Why are Mary Sues hated while Gary Stus are loved?

[Anonymous]

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Why are male characters who are born more powerful and intelligent than everyone else loved, but similar female characters are hated? In several animes, the character is born with more magical power than all the sorcerers who have been living, training and studying for millennia, they have more military knowledge than all the Generals who studied their whole lives, they have more combat experience than experienced soldiers in various wars, etc.

[MrOracle]

Most people do NOT like either type of character. Even in the context of fiction, they aren't relatable and seem obviously fake. There's a damn good reason why the Hero's Journey has, in the broadest strokes, been the same for thousands of years: it's immensely relatable when we see the protagonist struggle and fail and grind before they ultimately succeed.

Characters that spring to life already being the best at everything and who know everything are boring - it's like playing a video game with a cheat code to make you invincible - it very quickly gets boring when there are no stakes.

Ellen Ripley in the Alien series wasn't especially skilled or powerful or trained - she was just smart and she was unwilling to quit fighting for her survival, no matter how hard things got. That's why everyone loves her.

The same with Sarah Conner - she started off as a helpless waitress who couldn't do much of anything, but when things got tough, she kept stepping up and making an effort, despite barely knowing what to do, and having things not go her way. Despite endless setbacks, she never gave up. Who doesn't like her?

I used to watch Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter) and The Bionic Woman in the late 70s, along with Princess Leia. In the 80s, besides the ones mentioned, you had Marion in the Indiana Jones movies, Nancy Thompson (A Nightmare on Elm Street), Tess (Working Girl), Sarah Williams (Labrinyth), and Chris Parker (Adventures in Babysitting), just to name a few.

The idea that anyone had a problem with female leads or ACTUAL strong female characters is ridiculous. We had LOTS of them, and they were great, and I don't remember anyone not liking them. But all of these characters had to work, had to struggle, had to fail, and had to keep trying, in order to ultimately win. They EARNED their success.

Today, we have things like Captain Marvel and She Hulk and many other Marvel movies where the women are somehow just strong, powerful, and knowledgeable - "better than all the men" - but are never depicted as earning it or struggling in any way - they're just better because they have a vagina. That's because those scripts aren't being written by show writers, but instead by activists who don't care one bit about the story, only their agenda. And they are perfectly fine destroying the entire entertainment industry to do so.

[GuyAnswersGirls123]

Casting is a large part of it in my opinion at least in the realm of action heroes and martial arts in Hollywood.

Arnie is not an ordinary guy. He's Mr. Olympia. Similar case with Bruce Lee, Jason Statham, Sly, JCVD, Tom Cruise, Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan, even Steven Seagal's snappy and brutal Aikido moves (despite looking a bit lazy) were fresh at the time he made films like Under Siege.

If you want to cast a badass who just kicks butt left and right and it's just a showcase for how great they are, you can't just cast any actor and that's true of both men and women.

But Hollywood often casts little pretty women for these roles who look like they constantly need someone to teach them how to even lift weights let alone jump out of an exploding building.

We don't have this problem here in Asia since Asia casts women the way Hollywood casts men. They have to be exceptional in choreography, physique, charisma, athleticism, very physical comedic timing, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ni70jf_1SSI

You know, there's already a level of suspension of disbelief required for these scenes but we need it anyway to accept the idea that Jet Li can beat up 4 elite MMA fighters bigger than him in a row. We usually accept it.

But you have to ask if any of these pretty women cast for action roles in Hollywood cinema -- like the Brie Larson and Daisey Ridley and Jennifer Lawrence -- can even hold a candle to the likes of Michelle Yeoh, Cynthia Rothrock, Moon Lee, Kara Wai, Yukari Oshima, Kathy Long, Cynthia Khan, etc. etc. etc. (the list goes on and on of badass female action stars in Asian cinema).

[GuyAnswersGirls123]

Kathy Long, you know: casting a world champion kickboxer for an action film.
https://youtu.be/aQ7uw-MXGDM
Maybe she can't actually beat those guys but it's fun to see the choreography regardless, and it's badass. And it's not badass because the writers made her badass; she's legit badass.

[GuyAnswersGirls123]

So to me it's like what they're doing these days if I use a male analogy is casting Timothée Chalamet or Danielle Radcliffe for a role written for Steven Seagal. And if they're not going to fix the writing, then the casting is all so horribly and hopelessly wrong.

[Asker]

In animations, the protagonist is usually a skinny 14-16 year old boy whose opponents are demons, monsters and sorcerers with millennia of experience and knowledge. It wouldn't be realistic at all for a boy to be able to face these opponents, but it's a fantasy, so everyone ignores it. Realism seems to be more important when the protagonist is a woman. A UFC fighter in real life would not be able to defeat dozens of men in a fight, something that actors and actresses do in Asian films. If in a film outside of Asia a UFC fighter defeats 20 men they will say it's not realistic. Which is funny, because not even one male fighter could defeat 20 armed and trained men.

[Berethor]

Most anime creators and fans are nerds, that's why there more skinny boys than men with real fighter physics, that's what I like about Goku and Guts, they look like real fighters. You right that many of the feats are not realistic even for male fighters, but with females they look much more unrealistic.

[GuyAnswersGirls123]

I think there are very different rules for animation, and I'd also point out how many respectable badass female anime characters there are in my country (Japan) without anyone complaining about it. Despite Japan being relatively behind on a lot of gender equality indices like we don't have nearly as many female politicians and business executives, I think we do at least have fiction of a sort where all sorts of people -- men and women alike -- root for badass female protags.

But if we talk about live action, I'd emphasize that there are very different rules. If we cast a live action film with a skinny guy who actually is or at least sounds like a teen who is trying to portray a complete badass like Gatsu from Berserk, I think that will fail so hard in the same sense of casting a female Gatsu if the screenplay was adapted to replace Gatsu with a female protag. Some things just don't work, and especially so in live action.

[Asker]

@Berethor The fact that you assume that it is unrealistic for a man to defeat 20 armed and trained men, but only see a problem when women do so, is a statement of hypocrisy.

[Berethor]

@Asker not hypocrisy, as I said for a woman it more unrealistic, too much of a stretch.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Sexism, that’s the plain and simple of it.


Take Star Wars for example. There are plenty of critiques to be made for each of the movie protagonists and while Rey’s story was essentially a perfect modern mirror of Luke Skywalker’s story, guess which one is responsible for “ruining the franchise?” People don’t think it’s realistic for a woman to easily come into power, at least not when a man is able to do the same thing in a work of fiction.

[Effably]

They are both hated.

The problem with the trope is not that they are capable. It is that they face no challenge and, worse, steal the limelight from other characters in a way that does not further the plot or feel rewarding.

Every character needs flaws. Even if it is something silly like Kryptonite, or being awkward in dating. And similarly every character needs a chance to shine.

A Mary Sue/Gary Stu type has no flaws and takes everyone else's challenge.

E. g Rey from Starwars newer trilogy being good at flying a spaceship is not bad. Her taking that role when the universe's supposed best pilot is next to her and there is no need for her to do so, is. If he was allowed to shine. Drop a few words even such as "You have it in you." And we then discovered she is talented, great! Giving the character that task for no reason other than showing that she is better at something she has never done or learned about when the character who's whole identity it is to be good at that is next to her? Very Mary Sue.

Its not a gender thing. It is in execution.

[Effably]

As for your update: Expectation.

If the selling point of a story is a bloated over the top main character it can work. This is how James Bond or say, Dark Angel to throw back to Jessica Alba kicking butt, works. The framework is that people expect them to excel. Their defining trait is to be superhumanly good.

Similarly if Rey had magically inherited the universe's top tier skills from everyone, her character would make sense.

As for why we see more male characters that are overpowered? Power fantasies are probably assumed to appeal more to men, true or not. Also, most media are a little bad at portraying competent women.

[Flatmanlewis]

Never heard the Gary Stu term but it seems the writers are pretty shallow when it comes to how they define their female characters.


The males are often powerful but also contend with character flaws, learning to harness their power, or damaged as people and struggling to overcome this. Some mentor, often times equally flawed but just more experienced guides their journey. Often times this mentor is wise because of the mistakes they have made.


The female characters are often strong simply because they are women and the little that they must overcome to master their own powers usually revolve around self-doubt or some inability to believe in themselves. Add the nearly prerequisite white male who verbalizes his own doubt and it’s just a boring and predictable story line.


There are some absolutely fascinating female characters written and some amazing source material out there to rely on but these tales aren’t told often, which is kind of a pity.

[TheSpaceGnome]

They aren't, people like or dislike characters based on their personality/character/acting skills.

A lot of female overpowered characters in American movies are portrayed by dull women, in animation though this is not often the case, with animation they frequently hire interesting personalities/good voice actresses.

This wasn't always the case, its a more recent issue, but hollywood as gone downhill in terms of who's running things.

[Anonymous]

The two sexes are called for different things, and they each have their own fantasies.

Mary sue tend to be an insufferable know all and can do all that had never had training and absolutely no flaws at all so no character arc. Neither sex values this type of character.

Dunno what Gary stu is but typically the men have vast natural talent but it needs honing and guiding, they often have a flaw of some kind or a character arc.

[Flatmanlewis]

This is my view of it

[Berethor]

A man being born as the most powerful is possible, while women are weaker than men.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/URz-RYEOaig

[Asker]

I've never seen a man born with super powers.

[Berethor]

No but a hero with heroic build looks powerful, even the power get exaggerated. :)

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Heroic_Build

[Asker]

What stops you from creating female characters with superpowers that are stronger than men? I can create a man with super strength and a woman who manipulates death. What will a man with super strength do against a woman who ignores the concept of death and who can kill anyone with just her will?

[Berethor]

It sounds like a mage, and being a mage is more fitting role for a woman than being a male fighter, because being skinny don't stop a woman from using a magic artillery.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Sword_and_Sorcerer

[laly520]

both r hated
cliches r boring over time

[Anonymous]

Who?