The Friend Zone, Nice Guys, & Incels: Why the First Two Don't Exist & Why Incels are Trash

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Coming from somebody who is a 26 year old virgin, never dated or kissed a girl/woman, I do understand the embarrassment that these so called groups feel. But besides the fact that the first two things in the title technically don't exist, I do emphasize a little. I've done some soul searching & self reflection in regards due to some recent traumatic events & I've come to a few conclusions.

1: Nobody in this worlds owes you anything, no reciprocation of feelings or interest & especially not sex.

2: Nice guys are not truly nice guys, never have been, or ever will be.

I can say this because I used to be one. The same ones who complain about "assholes" who get the girl, are no better themselves. They only go after girls/women they find hot, instead of personality, mutual hobbies/interests, & bringing something of value to the table. If you have nothing to bring to the table, then work on it. Work on bettering yourself that is what I am trying to do & will not enter or try to enter a relationship, until I do, just that.

It is for this, that I believe these Incels are even worse than what I already believed about them. They are hopeless, as they are doing nothing to make their lives better & are in complete denial. I'm not perfect, nobody is. But if you are any of these kind of people, or complain about being in the friend zone & really believe it, you are human garbage, you are not worthy of another human being's affection.

I once was like this, I once wanted everyone's pity, but I'm growing as a person & you should try to as well. This goes to both genders as I've heard both do the same thing. Learn to love yourself & better yourself instead of blaming others.

[Vyxzuw]

So, you were an a-hole that pretended to be a nice guy, and thus think that everyone else claiming to be a nice guy is like you?

First of all, you didn't address your point. Talking about how the friend zone and nice guys don't exist.

The friend zone is used to refer to many things, and thus it causes confusion.
If you have a friend, who is a girl, and they come up to you and say they like you, would you reject them? Obviously it depends on whether you found them attractive. You obviously like their personality, or you wouldn't be friends with them.
Girls, however, will reject a guy they find attractive if they are already friends with them. They will reject someone BECAUSE they are a friend.

Why that is, is that women categorize their relationships. If someone is trying to jump categories, then it throws the woman off. To them, it's deceptive, or it means they categorized you wrong.
They don't consider that a guy can't really know if he likes you unless he knows you. If he likes you before hand, then it was only due to physical reasons. So, a guy can develop feelings and then tell a girl he likes her, and then get rejected.
That's the friend zone.

Nice guys are also a broad category. Some refer to good guys, who get overlooked. (Usually the ones that girls try to set their friends up with.)
While it usually means a guy that doesn't want to offend, and so never let's anyone know who they are. (And are the secret a-holes, that girls do NOT set their friends up with, because they don't really know the guy.)

But yes, there are actual nice guys.
Generally you can tell if a guy is a nice guy by looking at who they are looking for. If they are complaining about how the 'party girls' aren't giving them attention, then they are actually a 'party guy' that is just afraid to admit who they are.
If they are looking for a 'good girl' but complain because they can't find any, then they are a 'nice guy'. And the 'party girl' will see that and set them up with the 'good girl'.
Not for his sake, but for her friend's sake.

Incels are what doesn't exist. There are people that will have sex for money, so anyone can get laid.
Sure, they might not be able to find their perfect partner, but guys that have sex can sometimes not be able to do that.
By labeling themselves incels, they show where their priorities are. And show why noone wants them.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

No I'm genuinely a nice guy, I just unknowingly had behaviours & intentions of being their friend (At first) because I found them attractive. I do have some female friends I don't find attractive & eventually at one point or another the other female friends I connected with on a personal level, they are wonderful women that I share a lot in common with & now I only & only ever will see them as friends.

Yea, you're right I should've elaborated more. I just meant that these labels don't really hold a place in society as everyone should be a nice person & in my opinion the friend zone seems like a made up thing, because if you are attracted to someone you should let them know asap, instead of creating a false front through friendship, like some guys do. (Which is wrong to do.) Everyone get's rejected by people, doesn't mean their in the friend zone. Just my opinion.

As for that incel thing, no I completely agree. The whole basis of their existance, is scary.

[Vyxzuw]

My point is that some guy may not know if they like a person until they get to know them. This can seem like befriending and then switching, but it isn't.
To them, it's just as wrong to pursue someone who you find physically attractive, but not otherwise find attractive, and lead them on and then break up when you want to find someone new. That is just as deceptive.
Even more so, since they are just going after someone because of their looks, rather than developing a relationship that eventually becomes physical.

The issue is that some nice guys will make it seem like they are only interested in being friends, until they aren't.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

That's a pretty fair point, one of the friends I used to have that I found highly attractive, fell in love with her in fact, I hate her personality, she's very two faced & fake, so I know longer feel the same about her anymore & we are no longer friends. Personality is more important than looks, but if the original attraction isn't there. Nothing I can really do about it.

[Benedek38]

"Nobody in this worlds owes you anything, no reciprocation of feelings or interest & especially not sex."
Ugh...
'I deserve a good man!' -> does it ring any bells? Entitlement is not exclusive to men. Therefore there is no point mentioning it.

"Nice guys are not truly nice guys, never have been, or ever will be."
And you know this because you became a hyper-dimensional being, and now you can see the future, and can venture past event horizon. OR maybe you are just an opinionated piece of shit. Who knows?

"I can say this because I used to be one."
So you are guilty! There is nothing better than the guy with the guilty conscience projecting his own insecurities on other people.

"They only go after girls/women they find hot, instead of personality, mutual hobbies/interests, & bringing something of value to the table."
So you are telling me PHYSICAL ATTRACTION IS REQUIRED FOR A RELATIONSHIP? Well, that's some earth shattering discovery there, Sherlock. Yes, people go after people they are attracted to. What you are saying is "lower your standards" - but here's the shocker. Most guys have pretty low standards. Studes show that guys are consistently dealing down in relationships. So yeah. You might have been a pathological case, because you were chasing hot girls. The fact is that most guys are just chasing "girls", and would accept anyone. Usually girls have higher standards. In fact, there is a GAG poll by this exact name: "Who has higher standards: men or women?". Check it out. The conclusion is that women themselves seem conflicted about their own standards.

"If you have nothing to bring to the table, then work on it. Work on bettering yourself that is what I am trying to do & will not enter or try to enter a relationship, until I do, just that."
OK, ask yourself: when was the last time you heard a woman being told to
"work for it".
"get slimmer if she wants that hunk"
"get a job"
"dress more maturely"
"be more elligible for a relationship".
NEVER. This doesn't exist for women. Only guys have to work for it. Doesn't that sound unfair? I only hope to be loved for who I am, and I think I am not worthless by default. I shouldn't have to artificially inflate my value for women to look at me.

[Benedek38]

"It is for this, that I believe these Incels are even worse than what I already believed about them. They are hopeless, as they are doing nothing to make their lives better & are in complete denial."
And you know this because?
Incel is just a person who doesn't get laid because he is unattractive, or because his environment is not suitable for it.
Ultimately, once again, it comes down to this: should men be expected to make the brunt of the work in dating? The way I see it, incels are opting out until better opportunities arise. They might be bitter - who cares. As long as they are not criminals, there is no problem with them, they are no different to MGTOWs. There is nothing wrong with not making an effort in the dating game - most girls don't, and it works out pretty well for them.

[Benedek38]

" I'm not perfect, nobody is. But if you are any of these kind of people, or complain about being in the friend zone & really believe it, you are human garbage, you are not worthy of another human being's affection."
So much anger... Something about glass houses and stones...

[DeadRosesWithWine]

You're the exact kind of person that this post was aimed towards, it's ironic that you don't see that. There's tons of cases of men that are super unattractive that have women leagues & bounds ahead of them, not just celebrities, not just rich people. Hence why I brought up the "bring something else to the table." If you're not willing to improve yourself, then you don't deserve to be in a relationship. This was aimed at both genders as I hear both parties complain about the same things. Stop arguing over pedantics & realize nobody is better than one another & work on fixing yourself & your problems. Geez & you talk about me projecting. lol

[Benedek38]

"work on fixing yourself & your problems."
You assume that I have a problem. That it is MY problem I am single, and that it IS a problem in the first place.
What if I told you that I am content with myself, I am not looking for a relationship right now, and I replied purely because I think you are a cunt with a guilty conscience?

[Benedek38]

Also, I love how you think you invented the best thing since bread and butter.
"Lower your standards, have no expectations, improve yourself"
These are the 3 most basic shit that self-help websites tell you. The fact that you neeeded 26 years to realise this is kind of sad. Most people catch up after their first rejection.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Well, then I think you misunderstand. I simply made this post to hopefully inspire others to see their errors of their ways. Like I've said to other people before, i didn't end friendships or act like a giant manchild after being rejected, all women who I was interested that rejected me are still my friends are are friendships are still has close as they have ever been.

and I'm content being single as well.

I'm not going to go into or try & attempt one until I feel I am ready/confident with myself, there's many goals I want to meet before doing so.

Hopefully this'll put more insight as to why I made this post & for future reference you'll read into what people post on here, with more of an open mind. I'm not one who prefers to argue/debate, but I will if need be.

[Benedek38]

"Well, then I think you misunderstand. I simply made this post to hopefully inspire others to see their errors of their ways."
OK, I can accept that. Just know that anybody with a more han 3 bit IQ knows this stuff. You won't find anybody who facepalms, and just goes "THIS GUY GETS IT! All this time, I was attracted to hot chicks while being a fat slob! Time to work out, learn poetry, and woo 5/10 chicks!"

[Benedek38]

[1] I will say something though that might make you think differently.
I was where you say you are since I was freaking 17. I had missteps, I had bad decisions, but overall, I knew what I was worth, I wanted to improve myself, I had vaguely defined goals in terms of dating too.
First of all, I am young. Really young. You can see my age. I am still in university, learning engineering. Thus, currently, my "sexual market value" is practically zero - I don't have a job, I don’t have time to party, I don’t even have the time or the money to spend on my appearance, buy attractive clothes, etc. Sure, when I will get a job as an engineer, I will probably be a great catch – high salary, plus I work out.
But at the end of the day, you still long for some affection.
You know, I am still a grown man, I still long for a woman by my side, I still want to hold her non-exist body, I want something. An anchor to sanity, a beacon of compassion and love.

[Benedek38]

[2]And I think it is thoroughly fucked up that we live in a world where you can’t really win – if you want to have a long term relationship from your early 20s, you have to either be rich, or you have to work. But then you forfeit your ability to a career. If you want a stable career and family in your late 20s, early 30s – you need a valuable degree. But that doesn’t give you money, and unless you have an angel-face, chicks probably won’t see you as „worthy”.
And don’t think I don’t see 19-24 year old student chicks hanging out with either older guys, or guys who work for a nice sum of money, and can give them the security they look for. Now, call me crazy, but these girls don’t really have anything to offer on their own, other than the fact that they are easy. So isn’t the system a bit unfair? I get a maybe-reward years later for my hard work and dedication–IF I don’t become a bitter MGTOW in the process -, and the chicks investing the same work, or even less, get pampered by society

[Benedek38]

Now fast forward 5 years. I am your age. I have a job as an engineer. I am relatively successful. Do you know who I will be able to date?
THAT’S RIGHT! Either the chicks who are my age, and had a hundred dicks ran through them, or 19 year old college freshmen. So I have to choose between women who have infinitely more experience than me sexually, and thus are not attracted to me most likely – or Miss Daddy Issues, who I was on a similar mental level 5 years earlier.
Where is the benefit? Should I just quit college, do physical labour, and be happy with a shitty salary, but at least a loving wife? Or should I participate in this never-ending power struggle where I can never get who I am interested in, just who is interested in me? Seems like the system needs fixing. Usually there is a problem when hard work is rewarded with suckage.

I know I sound bitter, but I am fine. I just wanted to show you that just because you can temporarily solve an issue, it doesn't mean there is no issue.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

You do sound better, but if you say you're fine, that's good then. I hope you are then.

As for why I didn't learn this sooner. I've been a hermit my whole life. I used to hate people & didn't trust anybody, I didn't get into the idea of dating or all that until march of 2017, then I started to befriend new people, make new friends, etc.

Also I'm willing to admit, I'm quite immature for somebody of my age, due to me being on the autistic spectrum somewhere. So I'd say emotionally I'm around 16-17 years old.

Over the past year I've basically went through emotional barriers that a 17 year old would have to go through, since I never went through them. (Gotta learn sometime, and later is better than never.)

I don't think it's fair, what you are saying. To place numerical value on a female, yes I understand the point behind it, but I think you're wrong & both me & you will find that person we both want in our lives.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

"Bitter"

[DeadRosesWithWine]

For the past week or so I'm talking to this beautiful redhead on snapchat. (She's only 19, but she's into older guys.) There's days even, where she hits me up first. This girl is out of my league, most likely.

Maybe I just got lucky, maybe it isn't going to lead anywhere, but believe it or not this defeatist attitude you have, whether you say you're fine or not, women call tell that you have it.

I'm happy with just making female friends, because one day when I am farther in life & these women will still be absolutely beautiful & maybe one of them will be more into me, I'll have a beautiful woman that not only is beautiful but we'll have stuff in common.

You're too negative, believe me, not just for dating, but life in general that is not a good mindset to have. It makes people uncomfortable, it makes people not want to be around you, etc. Learn to enjoy the little things man.

[youtoo]

Great take! It's very refreshing to see people transforming for the better 🔥👏😃

Nice guys CAN change: look at the example that you used, yourself!

Give yourself the credit that you deserve. It's difficult to change and you've already made incredible progress. You had a paradigm shift! I'm in a period of change and transformation myself, so hearing about other people's success really motivates me!

Take care, and never stop ☁💖

[DeadRosesWithWine]

I would give myself the credit I deserve, but I don't feel I deserve it. My behaviour made me lose someone that I care deeply for, even as a friend & my heart is completely broken. I don't know how long it will take to forgive myself, but in the meantime until I improve myself I think I really do hate myself.

[youtoo]

I'm so sorry. I've gone through periods of self recrimination myself, but focusing on positively improving myself deeply impacted my self confidence in the best way possible, helping me to let go of a lot of regret, and I'm sure that you will too <3

[Prankster13]

I don't think you were actually a nice guy. But I do think nice guys exist. I also know the friend zone exists. I have never heard if incels before though.
In highschool I was a nice guy, and I was friends with a not nice guy. I think I was actually nice, and I liked girls who had similar interests as me and who I felt comfortable around. But I always got friend zoned. Because they thought I was being friendly. I was too shy at the time to correct them.
He was not a nice guy. They did not friend zone him because he was direct. They either dated him or rejected him. Simple.

But nice guys and the friend zone are very real. I am not sure why you think they aren't.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

I think you might be half right/half wrong on this. While it's true, that I initially only befriend some of these women because I'm interested in them, I don't flip out & overreact when I'm rejected.

I don't agree with the term "Nice Guy" because we should all be decent human beings & as for the friend zone, really think about it. If a girl isn't interested in you, that's it. She not into you, what? You want her to end your friendship, because she isn't into you?

That's just my opinion though. Hope what I just commented makes more sense.

[Prankster13]

Oh I didn't end the friendship, I actually wanted to be friends before developing feelings for them. And still was afterwards, just a bit awkwardly.
Also, yes you are right. The friend zone can only exist if you don't terminate the friendship after being shoved back into it. If you do this then you just rejected her friendship, and you left on your own, and propbably aren't a super nice guy.
But also yes we should all be nice people. Nice is underrated in today's world.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

I would never end a friendship, just because they don't have the same feelings as I do. One of my best friends rejected me not so long ago & she's now in a relationship & still my best friend, we talk almost every day. I love her to pieces (As a friend) :)

[Prankster13]

Yes that's what I meant. The biggest misconception about the friend zone is that it is such a bad thing. So you lost the possibility of a romantic partner that was never even really there to begin with. But you still have a good friend. Who doesn't want friends? Man, I need more friends. I just realized I have literally three, and they are all guys. I have not been very outgoing recently, apparently...

[lernulo]

I think your instrospection goes in a good way, but you must improve more.

1. Nice guys are not truly nice guys, never have been, or ever will be -> In fact its an avatar, not a real personality, but to quit that avatar, you must be yourself (and it means, discover who you really are)

My advice to that point which in my opinion is the most important of what you said comes from Lao Tse.

"Everything comes from being, except the being which comes from not being"

It means that you must empty everything which makes you look like a nice guy (I said look like, because its an avatar not a real form) and get free of them, and after to fill the gap with the essence of who you really are.

Its the real meaning of the sentece: "be yourself"

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Psychology is not my strong suit, so I appreciate you being able to explain my post better than I can. I truly am as women have said to their other female friends. A sweet & genuine/honest guy.

I just always go after looks first, then personality comes later. If I don't like their personality we usually are no longer friends. I'm still friends with women who have rejected me & our friendships are just as strong as they were when they started.

I was just too overly nice where it became that avatar as you said of a "nice guy". Being me 100% is always the way to go.

[lilaqua]

I think the greatest example of a "nice guy" or "incel" was on Degrassi Next Gen, in the form of Rick. Was the one that conducted the school shooting funnily enough. Yes he's probably a bit extreme of an example, but the whole "why don't women like me" comes entirely from his abhorrent personality. The guy is super attractive too, great actor.

[Pamina]

It's always good to see that guys like you, who have been in such situations but didn't give in to the bitterness and misogyny, do exist. Your capability of self-examination is what they lack.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Thank you.

[azzntittiz]

Elliot Rodgers was rich, handsome and educated but he was a creep, something about him makes you want to take a shower. You're right he called himself a nice guy and still harmed innocent people in a shooting rampage, so nice guys aren't really nice, just entitled and lazy. I'm glad you're doing your reflection, I hope you find a nice girl to marry, and teach your son how to be a man like you.

[Pamina]

You're right. Elliot Rodgers actually debunks the claim of many incels and other misogynists that most women are gold diggers and/or super shallow. This Rodgers psycho could have had it all, if he wasn't such an unbearable pieace of shit.

[azzntittiz]

@Pamina Men need to understand that women have a radar that goes off when you mean us no good, for those of us who ignore it we end up being harmed, sometimes dead. They have to start with having good intentions first, that will also change their energy.

[Pamina]

I for one am very glad that my creep radar is fully functional.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Thank you girls, for your input. I'm glad I made the right decision & here's to hoping it's not too late, I lost a love interest due to how I used to act & now me & her are not friends anymore & I'm devastated. You're positive words help, more than you know.

[azzntittiz]

All the best to you baby.

[Anonymous]

Labelling people as trash, pieces of shit or anything else serves no purpose other than strengthening the ego of the person that labelled them.

labelling them as hopeless again does the same. This is an ego trap and so many of us fall for it. Beware because this can be detrimental to all growth.

[NerdInDenial]

The feeling of entitlement actually makes sense if you think about how society operates. Are people entitled to another person’s money? Of course not, but things like welfare exist. People who work essentially give people money. Rich people are the bad guys and owe it to the poor. Should abortion be free? Why, well because of reasons. So, it’s not surprising eventually even sex can become an entitlement issue.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

I disagree. Welfare doesn't just go to anybody, there's a lot of variables that are considered, like if they are still working, are disabled, etc. welfare doesn't go to homeless bums, now does it? I don't really know about the whole abortion thing, so bringing my opinion on that wouldn't be wise for me to talk about. But I still believe nobody in this world owes you anything, especially not sex. It shouldn't ever be an entitlement issue. If someone is so desperate for that, then go buy a prostitute.

[NerdInDenial]

It actually does if you go to San Francisco. More importantly, people don’t owe poor people right? But somehow we do.

[NewYear-NewMe]

Yeah I used to be that guy who expected things from women and blamed them for why I wasn’t in a relationship, instead of recognizing the real issue.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

That's good, self reflection is the first step to the right path. Good luck to you man.

[NewYear-NewMe]

Well I’ve been stuck at that first step for a while now lol. Thanks man

[Goodwifie]

Mate that's one of the biggest steps to take 👍.
Keep it up.

[NewYear-NewMe]

@Goodwifie but how will it get me anywhere?

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Bettering yourself for yourself is always good, it'll lead to you being a more interesting human being, which will give you more redeemable traits & you'll find a partner through that one day, hopefully.

[lsaiah]

Nice guy is only another word for loser

[DeadRosesWithWine]

I completely agree. Every person regardless if you are looking for a relationship or not should be a nice person/good person. If you are only "nice" to somebody in hopes of getting a relationship or getting laid. You are not a good person. If you are ugly & can't get a girl, then you should have other redeeming qualities. I''ve seen some questionable looking men with absolutely beautiful women, I've seen ugly girls with men who look like models. It's about having things about you that are interesting. A good paying job, being funny, confidence, etc.

[Anonymous]

Incels are single because they're too demanding.

[DeadRosesWithWine]

Exactly. That and they're pieces of shit in general.

[Opinion Owner]

Not 'good enough ' for your sister?

[DeadRosesWithWine]

They're not good enough for anybody... period.

[Kandy-Kane]

Interesting

[CT_CD]

Interesting myTake

[Anonymous]

Good take!