianGirl01 good comeback😁

[Chief16]

@IndianGirl01 awww, aren't you cute?
media.giphy.com/media/SYGkVEBAhm0g0/giphy.gif

[Natividad]

I like challenges. Think of a car salesman. For example, one day on my way to work, there was a guy looking at trucks. Other cars salesman past him and told me to talk to him and see if he wants to buy a truck. Now really quickly if the other salesman thought he would actually buy they would have gone for him themsevles but they told me because i was still new. I hadn't sold anything yet. So i ask the guy if he wants a truck, he says no. He also said, "Im here getting my wife's car oil change and just looking i already have a truck". I then say it is okay, how much time do you have before the car is ready? He said about 25 mins. I then ask do you want to drive a truck why just look. We have 25 mins to kill anyways. Pick a color and ill get the keys. I do not want to go to the morning meeting anyways. He picks... short story short, we went to convice his wife to trade in his old truck for the new one. Sold truck. So see no means yes sometimes, if you are good enough. 😉

[Sunburst223]

Plenty of men understand that no means no. For men who don't, it's usually because they were already a**holes to begin with. Oh, and here's a twist for ya, but men can be raped and sexually assaulted to. Sometimes, it's even by a woman. So shocking, I know.

[Poopsiewhoopsie]

How dare you disagree with the consensus that all men are rapists! You must be a misogynist!

[Sunburst223]

@Poopsiewhoopsie Oh, yes. Truly the most raging of misogynists. No, what I really am is someone who detests the lumping together of groups, whether it's of men or women.

[RJGraveyTrain]

Most men do, some either try to push it anyway or some suck. Lol. Women do complain when men aren't persistent.

Except in cases of rape, obviously...

[FýrdracaDócincel]

"Women do complain when men aren't persistent. Except in cases of rape, obviously..."

Thank you.. -_-

[RJGraveyTrain]

No problem complexly named user.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Why does it seem that so few of you can put 2 and 2 together?

[RJGraveyTrain]

Lol how do you mean?

[FýrdracaDócincel]

The lack of self-awareness., mostly. I mean if these pinks are gonna harp on us for *ahem* "thinking they know what girls want better than girls themselves," well then all I gotta say is better catch up.

[RJGraveyTrain]

I think a lot of people choose ignorance to be honest. It's easier to point fingers and blame then acknowledge YOU might play a part in the issue.

If a guy doesn't try hard enough he's not a real man.

If he tries too hard he's a creep.

Don't get me wrong. That doesn't make it okay for a guy to pester or harass you if you say no outright but we gotta take SOME responsibility.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

That's all well and good. But tbh it's making it more and more difficult to see girls romantically. I can't commit to a girl that I don't respect. This common "ignorance" isn't helping in the slightest.

[RJGraveyTrain]

Hey I understand. Man hoeness made me not wanna date guys until I met the right one.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Good to hear that went over well for ya.

[RJGraveyTrain]

Yeah it took me almost four years though so don't lose hope

[FýrdracaDócincel]

I don't plan on it.

[KaseyRouqe]

Because some guys don't take rejection well. I've had a few experiences with guys like that. But for the most part, guys respect the boundaries you set. Sure sometimes the might try to push it a bit, but that's just human nature. When you set them straight and upfront, some guys might even appreciate to know what to expect.