Is Stoicism an example of toxic masculinity?

[Siri137]

First of all it needs to be said that there are two different ways to approach this; from the definitional perspective and from the philosophical perspective. 'Stoicism' has two different meanings; it is both a way of life, a philosophy, and it has a common understanding that is used in everyday speech by ordinary folk, without reference to any famous Stoics like Marcus Aurelius.

It's the common understanding that I have in mind here, not the ancient philosophy. People think of Stoicism as a suppression of feeling, of neglecting one's mental and physical health, working oneself to death, and trying to "lift oneself up by the bootstraps" (which is, of course, an impossibility).

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

No idea. I've never given the issue much thought.

Results

[Holsen]

Actually as all ideas that is old and incomplete, if you take it plainly is of course gonna make no sense but what it means is to push yourself further and to deepen your potential and that can be applied in all things not just physically;for example let’s take the act of pushups;there are people who can’t do as much as 10 even though they are adults but saying that they’re just not the type for that or they aren’t sporty is just an excuse, here applies that people should put effort into it and also people who take it at a slow pace and such are still wrong as you can’t just stay in your comfort zone and be afraid of some pain in exchange for fulfillness and reward wich in this case is strength so one needs to just reach his limit no matter how small or big that is and usually people stop at this point and call it a good workout, but no there starts the real fight as you actually need to use your resources and make thin use of them and squeeze through difficulties so if you can’t bear the resources getting smaller as you reach and pass your limit you are not gonna achieve anything;furthermore people find it acceptable to work theimselves to the bone in order to get a promotion but ditch the idea of exhausting yourself for something else like in this case going further till you are out of energy and your body doesn’t have more to use and instead falls down and it recovers shortly afterwards!!

[Anpu23]

No, and to claim it is is robbing our young men the skills they need to accomplish great things.

We see two messages here, one to young ladies, "you can accomplish anything, just need to work hard." To young men, "you need to express yourself more, be more vulnerable." While on the surface both seem to be positive messages But what the unspoken message is that boys are inherently broken, that the way that they naturally emote is intrinsically flawed (the centers for emotional response in men is tied to the areas of motion while in women the areas of communication, in other words boys ACT their emotional life while women TALK their emotional life). This in effect is devastating to boys emotional experience as they are told that they can not only act what they feel (stoicism) that they must further express their emotional feelings which is itself distressing. Its unfair that we as a society are femsplaining the male experience to boys who simply are neither equipped nor wired to emote in the way that is expected of them.

[FreyaRed]

For me isn't stoicism "toxic masculinity" no matter if it's in psychological or philosophical meaning of this term. Nevertheless I would with pleasure hear an elaboration from a person who thinks stoicism is toxic masculinity, just for giggles.

[Siri137]

I presented this as a question, the question being "Is stoicism an example of toxic masculinity?", it thus being crystal clear to anyone who can read English that I don't have a strong opinion on this topic.

[FreyaRed]

I meant the 9% who picked "Yes, it is"

[Siri137]

Okay. Sorry :(

[Hungryghostwriter]

I feel like most people missed the point of the post. OP clearly says they're talking about the colloquial meaning of the word as in men who suppress their emotions, which is toxic. I grew up doing this and it hasn't gone well.

The philosophy is not toxic at all. It is actually very similar to Buddhism, which I assume most people don't consider a toxic philosophy. One of the things in both Buddhism and Stoicism the philosophy is to live fully in the moment, which includes being aware of your emotions and expressing them in healthy ways as soon as they are felt.

[SongBird3]

Stoicism in of itself just means "do not worry about things that are out of your control" I see nothing feminine or masculine about it, and it is far from toxic.

[dynamicyandere]

I associate stoicism with the classic and philosophical sense of the word.


Attributing the neglect of mental health and overworking oneself seems to be closer in alignment with ‘hustle culture’ than it is to stoicism.


Stoicism, done correctly, should be giving someone peace of mind and clarity.


It’s a shift of perspective and it creates calm.


There shouldn’t be emotions to ‘suppress’ as stoicism is supposed to be about letting go and accepting what is outside of your control.


It’s learning to be at peace, no matter the outcome.


So, no. I wouldn’t say stoicism is an example of toxic masculinity.


But, perhaps an unhealthy obsession and pursuit of masculinity is what is toxic, if it’s done haphazardly enough to not understand stoicism and incorrectly apply it in a way that leads to self-destruction.


For example, it’s good to diet and exercise to live a healthier life.


But, if it’s twisted into an unhealthy obsession that devolves into body dysmorphia? Now, it’s a problem.


And, it’s good for men to embrace their masculinity and not neglect that natural part of themselves.


But, it’s bad to pursue masculinity and go about it in a self-destructive and harmful way. (e. g. Rushing through things, completely misunderstanding stoicism, and adopting habits that are harming their mental health.)

[NathanDavis]

that's not how it works...

a lot of "good things" can be done "bad" or become toxic...

like, having a lot of determination can bring a person many good great things for himself and others too... but also, that same "will power" can become something very stubborn and a detriment to everyone involved

both have the same root... these things are much more complex and complicated... and not as simplistic as they're usually portrayed by propaganda

[Drewtate]

Anything that benefits men in any way is called toxic masculinity. The biggest problem with Stoicism woke nazis have is that is a European philosophy.

Stoicism is a philosophy that guides men in to handling themselves well through tough times, controlling their emotions and having a moral compass.

A stoic quote I live by is

" if its not right don't do it. If its not true don't say it"

~ Marcus Aurelius

https://www.youtube.com/embed/MkKxAi_c0LQ

[Anonymous]

Is it toxic femininity to demand men interact with women with the same level of emotional intelligence women spent decades developing while men focused on physical and logical development?

I think most women would regard it to Toxic Masculinity for a man to demand she preform and work physically as well as he can and does.

Our leaders have spent far too much time under the delusion that we are equal trying to downplay our differences. While A woman's lower physical strength may be obvious, an man's lower emotional intelligent is not soo well tolerated or advertized.

[ODC2112]

Let us assume that lesbian feminists, i. e., those who coined the term toxic masculinity, define toxic masculinity as masculinity itself, so per se, toxic masculinity does not exist.
Stoicism is a philosophical doctrine geared towards making the individual (whatever his sex) free from his own evils. Man's dominion over his own needs should not lead to annihilation but to a serene view of things and, consequently, to peaceful happiness.
For any worldview based on resentment towards others, this is absolute evil, for when it comes to resentful attitudes on the part of some groups, the response of a Stoic (or even a Buddhist) is "Who fucking cares about you?"

How can you accuse others of alleged harassment or alleged violence if the other person cares nothing about you and ignores you? You cannot; in doing so, you break the feminist dialectic by breaking their dialectical toy since the stoic approach renounces confrontation.

[Summeroflove]

If you want to say stuff like “toxic masculinity” then you also have to acknowledge “toxic femininity” because toxic traits exist in BOTH genders. Some more common in one then the other, while others are more universal. Watch the movie Mean Girls

[Siri137]

Yes, there's toxic femininity too. The movie 'Mean Girls' is all about that.

[Summeroflove]

Yeah lol. Any human being can be toxic. I don’t understand why some people think it’s just men. Except for sexists.

[AaronKrieger]

No, but aspects of stoicism should be applied to men, as we tend to do stupid/dangerous shit when react emotionally all the time. I specifically say "aspects," as not every guy needs the same thing. It's not a one size fits all, so it does not need to be an extreme end of stoicism.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Not really. An example of "toxic masculinity" would just simply be like bringing shame to men if they cannot man up and not even appreciating them which also what women do. If women does it too then that's not toxic masculinity. That's just being toxic and feminist just likes to use that term to disguise themselves as the "angels" who cannot be toxic.

[Miristheiss]

MASCULINITY is NOT toxic.

Get that idiotic nonsense out of your head.

A PERSON (whether male or female) can be toxic. Masculinity and femininity, by themselves, are NOT toxic.

Just people are.

[OlderAndWiser]

"Toxic" is simply a label that the left tries to get people to use to put down anything a man does that establishes or maintains his power. And this is from the Left, that otherwise tells us that it is wrong to label people.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Yes it is. Dudes trying too hard to appear masculine not realizing they look stupid in doing so.

Masculinity is something that comes natural to a man and each man have their own unique personality on how their Masculinity is expressed.

[mrlongdongsiilver]

I hope that you know that's not what stoicism really is, it's about making the best of one's circumstances instead of crying about what can't be done or your suffering. Stoicism isn't for everyone but it's definitely needed for a lot of people especially those who find themselves in bad circumstances such as people like francis ngannou, sean strickland, robert downey jr, fred from friends, lebron james all grew up rough and had to be stoic to make it to where they are now

[Anonymous]

No. I've had more than one woman refer to me as stoic. And they said it in a way that denoted positivity.

I suppose it could be considered toxic if it was misinterpreted. I'm generally quiet and reserved. But I would never deliberately disrespect someone.

[XXTruthfulOgrexx]

No, why? Because anyone can be toxic. Toxic behavior isn't gender specific. We really need to end all this gender identity BS and focus on being better people all around.

[Joshydavid25]

Stoicism is actually a good thing.. It's great in situations where strength is needed.. The one that's quiet and calm assures everybody that things will be alright.. But like everything in life too much of it can be a bad thing..

[love_conquers_lust]

Did you stumble upon MyTake?

[Siri137]

No, never seen it before.

[love_conquers_lust]

Did you read it?

[JesseP1nk]

Men who do not control their emotions are dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9LVsUP-ePG4

[Anonymous]

Stoicism goes back thousands of years. I don't think the phony woke words you throw around can tarnish that.

[Siri137]

Yes, I know that, but you clearly didn't read (or perhaps you read it, but didn't understand) the additional information I provide here in order to clarify the question.

[SotiCoto]

No. Encouraging emotion is an example of toxic femininity.

[Siri137]

But emotions are what we all have. Why deny that? Why suppress feelings? What does that achieve apart from making the person in question (usually a man) even more miserable than he need be?

[SotiCoto]

Because it is a legacy system. As a judgement system it has insanely low accuracy and typically causes more harm than help... and unfortunately biology doesn't allow for old systems to be uninstalled entirely.
The best approach to minimising their harm is to simply shush them into a corner and mostly ignore them, then pacify them with meaningless distractions if they get too noisy. Unfortunately most people tend to do the complete opposite and utterly forego reason and rationality in favour of putting their animal feelings on a pedestal and worshipping them... which basically puts their judgement on the same level as the average dog.

[Siri137]

But emotions aren't always harmful. In fact, they're often useful (ex. intuition). I don't think anyone would suggest we allow feelings to completely take over, but they need to be acknowledged nonetheless.
Your first paragraph makes no sense, it's gibberish.

[SotiCoto]

Dogs aren't always harmful either. But dogs aren't smart, and they don't make smart choices. This is why we don't let dogs make important life decisions for their humans, no matter how loudly they bark... and why people shouldn't make important life decisions based on emotions either.

Also my first paragraph of my previous post isn't gibberish. You could have asked what I meant if you didn't understand, but you dismissed it as "gibberish" instead. This is one of those points where you have failed, but rather than acknowledging your failure (to yourself) and working past it, you have tried to cast the blame for your failing outside yourself.
No. It isn't gibberish. If you don't understand something, it won't hurt you to ask.

[Siri137]

That's a ridiculous analogy. People aren't dogs, and neither are the feelings that people have. And dogs actually ARE "smart"; in fact, in many cases they're more intelligent than most people I've known. I guess you've never been a pet owner.

[Siri137]

Oh, and yes, it WAS gibberish!

[SotiCoto]

You've made your position quite clear: You consider dogs the height of intelligence and aspire to nothing greater than barking at your problems until you're convinced you've scared them away. Good luck with that. Someone really ought to shorten your leash though.

[Siri137]

Straw-man. No, I did NOT say that "dogs are the height of intelligence". WHERE do I say that? I said that dogs are more intelligent than many people I've known. Is English a second language of yours? Do you understand the meaning of words?

[SotiCoto]

Better than you, I'd wager.

[Siri137]

I'm sorry, but did you say something? (yawn) This conversation was really boring. I'm really sleepy now. Thanks, now my insomnia is cured :)

[genericname85]

there is no toxic masculinity. That's just a feminazi propaganda Word.

[Siri137]

Actually, that's two words. "Toxic" and "masculinity".

[genericname85]

Yeah but only in context they have that specific meaning. Sure there are toxic males. But the word toxic masculinity draws the entirety of men in a very unfair negative light.

[yourfriendrob]

Stoicism can sometimes be a bit problematic when taken to the extreme. It's all about finding that balance. When Stoicism makes you feel like you have to hide your true self and not ask for support when you need it that’s when it becomes toxic.

[exitseven]

Itvis not toxic. The world is a tough place and a guy has to be tough to deal with it

[Anonymous]

Wow, I should totally do that. It will definitely help me not get laid because only like crappy personalities and guys with money.

[RingOfFire]

I'd say the question more like an example of toxic Marxism.

[Andres77]

I don’t go for any ism. Humility and kindness are key, and then intolerance for bs.

[AnusNdaPainus]

What will talking about our problems won’t solve anything

[Staximus]

Stoicism is not toxic masculinity, it's not being a weak minded coward who just gives up

[Anonymous]

Toxic masculinity is simple as this

Are you a man?
Yes then you're toxic and will be put to death

[Z1pTD]

Stoicism is not letting your problems affect or annoy other people. How is that toxic?

[Tomisworthless]

No such thing as toxic masculinity women need to quit projecting their toxicity

[HouseMoat]

You can be a good person, and still be a guy. It's all about how you treat others

[TheGuyYouCrave]

There is no such thing as toxic masculinity or femininity.

There is only toxic people.

[Anonymous]

No such thing as toxic masculinity. That's a made up
Term squids use to try to emasculated men.

[Anonymous]

No, it's a good thing, and there's no such thing as "toxic masculinity"

[Anonymous]

stoicism or lack of stoicism gets mocked by women either way

[whistlingwh0res]

Gay in the closet

[Siri137]

You are? Okay. :)

[grega239]

How is being in control of emotions toxic?

[Tstrbrainer]

Even if it is, I'm embracing it